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Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:41 PM

Fuck it-a serial number in EVERY bullet and a government ammunition exchange...

every bullet-not casing-to have an embedded serial strip on some material,whether metallic or another material,sufficient to identify the original purchaser. When someone is shot a serial strip is either in their body or on the other side of where they were shot. You sign for each batch of bullets and are responsible for where they land. If we can track sudafed then bullets are easy.

Start with small calibers like .22. Once they are available give 1 year to surrender untagged bullets on a 1 for 1 basis for tagged. Failure to do so is a felony. Keep moving up until all ammunition is tagged. If it takes 10 years so be it. If you hold registered ammo you are responsible for where it lands. If that spot is in someone's body and the ammo has not been credibly been reported stolen-felony.

Ammo purchasers of over 500 rounds to prove secured storage and anyone with a stolen ammo report to supply proof of a secured safe or vault before more ammo is sold to them.

Keep your million guns, just let us make sure that if you are a part of a death trail once, you will not be part of it twice.

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Reply Fuck it-a serial number in EVERY bullet and a government ammunition exchange... (Original post)
catnhatnh Jan 2013 OP
Hoyt Jan 2013 #1
ManiacJoe Jan 2013 #8
BlueJazz Jan 2013 #2
Recursion Jan 2013 #24
BlueJazz Jan 2013 #41
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #3
catnhatnh Jan 2013 #5
Recursion Jan 2013 #18
Mojorabbit Jan 2013 #4
catnhatnh Jan 2013 #7
Purveyor Jan 2013 #6
catnhatnh Jan 2013 #9
NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #10
catnhatnh Jan 2013 #11
NYC_SKP Jan 2013 #13
catnhatnh Jan 2013 #28
Recursion Jan 2013 #17
Logical Jan 2013 #12
catnhatnh Jan 2013 #14
Logical Jan 2013 #30
Recursion Jan 2013 #26
Speck Tater Jan 2013 #15
Recursion Jan 2013 #16
Speck Tater Jan 2013 #20
Recursion Jan 2013 #21
Speck Tater Jan 2013 #22
catnhatnh Jan 2013 #23
catnhatnh Jan 2013 #19
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #25
catnhatnh Jan 2013 #27
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #44
krispos42 Jan 2013 #29
catnhatnh Jan 2013 #31
krispos42 Jan 2013 #33
catnhatnh Jan 2013 #37
krispos42 Jan 2013 #38
catnhatnh Jan 2013 #32
krispos42 Jan 2013 #34
flvegan Jan 2013 #35
rl6214 Jan 2013 #36
guardian Jan 2013 #39
HereSince1628 Jan 2013 #40
rrneck Jan 2013 #42
quaker bill Jan 2013 #43

Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:44 PM

1. I like that idea. We'll hear same objections as micro-stamping, but that's much better.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:54 PM

8. That does make pointing out the problems with the physics much easier.

Thanks!

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:44 PM

2. Bullets can split apart and they sometimes go right though. Not sure this would work.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:37 PM

24. Probably not in every case, but it would in some

And I just don't see a downside to this. Nobody's rights are infringed.

The strict liability regime in the OP probably wouldn't hold up in court, but even just the information would help. ("The ammo was stolen? OK, who's had access to your house in that time?" etc.)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 05:37 PM

41. Oh..I think the idea has merit. I would RATHER see bullets made with a certain percentage...

...of metals.
IE: If you could make bullets of of 5 different metal plus have a percentage of each metal varied, then you're
looking at a way to identify a bullet even if it's shattered.

"The Lab did tests and found this bullet was 19 percent copper, 24 percent steel, 29 percent XXX" ...and so on

By making ..say...10,000 bullets of a certain mixture (and 10,000 of an another mixture).. and placing no more than 200 of each, in each state, it would narrow down the shooter fairly well.

Just throwing this out there...

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:45 PM

3. What will the strip be made of?

 

I'm curious how that when the bullet itself is usually mangled upon recover, that an Identifiable strip would be sure to survive.
The strip would probably have to be a small piece of etched steel. And how do you keep reloaded ammo from remaining tag-free?

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:51 PM

5. A few hard metals come to mind...

....for reloaders they could be offered with a single number registered to the reloader. I certainly would be careful about where they went with my number.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:20 PM

18. Microtags survive explosions; I wonder if they could be embedded in there

I've also heard there's a next gen of "nanotag" or whatever that's even smaller but still uniquely identifiable.

And how do you keep reloaded ammo from remaining tag-free?

Personally, people who self-reload aren't a big worry of mine.

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:49 PM

4. Well, my husband makes his own ammunition

One can shoot a hundred rounds in an afternoon at the range. The book keeping logistics of this would be impossible it seems?

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:54 PM

7. Yes that sounds tough....

but once fired at the range, what are the chances that someone would take his fired slug and stick it in a dead body?

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:51 PM

6. That is why it is best to use a shotgun if you are a'killin. Just saying what I was told by an old

mob guy in Detroit (purple gang retiree) many, many decades ago.

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Response to Purveyor (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:58 PM

9. Yep, your right-I got no Magic Bullet...

But I got some fuckin' bullet relief!

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:59 PM

10. How would that have saved the victims in Newtown, CT?

How would that have prevented the shootings, and if it didn't prevent them what would we do with all of these identification tags?

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:09 PM

11. Well Skip, I never mentioned Newtown.

I'm talking about reducing opportunities for gun violence by restricting ownership of ammunition to those willing to take responsibility for where and how it is used. If you are a responsible gun owner you should be more than happy to sign every round you send downrange. If you feel otherwise you are either irresponsible or unwilling to secure your weapons. If I maintained guns and ammo capable of killing I would not find it onerous to make sure they were under my control at all times.

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Response to catnhatnh (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:13 PM

13. I would not have a problem with your approach.

But it would be limited in it's effectiveness just due to a number of factors that I'm sure will be described in replies to your OP.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:02 AM

28. Thanks Skip...

...Actually I think your OK. I'm betting you know your weapons and supplies down to the round. I'm sure my suggestion is not a cure. I only think it might help.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:18 PM

17. Looking past mass shootings is probably a good idea

This would help with a much more common category of murders than mass shootings.

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:11 PM

12. Not one thing you discussed will happen ever! n-t

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Response to Logical (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:14 PM

14. Really???

Do you own a printer? Argue why identifying the purchaser of ammo used in a killing is as bad idea.

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Response to catnhatnh (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:43 AM

30. A technical nightmare! And mass murderers would not care. And 500,000...

Gus are stolen a year and only 12,000 used in murders.

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Response to Logical (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:39 PM

26. I dunno. People like technocratic solutions

I don't think this is a (pardon the term) silver bullet, but I don't think there's any down side to this idea either.

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:16 PM

15. When somebody walks into a theater or a school,

 

shoots the pace up and then gets killed himself, we already KNOW who he is. We don't need serial numbers on his bullets.

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Response to Speck Tater (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:17 PM

16. That's also such a drop in the general gun homicide bucket that it shouldn't be what we're focus on

It would really help the much, much more common case where police find a body with a bullet in it and want to figure out what gun that bullet came from.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:31 PM

20. What about people who reload their own?

 

Casting a bullet is child's play.
Gangs could probably get access to stolen ammo on the black market.
They could probably get ammo from other countries.
Probably the only people with marked ammo would be honest folks who aren't going to shoot somebody anyway.

The thing is, for every problem there is a simple, straightforward, logical answer, that won't work.

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Response to Speck Tater (Reply #20)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:32 PM

21. Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good

Even if half of murders were with hand-reloaded ammo, that's still half it would help without prejudicing anyone's rights whatsoever.

I don't see a down side here.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #21)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:36 PM

22. Yeah, you're probably right.

 

I just think it's too easy to dream up solutions that can't work. I'm just cynical, I guess. But it seems to me like no matter what we try, the bad guys will find a way around it.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:36 PM

23. Thank you-you get it.

Plus, all those rounds lie around for the mass killers because millions of rounds lie around to no purpose. As far as I'm concerned you can have a million as long as you are paranoid enough to guard each one. My problem child has a few thousand or so and will notice (or not) when half (and a rifle or two) go missing...

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Response to Speck Tater (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:27 PM

19. Dude-it ain't about Newtown and yesterday.

It's about from now on. I can't save those children.Lord knows if I could I would. Every bullet in every hand is a possible death. All I say is reset the counter, change the rules, make it better. In my lifetime, were I to own a gun, and were each bullet to be signed with my name, then 10 would be better than 20 and and 100 would be crazy and 1000 insane. Maybe if 1000 people oppose you-you are wrong.

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:39 PM

25. That's never happen because it's ridiculous. Are you trying to lessen mass murders?

If so, that won't do it.

Sounds more like you just want to punish gun owners.

The more people sound like they're waging personal vendettas against a lifestyle they don't approve of, the more people will be turned off to controls that really might help less mass murders.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #25)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:54 PM

27. I never mentioned "mass murders"

I suggested that if each bullet was identifiable as to original purchaser people might behave differently. I want to punish gun owners? How? I never even mentioned any type of firearm. How can identifying your bullet be punishment? Shit,I own and drive a fast car. To drive it thru town it caries an identifying plate just in case I brush against a parked car. You figure firing your handgun or rifle should be anonymous? You sound like an entitled clown. Oh Jesus-they wants to know if my killing shit was involved in a killing! Sorry, yes-I'd like to.

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Response to catnhatnh (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 12, 2013, 08:56 AM

44. The point of the gun legislation is to lessen mass murders. Period.

Any "legislation" proposed just to take things away from other people, or burden them with rules & regs, or cost them money, is merely trying to take away something the proposer disapproves of.

Example: All the rules & regs passed by states to infringe on the right to get an abortion.

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:42 AM

29. So you want to double or triple the price of ammunition?

You do realize that ammunition is mass-produced, right? You do realize that 12 billion rounds a year are bought by Americans? You do realize that this is 5 times the number of burgers that McDonald's sells worldwide, right? And you want each bullet (or all bullets in a box) to have a unique tracking number IN them that matches a number printed on each box?

And you want to start with the single most popular round of ammunition in the world? And you want more government intrusion into private lives for no positive effect?

This will fail the same reason gun registration and so-called ballistic fingerprinting will fail: career criminals won't register their ammunition, and intimate murderers will have so much other evidence against them that the ammunition would be redundant.


Not to mention the simple fact that you are mandating me, an occasional purchaser of ammunition, to assume all responsibility for a registration number THAT I CAN'T CHECK.

The box *says* that the bullets have a certain number in them that is uniquely traceable to me. Does the number on the box match the number on the bullet? I don't know, I can't check!

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #29)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:15 AM

31. Yep-as Neil Young says "Bite the Bullet"

Yea Johnny, a double cheeseburger can kill after 20 years of abuse. Y'all object to be responsible for your ammo??? Just on the off chance that the serial doesn't match, Will those bullets wind up in a friend of mine? You own the killing device and the ammo AND my friend is dead? Tough shit Butch. As always you get a presumption of innocence in a court of law.

Frankly I just walked away for a minute to make sure I was being reasonable and balanced and my answer is Piss Off BIGTIME

AN OCCASIONAL PURCHASER??? What the fuck? Like me with Hot Pockets? Your "occasional" purchase is shit that can kill. And you are somehow Pissed that you could be fucked if the numbers are wrong? Fuckin' SURPRISE-just once you will have to worry more about your bullets than I will.

I have a right to at least know that if some person fires a gun in my presence,whether I survive or not.they will answer for it.

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Response to catnhatnh (Reply #31)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:32 AM

33. I object to stupid useless laws.

This won't hold the people that buy ammunition for gangs responsible. This won't stop heat-of-passion killings, or hold the killers responsible. It will result in people getting arrested for paperwork errors and that kind of stuff.

For far less money we can and should legalize recreational drugs, which would result in an immediate and permanent drop in violent crime rates including homicide. Shit like this won't cut the crime rates; these kinds of laws certainly aren't keeping Chicagoans alive, that's for sure. But it will irritate a fuckload of people. Organized people that vote.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #33)


Response to catnhatnh (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:12 AM

38. No, it won't.

Not that gangs use a whole lot of ammunition, but trust me... fake IDs, "stolen" or "lost" ammunition, etc. Ammo that never got turned in for an exchange.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #29)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:21 AM

32. Double or triple????

Do you need to kill so much or so many that would be onerous?

Suppose, Just for fun, That each bullet cost 5 dollars? Would that change what was worth killing?

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Response to catnhatnh (Reply #32)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:38 AM

34. Reality check

I don't kill things when I shoot. It's called practice and recreation, and yeah, it's onerous. Proficiency requires practice, right? You know, to avoid shooting the wrong person.

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:40 AM

35. I love a word salad.

Want to try again?

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:42 AM

36. Yeah, better ban files and Dremel tools also while you're at it.

 

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 10:56 AM

39. What is the purpose of your proposal?

 

What end result do you hope to achieve?

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Response to guardian (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 11:01 AM

40. Placing chemical identifiers in different batchs of ammunition has been advocated

as a tool to help in forensic linking of ammunition to crimes.

This can be done both to the metals in the bullet proper and the propellant "gun powder".

I doesn't stop the use of the ammunition in a crime, but it has been argued that it would help in the identification and prosecution of crimes with gun violence.

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 05:49 PM

42. All of the problems with tracking guns

will be magnified by a factor of about ten thousand if you try to track the ammunition. There will still be theft, straw purchases, home made stuff, lost ammo that has to be reported. It would be a bureaucratic nightmare.

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Response to catnhatnh (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 05:56 PM

43. Serial numbers will not reduce the damage on impact.

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