Are guns necessary for self defense?

[AZ Progressive]

I mean, it seems that people believe that guns are the only weapons that can be used for self defense. People do NOT need lethal weapons for self defense. Doesn't everyone already know of tasers? They are effective in stopping power. You can buy one (The Taser C2) for as low as $300 (the price of a small pistol or a low end shotgun) and while they are not 100% non-lethal, they are still far less lethal than guns, and give you about 30 seconds of time to flee. They include a laser pointer, have a range of 15 feet, and additional cartridges cost $25 each. They are legal in most states (except in much of the Northeast.)

The Taser X3 has a 3 shot capacity with a range of 25 feet, and comes with 6 cartridges, costs $1100




Want to subdue them longer? There's plenty of pepper spray / pepper gel for sale, some that shoot as far as 15 feet. Pepper spray is legal in all 50 states.

This is the Fox Labs 5.3 Cone Pepper Spray

&

Use the taser for stopping power, and the pepper spray to subdue them for a longer period of time (tasers can be used without the darts that acts like a very good stungun.)

As far as I can see, the "you need guns for self defense" thing is such BS.

[RKP5637]

1. I have a taser similar to the one above. For me, I figure it's all the protection I need. n/t

[flvegan]

2. LOL! Such a cute post. Tasers.

Hey, home invaders, please do me a favor and come in one at a time as slowly as you can. Oh, and if you're here to kill me or my family or rape my wife or daughter, do us the kindness of letting me/us flee.

Better luck just asking them to lay down and be arrested.

Fuck them, tell your widow/mom/whatever that I wished I didn't need to do what I did while you bleed out.

[AZ Progressive]

4. Oh great, let me guess, non-lethal weapons are not macho enough for you?

You really think that being tasered and then pepper sprayed is not enough for a criminal to try to flee?

[flvegan]

8. You go from a pathetic attempt at factual to emotional ("Macho")

Who the fuck uses "macho" anymore anyway?

If 4 idiots kick in your door with intent to do harm, let me know when the idiocy you've professed will work.

Goodness, gracious. A taser and pepper spray and that little fella ran away. Now he can predate others, but so long as it isn't me.

Keep guessing.

[AZ Progressive]

11. You really think that tasers are a toy?

Look at this video then

If you really are scared that gangs are going to be chasing you, then you either live in the hood, being in areas your not supposed to be, or you are just crazily paranoid.

[flvegan]

13. LOL, again! I wish I lived in your little YouTube world.

It would be nice if spelling and punctuation didn't matter, but to just be so devoid of reality must be nice.

Gangs? And with that, what's wrong with living in "the hood" anyway? You seem quite down on that. Sort of like, they deserve it.

I await your response.

[AZ Progressive]

17. So you want to kill someone who invades your house, what gives you the right

to take someone else's life if you don't need to? So you really want to murder someone? Come on.

[flvegan]

18. Again with the emotion. Really?

That's not the discussion here. Lots of talk about "want" here. That's an odd brush to paint with on this topic.

But, to be factual, what gives me the right to take someone "else's" life if they invade my home with ill intent? The law. And then my clear conscience.

[AZ Progressive]

26. Just for everyone else to see

"Hey, home invaders, please do me a favor and come in one at a time as slowly as you can. Oh, and if you're here to kill me or my family or rape my wife or daughter, do us the kindness of letting me/us flee.

Better luck just asking them to lay down and be arrested.

Fuck them, tell your widow/mom/whatever that I wished I didn't need to do what I did while you bleed out."



It's not about self defense, its your gung ho want to shoot and/or kill someone. And it's like that for all the gun nuts and much of the pro-gun people. What neanderthalic savageness.

[flvegan]

29. Again with the "want" are we?

It's not want. It's in response to "oh my goodness, I'll taser someone and run away and hope nothing bad happens"

It IS about self defense. Look it the fuck up.

[billh58]

72. What a manly man

you must think that you are. I'm so fucking impressed I could just shit...

[Chan790]

75. You've just ruined whatever credibility you had in this debate.

You've just accused a person (flvegan. Let's parse that...FL (as in the state renown for the ridiculous crap that happens there, often crime-related) Vegan (as in "does not use/wear/own/abide animal-products&quot ) whose anti-death ethos very likely extends beyond your own as it includes every living thing on Earth that is not actively threatening him or his family of Neanderthal gun-nut savagery.

[billh58]

81. Noble attempt at coming to flvegan's

defense, but actually he was the one who started this bullshit with a snarky unprovoked "tough guy" response to a perfectly valid suggestion. If he (or you in his stead) wants respect, he needs to show a little first. He may be a good friend to plants and animals, but his people skills suck.

[flvegan]

34. I'm sorry that happened to you.

And I'm sorry that some folks here have no grasp of reality, and that you had to relive that to make a point.

[AZ Progressive]

47. So we must have guns so we can kill people who hurt us rather than incapacitate them and let...

...law enforcement handle it from there?

And thus, allow tens of thousands of people to be murdered a year, as well as all these mass shootings? There were only 600 cases of self defense killings in 2011 I believe.

[flvegan]

52. I almost can't believe what I'm reading.

LOL, this is funny.

[AZ Progressive]

55. I can't believe what I'm reading from you

I guess I really underestimate American's bloodthirst.

[JoeyT]

63. More sympathy for a rapist than his victim?

This kind of shit is why meaningful gun control isn't going to happen. Because the minute it looks like momentum is starting to shift toward it the "Self-defense is murder!!!!1111" people come out of the woodwork to hijack it.

[Dr. Strange]

74. What the holy fuck?!

Are you for real?

[NCTraveler]

68. "So you really want to murder someone?"

Where did you get that from? I have been reading his post long before I signed up and feel he has more compassion than most. He also has a low tolerance for bullshit.

[Squinch]

80. Because of all his home invasions, you know.

[The Magistrate]

14. Oooh, Tell Us More About Your Big Bad Self, Uncle Fivegan!

Did you gut him like deer?

Did you shoot him to mush!

Did his brains spatter all over the wall!

How many did ya get, Uncle Fivegan!

Was it three or four or five or six of those big bad raping men!

Bet you made 'em all squeal mercy, didn't ya, Uncle Fivegan!

You left 'em all in a pool of blood so thick your shoes were soaked for a week, right, Uncle Fivegan?

Do ya think it'll happen again next week, Uncle Fivegan?

Can we watch!

Gosh, Uncle Fivegan!

When I grow up I want to be a big strong killing man just like YOU!!!

[The Magistrate]

20. Surely You Do Not Expect These Ultra-Violent Cartoons You Post To Be Taken Seriously, Sir

If I thought you meant them to be taken seriously, I would have to think you are mentally deficient or unbalanced, and I prefer to consider you a person of some intelligence and sound mind. I hope you are not going to try and force me to reconsider that view.

There is nothing wrong with an active fantasy life, even an active fantasy life with a bloody turn to it, so long as one remains clear about it being fantasy, and does not allow it to leak over into real life, into one's relations with other people, into one's decision making on important questions, and into one's views on political and social questions. One's fantasy life, particularly the more blood-tinged reaches of it, are very poor grounds on which to base legal and social policies regarding lethal force.

[flvegan]

22. "Ultra-Violent Cartoons"

Clarify, please. And reconsider at will, I have in regards to you.

[flamin lib]

23. I'd alert on this post but it reinforces the image of the gun 'enthusiast' as

such a reasonable person. Kinda like Yeager or Alex Jones. Keep talkin', it works in the favor of reasonable gun control efforts like 100% NICS checks, limited magazines and a national registration database.

Go on, keep talkin'.

[flvegan]

27. What's funny is I'm not a gun enthusiast. I'm just not stupid.

So I'll do just that. Exposing idiots for what they are. Yay me!

[flamin lib]

31. Talk some more! Please! nt

[flvegan]

36. What else would you like me to say?

I can make you look like an idiot 24/7, just give me some guidance as to what you want.

[flamin lib]

41. You're doin' ok without my help! Lookin' good ya' are. nt

[flvegan]

45. Word salad. Meaning nothing. Next?

[flamin lib]

51. Left out a word. Fixed it. Back at 'cha. nt

[Pachamama]

58. "At least According to some...". - what is this? DU playground time?

Seriously? I look at your comments above, not to mention challenges and aggressive insults and its like watching the playground bully....

Many of us who have been "around" on DU for a long time know the Magistrate and have nothing but respect for him....If you want to have an intellectual conversation and discussion, even argument about issues, then do it without infantile insults. And when you start with comments that imply that a long-time respected DUer like the magistrate is a drunk and that somehow there is a posse of "some DUers say"....that he is a "mere shadow of himself" (WTF is that even supposed to mean) then expect to have some other long-time DUers, the "Moms" on this playground to say if you cant play nice and treat people with respect then go play somewhere else and that wont be tolerated here.

I for one will not tolerate such attacks an insults on fellow DUers, especially ones I hold in such high esteem and regard as The Magistrate....

[ellisonz]

64. +1

It resembles the Lounge of Olde almost in this thread. DU3 doesn't have much patience for that drama and nastiness. flvegan, chill the fuck out, dude.

[Spazito]

70. Well said, Pachamama!

+1

[billh58]

73. Watch out, or the Vegan

will stand his ground and allow you to "bleed out." He's a real tough guy don't cha know...

[tabasco]

76. I pity cowards who live in fear.

I really do.

[ManiacJoe]

3. Guns are not necessary for self defense.

However, they are good for countering lethal force at a distance.
Knives and clubs are good for countering lethal force at contact distances.
Pepper spray and tasers are good for countering non-lethal force.

It is all about using the correct tool for the job.

[AZ Progressive]

5. A Taser X3 has a 25 ft range, can shock the person long enough for you..

...to get whatever weapon they have away from them or use it on them (if you know how to use their weapon.)

[ManiacJoe]

10. You might want to talk to your local cops

about how well these work in the real world.

[bubbayugga]

6. Honestly, they don't really need them for hunting either. Real sportsmen use bows.

[Purveyor]

7. Yes but not one that holds over 5-10 rounds. My hunting guns are my 'self-defense' as I live out

in the sticks and you are on your own in these parts. Takes at least 15 minutes for a LEO to arrive out here...if you are lucky.

[AZ Progressive]

9. You really think a gang is going to come to your house?

Comeon, really?

Looks like someone has excessive fear / paranoia. Wait, isn't that a part of American culture?

[Purveyor]

12. No, not a gang but we do have crazies on meth that are known to 'home invade' plus the coyotes

which I worry about more that them.

[AZ Progressive]

15. So you MUST have lethal force because you aren't simply comfortable with anything else?

Then its really your problem, not that there's no other adequate self defense weapons available.

[AZ Progressive]

50. Fivegan, now look who's getting emotional

darkangel218, I did not in any way make light of what happened to you, but why must you think that you had to use lethal force to defend yourself and that a taser or pepper spray wouldn't be enough to defend yourself?

[flvegan]

53. Ummm...yeah, about that? You're talking to someone who was raped, and then bringing me into it.

Unwise on your side, especially in regards to your response.

I'll destroy you on her behalf. Gladly.

[JVS]

57. Now look who got hidden!

It's you!

[AZ Progressive]

54. That from a gun nut

[Chan790]

79. That post shouldn't have been hidden.

It's a prime example of where the Zenger defense should apply.

For those unfamiliar, "The truth is an absolute defense against claims of slander or libel."

AZ Progressive's posts up and down this thread attacking rape-survivors, individuals for self-defense or defending their families are vile; I will enjoy dancing on AZ P's grave. There's a jury out there that owes flvegan and darkangel218 an apology.

No progressive alive would attack a rape survivor for using deadly force to repel their attacker. That's some of the worst misogynistic shit I've ever read on DU...and DU has a bad rep of not being terribly-good on confronting misogyny so that's saying something.

[AZ Progressive]

35. If you are really insistent, the debate here is more about self defense when outside

If someone's going to put a gun on you in the streets, and if they are a thief, they are going to have the first shot and even then, when outside, I think its better to let them take your stuff if they are armed rather than risk shooting back and them killing you.

If your dealing with a group of armed home invaders, rather than a burglar, then that's perhaps the only time a gun is necessary (if you want to defend yourself). Then again, that's why there are home security protection systems and "panic rooms" in which your more likely to survive the home invasion than having a shootout across the kitchen. So thus, if you have a panic room or a home security system, its not necessary.

[krispos42]

62. Do you really think states that claim to be dedicated to reducing gun violence...

...will encourage the purchase of tasers?

Do you think, say, New York or Massachusetts will just let any adult purchase one, on demand? Do you think that they'll make it very easy to purchase and carry concealed a taser as compensation for making buying a gun (and getting a concealed carry pistol permit) difficult and time-consuming?


I doubt it.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

24. Absolutely necessary? No. Totally convenient? Yes. (n/t)

[raidert05]

25. The only problem

I could see is if there is more than one person and maintaining stand off distance from someone...although I will be honest i have been tazed, the only way I can describe it is having all of your muscles set on fire at once, and pepper spray sucks...look up military grade OC spray, I want to rip my eyeballs and face off when I got hit with that stuff and it doesn't get any better either with time, I get sprayed once a year, I would rather get shot once then have that stuff sprayed in my face.

[AZ Progressive]

28. The woman in one of those videos used bear spray

[raidert05]

38. Never..

I've never looked at a can of bear spray to see the capsicum levels are, it has to be high, what makes OC spray so bad because of its ability to get down in the pores, its activated by water so it burns even more if you wash it out and it has a UV dye in it to make you glow under a black light....the worst part is that it crystallizes in your pores and only time can make it wear off...and god forbid you do not get all of it off before you get in the shower

[Rex]

32. A good sword, like a claymore makes a great home defense weapon.

Guns are really unnecessary for home defense, unless you live in an environment where the violence is so commonplace you would actually use it for protection on a daily basis. Dunno about a tazer. I say become a ninja. Ninja with a claymore. Add some NVGs if you have the money.

[MadHound]

65. A claymore? Seriously?

Sorry, but a claymore is a horrible home defense weapon, unless you live in a very spacious mansion. With a swing radius bordering on five feet, most people are going to be gouging chunks out of the walls and ceiling. What you want is a rapier, broad sword, saber, cutlass, short sword, or other such swords made for working in confined spaces.

[Rex]

71. No actually I was kidding

ninja with a claymore!

[cbrer]

33. Good healthy debate

That will have ZERO influence on how and with what I choose to defend myself and my family.

Do you people REALLY believe you have the wisdom, prescience, and omniscience to offer optimum solutions to every person, in every event?

I may wish (in some ways) that we didn't live in the world we do live in...

But then again, reality ain't so bad!

[cherokeeprogressive]

37. Sometimes

[rrneck]

39. I watched a documentary about building a bridge once.

The engineer said, "Anybody can build a bridge that will hold enough. The art is in building a bridge that will hold just enough".

The question of course is, when it comes to defending yourself, how much is just enough?

[Dems to Win]

43. The best defense is a good beagle.

A pet dog, a steel-reinforced closet/safe room, and pepper spray to carry around with you seem like the best strategy.

The dog will make sure you're awake before anyone enter your house, giving you a few seconds to run to the safe room. Then you could sit tight and wait for the police you've called from the phone in the room.

The dog doesn't need to be a trained attack dog, not at all, a friendly family dog that loves kids will do just fine. An attack dog is an unnecessary danger.

I carry a small spray can of pepper spray on my key chain for personal safety as I'm walking around in my daily life.

Good thing about this strategy is there's pretty much no chance of accidentally killing a friend or family member with it. Might not be foolproof personal protection, but neither is a gun.

[In_The_Wind]

46. My second ex-husband:

was a big muscular guy who boxed in the golden gloves as a young man said ~ If nothing else is handy use the closest 2x4 instead of your hands.
When I have a few extra bucks I'll invest in a taser to carry because I usually leave my gun at home.

[defacto7]

48. I can make a taser out of old electronic stuff around the house.

Well, I keep a lot of electronic junk around, but tasers are not difficult to make. As a matter of fact, tasers can be made not only to stun but to seriously harm someone. It's all in the capacitor and transformer. Just for the sake of conversation, you can make a taser that kills. It isn't any more difficult than a simple stun taser. I have never made one, but the electronics are extremely simple.

I have made other things that are just as dangerous. You can make a burning laser from an old DVD RW writer. It will definitely blind someone within 20 feet. I made it for cutting plastic sheeting. I also made a spot welder from a large industrial capacitor that cost me $4. 900 volts at 22,000uF... That will kill you.

[Jenoch]

56. A Taser might work under ideal

conditions, but I would not my life to depend on one. If an armed intruder comes into my home I'm going to use MORE force than the intruder has. If the intruder is not armed, well they will not be harmed as long as they follow instructions.

A heavy shirt will make a Taser completely ineffective, a jacket even more so.

As some others have said, once you Tase the first guy, what do you do to incapacitate his accomplices? I'm in favor of not using lethal force if it's not needed. You seem to believe that everyone with a gun for home defense will shoot an intruder even if it is not necessary. There are many more defensive use of guns where no shots are fired than there are situations where the homeowner blows away the home invader.

[ReRe]

60. Naaa... too expensive...

... taser too expensive. Never owned a gun and never will. I'd shoot myself trying to load the nasty thing! I carry mace and know how to use it. I don't know who would want to shoot me, but if they did I'd be dead, dead, deadsky.

[krispos42]

61. No, they are merely the most effective choice, generally speaking

15 foot range. Single shot. Incapacitates for 30 seconds.

So I have to let an (singular) attacker get 5 yards from me, a distance where a sudden rush can have me wrestling with him? And I can't miss?


And then after I shock him, I have 30 seconds to flee? So I have to grab my kid, grab my keys, and hustle ourselves out to the car before the attacker (now very, very angry) gets up? I have to go outside, into a totally open environment, where his buddy or buddies might be waiting or breaking in through another entrance to the house?

Or I can call 911... 30 seconds is enough time for me to relay my address and situation to the dispatcher. Of course, it will be a couple of more minutes before the first cops arrives on scene.

I like cops having them as an alternative to the nightstick. I don't like depending on them.

[apocalypsehow]

82. Hahaaaahaaaaaahaaaaahaaaaahaaaaaahahahahaaaahaha

!!!

[stultusporcos]

66. No a gun is not needed

but it also depends on the person and the situation

I could defend myself and permanently remove the threat to my life with my hands, a knife, a fork, a rope, a towel, a screw driver, a shovel, an ax, a hatchet, a machete, a car, a pointy stick, a Bic Stick Pen (very good weapon to have on a plane BTW), a hammer, a wrist rocket, a whip, dog doo snow cone, a banana..just to name a few things.

The point being just about anything you can think of can be used as a weapon if you know how and are willing to use it.

A gun is nothing more than a standoff weapon.

[hack89]

67. How to stop tasers

1 Stay out of range. A Taser usually only has an effective reach of 10 to 15 feet. Beyond that reach, the wires run out of slack, and the prongs can't reach you as the target. If this step can't be taken, it's then that the others will come into play.

2 Wear thick clothing. A Taser shoots out twin prongs that pierce light clothing or skin and send a shock into the target. Heavy winter coats or bomber jackets made of resilient leather won't allow the prongs to penetrate, and the charge won't be conducted through the material of the coat, thus preventing its effects.

3 For warmer weather situations, wear insulated clothing. Thick, tough clothing such as that worn by Linemen who working on power cables or firefighters is uncomfortable in the heat, but it is lighter than winter coats, and will serve the same purpose where Tasers are concerned.

4 Wearing a bullet proof vest is the surest way to stop Tasers. While body armor is expensive, and only covers the torso, it won't be penetrated by a bullet, and a projectile with significantly less force being shot from a Taser will not have any effect if it lodges in high grade body armor.

http://www.ehow.com/how_4927858_stop-tasers.html

[ileus]

69. I carry pepper spray often.

It's only two shots but it's better than being a willing victim in areas where my LCP isn't allowed.


My Kimber pepper blaster is better than just yelling or rolling up in a ball when out in public. The rest of the time and while at home I'll stick to better defensive safety devices, like my M&P, LCP, 500, or AR.

[Hoyt]

77. How many times -- while in public -- have you needed your spray or gun?

[LAGC]

83. "Better to have and not need, than to need and not have."

[dkf]

78. Tasers are illegal in Hawaii and in several other states.

Absolutely. It is legal own a TASER ECD in the United States except in specific locations. Hawaii, Massachusetts, Michigan, New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, and the District of Columbia. Additional cities, counties, and countries might have other restrictions on the use or possession of the C2 ECD, so check all applicable laws and regulations carefully. Federal law prohibits carrying or shipping TASER ECDs out of the U.S. without proper export license.

http://www.taser.com/products/self-defense-products/taser-c2/faqs