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Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:21 AM

New 50-state handgun policy: mandatory Open Carry

People with handguns should Open Carry. Two or three states already mandate it and I hope all fifty do eventually.

Here's a discussion I had last week about gun use with my neighbor who's married to a gun user of rifles, glocks, you name it. Sweet people with good hearts, both of them...

Neighbor:
ONLY if you plan to USE a gun, you SHOULD leave it in plain sight. Hubby might carry just in case he is confronted by someone else with a gun, I guess.

Me:
'Just in case' is not an option. Just in case is sneaky. If he wore it outright, he'd probably NOT be confronted. NEITHER gun carrier would confront the other, would they.
He needs to see it that way.
All gun owners cannot excuse the hiding of their guns. Not if they're pro-lifers.

Neighbor:
Well he's not out to play "quick" draw!

Me:
If I had a gun I'd wear it so anyone could see it.
When you see someone carrying, you don't want to play 'quick draw.'

Neighbor:
I'm sure there would be some goofball out there just like in the wild west.

Me:
Conceal and carry is the coward's way, according to the Wild West.
Open carry would be the the wild west, civilized, adult thing to do.
If we want our 2nd Amendment, we can't be cowardly about it. Man up and wear the things openly.

Neighbor:
There are points on both sides.

Me:
Points on both sides still have weight. Not all sides are equal.

Person A:
I almost feel guilty about going out after what happened today! (referring to the Newtown shooting0

Me:
Well, the open carry men of the Wild West have been, through our movies, at least, how we promote the manly expression of the 2nd Amendment. And Open Carry is The Real Man's way. And that's what I've got to say about handgun carrying. It's not personal preference, it's an issue of life and death. Real Men carry openly if they stand up for gun rights. AND if they're pro-life.

They give the unarmed AND armed people fair notice. It's in the movies and our culture. If the 2nd Amendment is the law of the land, it should be openly stood up for by Real Men Gun Toters. They tend to be the biggest fans of men of the wild west movies, anyway, so they should act like those men.

DU'ers, I think Conceal and Carry should be only for special allowances under, let's say, police plain clothes detective work. Or other special circumstances I can't think of offhand. But not for your everyday handgun carrier. If "guns make society more polite," then the polite thing to do would be to NOT BE SNEAKY about whether you're packing. For all those gun owners who are pro-life, it seems the obvious thing to do.

Now, that kind of gun culture I could get used to. What say you?


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Reply New 50-state handgun policy: mandatory Open Carry (Original post)
ancianita Jan 2013 OP
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #1
jmg257 Jan 2013 #2
ancianita Jan 2013 #5
jmg257 Jan 2013 #9
RC Jan 2013 #29
Dryclean Jan 2013 #127
CaliforniaPeggy Jan 2013 #128
Dryclean Jan 2013 #141
jpak Jan 2013 #91
ancianita Jan 2013 #95
jpak Jan 2013 #98
RC Jan 2013 #27
yesphan Jan 2013 #55
ellisonz Jan 2013 #3
ancianita Jan 2013 #11
ellisonz Jan 2013 #12
ancianita Jan 2013 #15
ellisonz Jan 2013 #16
RetroGamer1971 Jan 2013 #102
yesphan Jan 2013 #56
ancianita Jan 2013 #58
redstatebluegirl Jan 2013 #130
rrneck Jan 2013 #4
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #6
rrneck Jan 2013 #8
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #18
rrneck Jan 2013 #23
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #24
rrneck Jan 2013 #26
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #30
rrneck Jan 2013 #33
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #38
rrneck Jan 2013 #39
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #40
rrneck Jan 2013 #41
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #42
rrneck Jan 2013 #43
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #44
rrneck Jan 2013 #45
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #46
rrneck Jan 2013 #47
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #48
rrneck Jan 2013 #49
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #50
rrneck Jan 2013 #52
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #68
rrneck Jan 2013 #82
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #92
rrneck Jan 2013 #105
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #106
rrneck Jan 2013 #107
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #109
rrneck Jan 2013 #110
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #111
rrneck Jan 2013 #140
theKed Jan 2013 #80
rrneck Jan 2013 #81
theKed Jan 2013 #85
rrneck Jan 2013 #86
AlinPA Jan 2013 #94
ancianita Jan 2013 #7
Kablooie Jan 2013 #10
ancianita Jan 2013 #13
cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #14
ancianita Jan 2013 #17
Matariki Jan 2013 #53
FLyellowdog Jan 2013 #19
ancianita Jan 2013 #20
Tommy_Carcetti Jan 2013 #22
ancianita Jan 2013 #31
redstatebluegirl Jan 2013 #132
ancianita Jan 2013 #134
redstatebluegirl Jan 2013 #135
ancianita Jan 2013 #136
Tommy_Carcetti Jan 2013 #21
xXxDSMer Jan 2013 #142
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Recursion Jan 2013 #25
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rustydog Jan 2013 #34
ancianita Jan 2013 #35
Aerows Jan 2013 #36
ancianita Jan 2013 #37
Matariki Jan 2013 #51
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ancianita Jan 2013 #118
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xXxDSMer Jan 2013 #143
HockeyMom Jan 2013 #54
ancianita Jan 2013 #59
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ancianita Jan 2013 #61
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ancianita Jan 2013 #63
samsingh Jan 2013 #67
Buns_of_Fire Jan 2013 #64
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Straw Man Jan 2013 #69
ancianita Jan 2013 #70
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ancianita Jan 2013 #72
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ancianita Jan 2013 #74
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ancianita Jan 2013 #77
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Fumesucker Jan 2013 #84
ancianita Jan 2013 #88
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ancianita Jan 2013 #83
jpak Jan 2013 #89
ancianita Jan 2013 #90
jpak Jan 2013 #93
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #96
jpak Jan 2013 #99
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #101
jpak Jan 2013 #103
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #104
ancianita Jan 2013 #97
jpak Jan 2013 #100
grahamhgreen Jan 2013 #108
99Forever Jan 2013 #116
ancianita Jan 2013 #120
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #121
ancianita Jan 2013 #123
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #124
ancianita Jan 2013 #125
dorkulon Jan 2013 #126
ancianita Jan 2013 #129
dorkulon Jan 2013 #137
ancianita Jan 2013 #138
dorkulon Jan 2013 #139
Politicub Jan 2013 #131
ancianita Jan 2013 #133

Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:25 AM

1. I've argued this before, I want to see any guns that I'm around

Mandatory open carry with prison time for carrying concealed. If we can be mandated to buy shitty overpriced medical insurance then carrying guns in the open can be mandated. There is no second amendment right to concealed carry.

There's a reason that societies have used shunning as a means of social control.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:29 AM

2. What were the benefits of this again?

To Get people used to the idea of other people having guns?

Id bet most gun carriers would like the idea...bigger guns, less work concealing them... and sure as shit some would love to show off.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:41 AM

5. More honesty, lessening a fear of the tool itself by non-owners?

Lessening phony politeness in discourse? Sure, they might be proud to. As an unarmed person, I'd be much more relaxed around an open carry. To me, concealed carry is sneaky and insecure. I don't trust people that hide a gun out in public. This is no small thing for people who don't want to own guns but have to live around those who do.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:52 AM

9. Thanks! nt

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Response to ancianita (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:48 AM

29. I don't trust any private individual that thinks they need a gun in public.

 

Doesn't matter whether it is open or concealed carry. Leave it locked up at home. And not on a chair in the living room either.

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Response to RC (Reply #29)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:59 PM

127. I can't imagine...

 

It would be just so overwhelming to have to see all of those evil instruments of death out everywhere i go with my partner. I just can't understand why people feel the need to carry those awful things anyway. I barely understand why we have to have armed police. It just ratchets up violence. Our world is scary enough without having to see pistols on every hip like we all live in the primitive history of this country.

So nice to meet everyone. I've just joined this wonderful site.

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Response to Dryclean (Reply #127)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:03 PM

128. Welcome to DU, Dryclean!

It IS a cool site, and I hope you have a grand time being here.

When you're ready for a break from the hurly-burly of politics, come on over to the Lounge! We post pictures, talk about ourselves and whatnot, and generally have a good time.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #128)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 11:17 AM

141. Thank you for the welcome

 

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Response to ancianita (Reply #5)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:55 AM

91. Give me liberal Stand-Your-Ground and Castle Laws so I can legally shoot someone

openly carrying a handgun.

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Response to jpak (Reply #91)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:01 PM

95. OC's would likely be aware of that and not provoke any occasion for that?

Sounds as if you're talking about how good guys would like to exploit laws to get away with murder and still stay 'good guys.'

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Response to ancianita (Reply #95)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:04 PM

98. Their very presence is provocative - that is why assholes open carry in the first place

I want the legal means to protect my self from them.

yup

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:43 AM

27. I can see it now. The NRA will get a law passed that says that

 

anything with a pistol grip is a pistol, i.e., a hand gun. They'll make special open carry Hip & Leg holsters for that pistol grip Bushmaster.

Yeah, that'll make this country safer.

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Response to RC (Reply #27)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:09 PM

55. This is also a "pistol".

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:36 AM

3. The SCOTUS only gives you the right to tote in the home. n/t

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:53 AM

11. Right. But I'm speaking of Open Carry state law.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:54 AM

12. Yeah fuck that shit

As a Californian, I really can't imagine all the shitheads around here packing heat to El Pollo Loco.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:00 AM

15. I'm not saying they HAVE to carry when they walk out the house if they own one. I hope you

didn't get that impression. I'm saying that if they walk out of the house with it, they can't conceal it, is all.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #15)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:05 AM

16. I understood you perfectly...

...and as a Californian, where it is by and large not legal to tote either open or concealed. I am more than happy knowing that the asshat eating his three piece combo across the room from me at El Pollo Loco on my lunch break isn't going to drop his gun and put one in the cashier.

You know there's a reason you don't see armed guards all that often anymore in businesses...

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:20 PM

102. Then don't live in Phoenix.

I see at least one open carry a week, just at the grocery store!

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Response to ancianita (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:11 PM

56. OC is now legal

in Oklahoma. As of November 1st I believe. I've seen one OC person so far.

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Response to yesphan (Reply #56)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:16 PM

58. noted

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Response to yesphan (Reply #56)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:31 PM

130. I have seen many, in stores, eating out

the people I see carrying in Oklahoma absolutely terrify me.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:39 AM

4. Do you realize you'd be legislating how pepole look?

Do you really think that's a good idea?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:42 AM

6. Only outside the home

Something that's already done unless you live in a nudist camp.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:50 AM

8. You got a problem with nudism?

Are nudists bad people? Are they perverts? Or are you clinging to some sort of eighteenth century understanding of public comportment?

I don't understand the impulse to legislate decorum.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:17 AM

18. I don't care, walk around nude

Seriously, wouldn't bother me a bit. Hell, I'd even concede that you could carry a concealed gun if you were nude, that would prove you were truly serious about being armed at all times, good enough for me, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

The police most places might have something to say about it though, you'd have to work out that with them.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #18)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:03 AM

23. So,

what right do you have to know what other people carry in their pockets?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #23)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:08 AM

24. Your complaint was that it was legislating the way people look

My reply, which you pretended to misunderstand, was that the way people look is legislated damn near everywhere in the USA, there are very few places you can legally go nude (San Francisco perhaps?).

I suggest bigger motors on the goalposts, it would speed up moving them quite a bit.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:25 AM

26. Do you support laws regulating how people look?

And if so, why?

Post #1 in this thread: "I've argued this before, I want to see any guns that I'm around"

Since the OP wants to require people to reveal the contents of their pockets so that he can see them, which is to say regulate how they look, you should be able to find a reason to require them to conceal their bodies or any part thereof.

Wanna talk about Burkas?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #26)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:48 AM

30. Let me get this straight because I'm a little slow

Keeping people from hiding guns on their person while in public is the same as forcing women to wear burqas?





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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:35 PM

33. Forcing people to expose what they carry on their persons

is the codification of a personal preference that has no utility in the real world beyond stigmatizing people because you don't trust them.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #33)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:45 PM

38. It would be illogical to trust someone who clearly doesn't trust me

If someone feels the need to be armed in my presence then that is prima facie evidence he does not trust me, it's an insult in fact.

That he doesn't want me to know he's armed is even more damn good reason for me not to trust him.

Gun nuts are never happy, tell them they can keep their guns just so long as they keep them visible in public and they whine because they can't hide the damn things.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:50 PM

39. Can he trust you to save him if he gets assaulted? nt

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Response to rrneck (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:59 PM

40. If he wears the gun outside his clothes no one is going to assault him in the first place

An armed society is a polite society, problem solved.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #40)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:05 PM

41. Hm, another dodge.

We were talking about trust. You don't trust him to carry a gun. If he gives up his gun, can he trust you to save him if he gets assaulted?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #41)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:11 PM

42. I've already said he can have the gun if he wears it where it is visible

I don't mind being the one to leave, truly.

Happy to leave where people are armed if people would be law abiding and polite enough to let me know.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #42)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:27 PM

43. "polite enough to let me know. "

So you are back to legislating decorum. Why does your understanding of decorum define moral responsibility?

You want to be able to see the gun because you don't trust people who carry guns to not shoot you. Yet you refuse to produce evidence to support your suspicions. You would have us legislate what people wear to satisfy your lack of trust in others by defining proper dress in public, yet you refuse to even consider your responsibilities to others by demanding those requirements. You would compel others to declare what they carry on their persons and that declaration would serve as public stigmatization according to your understanding of decorum, yet you offer no remedy if they comply with your legislative wishes.

And we haven't even gotten to the logistical hoops people would have to jump through if you got what you wanted. If someone "open carries" in the winter, will the gun have to be carried outside the winter garments, or will you just require them to remove the garments when they are in your presence? Perhaps they should approach you hat in hand as well.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #43)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:35 PM

44. The vast majority of people who are shot are near a gun at the time: QED

Some few people are shot by stray rounds falling from the sky and things of that nature but it's pretty rare.

I can keep my chances of being shot considerably lower just by not being around guns.

The person carrying a gun doesn't trust me, I don't trust him. He wishes to carry the gun to allay his fear of me, I wish to remove myself from his presence to allay my fear.

Why is the gun owner's fear of me more rational than my own fear of the gun owner?

Why does only one side get to have their security blanket?

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #44)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:48 PM

45. The safety blanket you demand

is for your ego and sense of decorum, not your body. We all want to live in a world without violence or reminders of it. In the United States, freedom from violence or reminders of it is pretty much the case for the vast majority of us. But if someone wants to shoot you in the middle of your latte at Starbucks, it won't matter whether you see the gun or not. He will be able to access it and blow your brains out with it before you can do anything.

There is no evidence that "that guy" doesn't trust you. Nor is there any reason for him to do so. What have you done to deserve his trust? It's not fair, or even possible, for the government to create a zone of comfort around your personal sensibilities or your interpretation of the intentions of others.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #45)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:59 PM

46. I wear seat belts and drive defensively, I wear a helmet when biking and ride as safely as possible

I do these things even though I'm no more likely to die in a car accident or biking than I am by gunshot

Are my precautions against car and bike accidents for my ego and sense of decorum?

Of course the gun owner doesn't trust me, how is he to know I'm not out to beat and rob him, maybe even shoot him in cold blood?




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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #46)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:05 PM

47. All reasonable precautions...

Now demanding the roadway be cleared in advance of your presence would be a bit much.

You are taking those precautions, not demanding others alter their appearance to satisfy your concerns.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:17 PM

48. I'm asking to be allowed to steer around a known hazard

Not around guns, don't get shot, simple as that.

You wouldn't want to drive down the road where there were invisible things it was deadly to run into, I just want to know where the known deadly hazards are on the road, no one else has to move, I'll steer around them all on my own.

I see you've given up on the legitimate fear tactic and have added a nitrous system to the goalpost moving motors, I shall endeavor to keep up.



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #48)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:36 PM

49. "invisible things it was deadly to run into"

Cars have headlights.

Or is this your neighborhood?



Shit, you might want to move.

I don't have to move goalposts since you are afraid to approach them.

I'll ask you again. What right do you have to demand others show you what they carry on their persons? What remedy do you offer in return for that concession?

And here's another just for fun. If you're that afraid, why don't you just wear Kevlar? Me, I'm not afraid of those around me.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #49)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:57 PM

50. You were the one who brought up the road metaphor and first spoke of fear

It really is like a sexual organ isn't it?

Something to be hidden away and covered up, like a burqa covers up a woman's body and face, something else you brought to this conversation.

Evidently the talisman loses power if it seen by others.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #50)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:03 PM

52. What right do you have to demand the talisman be exposed? nt

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Response to rrneck (Reply #52)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:28 AM

68. ...

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #68)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:30 AM

82. Still dodging.

Can you produce a reason why you have a right to legislate how someone looks? How they dress?

If someone is carrying a gun in winter, will you require them to remove their coat in your presence? Or should they just wear something that is always visible that will let you know what they have? How will you enforce that law?

Will you require them do declare the contents of their pockets in your presence? How will you enforce a law like that?

The truth is, you don't have to like it, but there is nothing you can do about it. Not legally. Not morally. Not logistically.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #82)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:57 AM

92. I already said you can have a concealed gun if you're nude

Is there some reason nudity is objectionable to you?

If you are carrying a gun then proper accessories for safe handling are necessary, multiple holsters would only cost a fraction of what a decent modern handgun does and would allow swapping of the gun from inside wear to outside in mere moments. I would think that a gun buried inside multiple layers of clothing would be of little use in a personal emergency anyway. "Oh, hold on while I get my gun out please Mr Robber".

We have already established that one excellent way to avoid getting shot is not being near guns, staying away from people with guns is rational safety precaution on the level of wearing seat belts in a car, odds are you aren't going to have a collision but you put the belt on anyway if you are smart.

Why is your fear of me more rational than my fear of you?











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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #92)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 01:00 PM

105. Atmosphere

I'm not afraid of you or somebody wearing a gun. I don't think what somebody is wearing, or not wearing, is necessarily indicative of their character or their intentions toward me or anybody else. A single aspect of their appearance is a part of an overall evaluation of what kind of person they are assuming I take time to make that evaluation. I don't waste a lot of time "sizing up" everyone that falls into my field of vision.

The usual "gun talk" is tiresome, but let's get it out of the way. Your suggestion regarding multiple holsters is absurd. A holster requires a belt (and a good one) so you are suggesting a winter coat have a belt outside for a holster so you will have the privilege of viewing it, and another holster for inside clothes. That won't work, so please try and keep the conversation above such absurdity.

Now for the inevitable car analogy. If you are worried about being around dangerous things while you are in a Starbucks (hey, a twofer analogy) how many cars did you walk in front of to get into the place? Any one of them could have run you down with no warning.

But this conversation isn't really about public safety, it's about atmosphere. You are demanding others create a particular atmosphere around you, a space otherwise known as the commons, for your emotional satisfaction. And you are advocating that courtesy be codified into law. Your desires are no different from the demands that women wear burkas or people not walk around naked. You don't have the right to compel others to create an atmosphere of emotional security around you. You don't have the right to compel the random people that cross your field of vision to offer guarantees of your personal safety. You simply don't have the right to demand others look any particular way to suit your personal prerogatives.

Here's a test. Next time you are in a public place station yourself near the door and ask everybody that walks through it what their intentions are toward you. If you feel uncomfortable doing that, you should feel uncomfortable sub contracting that task to the government.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #105)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 01:58 PM

106. Have you thought about hiring yourself out as a projector?

You were the one who brought cars and roads into this entire conversation in the first place and now you're complaining about "the inevitable car analogy".

You also claimed that not being free to hide a gun on your person was the same thing as forcing a woman to wear a head to toe burqa.

Do you even read your own rhetoric? Stop whining, I don't want to take your damn guns away from you I just want to be able to avoid both them and you.

Wear your gun proudly, it's your constitutional right, what the fuck are you ashamed of?

You've moved the damn goalposts so far the Hubble Space Telescope couldn't find them.




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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #106)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 02:33 PM

107. Well lets have an oldie but goodie gungeon format

46. "I wear seat belts and drive defensively, I wear a helmet when biking and ride as safely as possible"

First mention of cars.

free to hide

Why would they want to hide anything from you? Why would they care? Why would they even notice you? It's not about you, so your subject line is more than a little ironic. Why would a woman want to hide her figure from you by wearing a pup tent? Why would anyone want to expose themselves to you by not wearing clothes at all?

Nobody cares what you think.

I don't want to take your damn guns away from you I just want to be able to avoid both them and you.

I can't help it if you want to avoid those people. That's your problem.

Wear your gun proudly, it's your constitutional right, what the fuck are you ashamed of?

What makes you think I carry? Again with the projection.

You've moved the damn goalposts so far the Hubble Space Telescope couldn't find them.

Really? Here's a little sub thread review.


Do you realize you'd be legislating how people look?

I don't understand the impulse to legislate decorum.

what right do you have to know what other people carry in their pockets?

Since the OP wants to require people to reveal the contents of their pockets so that he can see them, which is to say regulate how they look, you should be able to find a reason to require them to conceal their bodies or any part thereof.

Forcing people to expose what they carry on their persons is the codification of a personal preference that has no utility in the real world beyond stigmatizing people because you don't trust them.

(FS)It would be illogical to trust someone who clearly doesn't trust me

Can he trust you to save him if he gets assaulted?

(FS)If he wears the gun outside his clothes no one is going to assault him in the first place An armed society is a polite society, problem solved.

We were talking about trust. You don't trust him to carry a gun. If he gives up his gun, can he trust you to save him if he gets assaulted?

"polite enough to let me know. "

So you are back to legislating decorum. Why does your understanding of decorum define moral responsibility?

You want to be able to see the gun because you don't trust people who carry guns to not shoot you. Yet you refuse to produce evidence to support your suspicions. You would have us legislate what people wear to satisfy your lack of trust in others by defining proper dress in public, yet you refuse to even consider your responsibilities to others by demanding those requirements. You would compel others to declare what they carry on their persons and that declaration would serve as public stigmatization according to your understanding of decorum, yet you offer no remedy if they comply with your legislative wishes.

The safety blanket you demand is for your ego and sense of decorum, not your body. We all want to live in a world without violence or reminders of it. In the United States, freedom from violence or reminders of it is pretty much the case for the vast majority of us. But if someone wants to shoot you in the middle of your latte at Starbucks, it won't matter whether you see the gun or not. He will be able to access it and blow your brains out with it before you can do anything.

There is no evidence that "that guy" doesn't trust you. Nor is there any reason for him to do so. What have you done to deserve his trust? It's not fair, or even possible, for the government to create a zone of comfort around your personal sensibilities or your interpretation of the intentions of others.

Now demanding the roadway be cleared in advance of your presence would be a bit much. You are taking those precautions, not demanding others alter their appearance to satisfy your concerns.

I'll ask you again. What right do you have to demand others show you what they carry on their persons? What remedy do you offer in return for that concession?

What right do you have to demand the talisman be exposed?

Can you produce a reason why you have a right to legislate how someone looks? How they dress?


You've tried to move the legendary goalposts behind cars and trust and I have spend this subthread dragging you back to the subject at hand which is the fact that you have no right to legislate how people look.

These subthreads are entertaining little narratives, don't you think?





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Response to rrneck (Reply #107)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 03:03 PM

109. There is legislation on how people look in nearly every community in the US

That is the fact you have been avoiding through this entire exercise.

Here's your post and my very first reply.

Do you realize you'd be legislating how pepole look?

Do you really think that's a good idea?


Only outside the home

Something that's already done unless you live in a nudist camp.


So yes, moving the goalposts is exactly what you've been doing.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #109)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 03:31 PM

110. Are laws against nudity justified?

Is your desire to compel open carry justified?

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Response to rrneck (Reply #110)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 03:45 PM

111. Just the facts ma'am.

I'm dealing with facts here and the facts are that how people look has long been a matter of legislation and it's damn near universal.

Whether I think laws against nudity are justified or not is immaterial, it's about as well established as a fact can get that they exist.

The overwhelming social agreement is that appearance can be legislated to at least some extent. Where that extent might extend is a matter of degree, not kind.

I think the arguments that I have made on this thread are as true as I can make them, I don't necessarily agree but I wanted to see how far I could go with the concept.

Mandatory open carry with fairly severe penalties for deliberate concealment would solve a lot of our problems with guns I think.

ETA: My point really is that mandatory open carry would allow for community standards, in the big city people who are carrying likely would be shunned in my experience, they would tire of that pretty quickly if normal humans. In rural areas where guns are thought of differently there would be no social stigma.

Problems solved as far as I can see.





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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #111)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:22 PM

140. But that's not what I asked you.

I asked you if laws against public nudity were justified. I could just as easily have asked you if laws mandating burkas were justified. Or if the sign at the sandwich shop mandating shoes and a shirt was justified. All of those social customs exist, and some of them are mandated by law. Some of them are reasonable and justified, some are not. The fact those laws exist is not germane.

As far as public safety goes, not only does mandating public carry not solve any problems if they exist, it doesn't even address them.

Part One: Icky Gun Talk

Whether or not a gun is carried open or concealed is immaterial when it comes to the mechanics of self defense either by the person carrying or the person targeted. You can draw a gun just as fast from under a sport coat as from open carry, and either way if somebody wants to shoot you it won't matter if you see him wearing the gun or not.

On the other hand demanding people fuss with a handgun to satisfy your sense of public decorum is more of a danger to public safety than concealed carry. The only time you should touch a firearm in a holster is when your life is threatened and you need to shoot somebody. The use of a gun, like any other physical interaction in the world, requires the development of muscle memory through practice. The simpler the physical interaction, the easier it is to master and employ. Thus, drawing a gun from a particular spot and under particular circumstances is the safest and most effective way to use it. When you place arbitrary restrictions on the way people carry a gun, you are demanding they adjust the way they dress and requiring them to fuss with the gun unnecessarily to conform with conflicting social norms. It's more dangerous for everybody concerned.

There is a youtube video at the end of this post if you want to check it out.

Part Two: What the conversation is really about.

Your concerns have nothing to do with public safety, the disparity of force, the mechanics of self defense with a firearm, tactical response to an active shooter, or the price of eggs in Germany. The problem you are trying to solve is one of public decorum. And your objective is to stigmatize people you don't like. Your mistake is you have no rational reason to dislike them.

While you say you don't care about public nudity, your use of that for an example is telling. Illegal nudity in public is called indecent exposure. You obviously feel that the sight of a firearm on someone's belt is indecent, but rather than demanding it be concealed you want everyone to see it because people who carry a gun in an urban area aren't "normal". And you want community standards to coalesce around disapproval for people who, according to you, are "not normal".

But how do you know they aren't "normal"? If you are interested in facts, here are some. You don't know where that person with the gun on his or her belt was before you saw them. You don't know where they are going after they leave your sight. You don't know if they are living under some threat that requires a protective order. You simply don't know the circumstances of their life or why they may feel the need to carry a gun. In fact, the only fact about your position is you don't have any.

Now, I said you had no rational reason to dislike someone carrying a gun. I didn't say you had no reason. Your reasons for disliking public carraige of firearms are arational and perfectly legitimate.

Guns have tremendous symbolic power for obvious reasons. Wearing a gun in public is fairly rare in this culture. Hang a gun on your belt and you are shouting some sort of message to everyone that can see it. That message will depend less on why the gun is there than on why people think it is there or why they think you put it there. That's because while you may have only one reason for its presence, those that see it will be able to free associate a whole constellation of assumptions about you that have no basis in fact. It isn't fair to demand people draw attention to themselves that way to satisfy your sense of decorum. It makes no more sense than demanding they be nude.

When it comes to the symbolic power of guns in politics they are a giant flashing neon sign. Guns symbolize everything liberals hate or can't deal with, and everything conservatives love and specialize in. I can't think of anything more polarizing. If you think conservatives are misguided fools and those who are doing the misguiding are lying assholes you are right. But that doesn't mean that someone wearing the conservative totem on their belt is a member of either one of those groups of people. Demanding they display the totem of people you dislike is like pointing to some random stranger on the street and shouting "deluded Republican asshole!"

You are perfectly free to make all kinds of assumptions about someone wearing a gun. You are not free to mandate those assumptions by law.


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Response to rrneck (Reply #52)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 10:31 AM

80. What right do you have

for it to be concealed?

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Response to theKed (Reply #80)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:24 AM

81. Personal privacy.

The same right I have to not have to declare my faith, sexual orientation, political affiliation or any other part of my personal life.

If you need to know something about someone, you have to prove a need for that information.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #81)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:37 AM

85. Safety

The right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Your desire for gun privacy is weaker than my need for safety.

And before you say it, no, not all privacy. The privacy of keeping a murder tool in your pocket. There are plenty of instances where absolute privacy is set aside in the name if law and order. This should be one.

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Response to theKed (Reply #85)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:42 AM

86. Your desire for gun privacy is weaker than my need for safety.

Safety from what threat? If you want to compel behavior, you have to produce proof of need for that legislation beyond your personal likes or dislikes. Where is your proof? After you produce your proof, prove you can enforce whatever regulation you propose. And after you prove that, prove the legislation will be effective.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #38)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:00 PM

94. Your two sentences about trust are the words I have been trying to put together to explain

Last edited Sat Jan 12, 2013, 02:08 PM - Edit history (1)

why I feel people should not hide their guns around me.

"If someone feels the need to be armed in my presence then that is prima facie evidence he does not trust me, it's an insult in fact.

That he doesn't want me to know he's armed is even more damn good reason for me not to trust him."

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Response to rrneck (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:42 AM

7. Heh heh.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:52 AM

10. But it works so well in Hollywood westerns.

And in the towns of Iraq and Afghanistan.

That's the kind of America I want to live in.
Everyone carrying guns out in the open and daily street showdowns and snipers.
Just a dream come true.

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Response to Kablooie (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:58 AM

13. Totally with you. But those towns are supplied with guns mostly from us. Our weapons industry.

Availability isn't going away. The 2nd Amendment isn't going away. Concealed guns carried by criminals isn't going away. Tempers in freewheeling public debate aren't going away. We're stuck with all that. Maybe our squeamish belief that 'only the civilized are unarmed' just might have to go away.

I don't own guns. I just want to know when I'm around people who do.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:58 AM

14. A nit-pick. Concealed carry is compatible with "guns make society more polite"

I don't know that guns make society more polite, but assuming it for the sake of argument, the generalized politeness would come from not knowing who was packing.

Otherwise society would only be polite when talking to an overtly armed person, and feel free to be very impolite to the rest.

My observation is not pro or anti your proposal. Just noting something that jumped out at me.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:07 AM

17. I don't endorse it. My gun owning friends have said it, so I use their rationalizations here...

Like Martin Luther King once said, there are just laws and there are unjust laws. If people felt free to be impolite when guns weren't around, I'd say they're more free from a culture of implicit threat.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:04 PM

53. There you go. Good argument against mandatory open carry. Which seems macho and stupid.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:44 AM

19. Agree 1000%.

I think I should have the right to know who's got a gun.

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Response to FLyellowdog (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:33 AM

20. If we want our 2nd Amendment, we gotta act like grownups about carrying guns.

A concealed gun is a dirty secret that should be open for all adults and children to see. No, not in classrooms.

Then children in the larger public realm could at least have a chance to run for cover.


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Response to ancianita (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:56 AM

22. Oh dear lord.....

Please tell me that's a fake photo.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:53 AM

31. Probably not if it's from Gizmodo. nt

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Response to ancianita (Reply #31)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:38 PM

132. I Go Back to Young Men and Video Games

they think it makes them "cool".....

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Response to redstatebluegirl (Reply #132)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:55 PM

134. Yep. You're right. "Cool" doesn't scare anyone or promise to be one click away from civil war.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #134)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 07:00 PM

135. I have dealt with young people for over 30 years

I can tell you that the culture has changed in the past 10 years. Especially with young men who live for violent movies and games. They do not value life, they are angry and on edge most of the time. I left student services after 30 years last year due to the change in the young people I used to love so much.

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Response to redstatebluegirl (Reply #135)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 07:14 PM

136. Fair enough. I've seen video games relax and decompress kids with violent, angry lives. Two of

them in my life come from the poorest areas of Chicago. They were dirt poor. Traveled through violent neighborhoods. Now they live in Redmond, WA. One is a game beta tester and the other is a project coordinator with Microsoft. The latter visits me every time he's in town. We've taken a road trip together. Their families are still poor. But they've moved on.

My own son's love of gaming led him to computer study, nanotech and biotech study in Australia, business study in Chicago and now community organizing in New Mexico. The average age of gamers in the US is 35.

I just don't buy the video game connection. I think Ars Technica has data on this, as probably does Slashdot.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:54 AM

21. I don't see a need where private citizens need to carry guns in public, period. Open or concealed.

I'm sorry, I just don't see it. I see the whole movement as being bourne out of paranoia and irrational fear, and the fact that there are millions of people packing heat in public contributes little to the overall public safety in this country, I believe.

Listen, I'm actually okay with having a weapon in one's own home provided said weapon is safely secured and is reasonable (I'm sorry, owners of AR-15s with 30 round clips, but you don't need that to keep you safe in your home, nor do you need to stock up with mounds of weapons as if you were Fort Knox.) Personally, I don't have anything, but if there's been a rash of home invasions in the neighborhood, I can certainly see it being reasonable.

But the whole "Let's bring my gun to the streets" thing? Sorry, I see it being more trouble than it's worth. People who may seem like ordinary people are still people, and can be guilty of poor judgment, or rash anger, or both. No need to make a bad situation all the worse.

But....but....but....what about Pearl High School, where the shooter was supposedly stopped by a CCW holder? Except from my understanding, by the time the CCW stopped the shooter, he had already left the school and completed his mission, so the CCW permit holder really didn't contribute anything to stopping the shooting.

Plus I'll see your Pearl High School and raise you a George Zimmerman, thank you very much.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #21)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 03:52 AM

142. We do not live in a socialist country. This is the United States of America.

 

You say you're "actually okay with having a weapon in one's own home provided said weapon is safely secured and is reasonable ('re sorry, owners of AR-15'S WITH 30 round clips, but you don't need that to keep you safe in your home, nor o you need to stock up with mounds of weapons as if you were Fort Knox.) Personally, I don't have anything, but if there's been a rash of home invasions in the neighborhhod, I can certainly see it being reasonable."

You put "a" in bold, implying that you figure a person that chooses to exercise their 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms, only needs one. So is it alright if someone else tells you you can only have one pair of shoes? Or you can only have one pen? Or you can only have one knife in your kitchen?

"Provided said weapon is safely secured" - that would depend on the situation within the building where said weapon is being kept. "and is reasonable" - everyone has a different measure of reasonable. What you think of as excessive someone else thinks of as reasonable. I think an AR-15 with 30 round magazines is reasonable, but an AR-15 with 100 round magazines is a bit excessive.

Now onto the whole "need" thing:

To say someone else does not "need" an AR-15 with 30rd mags would be just like me saying you don't need that suit you're wearing (if that's even a picture of you). A T-shirt and a pair of jeans would clothe you just fine right? Or even just a robe with no underwear or socks. You'd be clothed right? You do not "need" that suit.

Or how about whatever vehicle you may drive for transportation? A 1988 Geo metro, a bicycle, or even your feet, would transport you from point A to point B just fine right? You do not "need" whatever nice car or truck you happen to have.

Or you could live in a dwelling that is 100 square feet or less. That would easily give you a bed, a kitchen, a bathroom and shower and a roof over your head. That's all you "need" right? You do not "need" whatever nice house, apartment, or condo you happen to live in.

It's not always about what you need.
You have that suit because it's what you choose to wear, it's what you want.
You have that nice car or truck that you because it's what you want.
You have that nice house, apartment, or condo rather than a tiny 100 square foot dwelling because it's what you want.

A law abiding peaceful citizen of the United States has that AR-15 with 30 round magazines because it is what said law abiding citizen wants to have. They are well within their rights to own a legal civilian semi automatic firearm, just as you're well within your rights to own whatever clothing, vehicle, and dwelling you want to.

But unlike nice clothing or just a robe, nice vehicle or junky vehicle, nice house or super tiny house... There may come a time when that rifle is actually needed. Be it for a home invasion with several armed individuals entering the dwelling, or if a time comes that the 2nd amendment is actually needed (in a utilize it actively sense.)

The founding fathers weren't idiots. They wrote the constitution to allow for technological advances in firearms and they did not say only a musket is allowed. They also knew a possibility of the people needing to use arms against a tyrannical government could happen at some time in the future. They also knew that a well armed people would, in itself, be a passive deterrent to a tyrannical government because the government would know the people are well armed. That's the beautiful passive effect of the 2nd amendment: the government knows the people are armed, and respects the people.. maybe even fears the people. When the government respects or maybe even fears the people there is liberty. When the people are the ones that fear the government there is tyranny.

The government is afraid of a rather large number of law abiding peaceful gun owners because they know there are a decent amount of well armed citizens in this country today. Instead of just respecting the people as they should; they seek to disarm the people.

Do we "need" AR-15's and 30rd mags right now? Not at this moment at least.
Do we want AR-15's and 30rd mags? Wouldn't have spent the money if we didn't want them, just like you wouldn't have spent your money on those clothes, that vehicle, or that dwelling if you didn't want them.



That's the great thing about this country. It doesn't have to be something we "need" in order for us to have it. We can get things simply because we want them. We can go out and start a buisness if we want to, or we can decide to seek employment in an already established business. We can color our hair pink with purple polka dots if we want to. We can decide who, if anyone, we marry. We can decide how many, if any, children we have. We can decide where in this country we live.

This is America. Land of the free and home of the brave. I'm glad i live in this country of freedom, and no gun owner tells you what you need nor should they try to. Just like you should not try to tell someone else what they need, although you are welcome to have your opinion and you are welcome to express it here. But just because you think someone else doesn't "need" something, does not make it the case.

I would rather have it and never need it, than not have it and end up sitting around (or dead) thinking "gee i sure wish i had it when i needed it".

And you're perfectly free to not exercise your second amendment right, just as you're perfectly free to exercise or not exercise your fifth amendment right if the police ask you questions whether you've done anything or not. Also applies to the first amendment... you're well within your rights to express your opinion and speak your mind, or say nothing at all if you wish. I could keep going but i'm sure you get the idea on that.

It's not about what one person thinks another needs. It's about what a person wants that is within the bounds of the law; and (at least for now) pretty much any civilian semi-automatic firearm, including AR-15, is legal.

Pretty much boils down to what person A thinks person B needs: is irrelevant to what person B wants. If taken farther than just stating your opinion that you dont believe you need an AR-15 or any firearm for that matter,

If taken far enough beyond simply exercising your first amendment right and saying YOU don't feel a need for YOU to have an AR-15 or any firearm at all (which would tie in with exercise or not exercise your 2nd amendment right): then it becomes an infringement upon another person's rights that they should be allowed to exercise just as freely as anyone else.

It's not about what we need in this country until we actually need it. The 2nd amendment is needed everyday in a passive sense (the government knows the people are well armed and respects the people because of that). And i hope it never comes to it, but it is possible that the 2nd amendment become needed in an active sense.

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Response to xXxDSMer (Reply #142)

Sat Jan 19, 2013, 12:44 PM

144. I was about to call you on all the textbook NRA talking points, but it appears you've been PPR'ed.

Damn.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:11 AM

25. Laws about carrying are important but we need to remember what they're for

Laws about concealed or open carry are safety measures. They're not about crime. Forbidding carry won't prevent criminals from carrying, and allowing carry won't lead to citizens stopping criminals. Or at least neither will do so at a rate that rises above noise compared to the safety "signal" of this. The question is how this reduces accidents, and the Type I / Type II tradeoff has to do with compliance rates (you want something that limits gun prevalence while not doing so so severely as to lead to routine flouting of the law).

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:47 AM

28. I agree OC is the more progressive form of carry.

CC to me is just to keep the alarmist from whining.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:26 PM

32. you're a lunatic.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:41 PM

34. Open fucking cary? Concealed carry

How and when did this country become so fucking cowardly?
We all gotta be packin'? It is sooooo dangerous.
Honey, lets go see the re-release of Chitty chitty bang bang at the cineplex. You got your glock?
God damn, what a devolved nation we are turning into.

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Response to rustydog (Reply #34)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:56 PM

35. Who the hell is saying that everyone has to carry a handgun? No. One. Here. Ever.

Given the compelling evidence of 300 million guns, we might have to face that we've been this level of 'devolved' for a long time. It's just that those who do the most talking on national issues haven't prioritized so much attention to the non-participation of gun owners.

I've used the word "cowardly" for a long time but I find that it shuts down sensible policy support from gun owners when I do.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:57 PM

36. I'm much more comfortable with the idea of open carry

and extremely stiff penalties for concealed carry. Criminals can't own one to begin with, and if they conceal carry it, they need to go to jail for a long time. Just as non-criminals should, too.

You can't conceal a rifle. You can't conceal a shotgun. It's pretty damn clear that you have a weapon. Why should a handgun be any different?

If you think you should carry one, let everyone know you are, and be prepared for the consequences of carrying one, too, that includes public shunning by people that don't want you around their kids. It strikes me as pretty cowardly to defend guns due to hunting, but then you turn around and carry a concealed weapon so that no one knows what you are doing. If you are in your home, none of it would matter anyway, so there goes self-defense.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #36)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:03 PM

37. Beyond the privacy boundary of food and self defense, publics have a compelling safety interest in

demanding open carry.

I think that once we get used to the idea of knowing who around us is packing, we'll all feel more comfortable.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:02 PM

51. I think your neighbor is correct. Too much Wild West in your proposal. Won't end well.

I briefly lived in Phoenix Arizona where people walked around with pistols on belt holsters and rifles slung across their backs. It was NOT a healthy environment.

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Response to Matariki (Reply #51)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:15 PM

57. It may seem unhealthy. It certainly doesn't end well for schools and children, does it.

It's certainly not healthy to die by another's stealth use of a deadly weapon, either -- a worldwide problem for women and children.

I was accessing my neighbor's language and imagery to approach her on the unfairness and vulnerability for the unarmed when they are around those who conceal deadly weapons. I reject her language, which I only used as she did to convey a more historical outlook that America has appreciated, which translates today into fair notice to non-owners like me who want to know who's carrying.

Pick your unhealthy environment: the tension of silence and denial in a concealed world, or the tension of noticing what eventually becomes part of one's appearance in an open carry world. One can get over discomfort. Death by stealth, not so much.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #57)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 03:45 PM

112. I don't think the guy who went into Sandy Hook Elementary was hiding his guns

Or the guy that went in to Aurora Movie Theater. Reading accounts these guys just boldly walking in and started shooting. Nothing "stealth" about this:

It is alleged that he then went to his car, which was parked near the exit door, changed into protective clothing, and retrieved his guns. About 30 minutes into the film, police say, around 12:38 a.m., he re-entered the theater through the exit door. He was dressed in black and wore a gas mask, a load-bearing vest, a ballistic helmet, bullet-resistant leggings, a throat protector, a groin protector and tactical gloves. Initially, few in the audience considered the masked figure a threat. He appeared to be wearing a costume, like other audience members who had dressed up for the screening. Some believed that the gunman was playing a prank, while others thought that he was part of a special effects installation set up for the film's premiere as a publicity stunt by the studio or theater management.


Your premise is off completely - these aren't "death by stealth". It's death by access to weapons of mass destruction. Death by access to weapons by completely insane, broken people.

Like I said, having lived in Arizona where people walk around with weapons on belt and back I don't think that's a better alternative. It creates a stupid, macho culture and I'd like to see STATISTICAL proof that gun violence is lower on account of doing so.

You have any evidence to back up your assertion? Because this isn't a language exercise.

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Response to Matariki (Reply #112)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:20 PM

113. I'm not making a premise or an argument. I'm making a proposal with benefits to non-gun owners.


If you want to turn it into an argument, I'd say you're engaging in a language exercise.

Concealment is playing to innocence. If you don't think the AZ atmosphere you lived in was pleasant, perhaps it had more to do with the existence of the guns, period, and you'd just rather not have been reminded of that. If I lived there, I'd probably get used to it. Stupid macho culture exists all over, so guns on a holster doesn't assert anything to me but insecurity.

Obviously criminals open carry at the last moment. No one's reported the details of how the Sandy Hook killer concealed his weapons until the last moment, but I'm sure he wasn't openly brandishing them on his way to the school.

Seeing an armed guard at the door might have made him think twice. One hundred Chicago high schools have them, and none of them or the elementary schools have had armed people get inside them. You know as well as I that mass shootings aren't what my proposal is about. Also, yours isn't a handgun example, is it.

If open carriers had been in the movie theater...forget it...you're intent on calling this stupid. So be it.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #113)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:29 PM

114. Carry through with your imagined scenario

WHAT IF "open carriers" had been in the movie theater?

My guess is that it would have been even more of a blood bath than it was.

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Response to Matariki (Reply #114)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:57 PM

118. Are you kidding? The guy would've been down and more would still be alive.

Less a blood bath than what happened.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #118)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:06 PM

119. Guy had on a LOT of protective gear

and in your imagined scenario everyone would have to be a practiced shot and keeping a level head. NOT real world at all.

My bet is on the bloodbath.

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Response to Matariki (Reply #119)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:20 PM

122. Right. A real representative example of hard-to-stop crazy. But there's always the head.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #113)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:32 PM

115. I'm not "intent on", I AM calling it stupid.

There's a reason the whole 'wild west' thing came to an end.

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Response to Matariki (Reply #115)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:53 PM

117. The Pinkertons.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #57)


Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:07 PM

54. IF you as an American citizen are to be allowed to carry in public,

then it should be VISIABLE for all to see. Criminals will stay away from you with you gun. Right? Isn't that your PURPOSE to begin with? The rest of us will know who you are, and can then STAY AWAY FROM YOU. Don't we have the right of association? Or maybe you don't want to be SHUNNED? If not, then you are nothing but COWARDS.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #54)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:17 PM

59. My ongoing, lifelong sentiment exactly! nt

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:34 PM

60. guns can be shot at somone from a distance

if the gun is in a holster, and someone shoots first, the gun in the holster is of no help

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Response to samsingh (Reply #60)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:43 PM

61. Oh noes! That just crushes my probability argument, doesn't it! Because you use some

"loophole logic," doesn't mean that the vast majority of environments won't be made safer. Quit acting as if every situation has to be perfectly safe before anyone can credibly promote safety for the unarmed.

Reality is what happens to most people most of the time. No handgun policy that promotes openness and transparency should meet the standard of criminal exceptions. It's an unfair standard. Law enforcement and civilian witness and cooperation handle such 'exceptions.'

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Response to ancianita (Reply #61)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:49 PM

62. everyone carrying a gun to satisfy some gun lover's fantasy is pretty silly and scary

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Response to samsingh (Reply #62)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:56 PM

63. I don't know who you mean.Who here are the "gun lovers." Certainly not me. I'm not even a gun owner.

But if i have to live with them, they'd better not be cowardly concealers, is all. Talk about silly and scary!

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Response to ancianita (Reply #63)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 05:58 PM

67. okay you win

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:58 PM

64. I don't have a problem with it.

Assuming the holder has a valid, checked, checked, and triple-checked license to carry, to be shown to a LEO on demand, why not?

I'd rather know the hazards I'm facing, than to always wonder. And I doubt very seriously it would lead to any Shootouts at the Food City Corral.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 05:06 PM

65. How incredibly, positive, and absolutely

fucking stupid.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 05:15 PM

66. You can skip the "fucking" part. I want to hear more about the "stupid" part, please.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:23 AM

69. Here's the problem I see.

So you make open carry the only legal way to carry in public. Fine. But the mugger and the demented killer, in other words, the very people you need to be afraid of, will not give two shits about the law. They will still conceal until such time as their crime is to be perpetrated. So while you're getting all bent out of shape running out of Starbucks because some cowboy has a six-shooter on his hip, real crime could still jump right up and bite you on your oblivious ass at any moment.

It's a solution looking for problem. Kinda comical, really.

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #69)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:31 AM

70. So turning to those openly carrying would be useless? Of course concealers always get the jump

on their prey. Sorry I don't see the comedy.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #70)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:36 AM

71. You mean asking the open carriers to save your ass?

I thought you were going to be avoiding them. Wasn't that the whole point?

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #71)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:45 AM

72. Not at all. I've not said that gun ownership is to be avoided. I see the need for gun ownership.

I don't see any need for concealment by the good guys. Are you saying that saving my ass is something that an open carrier shouldn't bother with?

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Response to ancianita (Reply #72)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:59 AM

73. Maybe I misinterpreted this ...

Then children in the larger public realm could at least have a chance to run for cover.

... as meaning that the purpose of mandating open carry is to allow anyone to avoid the open carrier. If not, what did you mean by it?

Interestingly, my state bans open carry of a handgun, except in the woods while hunting. I think the rationale is that it causes less public unease and pointless "man with a gun" calls to police. I can see points on both sides.

As for saving people's asses, one places oneself in substantial legal jeopardy by using a firearm in self-defense. In my state, you would almost certainly be leaving the scene in handcuffs and should absolutely plan on retaining a lawyer immediately. Even if the shooting is ruled as justified, there is still the possibility of civil action by the person who was shot. So while the defense laws do allow you to intervene on the behalf of another who is being violently assaulted, there remains the personal decision of the extent to which I'm willing to potentially ruin my own life to potentially save yours.

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #73)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 07:07 AM

74. Fair enough. My reference to children is an oblique reference to Newtown. I'm interested in adults

getting used to seeing guns as tools for food and defense more than seeing them as innately evil weaponry. I'm claiming that open carry is the more honest statement toward that end.

Concealment serves no public good. It promotes an air of mystery and danger that foments unnecessary fear among the weak, sick or vulnerable. In my view, concealment mostly serves to make the concealer feel more secure and powerful than s/he really is. Laws that allow CCP pander to that.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #74)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 07:27 AM

75. Not sure if concealment ...

... makes the person feel more powerful. I would think quite the opposite: open carry is public display of power, no?

Also, I'm not sold on the "air of mystery." You make it sound as if everyone is always thinking about who's carrying a gun. I'm not always thinking about it, even though I'm a "gun person."

I don't think that concealment is supposed to serve a public good. I think it's supposed to serve a personal good and not be a public menace. That's the desired balance, anyway.

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #75)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:45 AM

87. My first impulse is to say that OC is a humbler display. And fairer by being honest. No one ever

thinks another is carrying a gun. Until I talk smack after beating someone at pool and they come back, not with my money, but heat. Or they just whip it out in road rage. That definitely serves their good and not anyone's in the pool hall or road.

Come on. We're nitpicking about language and probability when we should just keep an eye on the OC states. Maybe their practice will support my stance or sink it.

e: sorry for the delayed response...

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 07:29 AM

76. Sooooo....

 

Criminals can still conceal their weapon.
Those who are OC can now be seen and shot without any confrontation.
Criminals will be able to determine who has a gun to maybe protect themselves, they will also be able to see who is an easier target by not carrying.

Concealed carry doesn't let criminals know who has a weapon where OC does.

Do you want criminals to have the upper hand by knowing who to stay away from or shoot in the back (OC) and also knowing the easy target without a gun, who cannot protect themselves.

Not a smart idea..

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Response to xoom (Reply #76)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 07:54 AM

77. When I see how much CC's put a stop to criminals, then I'll accept your claim. So far I haven't.

The whole promotion of CC's being people who "protect" is suspect. OC states are testing this claim out.

I'm addressing the air of uncertainty and distrust in the non gun owning population. They have no reason to think that gun owners aren't just one click away from being bad guys themselves.

Until we get stats from OC states, I reject the 'stupid' label. I still say that seeing OC people prevents bad guys from getting the jump on anyone.

Of course every single person, armed or not, can be picked off by determined criminals, but sniper fire is aggressively searched and unrelentingly prosecuted in this country, so I don't get why they'd want to pick off OC's first. Being no longer concealed, they'd be outnumbered and off'd even before cops could arrest them.

It's no more a stupid fantasy than is the promoted CC fantasy of protection.

Until OC states find out, I welcome valid, reliable proofs to the contrary.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #77)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:05 AM

78. You want valid, reliable proofs to prove your hypothical oppinion wrong? Your Op is what you "think"

 

Not proof that it will work.

I never said sniper fire. If a criminal sees one person who is OC with no othes around and shoot that person in the back, all because the person who was OC gave themselves away with no chance to protect themself. Unless they could see behind them or something.

Again I say, stupid.

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Response to xoom (Reply #78)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:37 AM

84. What open carry will do is allow me to determine how far I keep myself from armed people

If I keep a substantial distance away from people that are armed my chances of getting shot drop substantially, QED.

The vast majority of people who are shot are close to a gun at the time when the shooting happens, stay away from guns and those who carry them and you're more likely to get killed by lightning than get killed by a gun.

The gun owner is afraid of me, I'm even more afraid of the gun owner, the gun owner uses the presence of a gun to allay his fear of me, I want to use distance to allay my fear of him.

Why is the gun owner's right to allay his fear more important than my right to allay my fear?





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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #84)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:47 AM

88. YES!! Why is that? Because legal and political bias establish that frame.

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Response to xoom (Reply #76)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:19 AM

79. The victims of most crimes are themselves criminals, so they would be concealed-carrying too

Open/concealed carry isn't a "crime" policy one way or the other, it's a safety policy.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #79)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:31 AM

83. Yes.

Fallible, certainly, but worth trying. OC states bear watching.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:52 AM

89. Anyone openly carrying a handgun in the streets is a threat to society.

n/t

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Response to jpak (Reply #89)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:54 AM

90. If you want to frame it that way, I'll claim that concealed carry is also a threat to society. I

could just as easily interpret it as an honest statement of the carrier's rights. I could more easily trust an open carrier than a concealed carrier.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #90)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 11:57 AM

93. Give me Stand-Your-Ground and Castle Laws so I can shoot them legally

I perceive open carry assholes as threats and want to protect myself from them - without being sued or going to jail.

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #93)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:03 PM

96. If' it's mandatory open carry, what are you going to shoot the open carry assholes with?

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #96)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:07 PM

99. An AR15 with a 100 round clip backed up with a GLock with a 30 round clip

Just like the NRA/GOP/ALEC open-carry gun nut assholes want.

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #99)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:15 PM

101. Practice makes perfect no doubt n/t

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #101)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:27 PM

103. Who needs practice pulling a trigger until the ammo runs out?

duh

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Response to jpak (Reply #103)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:39 PM

104. ...



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Response to jpak (Reply #93)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:04 PM

97. Fine. Have it your way.

I perceive any conceal carry asshole as more likely to be someone to have to protect myself from.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #97)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 12:08 PM

100. Fire at will then.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 02:50 PM

108. Everyone should just wear a suicide vest - problem solved!

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 04:46 PM

116. I get the gist of what you are ...

... driving at, and almost agree, except for one nagging thing:

If ever there was something highly vulnerable to the "law of unexpected consequences," this is one. There are some real fruitcakes walking amongst us, and a fair amount of them are quite enamored with guns and public displays of their "manly man" persona. Given that far and away MOST of them aren't competent enough to hit what they are targeting, collateral body counts comes immediately to mind.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #116)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:18 PM

120. Thanks! I appreciate the possibility of fruitcakes in all kinds of places.

There's a number floating around that 200 lives are saved defensively through gun use this past year. That against the 30,000 who've died by guns.

I like this guy, and the possibility that I could get shot around someone open carrying, as he speculates, still doesn't seem to me to be any greater than if I were around concealed carriers. Again, as a non-owner, I'd just like to know who's packing. If he draws fire, I'd know who to run from or to.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:19 PM

121. Let's just all get the word "idiot" tattooed on our foreheads.

Because in non-idiot countries, when children get shot, the answer isn't LET'S CARRY MOAR GUNZ OPENLY IN ALL 50 STATES.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #121)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:23 PM

123. I'M NOT SAYING MORE! I'm saying that those who wear them out in public should let the public know.

Now let's back off with the gang up and other country comparisons.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #123)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:25 PM

124. I live in a state where you're not supposed to "carry" in public either way.

It just pisses me off that I have to be connected with the other 47 contiguous states by a system of highways.

I can too.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #124)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:44 PM

125. Heh heh. Ya got me. I live in a state that allows both, and the mix is not comfortable

for either armed or unarmed. Sorry about your highway problem.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 05:51 PM

126. Great way to figure out who is unarmed and vulnerable.

Easy victim pickin'.

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Response to dorkulon (Reply #126)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:13 PM

129. Isn't that what criminals do already?

If you're implying that gun carriers are more likely to be criminal in OC states, arrest/conviction stats could verify that. I doubt it. Probably the rate of gun criminality is similar to those of CC states.

If you're implying that OC's are tempted to prey on the unarmed, then you uphold yet another stereotype of gun owners having sociopathic tendencies. If you're saying that they'd draw fire or fire on each other, then I still say that OC states bear watching. If you're saying the whole country would be worse off than it is right now, I'd find that pretty hard to imagine. I'm trying to think through a public safety thing here within some legal parameters.

Just what are you saying? That there's no public decorum when guns are apparent? That only the appearance of respect for law and order really matters to gun carriers, so they should stay concealed? That the prison population would go up over conspicuous gun carrying in the commons?

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Response to ancianita (Reply #129)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 07:50 PM

137. Don't read so much into it.

I'm just saying, the theory behind concealed carry is that it deters crime because you 'never know' who's packing. Open carry gives the hypothetical mugger or whatever an easier selection.

Me, I'd ban everything but single-shot rifles.

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Response to dorkulon (Reply #137)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 07:55 PM

138. Agreed. And handgun manufacturers.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #138)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:01 PM

139. Yeah, that's what I meant.

EVERYTHING but.

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Response to ancianita (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:35 PM

131. Sounds like the Wild West

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Response to Politicub (Reply #131)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:48 PM

133. Fine. I've only been trying to decompress public space and thought the idea might help.

I give up. Here we are.



Still the Wild West, if only we knew who's packing.




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