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Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:12 PM

Hitler was not a leftist

National Socialism had nothing to do with what we term Socialism.

Hitler was a Fascist. National Socialism was/is a Fascist, extreme Right ideology.

Very briefly, and very simplistically:

Nazism used elements of the far-right racist Völkisch German nationalist movement and the anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture which fought against the communists in post-World War I Germany. It was designed to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism. Major elements of Nazism have been described as far-right, such as allowing domination of society by people deemed racially superior, while purging society of people declared inferior which were said to be a threat to national survival.


This has NOTHING to do with any gun stuff, but I just read a post made today stating that yes, Hitler was a Leftist. It was not connected to a gun OP in any way.

That is BS. Anyone who says that either really needs to study up on Nazi (even just watch the Military History Channel or read Wikipedia), or they have an agenda.

Hitler was the First Teabagger. Got that? He was extreme Right. All current Nazis also are.

198 replies, 11333 views

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Reply Hitler was not a leftist (Original post)
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 OP
Maeve Jan 2013 #1
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #2
ellisonz Jan 2013 #5
AntiFascist Jan 2013 #176
greatauntoftriplets Jan 2013 #3
Lars39 Jan 2013 #4
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #7
caveat_imperator Jan 2013 #101
Luminous Animal Jan 2013 #115
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #6
AntiFascist Jan 2013 #178
patrice Jan 2013 #8
pnwmom Jan 2013 #12
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #13
stevenleser Jan 2013 #98
patrice Jan 2013 #14
ellisonz Jan 2013 #36
pnwmom Jan 2013 #135
MH1 Jan 2013 #165
kwijybo Jan 2013 #102
brush Jan 2013 #124
MH1 Jan 2013 #168
pnwmom Jan 2013 #136
kwijybo Jan 2013 #197
brewens Jan 2013 #9
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #10
ladym55 Jan 2013 #11
magellan Jan 2013 #15
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #16
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #17
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #19
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #21
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #156
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #18
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #106
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #148
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #155
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #157
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #158
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #171
Xithras Jan 2013 #62
ellisonz Jan 2013 #65
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #105
Xithras Jan 2013 #133
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #143
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #149
AntiFascist Jan 2013 #179
Notafraidtoo Jan 2013 #142
leveymg Jan 2013 #153
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #20
freshwest Jan 2013 #134
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #22
Liberal_Stalwart71 Jan 2013 #23
Turbineguy Jan 2013 #24
ginnyinWI Jan 2013 #25
Wounded Bear Jan 2013 #26
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #27
tblue Jan 2013 #28
TDale313 Jan 2013 #29
Jamaal510 Jan 2013 #30
ErikJ Jan 2013 #31
louis-t Jan 2013 #160
obama2terms Jan 2013 #166
Democratopia Jan 2013 #32
Lars39 Jan 2013 #34
Democratopia Jan 2013 #41
Lars39 Jan 2013 #44
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #51
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #46
TahitiNut Jan 2013 #86
stevenleser Jan 2013 #99
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #35
Democratopia Jan 2013 #42
gollygee Jan 2013 #45
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #48
sibelian Jan 2013 #144
ellisonz Jan 2013 #38
Democratopia Jan 2013 #43
ellisonz Jan 2013 #49
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #52
ellisonz Jan 2013 #54
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #58
sibelian Jan 2013 #145
Rex Jan 2013 #167
nuxvomica Jan 2013 #33
War Horse Jan 2013 #174
ReRe Jan 2013 #37
ellisonz Jan 2013 #39
Democratopia Jan 2013 #50
ellisonz Jan 2013 #55
gollygee Jan 2013 #59
ellisonz Jan 2013 #68
sibelian Jan 2013 #146
Democratopia Jan 2013 #47
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #53
gollygee Jan 2013 #57
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #63
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #64
gollygee Jan 2013 #66
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #67
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #69
ellenfl Jan 2013 #56
earthside Jan 2013 #74
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #80
Luminous Animal Jan 2013 #100
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #116
Luminous Animal Jan 2013 #120
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #121
Luminous Animal Jan 2013 #122
Fantastic Anarchist Jan 2013 #191
Fantastic Anarchist Jan 2013 #192
Fantastic Anarchist Jan 2013 #190
ellenfl Jan 2013 #159
ReRe Jan 2013 #84
TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #175
Luminous Animal Jan 2013 #89
Fantastic Anarchist Jan 2013 #188
gollygee Jan 2013 #40
Violet_Crumble Jan 2013 #60
Brother Buzz Jan 2013 #61
Democratopia Jan 2013 #70
ellisonz Jan 2013 #71
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #72
Democratopia Jan 2013 #75
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #77
Democratopia Jan 2013 #83
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #85
Luminous Animal Jan 2013 #90
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #78
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #73
Notafraidtoo Jan 2013 #141
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #194
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #76
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #79
ellisonz Jan 2013 #81
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #82
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #87
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #150
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #151
Democratopia Jan 2013 #88
ellisonz Jan 2013 #91
Democratopia Jan 2013 #92
ellisonz Jan 2013 #94
Democratopia Jan 2013 #127
ellisonz Jan 2013 #132
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply .
REP Jan 2013 #137
ellisonz Jan 2013 #138
Rex Jan 2013 #180
Maeve Jan 2013 #93
Democratopia Jan 2013 #128
sibelian Jan 2013 #147
Maeve Jan 2013 #152
gollygee Jan 2013 #95
Luminous Animal Jan 2013 #97
KG Jan 2013 #96
stevenleser Jan 2013 #103
nytemare Jan 2013 #104
NYC Liberal Jan 2013 #154
FlyDaddy145 Jan 2013 #107
Lars39 Jan 2013 #108
FlyDaddy145 Jan 2013 #110
ellisonz Jan 2013 #111
Lars39 Jan 2013 #118
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #117
Democratopia Jan 2013 #129
Democratopia Jan 2013 #131
ohheckyeah Jan 2013 #113
JaneyVee Jan 2013 #119
ohheckyeah Jan 2013 #140
Democratopia Jan 2013 #130
ohheckyeah Jan 2013 #139
tclambert Jan 2013 #109
ellisonz Jan 2013 #114
Democratopia Jan 2013 #125
AceWheeler Jan 2013 #112
Snarkoleptic Jan 2013 #123
truebluegreen Jan 2013 #189
Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #126
santamargarita Jan 2013 #161
99Forever Jan 2013 #162
War Horse Jan 2013 #163
Rex Jan 2013 #164
samsingh Jan 2013 #169
John2 Jan 2013 #170
andym Jan 2013 #172
TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #173
Kennah Jan 2013 #177
SunSeeker Jan 2013 #181
Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2013 #182
steve2470 Jan 2013 #183
Fantastic Anarchist Jan 2013 #184
NewJeffCT Jan 2013 #185
Courtesy Flush Jan 2013 #186
davesliberal1977_gg Jan 2013 #187
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #193
Taverner Jan 2013 #195
Third Doctor Jan 2013 #196
burnsei sensei Jan 2013 #198

Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:15 PM

1. The Nazi party stood it opposition to the Communists

Work that one out and you'll realize this OP is correct.

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Response to Maeve (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:16 PM

2. Thank you!

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Response to Maeve (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 04:28 PM

176. Yes...

and the Nazi Party was initially funded by industrialists who feared the spread of Marxism in the post-depression world, where capitalism was falling out of favor.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:17 PM

3. My cousins who lived under Nazi occupation would agree with you.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:17 PM

4. Saw that.

Immediate ppr should be the result, imo.

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #4)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:27 PM

7. I read it, and literally said



And then wrote the OP. Hitler and the Nazis tortured and killed all Leftists, and modern Nazis would sure as hell want to.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #7)


Response to caveat_imperator (Reply #101)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:41 PM

115. This is way over the top. I think there are some teabaggers who

engage in eliminationist rhetoric to advance the goals of the fascist organization ALEC, but I sincerely doubt the vast majority of middle-aged and elderly doughy teabagger entertains the thought of going on a murderous rampage against liberals. Oh I am sure many are quick to get red in the face and shake their weak fists at the thought of libbbbruls taking over the country but then there is Toddlers In Tiaras and The Shopping Network and it is all good.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:26 PM

6. Nazism is a far-right ideology. Socialism is a misnomer, like the Democratic Republic of Congo

Which is neither democratic or a republic. Misnomers are quite common in history. But yes, Nazism is on the far-right spectrum.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #6)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 04:41 PM

178. It was also Goebbel's propaganda...

they wanted to appeal to businessmen and the working class who were stressed out by capitalism and were considering adopting socialism as an alternative that would allow them to prosper. Fascism was promoted as a "Third Way" that would give them freedom from the "evil" bankers, without having to worry about their capital being plundered by the state.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:28 PM

8. wow. Thanks for catching that obamanut2012!

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Response to patrice (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:37 PM

12. Where did s/he find it? I haven't heard that meme. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:42 PM

13. In backswoodsbob's deleted OP in GD

He wasn't the poster who said it. Since this isn't Meta, I don;t feel comfortable providing a direct link.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:07 PM

98. I tried alerting on that and someone beat me to it. nt

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:44 PM

14. She could crosspost the link, but I'm not surprised. Lots of people don't know what

the word "socialist" means and, then, references to political demographics in Europe do not use the same labels as in the U.S.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:42 PM

36. This is the referred post:

Hitler was a lefty - Nazi means National Socialist. I don't think it fair to dismiss the OP

because you don't agree with things he has posted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022181964#post50


Googling "Hitler leftist" will turn up a crap load of right-wing material.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #36)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:44 AM

135. Wow. Why am I ever surprised at stupidity, though?

It's rampant.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #36)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:18 PM

165. Poster was PPR'd. I'm glad it showed its true colors flagrantly enough for MIRT to notice.

I pegged it from the first post by it that I noticed. The screen name should've been a clue, too.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:15 PM

102. The meme has been all over the nutcase right

I seem to recall they attributed it to Ann Coulter, first.

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Response to kwijybo (Reply #102)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 12:38 AM

124. Guess they ditched history class . . .

. . . when Europe in the '30s and WWll was taught. God! I remember all the teabagger signs during the '08 campaign. One would call Obama a socialist and the one right next to it would call him a nazi. Some would call him both, and they still haven't learned the difference/

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Response to brush (Reply #124)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:21 PM

168. Most right-wingers I know, were never big on school in general.

I know there's some of the pundit types that actually went to college and even got advanced degrees, but I think it's even been shown that right-wingers have a lower average educational level than liberals and moderates. And the ones I know personally? Seem to subscribe to a 'culture of dumb'.

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Response to kwijybo (Reply #102)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:44 AM

136. Welcome to DU, kwijybo! n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #136)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 07:29 PM

197. Thanks!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:31 PM

9. Tell any racist half-wit that calls Nazis leftist to check out what American

Nazis say. There is nothing left about any of that stuff. I just watched "Roots The Next Generations" awhile back and was amazed at this scene.

http://www.youtube.com/verify_controversy?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DS-xfeVN25i0

Apologies for the channel this takes you to. There are some real dirtbags commenting there.

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Response to brewens (Reply #9)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:35 PM

10. +1

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:37 PM

11. This should be a no sh*t Sherlock moment

However so many people are so badly informed on history and Hitler is the go-to analogy for anyone and everyone these days that we will hear such misinformation. Sigh.

Hitler was a fascist, which is the opposite of a communist. Hitler killed communists. We all need to study our history, especially right-wing gasbags who make bad Hitler analogies almost daily.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:46 PM

15. I've seen this argument over and over from Teabagger types

Their ignorance is intractable. But anyone who has more than a passing interest in that period knows the truth. I've watched dozens of newsreels and read many papers from that time. The Nazi party was always referred to as the right, and even the far right. Never was the word leftist or socialist used.

On top of that Hitler killed people from the left. Communists, liberals, socialists, educated people, they were all a threat to his power. The biggest underground resistance group in Nazi Germany was made up of socialists. REAL socialists.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:53 PM

16. They stole the name socialist for their party for popular appeal.

They were 100% friends of finance and capitalism. Hitler and Hearst were chummy.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #16)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:55 PM

17. True, and Bush's granddaddy Prescott helped fund the Nazi's.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:56 PM

19. Jinx!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:59 PM

21. Great minds...

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #17)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 11:53 AM

156. Yep. Lots of complicity over here.

Many others, like Chase and DuPont were financing fascist groupings in the US too. I'm so glad I wasn't alive then, just reading about how close the ultraconservative wing of capital was to destroying the planet is chilling.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #16)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:56 PM

18. AS he was with Ford, Prescott Bush, IBM

Remember, the Nazis used IBM's technology to process prisoners at all their KZs.

And, of course, all the German companies, like Hugo Boss and the rest.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:24 PM

106. Exactly, huge private industries supported the Nazis.

Krupp too I think.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #106)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 08:50 AM

148. Yes, but NOT Krup

The coffee grinder people. They take pains to make sure people know that!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #148)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 11:40 AM

155. Correct!

I wonder if they ever considered changing their name anyway.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #155)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 11:56 AM

157. Hugo Boss didn't, and they made uniforms for the SS

Disgusting.

You would think Krup would just to disassociate themselves from the Nazis.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #157)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 12:12 PM

158. I certainly would have changed it.

Why would you want to have to constantly explain a hideous association?


Hugo Boss used slave labor in their factories to make the uniforms too. They only just weakly apologized in 2011. Unbelievable. X(

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #158)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 03:10 PM

171. I know, because CRACKED.com did an article on them

And, it made it's way onto social media because of that. They suck.

And, they made SS uniforms, not just Wehrmacht.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #16)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:06 PM

62. No, Hitler was anti-capitalist.

The Nazi's use of the word "socialist" is a bit more complicated than most people get, and it's not a subject that's usually covered in high school or mass market versions of WW2 history.

In a nutshell: Hitler was simultaneously anti-communist, and anti-capitalist. He openly and repeatedly slammed Marxist socialism and communism because he strongly believed in protecting private property and rejected class distinctions entirely. At the same time, he strenuously rejected capitalism, stating repeatedly that it concentrated too much power into the hands of private citizens, and gave banks and international traders (and, according to him, Jewish people) too much influence over the operations of government. In fact, there are plenty of records of him slamming capitalism itself as a "Jewish creation", while arguing that it needed to be destroyed.

That's why he invented "National Socialism". He wanted to wed the fascist ideals of authoritarian nationalism with the borrowed socialist concept of the centralized planned economy. His actual economic goal was to set up a nation that respected private property and private industry, while simultaneously placing it under strict centralized control to make sure that it operated for the benefit of the Reich. Basically, you could make a profit, but only if Germany profited at the same time. If you wanted to profit at the EXPENSE of the nation or people, you'd end up in front of a firing squad.

Hitlers proposed economic system was one of the reasons that he initially had so much appeal in Germany. It attracted both right wingers, and soft middle class leftists who wanted more government control over the economy but did not want to put their own wealth, jobs, or economic opportunities at risk. Both Hitler and Mussolini marketed themselves to their peoples by promising them a "third way" that wasn't communism, and wasn't capitalism, but was a hybrid of the two.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #62)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:11 PM

65. ^^^^

This

Hitler was a fascist, anything else is inaccurate.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #62)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:22 PM

105. Then why were the Nazis in bed with large corporations?

Fascism is centralized capitalist control of the government. Hitler was the front man for high finance. Socialism had nothing to do with it. It was just the bait that hooked populist sentiment.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #105)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 01:33 AM

133. Hitler himself once said "The basic feature of our economic theory is that we have no theory at all"

That's probably the most truthful statement he ever made as the leader of Germany.

Hitlers writings, and more importantly the writings Nazi's like Goebbels and even some of the Nazi economic ministers who survived the war, have still made it fairly clear that they saw existing major private corporations as a means to an end. Their end game, had they won the war, was to nationalize companies they saw as "essential" to the government, and to allow the remainder to operate freely so long as they played within the rules. The Nazi's didn't have a problem with companies making a profit, but they had to be profitable for the Nazi's too, and more importantly, were not allowed to do anything that ran counter to the "ideals" of German nationalism. They were strong backers of mercantilism, and believed that foreign trade positions should be determined by military might, and not by a bunch of corporations negotiating treaties.

As for the statement, "Hitler was the front man for high finance"....well, I don't know how to respond to that other than to tell you to read up a bit more on it. Hitler regularly and forcibly condemned "high finance" and western capitalism as a Jewish conspiracy to control the world through its banks and banking institutions, a position that is STILL parroted by Neo-Nazi groups today. He seemed to genuinely believe that international banking and corporations were part of some Jewish plot to make national governments subservient to their will. He opposed it because it saw capitalism as weakening the German state (because capitalists are typically more worried about their money than their nation), AND because he hated everything he percieved as "Jewish".

Of course, we have to keep in mind that we're trying to assign logic to the plans and statements of a man and party who were only consistent at being contradictory and illogical. Hitler, at various points in his leadership, accused BOTH the Marxists and the Capitalists of being Jewish conspirators. Third Position Economics, the economic theory pushed by the WW2 fascists, is fairly consistent with that inconsistency.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #133)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:26 AM

143. I've read up Xithras.

I know what Hitler said. I'm also a Communist. The Nazis were supported by world-wide finance capital and the ruling classes in the US and Europe until it became clear that they wanted to do much more than destroy the USSR.


"We stand for the maintenance of private property. We shall protect private enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible, economic order." (Speech in 1926.)

"Our adopted term 'Socialist' has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not." (1930)

"I absolutely insist on protecting private property... we must encourage private initiative." (1942)

This article gives a better summary of what I'm saying:

"There is a close and often ignored relationship between fascism and capitalism. German corporations financed Hitler's rise to power and were rewarded by slave labor. Krupp, I.G. Farben and other corporations used Jewish and Slavic slave labor. Alfred Krupp called girl babies born to his slaves "useless feeders" because they were not as strong a potential worker as were boy babies. These girl babies were gassed.

American corporations invested heavily in Nazi Germany, and many like General Motors and Ford had factories there, which also used slave labor and produced war materials for the Nazis. US corporate investment in Germany accelerated rapidly after Hitler came to power. Investment increased 48.5% between 1929 and 1940, while declining in the rest of continental Europe. American bombers deliberately avoided hitting these US factories, and they received compensation from the American taxpayer for any damage after the war. US oil companies sold oil to the Nazis and oil on credit to the fascists in Spain.

Many American capitalists were openly sympathetic to the Nazis. Henry Ford wrote a book called The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem, and he is mentioned in Mein Kampf. James Mooney, the General Motors executive in charge of European operations, was awarded the Order of Merit of the Golden Eagle by Adolph Hitler. There were op-ed pieces by Nazis like Hermann Goehring in Hearst newspapers in the United States.

The Nazis broke unions, lowered wages, abolished overtime pay, decreased business taxes and increased business subsidies."

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Capitalism_Fascism_WW2.html

"The Peril of Fascism" by Magil is a better source but isn't digital, unfortunately.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #133)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 08:50 AM

149. Hitker was absolutely NOT anti capitalist

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Response to Xithras (Reply #133)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 04:58 PM

179. Keep in mind...

the Nazis came to power in a post-depression world, when many began to feel that capitalism was on the wrong path. There were also fascist movements taking root in the US. Watching the film "J. Edgar", you can see how early the anti-communist movement began.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #62)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 04:19 AM

142. Excellent post N/T

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Response to Xithras (Reply #62)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 09:16 AM

153. No, Hitler welcomed money from bankers and industrialists, both German and international

capitalists -- including Brown Bros. Harriman's Prescott Bush and Herbert Walker, Governor of the Bank of England Sir Montagu Norman, and various industrialists (Henry Ford, the DuPont family, and Standard Oil, etc. ) -- funneled millions of dollars to the fledgling Nazi Party through wealthy Right-wing German capitalists such as Fritz Thyssen. The Wall Street law firm of Sullivan and Cromwell headed by the Dulles Bros. has a major role in laundering that money and coordinating the rearmament of Germany.

It wasn't all business -- these wealthy bankers, businessmen and lawyers knew they were helping to build Hitler -- as the correspondence, investigations and published findings of the American Ambassador in Berlin William E. Dodd, and Secretary of the Treasury's Morganthau made clear at the time and after WWII.

See, Banking With Hitler that focuses on the British and Americans who bankrolled the rise of the Third Reich:



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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #20)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 01:58 AM

134. Ah, I haven't seen a Steve Kangas link in a long time. Thanks.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:59 PM

22. Hitler and his followers and all RWers from then until today are

AUTHORITARIANS. They demand complete submission to THE LAW, even when the law is immoral or downright evil.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:00 PM

23. I blame us liberals for not hitting back against this dribble!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:05 PM

24. Well yeah

but the wingnuts can't say, "Obama's just like us!" So history has to change.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:06 PM

25. A handy chart showing the differences

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Fascism

I was looking for one I had in Soc class but didn't find one. It was a line graph with Nazism on the far right side and Communism on the far left side, and then other parties in the middle, like Democratic and Republican and others.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:10 PM

26. One of the things Hitler did when he took office....

was abolish all trade unions.

Yeah, a real leftist there.

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #26)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:11 PM

27. +1

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:17 PM

28. Damn straight, Hitler is FAR FAR RIGHT, but one question:

Did somebody on DU say Hitler was a Leftoe?

Edited to say, I was gonna fix that typo but I kinda like it.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:23 PM

29. Absolutely.

The "Hitler was a leftist" is RW revisionist "history". Sadly, too many of those who only get their news from Fox and RW talk radio will buy it.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:24 PM

30. Matt Drudge just made himself sound like both a con-man and a drooling buffoon.

If I recall correctly, both Hitler and Stalin were on opposite extremes of the political spectrum. At least if the right-wing wants to slander Obama, they should keep their story straight about what they want to portray him as. It's impossible to be on BOTH ends of the spectrum.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:28 PM

31. 14 Signs of Fascism

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

From Liberty Forum http://rense.com/general37/char.htm

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Response to ErikJ (Reply #31)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:02 PM

160. Thanks, saved again in case I

can't find the other times I've saved it. This is powerful information. It defines the repug party. It's like a laundry list of republican goals.

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Response to ErikJ (Reply #31)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:18 PM

166. Hmmm I wonder which party sounds most similar to this

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:31 PM

32. No point in me giving my opinion on this thread, because if I don't agree I will be blocked.

 

Just been banned from a thread after defending another poster who had made over 4000 posts. Apparently, I cannot give my opinion on these forums on the subject of this thread. It is like trying to have a conversation with far right Republicans. Can't give an opinion without being told to shut up.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #32)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:38 PM

34. Your post calling Hitler a leftist was hidden because it was a false statement denigrating those

here on the left.

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #34)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:50 PM

41. Oh well, let's all agree with the OP. No room for any other opinions here.

 

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #41)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:54 PM

44. Refute with facts from a reputable source and all will be well.

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #44)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:59 PM

51. I know, it really is simple, isn't it?

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #41)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:54 PM

46. Because I am 100% right

Links to show Hitler was Leftist? Dying to see them -- I even just make some .

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #41)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:34 PM

86. Please learn to distinguish between FACTS and opinions.

Please.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #41)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:11 PM

99. You are wrong. Just ask NeoNazis what they believe. They have webpages that explain it all.

They are not communists or socialists. They believe in private property and private ownership of businesses. The same goes for Hitler and the original Nazis. Nothing they were about resembles Socialism.

The only people trying to push the assertion that Nazism = Socialism are right wingers attempting to revise history.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #32)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:40 PM

35. You can have your own opinions, but not your own facts

It is a fact Hitler was NOT a Leftist.

Please give facts showing that he was.


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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #35)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:51 PM

42. We can't have a two-way discussion, because those that don't agree are censored.

 

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #42)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:54 PM

45. Those who claim false right wing propaganda talking points are true are censored

Though "censored" isn't the right word and censorship is about whether you are allowed to say anything anywhere, not on one individual web site. There are tons of web sites available to you to post where people incorrectly believe that Hitler was a socialist. Or know the truth but say he was because it's the propaganda they're pushing.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #42)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:55 PM

48. So, you still think Hitler is a Leftist

And think calling you on this is CENSORSHIP!



THE IRONY!

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #42)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:35 AM

144. What do you want?


A "two-way-discussion" or the truth?

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #32)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:43 PM

38. Unpack this statement:

"Hitler was a lefty - Nazi means National Socialist."

Waiting.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #38)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:53 PM

43. So you can write it and I can't?

 

By the way, my wife is a Jew, my grandfather was killed by the Nazis, my hometown in Britain was bombed and I despise the Nazis and Hitler, but I am not allowed to give my opinion.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #43)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:57 PM

49. Which has nothing to do with your statement that...

"Hitler was a leftist"

Explain to me how the policies of Hitler can be categorized as "leftist" beyond "Nazi means National Socialist"

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #43)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:00 PM

52. This post is full of win

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #52)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:01 PM

54. I actually want to hear this poster out.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #54)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:03 PM

58. .....

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #43)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:44 AM

145. You can give whatever opinions you like.


What you can't do is expect them to be simply accepted without backing them up with something.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #32)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:21 PM

167. Funny, this from a now banned troll.

You are the stupid person I was referring to in my post down thread. The stupid is alarming!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:35 PM

33. You can blame some of this hokum on Jonah Goldberg

His ridiculous book "Liberal Fascism" was a NYT bestseller in 2008. I don't know if he came up with the paradoxical idea but he's done his best to promote it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Fascism

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Response to nuxvomica (Reply #33)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 03:29 PM

174. That's where a lot of crap this came from, yes /nt

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:42 PM

37. Is there actually someone here who thinks Hitler was a leftist?...

... or was it a winger troll? Or a freeper? It's a red flag, honey. If you hear someone infer that, you are looking at a great big right wing DUMMY. They love to call Democrats bad names, like Hitler, Stalin, Satin, ...you know. They're bullies. Just shake your head no, quietly, and walk away from them.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #39)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:59 PM

50. Some people seem to get off on trying to belittle others on here.

 

Posting links to posts trying to make somebody look bad is an example, when free speech isn't allowed, so the accused has no opportunity to provide any defense. So, I guess I am assumed to be a Hitler sympathizer, or a Republican troll.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #50)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:01 PM

55. You would get a lot further with either a concession...

...or a further explanation.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #50)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:04 PM

59. Or misinformed by Republican propaganda

There are other possibilities between the two you gave. I doubt you're a Hitler sympathizer anyway.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #50)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:14 PM

68. Still waiting for a defense...

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #50)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:45 AM

146. You can provide whatever defense you like.


Feel free.

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Response to ReRe (Reply #37)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:55 PM

47. Not on this thread, no. Nobody can give that opinion without being banned.

 

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #47)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:00 PM

53. Still waiting for those links of yours

Showing Hitler was a Leftist.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #47)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:02 PM

57. It isn't an opinion. It is an inaccuracy.

Read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. It talks about the creation of the Nazi party and Hitler's issues with socialism and how he didn't even want that word used but liked the idea of appealing to workers (though I should add that he ended trade unions so he didn't care THAT much about appealing to them), even if he hated socialism. It's in the early part of the book so you won't have to read that far into it.

Opinions are things like, "Pizza tastes better with pepperoni." Not, "Pizza is not an edible food." If it's simply untrue, it isn't a matter of opinion. And if it's something simply untrue that is also a Republican piece of propaganda, it doesn't belong at DU.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #47)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:08 PM

63. WE ARE GIVING YOU A CHANCE to clear up your accusations but you just want to play violin.

Go ahead & explain, stop your pity party.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #47)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:11 PM

64. You'll get double points if you can find us a Neo-Nazi group made up of Liberals

Instead of the usual rightwing nut jobs.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #64)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:12 PM

66. Triple points for a Neo-Nazi group made up of Socialists. n/t

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Response to gollygee (Reply #66)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:13 PM

67. .....

hehehe

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Response to gollygee (Reply #66)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:15 PM

69. Ha! Imagine that! When I think Nazi's I think universal healthcare & equality for all!



^^^Not that it is needed, but just in case.

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Response to ReRe (Reply #37)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:01 PM

56. the righties also think anarchists are lefties. eom

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Response to ellenfl (Reply #56)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:19 PM

74. Generally speaking, anarchists are lefties.

"Libertarian socialism."

Noam Chomsky is a 'libertarian socialist' or anarchist.

The anarchism of Bakunin, Kropotkin, Goldman starts from a socialist premise, but denies the necessity of a central authority.

More or less ... as I understand it.

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Response to earthside (Reply #74)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:24 PM

80. Anarchist covers a broad political scale from far-left (syndicalists) to far-right (anarcho-capitali

anarcho-capitalists & black bloc.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #80)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:12 PM

100. Black bloc is a tactic not a politcal movement.

And are you saying that those who engage in black bloc tactics are anarcho-capitalists?

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #100)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:44 PM

116. Black bloc is a tactic used by the rightwing.

No, BB and anarcho-capitalists aren't the same, but fall on the same spectrum of far-right ideology. Like the Kristallnacht, or Night of Broken Glass.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #116)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:57 PM

120. Hate to break it to you but the left is not not averse to smashing property to

advance an agenda. BUT, I do believe that most of the current black bloc activity is not authentic. We only see it during peaceful left protests and, despite the destruction, nobody seems to get arrested.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #120)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 12:03 AM

121. They don't get arrested because they are law enforcement, they serve the causes of the 1%

It takes the focus off the real message and projects images of violent protestors through tv screens to the masses, thus making the viewer take the side of police & sympathize with the rich.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #121)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 12:16 AM

122. Some are but all those skinny 18-28 year old are not law enforcement but

rather paid for their "services". Somewhere, behind back doors, there is a directive to let them be. It still pisses me off when I think of the images of the cops doing nothing when "kids" rampaged through the Mission District of San Francisco. No doubt the strategy was to smear Occupy. Unfortunately for whoever concocted that stage craft, failed. The owners of the small businesses that were targeted were highly suspicious of police inaction and Occupy kicked in gear to help them clean up. The excuse the cops gave for not wading into the Mission District black bloc action is that they were concerned about the officers safety.

Contrast that with the multiple arrest during the Giants Win Riot. A far more violent action and the cops had no problem wading in and not only arresting vandals but others who merely showed opposition to authority (one young person I know what arrested for flipping off a cop - what a waste of resources).

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #116)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:30 PM

191. You have no clue what you're talking about.

It's almost as bad as the "Hitler was a leftist" meme.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #116)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:31 PM

192. You have no clue what you're talking about.

It's almost as bad as the "Hitler was a leftist" meme.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #80)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:29 PM

190. Anarcho-capitalists is a contradiction.

Anarchists aim to smash the state and capitalism believing the two are inextricably tied.

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Response to earthside (Reply #74)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 01:48 PM

159. american lefties don't deny the necessity of central authority. eom

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Response to ellenfl (Reply #56)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:32 PM

84. Yeah...

..."they always seem to show up at anti-war protests, don't they? So that makes them leftists?"

Anarchists in black costumes with black masks who destroy property and show up at anti-war protests are NOT Democrats. They are right wing plants. Comprende?

I think this might be a learning thread for some folks, huh?

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Response to ReRe (Reply #84)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 04:24 PM

175. Not to argue their legitimacy either way but there is a logical fallacy built in there.

But one could be other than a Democrat and be on the left and one can certainly be a Democrat and be on the right, happens all day, everyday.

These may or may not be plants, I suspect some are and some aren't but I am not under the belief that everyone on the left is a pacifist, or committed to non-violence, or would never damage private property, or would never poke the bear, or any such line of reasoning, it just isn't true historically nor am I sure it should be. The spirit of peace should be dominate for sure but it needs to be backed up by at least the potential for havoc.

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Response to ellenfl (Reply #56)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:26 PM

188. We are leftists.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 09:48 PM

40. Hitler was very opposed to socialism and didn't want the word "socialist" to be used

He was interested in people devoting themselves their society in a "fatherland" way and that's where social comes from, but the word "socialist" is very misapplied to the Nazis. The only people who claim otherwise are those who 1) know nothing about history and never learned anything about the Nazis, 2) are pushing right-wing propaganda, or 3) both.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:04 PM

60. It's such an absolute no-brainer, as well as being a staple of the RW arsenal of stupidity...

I just don't understand the level of ignorance of Hitler and Nazism to come up with a Hitler was a leftist argument.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:04 PM

61. Just who is the "they" Niemöller was referring to?

First they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.


Note: Niemöller used many versions over the years. This is the generally accepted version he used in the United States.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:16 PM

70. I am sick of being bullied by a small minority on this forum.

 

I HATE Nazis. They killed my grandfather. They bombed my mother's street when she was a child. My wife is a Jew. Her family lost everything because of Hitler.

But I can't give my opinion without being banned, called names and belittled by bullies.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #70)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:18 PM

71. Why Why Why is Hitler a "leftist" beyond "Nazi means National Socialist"

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #70)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:18 PM

72. You're NOT banned. That's why you're still able to leave comments. We believe in facts, truth, data,

You made the accusations, either back it up with facts or admit you're wrong. No harm done, everyone makes mistakes.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #72)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:20 PM

75. I have been accused and found guilty and banned from a thread for giving an opinion

 

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #75)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:22 PM

77. Your opinion was "Hitler was a Leftist"

An opinion you still hold in this thread.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #77)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:29 PM

83. He was a racist psychopath, but, and now I cannot give my opinion because I will

 

be subject to bullies deciding I cannot say things they disagree with.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #83)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:33 PM

85. lol

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #83)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:43 PM

90. It appears that you are doing everything YOU can to avoid substantiating

your accusation. There are many posters willing to hear you out as to why you feel the way you do. This is a political discussion board, after all.

Without a doubt there will be several people who will mock you rather than discuss. You should ignore them. But, there are also people who would like to engage in this discussion with you and they would do it intelligently and politely.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #75)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:22 PM

78. Democracy happens.

Redeem yourself here. We're open to hearing your thoughts.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #70)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:19 PM

73. Links proving Hitler was a Leftist?

Such a simple solution to the issue you're having.

When someone posts an "opinion" that is so inaccurate, especially one used by wingnuts one must expect to back it up.

Links???

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #70)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 04:12 AM

141. You can not be a leftest and anti labor at the same time

Leftest are not anti union or anti labor, they don't kill other socialist or communist or democrats as Hitler did...as someone else posted you are entitled to your opinion on DU but no one here is entitled to their own facts with out challenge..

Its not bulling its getting things right and correct..this isn't fox nation we care about the truth...please show us your argument in fact form..if it is true or convincing maybe some will come to your view..

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #70)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:47 PM

194. If you believe the nazis were leftists, you are wrong in a way that harms modern society. n/t

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:22 PM

76. Oh, fer crissakes! Teabagger, my ass. This is all crap.

Anyone who tries to assign Hitler to some American political party is simply full of shit. Period.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #76)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:23 PM

79. So, you don't think Hitler was extreme RW

You think Hitler was a Leftist?! WTF

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #79)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:25 PM

81. They're all fascist fucks. n/t

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #81)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:27 PM

82. Exactly

I'm hoping they just really misread my OP, because, if not...?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #79)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:35 PM

87. I guess you didn't read my post. Try again.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #87)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 08:52 AM

150. I did -- I know what you wrote

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #150)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 08:54 AM

151. But you decided to respond with inaccurate hyperbole anyway.

Good for you.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #79)


Response to Democratopia (Reply #88)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:45 PM

91. Finally

I think you need to ask why he did those things though - it wasn't to create a more equal society with freedom - it was to create an ethnic imperialist totalitarian state. Leftists are anti-bigotry and anti-imperialist. In short, you can't possibly be correct on this matter because your argument is ahistorical.

Everything Hitler did was about creating a Master Aryan Race for Christs sake!

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #91)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:52 PM

92. Okay, you are right and I am wrong. I am ahistorical and you are not. I get it.

 


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Response to Democratopia (Reply #92)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:54 PM

94. I'll accept that as a concession that you have no idea what you are talking about. n/t

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #94)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 12:52 AM

127. And I'll accept your impertinence for the vulgar display that it is.

 

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #127)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 01:21 AM

132. Enjoy Your Stay

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #132)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:50 AM

137. .

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Response to REP (Reply #137)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:54 AM

138. Thank the Gods for Big Government!

And socialized medicine and massive infrastructure too

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #138)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 05:03 PM

180. I like how he backpedaled all the way out the door.

You know who else likes revisionist history? KARL ROVE! I swear he would be that fucking stupid on purpose!

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #88)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:53 PM

93. There are big government folks left and right

and infrastructure is needed for a war machine--it has nothing to do with left or right. Your arguments are weak, at best.

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Response to Maeve (Reply #93)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 12:57 AM

128. So you say big government can be given a label of left and right. What is your definition of left?

 

Because it would seem mighty odd if you have a very flexible approach to defining left and right. In fact it would be ironic, seeing as I am being attacked for that same thing.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #128)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:51 AM

147. The left focusses on the dissolution of unnecessary class, gender and similar distinctions.


... it springs from the idea that society should treat its members according to their personal qualities rather than what category they happen to be in.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #128)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 09:04 AM

152. No, you are being refuted for having no real idea what 'left' and 'right' mean

the key to the two sides is equality vs hierarchy, not big vs little. Try looking it up.

Big government is a tool that can be used to serve either side. For example, Republicans want small government--unless you are talking about women's reproductive rights or gay rights and then they want a government big enough to monitor every pregnancy and sex act.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #88)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:57 PM

95. Those things can be done because of socialism, or else because of a desire for

total control.

In Hitler's case, it was a desire for total control. Not at all socialism. He hated trade unions and dissolved them. He hated socialists and had them killed. But I appreciate knowing why you thought that.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #88)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:03 PM

97. Trying to figure this out...


Was he for big government or small?


He was for a state management of private industry. This is, in fact, authoritarian not socialism. Socialism is for people's management of industry more akin to co-ops. (The Soviet Union wasn't socialist or communist either.) People were expected to subjugate themselves to the desires of the owners of private industry (and by proxy the economic vigor of the state).
The fascists hated labor unions, and socialist and communist organizations and abolished them upon taking power.

The point is not how big the government is, but how it impedes individual workers power to collectively organize and take political and social action. The Nazi's destroyed any attempt of collective action against private industry and the state... that is fascism and it is right wing. Our own right wing "right to work" movement has a fascist history.


Did his administration take away the universal healthcare as the Republicans want to do?

You will have to explain this one to me.

Did Hitler invest massively in infrastructure?

Yes, primarily to build up the military infrastructure. Massive spending on infrastructure that would serve to support military adventures is what pulled Germany out of their depression. The Nazis spent their way out of a depression to create a powerful war machine. Not very leftist.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:57 PM

96. in the same vein, neither was stalin, pol pot or mao, as i've seen claimed before.

they were basically fascists / authoritarian / meglomanics.

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Response to KG (Reply #96)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:16 PM

103. No, not in the same vein.

Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao all were against individual property ownership and private ownership of businesses and the means of production to various extents.
Hitler in the Nazis were all in favor of individual property ownership and private ownership of businesses.

That all of the above were authoritarian, that part is correct, but they are not the same.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:18 PM

104. By their reasoning, the United Soviet Socialist Republic were republicans, right?

I think so. Indeed.

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Response to nytemare (Reply #104)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 09:55 AM

154. And North Korea is a Democratic Republic

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)



Response to Lars39 (Reply #108)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:34 PM

110. Sooo...the national debt hasn't risen from 10+ Trillion to $16.4 Trillion?

 

The problem is the debt.

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Response to FlyDaddy145 (Reply #110)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:35 PM

111. I shall call this one "Austerity Al"

The problem is your Republican friends who drove the damn car into the ditch, we just pulled the car out and you want to drive it right back into the ditch

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #111)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:50 PM

118. I figured we'd run out of real names by now.

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Response to FlyDaddy145 (Reply #110)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:48 PM

117. If your crew didn't set the house on fire we wouldn't need to spend so much repairing the damage

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Response to FlyDaddy145 (Reply #110)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 01:04 AM

129. Flydaddy, whilst I don't agree with some of what you say, including the debt which isn't the major

 

problem that Republicans claim, I think it is appalling that your previous post was hidden, following a jury decision. The line has been crossed from hiding genuinely offensive posts to going on the attack to anyone who has a different opinion. I am as left as you can get and I cannot see anything wrong in your post. I am sick of the bullies on these forums.

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #108)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 01:10 AM

131. Yes, Obama has got spending under control and gets no credit for it. Most people

 

think the opposite. So much for the idea that the media is liberal, because the Republican crap is so often accepted as fact.

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Response to FlyDaddy145 (Reply #107)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:38 PM

113. In your description of yourself

the one word I don't see is Democrat.

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Response to ohheckyeah (Reply #113)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:53 PM

119. He/she says far-right is no government? Is that why they advocate for an oppressive police state?

One where the Govt tells you who you can marry, what you can do with your body, where you can and can't put a mosque, endless wars, etc.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #119)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 03:30 AM

140. Well, no government except

the government the far right wants. The scariest thing is the poster may actually believe it.

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Response to ohheckyeah (Reply #113)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 01:06 AM

130. Who are you to insist that other posters call themselves Democrat in their posts?

 

This is another example of the bullying behavior on this forum. I ask you to please stop it.

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Response to Democratopia (Reply #130)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 03:29 AM

139. I didn't insist anything, now, did I?

I made an observation. Bullying behavior?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:32 PM

109. But Jesus was.

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Response to tclambert (Reply #109)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:40 PM

114. ^^^^

Wins the Thread

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Response to tclambert (Reply #109)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 12:50 AM

125. Jesus was a Democrat

 

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:37 PM

112. Not only was Hitler not a leftist...

...or socialist, but he unsuccessfully tried to change the name of the party in order to eliminate the word "socialism." But the name was well established and the term was seen to reflect their concern with social (albeit right wing) change, not an economic system

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 12:27 AM

123. Whenever I get into this discussion, I like to haul out this chart...

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Response to Snarkoleptic (Reply #123)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:26 PM

189. I use the one from politicalcompass.org

Economic issues on the horizontal axis (communism to free market), social issues on the vertical one (authoritarian to libertarian).

Like yours, it works a lot better than simple Left and Right. Plus at the website you can take a test and have your own position plotted. Has the potential to open a lot of eyes, if some people weren't willfully blind to reality... It is kind of funny--or sad--but everyone I've sent to the site found him/herself WAY more to the left and libertarian than their leaders.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 12:52 AM

126. Agree, except for your "First Teabagger" remark.

There really is no comparison between the Tea Party and the Nazis.



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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:06 PM

161. The GOP loves Psychological projection!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:06 PM

162. What's really sad...

.. is that it's even necessary to have to say this.

Teh stooopid grows stronger every day.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #162)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:14 PM

163. Was thinking the same thing

This actually needs to be said. Sad state of affairs...

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:17 PM

164. You have to realize...the braindead followers of Foxnews etc..

don't actually know anything about these terms. They just hear the dog whistle and immediately start to drool uncontrollably - waiting for their Master Idiot Box to tell them what to hate-fear-love that day/minute.

So they see the word SOCIALISM and don't care about what the historical context is (or could be or if there is any other meaning to the word in the context used currently), that would require thinking. They don't do thinking...just pure emotions.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:22 PM

169. he was the equivalent of a tea bagger

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:58 PM

170. I learned

 

in school the Nazi Party was a far rightwing Party. When we talk about our own Political Parties, the Republican Party is more to the Right and the Democratic Party is more to the Left but it depends on the extremes in both directions. The Democratic Party is more Liberal whereas the Republican Party believes in more conservatism. The more to the right means that that you more in favor of putting limitations on liberty.

The Nazi Party believed in the advancement of the Aryan Race and white supremacy. The nationalism part meant their belief in the Supremacy of the German people over other etnic peoples. They viewed the British in the same light. If you look at the Republican Party today, it is more favorable to white supremacists and the belief that others are inferior. The Democratic Party of today seem more tolerant and respectful of the rights of others. That is my view of the Far Right and the Far Left. Those in the middle has a mix of both whether it is on fiscal Policies (more conservative) or social Policies ( more liberal). I find my own values changing over time towards the more Liberal Left. I'm not to the extreme though when it comes to gun control on things like assault weapons and magazines for those types of weapons. My view on Capitalism is people have a right to own private property but not the right to abuse others and jeopardize the state at that expense. That is when the state has a right to step in because the state is responsible for the welfare of its people. Without the protection of the state, there would be no private property.

It was the state in the first place, allowed citizens to gain property. All the property now owned by white Europeans was once owned by native Americans. It was the U.S. calvary that provided the opportunity to own those lands also. So what was given in the Past can be taken away also in the same manner. So there is always a need for the state.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 03:18 PM

172. Conservatives in the US are redefining right and left using Reaganesque thinking.

Remember Reagan's the "government is not the solution, it's the problem." To some conservatives, the idea is that the strength of the central government characterizes whether a government is socialist or not.

So to them, any political movement that involves strong central authority is liberal or even socialist and
any movement that involves limited or no central authority is conservative. The Nazi's had a strong central government that dominated Germany, so by their reasoning are socialist, even though the Nazi's had no desire to achieve true socialist ends, such as promoting economic equality.

It actually sounds like conservatives have become fairly libertarian (at least economically), although I think it more reflects a sense that lack of regulations and limited federal authority of the Gilded Age is the ideal to which to aspire.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 03:26 PM

173. Fascism is right wing. Authoritarian is authoritarian no matter what ideology drives it.

Of course Hitler was hard right, never heard of any assertion otherwise save from other right wing extremist trying to pound the National Socialist in the name of his party.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 04:38 PM

177. Something from politicalcompass.org

http://www.politicalcompass.org/faq#faq19

Why is Hitler slightly right? The Nazis were socialists, so they weren't fascists either.

Let's start with the second part first. Some respondents confuse Nazism, a political party platform, with fascism, which is a particular structure of government. Fascism legally sanctions the persecution of a particular group within the country — political, ethnic, religious — whatever. So within Nazism there are elements of fascism, as well as militarism, capitalism, socialism etc. To tar all socialists with the national socialist brush is as absurd as citing Bill Gates and Augusto Pinochet in the same breath as examples of free market capitalism.

Economically, Hitler was well to the right of Stalin. Post-war investigations led to a number of revelations about the cosy relationship between German corporations and the Reich. No such scandals subsequently surfaced in Russia, because Stalin had totally squashed the private sector. By contrast, once in power, the Nazis achieved rearmament through deficit spending. One of our respondents has correctly pointed out that they actively discouraged demand increases because they wanted infrastructure investment. Under the Reich, corporations were largely left to govern themselves, with the incentive that if they kept prices under control, they would be rewarded with government contracts. Hardly a socialist economic agenda!

But Nazi corporate ties extended well beyond Germany. It is an extraordinarily little known fact that in 1933 a cabal of Wall Street financiers and industrialists plotted an armed coup against President Roosevelt and the US Constitutional form of government. The coup planners — all of them deeply hostile to socialism — were enthusiastic supporters of German national socialism and Italian fascism. Details of the little publicised Congressional report on the failed coup may be read in 1000 Americans:The Real Rulers of the USA by George Seldes.

**************************************************************************

One could argue the Nazis were RW socialists, who sought to protect and socialize the interests of corporations, much like today's Republican Party.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 05:05 PM

181. It is pathetic that you even have to make this point.

But this "Hitler was a leftist" is the kind of crap you hear from the right wing--even though neo-nazi Hitler-worshipping groups exist today and are self-proclaimed right wing.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 05:08 PM

182. The Nazis started out from what were the equivalent of Rednecks...

They were a bunch of rural types who never saw the suffering in the urban areas of Germany during WWI where the people were starving. Some were former vets who thought they could have won WWI if they hadn't been betrayed by Liberals in Berlin who surrendered early. Being "Stabbed in the back" was a powerful meme for their cause. It was a lot like the Right Wing here who claim we could have won in Vietnam if the "Liberal Media" hadn't turned against the war.

When the Right Wing started floating the "Liberal Fascism" nonsense a few years ago REAL historians snickered. Too many people have since bought into that crap. The Nazis were hard core Right Wing and I have a standing invitation to anyone who says otherwise.

I will take them into a biker bar and invite them to walk up to some guy fresh out of prison with a swastika or SS symbol tattooed on their neck and have them tell the guy he's a Liberal while I kick back and watch them get their teeth knocked down their throat.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 05:58 PM

183. k&r nt

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:01 PM

184. The "Nazis were leftist" canard ...

... is intellectually lazy, vacuous, and full of sophistry.

It screams of a desperate argument on the part of the right-wing.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:04 PM

185. If you google "hitler leftist" you'll get millions of hits

there is a whole right wing industry out there trying to rewrite history and make Hitler a leftist (and, people like Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin trying to redeem Joe McCarthy...)

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:06 PM

186. No rational person would call him a leftist

They probably used the word Socialist because it was very popular in Europe (and even in America) in those days. Just like the swastika. It was a worldwide symbol of peace. Of course they used popular themes. What kind of idiot would use unpopular ones?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:12 PM

187. Indeed. Hitler's policies pretty much all go against what the average progressive leftist belives in

 

Hitler stressed the importance of racial purity, contrary to the more internationalist ideas of the left. And of course, he was a big fan of the Military Industrial Complex.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:46 PM

193. The Nazis killed 200,000 disabled people because they were expensive to feed. First teabaggers? yes.



The text on the poster says;

"60,000 Reichsmark is what this person suffering from a hereditary defect costs the People's community during his lifetime. Fellow citizen, that is your money too. Read ' New People', the monthly magazine of the Bureau for Race Politics of the NSDAP."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4

I don't put teabaggers above this, and it is why I hate their guts.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 06:52 PM

195. Yep. The 'Socialism' in National Socialism was faux. Like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea

 

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 07:14 PM

196. Hitler was a fascist which equated to the extreme right.

his hero who he modeled himself after was Mussolini who was also fascist. Franco in Spain was another fascist. The extreme left equates more closely to communism thus Stalin who actually was just a nutjob. It pisses me off when rightwingers call Obama and the Democrats Hitler/Nazis when they themselves are closer to Hitler's ideology. The GOP means Grand Old Party. Name one thing that is so damned grand about it these days. This means it's just a name.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 07:48 PM

198. Adolf Hitler was not a leftist.

He suppressed the left wing of Germany's political community.
He left the corporate and military structures in place.

Another mis-representation concerns the sanctity of property under fascism.
There is none. Private property is permitted, but it is, by no means, safe or owned unconditionally.
The idea of private property goes hand in hand with individualism-- which is bad medicine for both extremes.

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