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Fri Jan 11, 2013, 07:36 AM

I have no doubt, that if teachers were armed---students would die, at the hands of the teacher.

How many times have we seen videos of Teacher-Student confrontations.

I have no doubt some teachers will pull a gun in these situations.

72 replies, 5023 views

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Reply I have no doubt, that if teachers were armed---students would die, at the hands of the teacher. (Original post)
trumad Jan 2013 OP
Skidmore Jan 2013 #1
Sheepshank Jan 2013 #46
Graybeard Jan 2013 #2
BlueStreak Jan 2013 #34
eomer Jan 2013 #65
BlueStreak Jan 2013 #72
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #3
RadiationTherapy Jan 2013 #4
Xipe Totec Jan 2013 #5
tavernier Jan 2013 #8
CrispyQ Jan 2013 #57
MNBrewer Jan 2013 #6
In_The_Wind Jan 2013 #7
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #56
apnu Jan 2013 #9
michigandem58 Jan 2013 #15
UnrepentantLiberal Jan 2013 #10
Orrex Jan 2013 #11
October Jan 2013 #12
Ilsa Jan 2013 #22
Orrex Jan 2013 #26
Ilsa Jan 2013 #69
Sheepshank Jan 2013 #48
Guy Whitey Corngood Jan 2013 #70
Jennicut Jan 2013 #13
leeroysphitz Jan 2013 #14
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #16
wildeyed Jan 2013 #17
Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2013 #18
DaveJ Jan 2013 #19
narnian60 Jan 2013 #33
marble falls Jan 2013 #20
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #21
kag Jan 2013 #23
peace13 Jan 2013 #24
justiceischeap Jan 2013 #25
Orrex Jan 2013 #27
Lex Jan 2013 #28
no_hypocrisy Jan 2013 #29
earthside Jan 2013 #30
uponit7771 Jan 2013 #31
Brickbat Jan 2013 #32
bobclark86 Jan 2013 #35
LiberalEsque01 Jan 2013 #38
Sheepshank Jan 2013 #50
trumad Jan 2013 #41
jberryhill Jan 2013 #58
SoapBox Jan 2013 #36
Myrina Jan 2013 #37
Recursion Jan 2013 #39
LiberalEsque01 Jan 2013 #40
Recursion Jan 2013 #42
LiberalEsque01 Jan 2013 #45
gollygee Jan 2013 #47
LiberalEsque01 Jan 2013 #49
gollygee Jan 2013 #59
LiberalEsque01 Jan 2013 #60
gollygee Jan 2013 #61
LiberalEsque01 Jan 2013 #63
sofa king Jan 2013 #71
Recursion Jan 2013 #66
Sheepshank Jan 2013 #43
Smarmie Doofus Jan 2013 #62
wiggs Jan 2013 #44
Cary Jan 2013 #51
Smarmie Doofus Jan 2013 #52
doc03 Jan 2013 #53
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #54
Fresh_Start Jan 2013 #55
treestar Jan 2013 #64
Recursion Jan 2013 #67
cynatnite Jan 2013 #68

Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 07:45 AM

1. I think you are right.

I also can't imagine how you can secure a weapon so that some enterprising child doesn't figure out it exists and gets him/herself in trouble with it. I just don't think classrooms are the places for weaponry.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:27 AM

46. If the weapon is secured/locked up what use it is in an emergency?

The alternative is to have teachers wear holsters? Thanks, but no thanks. That is NOT the envoronment that promotes a sense of safety, well being, and calm learning. That's not the environment I want for my kids to be in every day for 7-8 hours a day.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 07:50 AM

2. Or armed guards?

Do we really want to risk having a George Zimmerman in every school?

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Response to Graybeard (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:00 AM

34. Arming teachers is a much worse idea than arming guards

I think it is fair to expect that we could hire professionally trained guards and hold them to a set of standards. Even so, the track record is not very good for armed guards preventing school shootings, or even lessening the carnage.

But arming teachers? That is pure insanity.

Anybody who has ever been a teacher knows there are times when you come right up to your limit of patience. There are time when even the best teachers can barely keep it under control. Most teachers with guns would not going into a shooting rage any time during their career, but with 3 million armed teachers, I have no doubt that there would be at least dozens of cases each year where teachers go "postal".

And what should be obvious to anybody with the reasoning power of a banana, if the gun is supposed to be at the ready to take on a surprise attacker, that means the gun must be in a place where students could also get to it, perhaps by overpowering the teacher. I have been in classrooms where there is no way I'd want to have a gun on my person. That would be almost as dangerous as an armed prison guard walking along through an exercise area full of career criminals. Thankfully not every classroom is like that, but there are such situations, and then there are the kids who themselves are mentally unbalanced. This is a horrendous idea.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #34)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:31 PM

65. Re: "we could hire professionally trained guards and hold them to a set of standards"

Perhaps, except when we don't. Even if we could accomplish that for a large percentage of guards, at best there will still be some bad ones.

I don't know about other parts of the country but here in Florida we have an idiot guard shoot somebody every now and again. More armed guards will increase the exposure and surely therefore the incidence of people being shot (inappropriately) by them.

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Response to eomer (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:38 PM

72. I agree. But at least there is some logic to that

There is no logic whatsoever to telling teachers to keep loaded guns with them in the classroom.

What could possibly go wrong?

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 07:51 AM

3. I don't think all or even most (or possibly any) teachers should be armed.

 

Many businesses and schools have programs to deal with on site medical emergencies until paramedics arrive, a sort of group of first responders trained/certified with emergency medical knowledge and equipped with more than basic first aid supplies.

Perhaps simply one or two specially trained "safety officers" that are part of the administrative or school staff. It can be a teacher or admin that has been well screened, is licensed and attended state training classes on how to deal with an active shooter. They can keep the firearm in a locked biometric safe and have a police-band radio for emergency direct dispatcher contact - if a shooting occurs they can respond in less than a minute or so instead of waiting for cops to arrive in 5-10 minutes. Sort of like a reserve deputy.

I don't think arming all teachers is the answer - like you say. It's a stressful job and with too many cooks in the kitchen, a (deadly) mistake is bound to be made.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 07:57 AM

4. You're worthless and weak!!

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 07:59 AM

5. Statistically speaking, a gun has been involved in 100% of all gun deaths.

When somebody gets shot, there's always a gun nearby.

There have been no cases of people being shot where guns were not present.

It stands to reason that being in the vicinity of a gun increases the likelihood of being shot.

So increasing the number of guns near children increases the chances of having children shot to death, irrespective of who is holding the gun.

But then again, logic does not seem to persuade people as much as it used to.

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Response to Xipe Totec (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:04 AM

8. Brilliant.

Sadly, way too much clear reasoning. It will never fly.

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Response to Xipe Totec (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:45 AM

57. ++++1!

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 07:59 AM

6. That's a problem, isn't it?

Sometimes even a "good guy with a gun" can snap.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:02 AM

7. Guns Do Not Belong In Schools.

A carrying permit in New York State prohibits taking the gun onto school grounds for a good reason.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:43 AM

56. And the example being set for children is horrific. n/t

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:06 AM

9. I would agree with that.

I recall more than a few unhinged teachers from my high school. The thought of them armed is terryfying.

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Response to apnu (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:38 AM

15. And those are probably the ones

 

who are gun nuts and would be designated as your armed protecter.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:07 AM

10. Good point.

 

The answer to gun violence is not more guns.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:20 AM

11. Obviously we should arm the students, too

After all, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:33 AM

12. Really. This.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:11 AM

22. And after all, who wouldn't

Trust a 15 year old with raging hormones with a firearm in a school when he'd (she'd) rather be homing watching tv, gaming, shopping, or out running around?

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:36 AM

26. See? It's the only solution that makes sense.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #26)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:42 PM

69. You and I forgot to

Load our plates with sarcasm smilies.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:31 AM

48. Or just broke up with a girlfriend, orwho felt slighted...really they deserve guns as an outlet n/t

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Response to Orrex (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:46 PM

70. But students might threaten the janitors. So janitors should be armed as well, etc, etc, etc..... nt

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:35 AM

13. In elementary schools the issue for me is that little children might grab the gun.

I work as a sub and believe me, the kids are all over you. You can't hug them but they do hug you out of nowhere. If I have a gun on my hip do I want little kids hanging on me? I just subbed a kindergarten class the other day and I imagined having a gun with those kids. Makes me shudder.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:35 AM

14. Statistically it is inevitable.

Over time.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:39 AM

16. In any tense situation, the introduction of guns is just a tragedy waiting to happen. nt

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:46 AM

17. A nut bag parent started yelling at a teacher during pickup at my kid's school the other day.

I doubt the teacher would have shot her if he was armed, but it would have added a new layer of intensity to the proceedings. Not a good one.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:51 AM

18. DURec.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:55 AM

19. Plus nutbag Students...

I could see troubled kids taunting teachers with "what are you gonna do... pull out yer gun.. do it..." and then it could get even worse.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:00 AM

33. You must have taught before.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 08:58 AM

20. If not by the teacher, by the teacher's arms. The idea is get fewer guns into schools ....

not more.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:01 AM

21. and vice-versa.

 

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:18 AM

23. My brother was assaulted by a student once...

Years ago. He's a teacher, and he was teaching middle school, and a couple of girls started pushing him and kicking him. He wasn't hurt badly, just kind of bruised and more than a little pissed off. Pacifist that he is, though, he didn't fight back, not even to defend himself.

But I can certainly imagine someone with a little less self-restraint thinking that that would be a "perfect" instance to use a gun to defend him/herself.

Yes, start putting guns in schools, and teachers and students will most definitely start being shot more and more often.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:31 AM

24. I think there are many intelligent students who would refuse to go to school...

If the staff was armed. Think about it. Unhappy, disgruntled people who already have power over you are now carrying. Of course the level headed teacher that can see inner beauty will be there to defend the 'obstinate one'. .....no worries.

This whole idea is crazy. I guess the only thing to do its finish the dismantling of the schools. Unless, maybe we could have parent volunteers bring their sub machine guns in to keep the kids safe.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:35 AM

25. A co-worker brought up this fabulous point--it'd be so much easier for pedophile teachers

to intimidate students with their guns too. Imagine that, if you don't touch me/let me touch you, I'll kill you with my gun. That's a happy thought.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:38 AM

27. This would mesh nicely with Stand Your Ground laws

"I had to shoot that kid, because I felt threatened."

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:38 AM

28. I had a couple of high school teachers that I'm sure didn't need a handgun

in class. No way. I would've been worried for sure.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:39 AM

29. If you arm teachers, then parents will feel it necessary to arm their children

to protect them from their teachers.

Where do you draw the line? With no guns in schools, period.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:47 AM

30. And then the NRA will call for arming the students.

It is what the NRA and the gun fetishists do.

Of course, underneath it all is the greed of gun manufacturers to make more money (sorry gun nuts, it isn't really about the Second Amendment).

The NRA and their weapons-makers puppet masters want to see the U.S. look like a third world country where everybody walks around with a pistol in their belt and an AR-15 slung over their back.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:55 AM

31. I have no doubt either, in certain schools the rate would be high too

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:57 AM

32. When I asked my son about how he would feel with armed teachers in his school, he kind of shrugged,

as if to prove to me it was no big deal. When I started naming teachers ("OK, so how would you feel if Ms. X had a gun? How about Mr. Y?"), he began laughing and couldn't stop.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:07 AM

35. So... who proposed this?

As far as I know, the NRA was talking about guards, not teachers. Show me where they (or anyone with actual clout in the political process) is talking about arming teachers, please.

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Response to bobclark86 (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:12 AM

38. I don't think anyone really has

 

And I think we all know that public skool teachers in general aren't competent enough to carry scissors much less a real weapon. Armed guards or police, however, are not really all that rare and are a good idea.

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Response to LiberalEsque01 (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:34 AM

50. Then there are those "superior" people, better off running with scissors....just saying n/t

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Response to bobclark86 (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:20 AM

41. What---you think the NRA wouldn't support this...

LOL

Look around---many are saying let's arm the teachers, even some teachers.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/ed-schultz-interviews-teacher-who-wants-to-carry-gun-in-class-without-telling-parents/

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Response to bobclark86 (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:47 AM

58. And where will these thousands of guards come from

Surely each will be a steely-eyed consummate professional, like TSA agents at airports, right?

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:10 AM

36. Agreed!

But I'll bet that the NRA would say that is OK...'cause at least there are guns in schools, like they want.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:11 AM

37. Agreed.

Or kids who get hold of the gun when they're pissed at the teacher, or another student ... all hell breaks loose again.

NO guns in schools. Period.
What we need to do is figure out why Schools are so often the places of such confrontations.
I think it's because our children don't know how to take 'no' for an answer anymore, they don't know how to negotiate, the biggest meanest bully is the one with the most power and the issues that historically have troubled our children are now magnified.

Rather than arming everyone to the teeth, we need to address the causes of such distress, rage, trauma in the first place.

JMHO ...

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:14 AM

39. Schools being gun free zones is a safety, not crime, issue

I think there's so much heat being blasted into this discussion that people forget why that rule is there. It's not to keep someone with murderous intent out (nobody thinks it will do that). It's to keep some dumbass teacher from accidentally discharging his weapon in the faculty lounge. The safety aspect so completely overwhelms the crime aspect, in terms of numbers, that mass shootings just disappear into noise at that point.

Risk management: it's not sexy, and Americans need to be better at it.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:16 AM

40. So basically..

 

If we have gun free zones that are unguarded 'everyone' agrees that it's an open invitation for murderers? I'm glad that's out of the way.

So, what's the answer then? I guess the status quo isn't so bad then? Keep the gun free signs up and hope for the best I guess. Or maybe make all the guns in the country disappear by magic? Both are about equally good ideas I suppose.

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Response to LiberalEsque01 (Reply #40)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:21 AM

42. You're more likely to be struck by lightning while being eaten by an alligator...

...than to be the victim of a mass shooting.

The point of gun free zones is orthogonal to mass shootings; the entire actuarial argument is about accidents and theft. Mass shootings are so rare that they simply don't even make a dent in the statistics that underlie having schools as gun free zones.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #42)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:26 AM

45. I think..

 

Having armed guards would be a good idea.

And I also agree the calls for basically rewriting the bill of rights over such rare incidents is also the height of stupidity.

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Response to LiberalEsque01 (Reply #45)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:29 AM

47. Either they're "such rare incidents" and more guns in the schools

would cause more accidental deaths than they would solve, or they incidents are common enough that gun control laws would help.

You can't call them "rare incidents" to push one side of your agenda, and at the same time suggest they're common enough that you need more guns, pushing another side of your agenda.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:33 AM

49. You're not thinking clearly though

 

You have no proof that armed guards cause more havok than they stop (in schools, banks or wherever). So you're basically arguing on a strawman.

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Response to LiberalEsque01 (Reply #49)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:32 AM

59. I'm speculating, as are you

We don't know whether having armed guards will save lives or cause accidental gun deaths. There are many more accidental gun deaths in this country than mass-shooting school deaths, so I think the stats are on my side.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:37 AM

60. Lots of schools and places

 

have had armed guards and I really don't think there's been any of these incidences that you fear. Would you disarm the school that major politcians go to? They are armed and clearly don't think of this as such a threat. However, general ignorance does tend to make people think that having armed guards around magically makes places more dangerous.

Why not disarm all court houses, airports, banks, and so on? If guards are a threat, clearly those things would make sense.

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Response to LiberalEsque01 (Reply #60)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:39 AM

61. You have to weigh the threat of the guards vs. the threat of violence by others

Around major politicians who have a high potential of assassination, obviously it's weighed one way.

Around kids and teenagers who are curious about guns, and who already sometimes have the police called and get tasered over tantrums, it's weighed another.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #61)


Response to LiberalEsque01 (Reply #60)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:06 PM

71. In 2008, there were 592 accidental firearms deaths in the US.

More than all school shootings combined in that year, and probably more than the combined total of all school shooting deaths from 2008 to the present. They accounted for about 0.5 percent of all accidental deaths in 2008.

www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/firearm-accident-fatalities-at-an-all-time-low.aspx

One does not really need any solid numbers beyond those to realize that if one compares the accidental death figure of half a percent against the nearly insignificant figure of school shooting deaths (at least ten times lower than accidental deaths), introducing guns into schools will raise the number of deaths in schools without influencing the nearly random school shooting figures at all.

In other words, we will certainly be killing more people to protect them against an insignificant threat if we bring guns into schools. Not to mention the fact that would-be school shooters who currently do not have access to guns will now have access to a gun inside the schools, if the murderous rampager is simply willing to disable the guard first in order to get the firearm. The guards will be the suppliers of the weaponry that aspiring school shooters require to do their fell work.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #47)


Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:24 AM

43. dumb laws that will do nothing more than create war zones.

La Pierre is a myopic, paranoid, delusional, self important, fucking idiot

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #43)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:40 AM

62. Hey..... a good candidate for US Sec of Ed, then.

I jest.

The "paranoid" part: the jury's still out on that.

But the other qualities match up pretty well with the current SOE.

I'd add "ignorant". They have that in common also.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:25 AM

44. How many times do highly-trained police officers make mistakes in

shootings? Someone makes a wrong move...someone looks like a someone else they are chasing....someone carries something that only looks like a real gun....and they get shot. When they shouldn't have been shot.

So...more guns in the hands of more people who are NOT as well trained will lead to more mistakes, more tragedy, more accidents and more death.

And more money for the gun lobby.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:37 AM

51. We should simply clone George Zimmerman a few thousand times and let him roam the halls.

Nothing like untrained, self-righteous, glory hungry little minds with guns out to make their bones.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:37 AM

52. What does Bill Gates think? He knows everything. n/t

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:38 AM

53. Remembering some of the teachers I had in school there is no way they

should have been packing a gun. We would be reading about some teacher that lost it and killed their class.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:42 AM

54. I've had teachers that "no-way" would I trust them with a loaded gun. They were not

wrapped too well. We had one that was such a hot head she was always throwing chalk at students, and hard, plus slapping people with rulers ... slapping desks with rulers ... shouting and screaming. And we had some male teachers that were overloaded with testosterone and outright bullies + hot heads.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:43 AM

55. or teachers and other students would die at the hand of the students

since I think its possible that the teachers weapon might be taken from him by a student

I don't really see teachers as the most uncontrolled force in the classroom....

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:50 AM

64. It would certainly make it easier to happen

If it were going to happen, it would make it more likely.

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:38 PM

67. How many guns are currently in schools? Do we have any idea?

How many would there be if teachers were allowed to bring guns? Do we have any idea?

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Response to trumad (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:41 PM

68. I think we'd see more than a few accidental shootings as well...

I can't express enough at how much I am against this.

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