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Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:42 PM

I saw Zero Dark Thirty Today

Last edited Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:49 PM - Edit history (1)

First let me get this out of the way - the torture. The movie (like real life) portrays the courier's name as coming from a detainee. No information came from torture in the movie. It was only after the torture stopped that they trick the detainee into giving up info.

Now, the raid at the end was (even though we all know what happens) is one of the most intense edge of your seat 20 minutes or so you will ever see. This movie is definitely Oscar worthy. I haven't seen Lincoln or Argo so I can't say it should win best picture. But it is damn good.

edited to clarify that NO scene in the movie portrays important info coming from torture.

66 replies, 4336 views

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Arrow 66 replies Author Time Post
Reply I saw Zero Dark Thirty Today (Original post)
arely staircase Jan 2013 OP
MADem Jan 2013 #1
arely staircase Jan 2013 #3
Autumn Colors Jan 2013 #61
In_The_Wind Jan 2013 #2
arely staircase Jan 2013 #7
In_The_Wind Jan 2013 #30
arely staircase Jan 2013 #33
In_The_Wind Jan 2013 #42
patrice Jan 2013 #14
In_The_Wind Jan 2013 #21
patrice Jan 2013 #37
In_The_Wind Jan 2013 #48
Rhiannon12866 Jan 2013 #4
arely staircase Jan 2013 #9
Rhiannon12866 Jan 2013 #51
Kalidurga Jan 2013 #5
arely staircase Jan 2013 #26
Kalidurga Jan 2013 #35
Initech Jan 2013 #6
Luminous Animal Jan 2013 #8
arely staircase Jan 2013 #10
Luminous Animal Jan 2013 #13
arely staircase Jan 2013 #15
RandiFan1290 Jan 2013 #18
arely staircase Jan 2013 #20
Bjorn Against Jan 2013 #22
marions ghost Jan 2013 #23
Luminous Animal Jan 2013 #25
marions ghost Jan 2013 #32
arely staircase Jan 2013 #27
marions ghost Jan 2013 #28
arely staircase Jan 2013 #39
marions ghost Jan 2013 #40
arely staircase Jan 2013 #45
patrice Jan 2013 #50
arely staircase Jan 2013 #52
patrice Jan 2013 #57
Luminous Animal Jan 2013 #60
CJCRANE Jan 2013 #63
brandonk Jan 2013 #11
BeyondGeography Jan 2013 #12
arely staircase Jan 2013 #17
closeupready Jan 2013 #16
Taverner Jan 2013 #19
arely staircase Jan 2013 #24
Dryclean Jan 2013 #29
marlakay Jan 2013 #62
Old Union Guy Jan 2013 #31
wyldwolf Jan 2013 #34
arely staircase Jan 2013 #41
Bjorn Against Jan 2013 #36
arely staircase Jan 2013 #47
arely staircase Jan 2013 #38
patrice Jan 2013 #43
CJCRANE Jan 2013 #44
arely staircase Jan 2013 #59
lovuian Jan 2013 #46
CJCRANE Jan 2013 #49
arely staircase Jan 2013 #54
CJCRANE Jan 2013 #55
arely staircase Jan 2013 #56
CJCRANE Jan 2013 #58
arely staircase Jan 2013 #53
noise Jan 2013 #66
Sherman A1 Jan 2013 #64
corneliamcgillicutty Jan 2013 #65

Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:47 PM

1. So, worth seeing then...I saw Lincoln and I recommend it most strongly.

If you hate history, though, it might not capture you. But if you like history and you like attention to detail, you will feel as though you are transported back to the mid nineteenth century--that's how "real" the picture feels.

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Response to MADem (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:49 PM

3. I'm a total history nerd

in fact that is what my undergrad degree is in so it is next on my list.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:57 PM

61. You will love it!

We unfortunately should have waited and gone to see it at our local arthouse theater one Saturday later than we did, because THIS HAPPENED (!!!!!).

PS: I'm not 100% certain, but I don't think the theater owners are related to THAT Koch family (at least I hope not)!

Better article (with some of the Q&A answers included) with less photos

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:48 PM

2. I couldn't view a movie that graphic.

Thanks for the warning.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:52 PM

7. it is surprisingly less graphic than i thought it would be

don't get me wrong, the opening with real 911 calls from people screaming in the towers for help were pretty bad and the torture scenes are rough too - but none of it, toture, London bombing, or seveval other infamous al quaeda bombings are not anywhere near slasher/horror movie level.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #7)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:39 PM

30. I was a news junkie when 9/11 happened.

After 3 days of watching nonstop horror, I turned off my TV. When I returned to my set, I didn't watch very much news at all for quite some time.

I quit watching slasher/horror movies long before Friday the 13th.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #30)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:41 PM

33. the last horror film i liked was 28 days later

and can't think of one i liked before that.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #33)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:52 PM

42. I did like that one.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:11 PM

14. My daughter the independent producer says the torture is perfectly handled as

information with enough human content to identify its real significance, so that we make no mistakes about that, but not to make it entertainment like so much of what we see.

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Response to patrice (Reply #14)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:23 PM

21. I can appreciate what your daughter said.

These days I don't want to add to my nightmares.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #21)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:44 PM

37. Although my tastes are just naturally limited in certain ways, I have always considered

myself at least hypothetically a pretty tough liberal, but even I have been discovering lately that it is necessary to avoid certain kinds of stimuli. I first noticed it when I saw the preview of Jaws, which overwhelmed me for at least a week. Eventually I got over it, but have noticed lately that I really have reached my max. I always used to be able to control the emotional effects of that before, now I know there's stuff you just really don't need in your head, even if you can endure it and still function acceptably.

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Response to patrice (Reply #37)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:02 PM

48. I can't remember my turning point.

It was somewhere after Edward Scissorhands.
I can't watch blood and gore.
There's too much of it in real life.

I'll watch a comedy or musical any day. Steven King movies, Twilight movies, epics.
Give me a bit of fantasy to take me away from today, if only for a short time.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:50 PM

4. I've seen all three

And though the others are very good, I think I'd vote for this one... I totally agree with you about the raid. Even though we know what happens, it's still edge-of-your-seat intense!

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Response to Rhiannon12866 (Reply #4)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:54 PM

9. you know what surprised me?

no mention of Bali or Spain amongst the other AQ attacks that were portrayed.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #9)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:27 PM

51. I noticed that, too, but I figured they must have condensed a lot

Since the lead up to finding bin Laden took years. I also wondered if the character of Maya was based on more than one person, but I saw Kathleen Bigalow on Letterman and she said this female agent was real. I'm totally baffled why she didn't get a Best Director nomination. That whole sequence was amazing!

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:50 PM

5. Argo is very good.

I haven't seen Zero Dark Thirty though. I probably won't though. It's not anywhere near the top of my list. I am glad Osama was taken out. I would have been just as glad if he was captured. But, I don't need the blanks filled in for some reason. Then again I have been known to change my mind on movies.

I have a hunch you would like Argo. Some were worried that the Iranians would be demonized, they weren't. In fact, I came away from the film being far more sympathetic even though they (the students and other rebels) did some very horrific things. Things I would never want to see done in the US not even to Republicans and gun nuts or who ever is blocking progress in this country. But, I digress I think they were shown in as sympathetic light as possible.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #5)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:28 PM

26. unfortunately i have waited too long to see argo in this little pueblito

hopefully netfliz will pick it up soon.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #26)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:42 PM

35. how about Red Box they are good at stocking block busters and mainstream movies. nt

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:51 PM

6. The torture scenes were not easy to watch but good movie overall.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:54 PM

8. Regarding torture, Diane Feinstien disagrees with you.

http://ggsidedocs.blogspot.com.br/2012/12/frank-bruni-new-york-times-its-hard-not.html#!/2012/12/frank-bruni-new-york-times-its-hard-not.html (Scroll about half way down.)

Senators John McCain, Dianne Feinstein (Chair, Intelligence Committee) & Carl Levin (Chair, Armed Services Committee):

Regardless of what message the filmmakers intended to convey, the movie clearly implies that the CIA’s coercive interrogation techniques were effective in eliciting important information related to a courier for Osama bin Laden. We have reviewed CIA records and know that this is incorrect”. . . .

The use of torture in the fight against terrorism did severe damage to America’s values and standing that cannot be justified or expunged. It remains a stain on our national conscience. We cannot afford to go back to these dark times, and with the release of Zero Dark Thirty, the filmmakers and your production studio are perpetuating the myth that torture is effective.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:55 PM

10. then she and i will just have to disagree

eom

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #10)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:08 PM

13. Leon Panetta disagrees with you, too.

Let me further point out that we first learned about the facilitator/courier’s nom de guerre from a detainee not in CIA custody in 2002. It is also important to note that some detainees who were subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques attempted to provide false or misleading information about the facilitator/courier. These attempts to falsify the facilitator/courier’s role were alerting.

In the end, no detainee in CIA custody revealed the facilitator/courier’s full true name or specific whereabouts. This information was discovered through other intelligence means.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/exclusive-private-letter-from-cia-chief-undercuts-claim-torture-was-key-to-killing-bin-laden/2011/03/03/AFLFF04G_blog.html

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:12 PM

15. I am quite aware that others disagree

i concede that point.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #15)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:17 PM

18. Any links? Any proof?

You saw a movie

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Response to RandiFan1290 (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:20 PM

20. No, just the testimony of my girlfriend

but she's not a credible witness.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #10)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:24 PM

22. Well the facts disagree with you

Can you cite even one person who would be in any sort of position to know that claims Zero Dark Thirty's torture scenes accurately represent what actually happened?

Even the filmmakers themselves admit that the film is not totally fact based.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:25 PM

23. This movie perpetuates the myth that torture is effective...

that would seem like propaganda...

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:27 PM

25. The OP is doing that, also.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #25)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:40 PM

32. Could be since

the OP seems not to have any conflict with the movie. So the torturers are the heroes and they get the info? If that is the gist, then hmmmm.....................

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:30 PM

27. have you seen it?

eom

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:36 PM

28. No

but I guess I might, to see if I think it is in fact propaganda made to condone the use of torture. Sounds like it could be.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #28)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:48 PM

39. then i would be more than happy to debate your point once

your opinion has been formed by actually seeing the thing you are critiquing. any other movies you liked/disliked but haven't seen?

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #39)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:51 PM

40. Never said I did or didnt like it

only said I thought the plot sounded like it COULD be a movie condoning torture. I'm used to assessing plots without reading/viewing the material. I don't make final judgments based on ANY body's opinion. I have to see it.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #40)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:55 PM

45. and also that i could be condoning torture as well

because i liked the movie. lots of coulds with you. i don't think the movie condones torture. others disagree.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:12 PM

50. Does the story take information from the torture & make that info weighty in the capture

of bin Laden?

I have not seen the movie yet.

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Response to patrice (Reply #50)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:30 PM

52. nobody gave up any info under torture

an AQ operative is tortured (brutally) at the beginning of the movie. he gives them nothing. they stop torturing him and begin to treat him humanely, but also lie to him about things they say they know. this gets him to give up the courier's nom de guerre. later they capture the guy the courrier is taking messages to and he is tortured as well - but also gives up no info on the courier. they dig through the files of other foreign intelligence agencies and discover the guy's real name. the big break then comes when they bribe a kuwaiti with a Lamborghini in order to get the guy's mom's phone number. they then monitor thai to get his cell phone number - then they find him by tracking his c phone location.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #52)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:47 PM

57. Well, I must see this, but to me that pretty well poses the moral problem right there. My bias about

this is toward individuals confronting the problem personally, puzzling it out and deciding, rather than taking other individual's words for what they should think/decide.

I know there's a problem with that, because people seem to have lost their ability to question deeply, so figuring things out is limited by that.

It's a risk, but if we are ever to have a chance of avoiding herd mentalities that, under certain circumstances, lead to various forms of holocaust, people need to engage in moral reasoning for themselves. In order to do that, a problem must be posed. Reasoning requires challenge/problems. This is why even polemics with which one agrees are not that satisfactory, lose their buzz, and need newer bigger buzzes. There's no personal identification with a principle to provide a more or less stable core.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #52)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:56 PM

60. In the movie, he gives up the info when he is threatened with more torture.

Last edited Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:35 PM - Edit history (1)

They torture him many many times. Stop and treat him better, giving him a nice sandwich, and when he balks threaten him with more torture! See torture works!

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #52)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 07:05 PM

63. That indicates to me...

that Lamborghinis work better than torture!

That method would definitely work on me. I'd spill the beans for a Lambo...




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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:56 PM

11. Saw it

 

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:03 PM

12. It's an excellent film

The torture scenes are pretty mild compared with standard Hollywood gore and the rest of the violence is discreetly handled, which made it all the more jarring and suspenseful. The scenes set in Pakistan were incredibly authentic and they must have been an absolute bear to produce. Really first-rate film making.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:14 PM

17. as i posted above

i was surprised the bali nightclub and spanish train station bombings weren't mentioned - since they did include the london bus, the times square guy, kobar towers, etc.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:12 PM

16. I've read some fairly damning reviews about it.

One in particular in the Guardian - that while as a film, it's well-done, as a piece of propaganda, it's a shameful direction she went in there.

I've not see it, but I am considering it.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:19 PM

19. Lincoln is very good

 

Top notch acting, directing and pretty much everything. It's Spielberg and I would say it "shows" but it actually doesn't.

The cutesy Spielberg hallmarks are all gone (like Schindler's List) as is the thousand yard Spielberg 'Stare.'

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Response to Taverner (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:26 PM

24. i think i will see it tomorrow

argo has come and gone from my one horse town so i will have to wait for netflix to pick it up. And I know what you are saying it is like there are two Spielbergs (the ET eating reeses pieses Spielberg and the Nomandy Beach/Death Camp Speilberg. Kinda like Brad Pitt is two different actors - Legend of the Fall heartthrob Pitt and Kalifornia/fight club psycho Brad Pitt.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:38 PM

29. New member...first post and all

 

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I need to start replying to posts so I can participate and contribute new threads.

I was wondering about the film. I haven't been sure about supporting it in the theater due to the glorification of violence. It does sound like an entertaining movie.

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Response to Dryclean (Reply #29)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 07:03 PM

62. Welcome to DU!

You will like it here, big family...lots of opinions.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:39 PM

31. I have read down the whole thread and ..

So the consensus is that torture is OK with a Democrat in the White House?

That a well done propaganda movie glorifying torture is OK?

That all the previous outrage about torture was so much partisan BS?

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Response to Old Union Guy (Reply #31)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:42 PM

34. My thoughts as well.

I'd also heard the President wasn't held in the best light as well.

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Response to wyldwolf (Reply #34)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:52 PM

41. not true

but there is a good dig at bush on wmd.

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Response to Old Union Guy (Reply #31)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:44 PM

36. There is no consensus in this thread

I am not the only person in this thread who thinks torture is wrong and that the filmmakers are trying to sell us lies.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #36)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:57 PM

47. on that we agree

it would seem as if you and i saw the same movie and came to different conclusions.

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Response to Old Union Guy (Reply #31)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:44 PM

38. uh, the torture took place under a republican

i don't concede that the movie glorifies toture so, being OK with it is a non seq.

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Response to Old Union Guy (Reply #31)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:55 PM

43. You mischaracterize. It is possible for adults to look at something full on for what it is &

still decide that it is wrong. Rather than accepting external interpretations, internalized ethics are the result of identification with the truth. I respect films that call on individuals to decide.

And there are those who say knowing the actual truth and then judging that is preferable to accepting even well intended mischaracterizations, because ultimately that's where authentic morality comes from, individual decisions based upon the facts.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:55 PM

44. Obviously some of the movie is factually incorrect

including the significance of the enhanced interrogation (as per the posts above, some officials have complained about this).

The film makers probably added it in for dramatic effect.



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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #44)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:51 PM

59. at no point in the film does anyone give up info under torture

eom

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:55 PM

46. I'm sorry I didn't care for it

I almost got up and walked out

I found the torture scenes Awful Awful Awful

I don't think it was appropriate to watch it
It was horrific

I didn't think the Torture did anything to help aid the interrogations

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Response to lovuian (Reply #46)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:09 PM

49. "Senator John McCain, who was tortured

during his time as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, said upon watching the film it left him sick — "because it’s wrong." In a speech in the Senate, he said that "Not only did the use of enhanced interrogation techniques on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed not provide us with key leads on bin Laden's courier, Abu Ahmed, it actually produced false and misleading information."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Dark_Thirty#Allegations_of_pro-torture_stance

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #49)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:34 PM

54. nobody gave up any info under torture in the movie

just as in real life.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #54)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:40 PM

55. Your OP mentioned

that the courier's name came up in the torture scene. John McCain and others say that the torture didn't provide any useful information.

Obviously I will have to watch the movie to make a more informed comment.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #55)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:45 PM

56. i went back and read my op

i did clarify that it was after the torture stopped. but i see your point, it was imprecisely worded. i should have said by a detainee who had previously been tortured. but they get nothing from anyone through torture.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #56)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:48 PM

58. Okay, that makes sense.

Sometimes it's difficult to get to the exact information, considering that a lot of people (including me) haven't seen the movie and the critics often use hyperbole and exaggeration.

I'll definitely see it for myself, it sounds interesting.

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Response to lovuian (Reply #46)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:32 PM

53. name me one scene in which torture illicited important info in that movie

eom

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #53)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:30 PM

66. The threat of torture evidently leads to the information

Bigelow and Boal also appear to believe the torture program was implemented in a desperate last resort good faith effort by the CIA. Why would they believe this to be true? We have reliable accounts (i.e. FBI agent Ali Soufan) that FBI methods were getting results. NY Times reporter Scott Shane described the torture program as an ad-hoc effort by the CIA. One of the key interrogators had no interrogation experience, spent his career in narcotics and did not speak Arabic. His name is Deuce Martinez. He interrogated KSM in between torture sessions.

I don't need to see the movie to realize that Boal isn't really interested in journalistic accuracy. If he were he likely would never have been given access to CIA personnel in the first place. There is no such thing as a good faith torture program. That is a CIA/Hollywood invention.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 07:06 PM

64. I want to see Lincoln, the others

not so much. Simply no interest although I understand they were well done.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:25 PM

65. SILVER LININGS PLAY BOOK--BRILLIANT ACTING AND

wonderful story. Walk away feeling good and positive about the human condition--end of story. Not for parsing and analysis--just greatly entertaining. Loved it!

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