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Thu Jan 10, 2013, 08:59 PM

I Was a Paid Internet Shill: How Shadowy Groups Manipulate Internet Opinion and Debate

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by REP (a host of the General Discussion forum).

I am writing here to come out of the closet as a paid shill. For a little over six months, I was paid to spread disinformation and argue political points on the Internet

*snip*

My task? “To support Israel and counter anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic posters.” Fine with me. I had no opinions one way or another about Israel, and who likes anti-Semites and Nazis? Not me, anyway. But I didn’t know too much about the topic. “That’s OK,” she said. “You’ll pick it up as you go along. For the most part, at first, you will be doing what we call “meme-patrol.” This is pretty easy. Later if you show promise, we’ll train you for more complex arguments, where more in-depth knowledge is necessary.”

*snip*

http://consciouslifenews.com/paid-internet-shill-shadowy-groups-manipulate-internet-opinion-debate/1147073/


Why does this not surprise me?

120 replies, 8889 views

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Reply I Was a Paid Internet Shill: How Shadowy Groups Manipulate Internet Opinion and Debate (Original post)
JeffHead Jan 2013 OP
Electric Monk Jan 2013 #1
niyad Jan 2013 #2
RainDog Jan 2013 #20
niyad Jan 2013 #22
arcane1 Jan 2013 #25
Scuba Jan 2013 #3
galileoreloaded Jan 2013 #31
Scuba Jan 2013 #78
freshwest Jan 2013 #45
Luminous Animal Jan 2013 #4
MannyGoldstein Jan 2013 #6
Luminous Animal Jan 2013 #9
MannyGoldstein Jan 2013 #72
KittyWampus Jan 2013 #88
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #96
Bluenorthwest Jan 2013 #103
Nay Jan 2013 #104
MannyGoldstein Jan 2013 #108
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #95
patrice Jan 2013 #5
Confusious Jan 2013 #7
klook Jan 2013 #17
Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #27
freshwest Jan 2013 #46
ellisonz Jan 2013 #63
yodermon Jan 2013 #70
Voice for Peace Jan 2013 #68
freshwest Jan 2013 #71
A HERETIC I AM Jan 2013 #98
klook Jan 2013 #111
A HERETIC I AM Jan 2013 #112
SidDithers Jan 2013 #116
klook Jan 2013 #119
Rex Jan 2013 #85
janx Jan 2013 #8
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #14
janx Jan 2013 #26
SidDithers Jan 2013 #35
freshwest Jan 2013 #75
grahamhgreen Jan 2013 #51
Flatulo Jan 2013 #58
freshwest Jan 2013 #48
janx Jan 2013 #55
freshwest Jan 2013 #65
tblue37 Jan 2013 #80
LineReply .
riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #10
ellisonz Jan 2013 #64
freshwest Jan 2013 #11
klook Jan 2013 #24
janx Jan 2013 #28
klook Jan 2013 #36
janx Jan 2013 #39
klook Jan 2013 #47
janx Jan 2013 #49
freshwest Jan 2013 #76
freshwest Jan 2013 #44
klook Jan 2013 #50
ecstatic Jan 2013 #67
progressoid Jan 2013 #114
klook Jan 2013 #115
Bobbie Jo Jan 2013 #84
DemoTex Jan 2013 #12
Brigid Jan 2013 #74
Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2013 #13
janx Jan 2013 #29
Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2013 #92
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #15
BuelahWitch Jan 2013 #16
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #18
CreekDog Jan 2013 #30
janx Jan 2013 #32
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #79
Autumn Jan 2013 #19
defacto7 Jan 2013 #21
rrneck Jan 2013 #23
SidDithers Jan 2013 #33
whatchamacallit Jan 2013 #37
SidDithers Jan 2013 #38
whatchamacallit Jan 2013 #40
grahamhgreen Jan 2013 #56
MessiahRp Jan 2013 #91
SidDithers Jan 2013 #97
Coyotl Jan 2013 #34
Rain Mcloud Jan 2013 #43
janx Jan 2013 #53
SunSeeker Jan 2013 #41
gkhouston Jan 2013 #110
jtuck004 Jan 2013 #42
Manifestor_of_Light Jan 2013 #52
tblue37 Jan 2013 #86
RB TexLa Jan 2013 #54
CreekDog Jan 2013 #57
RB TexLa Jan 2013 #59
CreekDog Jan 2013 #60
RB TexLa Jan 2013 #61
CreekDog Jan 2013 #62
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #77
Follow The Money Jan 2013 #102
LanternWaste Jan 2013 #89
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #100
AZ Progressive Jan 2013 #93
CreekDog Jan 2013 #69
ellisonz Jan 2013 #66
siligut Jan 2013 #73
tblue37 Jan 2013 #83
grantcart Jan 2013 #101
siligut Jan 2013 #107
ellie Jan 2013 #81
snooper2 Jan 2013 #82
karpool Jan 2013 #87
kimbutgar Jan 2013 #90
GETPLANING Jan 2013 #94
Nay Jan 2013 #109
Follow The Money Jan 2013 #99
Kurovski Jan 2013 #105
SidDithers Jan 2013 #106
Kurovski Jan 2013 #117
bvar22 Jan 2013 #113
randr Jan 2013 #118
REP Jan 2013 #120

Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:03 PM

1. Some try to be "undercover" but some are quite open about it

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:08 PM

2. hey, where do I get a job like that? spending all day getting paid to write stuff online?

oh, darn, there is that truth thingy, isn't there?

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Response to niyad (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:38 PM

20. my first thought too - where can I sign up to do that liberally?

but the things I would support don't have a ton of money, usually, to put toward their causes.

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Response to RainDog (Reply #20)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:47 PM

22. tell me about it--I lobbied for years, didn't make a dime (of course, I was working for women's

rights. . .)

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Response to niyad (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:09 PM

25. My wallet's biggest complaint is that I have scruples

I think I could do a great job of being paid by righties to promote the left right under their noses. But it would involve too much muck.

I guess it's not my scruples that hinder me, it's my intolerance for wading!

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:11 PM

3. Paid shills backed by sophisticated psychology. Scary shit.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:22 PM

31. You have no idea...

 

knowledge exist that would blow your mind re: the ability to persuade. Closely held, but very real.

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Response to galileoreloaded (Reply #31)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 05:55 AM

78. I'm learning. Now reading Drew Westen's "The Political Brain". Very interesting read.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:57 PM

45. Also advanced computer resources. They can shell post and get around spam filters, etc. Very fast.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:12 PM

4. Interesting...

Of course, we know that they are out there and this bit I've seen now and again with no documentation from the accuser when asked:
Sometimes I had to simply lie and claim a poster said something or did something “in another thread” they really hadn’t said or done




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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:16 PM

6. This happens to me on a daily basis

Today, for only the second time ever on DU, a poster actually apologized for saying I did something that I hadn't. Dozens of other times they simply slink off, tell me they know what I *really* meant even if my words said something else, try to change the subject, etc.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:21 PM

9. Good on you for extracting apologies rare as it has been.

accusers usually disappear.

I had a post hidden on a complete fabrication.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:29 AM

72. I deserve no credit

I've pretty much stopped asking for apologies. The request tends to trigger a wave of nasty.

In this case, the poster just spontaneously said "oops, sorry, don't know what I was thinking".

Refreshing!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:43 PM

88. Your post sounds kind of paranoid. You think shills focus on you? Really?

You are that influential?

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #88)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:59 PM

96. they focus on posters who contradict dominant narratives. posters like m. goldstein. your post

 

pretending that goldstein imagines he's important exemplifies the kind of tactics used.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #88)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:27 PM

103. Manny's post said absolutely no such thing. He said that daily, people claim he said something he

did not and that apologies for that sort of thing are very rare. Example will be played out here. You claimed Manny said that shills focus on him, and you did so with full snark a snapping, when Manny's post said nothing of the sort. Will KittyWampus apologize or will the point be proved again? We shall see.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #88)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:29 PM

104. Manny regularly gets whacked by some very, ahem, suspicious posters, some with low

post counts and some with high. It's especially noticeable with him (I don't know why) but it happens to a number of posters. It's not his imagination.

Hi, Manny!

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #88)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:42 PM

108. I await your apology for doing EXACTLY what I wrote about. nt

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:59 PM

95. +1. & creepy.

 

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:15 PM

5. Of course, and imagine the screen-shots they turn in for pay. nt

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:17 PM

7. How do we know he's not a double shill?

Being paid to say he was paid to be a shill?

Huh? Got any answers for that? Huh?

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Response to Confusious (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:35 PM

17. How do we know YOU're not a TRIPLE shill?!1!/?!

Being paid to say a shill is a double shill?

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Response to klook (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:11 PM

27. Hmmmm. I think someone is paying you to claim that. (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:59 PM

46. All of you in this subthread are suspects now.






Oops, I posted here, too...




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Response to freshwest (Reply #46)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:52 PM

63. "Oops, I posted here, too..."

Only a quintuple shill covering up for the shilling of another shill's shill of a shill would shill like this. Shill.

Whoops

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #63)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:16 AM

70. that does it, you're all fired.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #46)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:03 AM

68. you people are all being paid to keep the rest of us from getting anything done.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #68)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:25 AM

71. Wait, is the check in the mail? How about direct deposit? Damn, I miss out on all the goodies...

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Response to klook (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:07 PM

98. "If we're on film, there must be someone filming us." "My God, Betty, you're right!"

Cut immediately back to jungle.
First Explorer Great expedition ...
Third Explorer All that'll be left of us will be a map, a compass and a few feet of film, recording our last moments...
First Explorer Wait a moment!
Fourth Explorer What is it?
First Explorer If we're on film, there must be someone filming us.
Second Explorer My God, Betty, you're right!
They all look around, then gradually all notice the camera. They break out in smiles of relief, come towards the camera and greet the camera crew.
Third Explorer Look! Great to see you!
First Explorer What a stroke of luck!
Camera Crew Hello! ...
First Explorer Wait a minute!
Fourth Explorer What is it again?
First Explorer If this is the crew who were filming us . .. who's filming us now? Look!
Cut to another shot which includes the first camera crew and yet another camera crew with all their equipment.

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Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #98)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:06 PM

111. Ha -- sounds like a Twilight Zone episode (n/t)

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Response to klook (Reply #111)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:20 PM

112. Good Ol' Monty Python's Flying Circus, ....

Episode 29, 3rd season. "The Money Programme"

Original air date 2/11/1972

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Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #112)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:58 PM

116. Gotta love the Youtube...





Sid

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Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #112)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 05:03 PM

119. Aha, good stuff

The Lost World of Roiurama, I see -- not familiar with that one.

Fitting for this thread that the next bit is "The Argument Sketch."

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Response to Confusious (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:33 PM

85. How do we know you are not one too!

DUM DUM DUM!

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:20 PM

8. I'm not familiar with conscious life news, but

the situation described would not surprise me.

There's an online "news service"--can't remember the name offhand--that pays people peanuts to write and submit propaganda of different stripes. I've seen ads for "writers" from it. Maybe someone here knows its name.

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Response to janx (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:32 PM

14. Conscious Life News will post any old crap, looking at it

eg a claim that the US government has been manipulating the weather for decades; that secret societies control the world; that Alex Jones' gun arguments are right; and more bollocks. Try their 'editorial guidelines':

CLN facilitates a diet of high-vibrational information.
Full and transparent attribution will be given for all authors and content sources, along with hyperlinks when applicable.
Articles should inform readers of the truth, but we do not spread fear porn.
Site content should promote and spread information and perspectives that are empowering and stimulate readers in constructive directions.
The aggregate content on CLN will maintain a balanced or positive polarity. Negatively charged articles, while at times important, will, when possible, be counterbalanced with additional content that is proportionately uplifting/empowering.
...

http://consciouslifenews.com/editorial-guidelines/


I'd believe a random DUer who claims something without any evidence outside their post before I'd believe something on 'Conscious Life News'.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:10 PM

26. Thanks, Muriel. I always check but had to bug out to the store.



High vibrational, positive polarity, etc.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:39 PM

35. Even worse, the original article is from Above Top Secret...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:35 AM

75. HOLY SHIT! Who posted the OP? Must be one of THEM! You know, THEY!

We could have had whirled peas instead of this.

But noooooo!



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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:08 PM

51. Well, ms vocal strangler, doesn't that make you suspect?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:28 PM

58. I thought the same thing when I perused their site.

Who gives a shit what random people on the Internet think? Real political special interest groups hire PR firms to improve their brand image.

I think it's just intellectual laziness to accuse people of being paid shills just because they have a different perspective on an issue.

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Response to janx (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:01 PM

48. Someone posted about that - an online generator of essays.

Before that there was a story of returning military contractors doing the work when they came back to the States, to disrupt discussions against military spending and stop a consensus being built.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #48)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:13 PM

55. I wish I could remember the name of it--

not sure if it's the same one you are talking about, but might be.

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Response to janx (Reply #55)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:53 PM

65. I remember reading them and posting on them.. But My Posts doesn't go back that far.

Last edited Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:42 AM - Edit history (1)

The essay generator was a more recent post. Just put in any words and it makes an entire essay:

http://www.essaygenerator.com/essay.php

Since this is free thing and not copyrighted, here is what that gave me just now. I've typed in words before, this time it didn't see one, so:

"You forgot to type in a topic, so we'll use 'snow'.

An essay on snow


The subject of snow is a controversial issue. I really, really like snow. While much has been written on its influence on contemporary living, its influence on western cinema has not been given proper recognition. Inevitably feelings run deep amongst the upper echelons of progressive service sector organisations, who form the last great hope for our civilzation. Complex though it is I shall now attempt to provide an exaustive report on snow and its numerous 'industries'.

Social Factors


There is cultural and institutional interdependence between members of any community. When Sir Bernard Chivilary said 'hounds will feast on society' he borrowed much from snow. Difference among people, race, culture and society is essential on the survival of our world, however snow irons out misconceptions from our consciousness.

Recent thought on snow has been a real eye-opener for society from young to old. It breaks the mould, shattering man's misunderstanding of man.

Economic Factors


Our world is driven by supply and demand. We will study the Inter-Spam model, a lovely model.

Market
Value
Of
Gold

..................snow

It is apparent from the graph that the influence of snow is strong. What is the secret to its strength? In spite of the best efforts of The World Bank the market value of gold has always depended upon snow to a certain extent, but now more that ever. The financial press seems unable to make up its mind on these issues which unsettles investors.

Political Factors

No man is an island, but what of politics? Comparing the general view of politics held by the poor of the west with those of the east can be like comparing pre and post war views of snow.

It is always enlightening to consider the words of a legend in their own life time, Noah B. Adger 'Political idealists must ideally deal, for I daily list my ideals politically.' This quotation leads me to suspect that he was not unaccustomed to snow. It speaks volumes. Perhaps the word which sums up the importance of snow to politics is 'participation'.

One of the great ironies of this age is snow. Isn't it ironic, don't you think?

Conclusion

In summary, snow parades along man's streets and man waves back. It establishes order, it stimulates and is a joy to behold.

Here with the final word is Hollywood's Ozzy Poppins: 'I love snow? Yes! Hurray for snow!'

Sir Bernard Chivilary - Interestingly... - 1904 Badger Books

Adger - Politics Per Day - 2000 Jinder Publishing

Sham Magazine - Issue 124 - Monkey Books "

To experiment, insert a word. You'll be surprised, it will change some of it to make it different. In the experiment I did, I used a person's name and the result was actually pretty funny:

http://www.essaygenerator.com/

It doesn't really say anything, just makes the appearance of a somewhat coherent discussion. I see that a lot online, where a few key words are used the way spambots do.

When I see a thread go that way, and everyone is going WTH? with a post, I think that's it. But it's never actionable, just sounds obtuse.

A sure sign to me is how these posts or OPs are made and the poster or author NEVER comes back to join in the discussion.

I'm not talking about 'news' items that stand by themselves, but OPs, and they just plant the seed of dissension or despair or distraction -- and if asked to respond, they never do.

I see some of these post every week by certain posters- hey, a troll's gotta make a living, huh. And they use different causes to divide us, but they are only saying in essence, Obama and Democrats and the Government is bad.

No use getting mad at them than getting mad at the lesser talking heads of media. They read the scripts handed to them, that they act out for the viewers. Might as well have animated robots do the news. Ain't nobody home, you know?

Now back the military contractor infiltration, I did a DU search and couldn't get it, but it was on DU2, so that may be the problem. The story of the guy who was outted was on DU2. too.


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Response to freshwest (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:17 PM

80. You see such airy nonsense in online discussions--but unfortunately,

I often encounter it in my students' writing!

I don't mean to imply that they are using that site, but that they are so accustomed to cranking out nice sounding but completely meaningless sentences and essays at the last minute and still getting high grades on them all through high school that by the time they show up in my college English classes, they don't even realize any more that such BS is not good writing.

I often hear from students that similarly awful essays they have submitted are exactly the sort of stuff they would gave gotten an "A" or even "A+" on in high school.

I don't even blame their high school teachers, because I know they are under intolerable pressure from parents, administrators, and students to make sure their attempt to maintain something resembling standards doesn't destroy some kid's GPA--and thus their entire life.

I feel that kind of pressure, too, and even though I probably resist succumbing to it better than most, I have, nevertheless, softened my grading standards significantly over the years--just not as much as most of the teachers I know at all levels of education.

It's just that I don't feel I have a right to grade my students in a way that is so far out of step with the way that most of their peers are being graded, since they are in competition with those who are getting "A" and "B" grades for truly lousy writing.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:21 PM

10. .



Well this should be good.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:53 PM

64. ^^^^^^^^^^

Clearly, this poster is a paid internet shill. Pass that good stuff

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:30 PM

11. This was reported on DU back in 2010 and it's still going on.

I work to determine the intent of the poster - what is their purpose in posting something - what does it say about their beliefs?

And the result from what they are advocating - no matter how it is clothed, I look in real world terms and find the results of most frightwinger posts from the left or the right, do nothing to get people to work within the government we have.

They do not offer solutions, only despair/ disgust, so they are promoting the Koch libertarion view that it must all be swept away. They never say what is going to be so great when it is.

Either they are being fooled by fearmongers or the libertarian pundits pretending to be liberal, or they are plants. I regard ssome people here as successful trolls who are paid to do it. It was said that was the case with BBI on DU3.

I remember the time when the forum members on DU2 sought out, as a member here on DU3 did with emilyg, other sources linked to the poster to see what was up. They followed a photobucket account to find what he was saying about DU and how he was paid to post here.

There was another recently, MarineDem, I think it was, outted by someone following his account here as well. But many object to this form of self-regulation of DU by trollhunters.

I don't know what is going to be done about this, don't know if anything can. I've seen other forums shut down by people who were likely paid, as their resources to disrupt were not that of a typical poster. They only did it to liberal posters and forums until they vacated. They left the boards dead, no one wanted to come back there.

JMHO.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:08 PM

24. One of the most common disruptor tactics is "Let's you and him fight" posts.

... or as I like to call them, "another flaming bag of dog poop on DU's doorstep."

Somehow I missed the departure of erstwhile DUer emilyg -- following some links, it's amazing to see that this person continues to have a rightwing blog (festooned with many dumbass posts) under the same user name! ...Hubris, I guess.

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Response to klook (Reply #24)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:12 PM

28. Good heavens--

The same user name?

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Response to janx (Reply #28)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:39 PM

36. Yeah, apparently...

on an obscure blog, but was finally outed. Last DU post here. There's some intriguing info in the thread if you're interested.

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Response to klook (Reply #36)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:49 PM

39. You HAVE to see what's up on her blog now!!!

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Response to janx (Reply #39)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:00 PM

47. OMG!!

I hadn't seen that!

File under Libertarian Softcore.

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Response to klook (Reply #47)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:03 PM

49. She is penning her way

through the landscape of Libertarian eros!

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Response to klook (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:50 AM

76. OMGawd! Reminds me of Dittohead wingnut gal who posted her fantasies of being diddled by...

Rush Limbaugh!

No shit!

Think Walrus love!


And her wingnut gals all said they wanted to have sex with the BFI too...



Sorry about that folks, but it was the kind of thing you never forget, like a wreck on the freeway...


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Response to klook (Reply #24)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:55 PM

44. I seem to remember that posting flamebait got OPs or posts deleted in DU2. Less tolerance.

I confess that early on I used to tell people to fight if out on a thread when on a jury- because i figured that they were having a grudge fight unrelated to the thread, but now see it differently.

Some like to see the troll or disruptor knocked down by other DUers, and sometimes it is a way of learning. But they make some threads useless. Threads only have a short life span, and if they go off track badly, they die off.

I also confess to posting things to make people laugh, probably too much at times. I try to keep the argument light when I have someone who wants that and hope it's not trollish.

A really serious thread, no, I won't do that out of respect to the author, though. I was glad to see emilyg go, but never talked to her. She was always negative, only injected put downs of Obama, etc. to thread. That website said it all.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #44)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:08 PM

50. You and I have much in common, it seems, freshwest



I don't like seeing good threads destroyed by a troll trying to start a circular firing squad, either.

And I have been known to crack wise at moments some might deem inappropriate myself.

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Response to klook (Reply #24)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:59 PM

67. that's really great news

Most of her posts were insensitive and racist.

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Response to klook (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:51 PM

114. I too missed her departure.

Wasn't she previously MIRTed and then re-instated?

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Response to progressoid (Reply #114)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:55 PM

115. Dunno -- Never really paid her much attention, to tell you the truth. (n/t)

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Response to freshwest (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:27 PM

84. Exactly this. nt

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:31 PM

12. Critical Thinking ..

Don't log on without it.

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Response to DemoTex (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:30 AM

74. You win this thread.

That is all.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:32 PM

13. When I first started getting online, I was on the AOL chat room a lot...

There, I came to know some people. One of the people I go to know was a man who was being paid by a right wing group to "represent" the right wing point of view. He caused a lot of trouble, and when I spoke to him I didn't let on that I would give him away. However, I wrote everyone left wing in the chat room and e-mailed them our conversation. Needless to say, he abandoned his ID and returned with a different one. HOWEVER, because he hated me for what I had done, he gave himself away right away because of the things he said to me, and so I began addressing him by the name he had had previously. Then that ID disappeared, and for a while I figured he'd left, but alas, no. He had appeared by a different ID and was trying to stay away from me. One day he could take it no longer and said some ugly things to me and once AGAIN I figured out it was him, and so on.

Right wing shills are all over the place. I'll bet they get paid nicely. Or maybe they're idiots, and they do it for very meager wages.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #13)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:15 PM

29. Or, sometimes

for no wages at all.

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Response to janx (Reply #29)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:50 PM

92. True lol nt

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:33 PM

15. It's more exhilarating when you do it for free. Like sex.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:33 PM

16. Sometimes they're very easy to spot

Especially the ones who get paid by the word.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:36 PM

18. First published in the AboveTopSecret Forum, March 2012

If you follow the link. And yes, they are a bunch of kooks who will believe or say anything. If someone wanted some credibility, they'd talk to a journalist about this, not say it anonymously in one of the places on the internet least connected to reality.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #18)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:19 PM

30. you really don't want us to believe this is happening

even though there is more than one source for the occurrence.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #30)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:32 PM

32. No, I think Muriel is just observing sources, CD.

More people should do that, by the way. I'm amazed at how gullible people can be.

The source of information is always important. One thing that bothers me about some online correspondence is the practice of linking to sources that aren't reputable, sources that are tabloid, or sources that are heavily biased. There's always a tendency to jump on information that backs up our preconceived notions or hopes and run with it, but that leads to chaos.

In this case, it's probably not too important since we know that paid shills post on the internet (though I've never seen evidence regarding the extent of it).

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 07:05 AM

79. Did the other person give their name?

Or was that also just "someone on the internet"?

As it happens, pro-Israel support is the one area in which there is some decent evidence that people were (are?) paid to post political opinions (there is, of course, shilling for commercial products too - which, since it makes money, is very believable).

The Foreign Ministry unveiled a new plan this week: Paying talkbackers to post pro-Israel responses on websites worldwide. A total of NIS 600,000 (roughly $150,000) will be earmarked to the establishment of an “Internet warfare” squad.

The Foreign Ministry intends to hire young people who speak at least one language and who study communication, political science, or law – or alternately, Israelis with military experience gained at units dealing with information analysis.

Beyond the fact that these job requirements reveal a basic lack of understanding in respect to the dynamics of the online discourse – the project’s manager argued that “adults don’t know how to blog” – they are not too relevant either. An effective talkbacker does not need a law degree or military experience. He merely needs to care about the subject he writes about.

The sad truth is that had Israeli citizens believed that their State is doing the right thing, they would have made sure to explain it out of their own accord. Without being paid.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3744516,00.html


But that comes from a verified source. The reliability of the "I was an internet shill" post in AboveTopSecret is no more than a post that they claim to have made pushing the propaganda. No name, a literally laughable "United Amalgamated Industries, Inc." name for the company (hell, they should have called it 'the Acme Propaganda Co.') - any one of us could write that for a laugh. And targeting Godlike Productions? Ha. That's one of the looniest websites of all. No-one would waste money trying to persuade the people there. It's like spending an hour trying to get the vote of the person on the street corner who's shouting "the world will end in 3 days' time!". They put Godlike Productions in the piece because the kind of people who post on AboveTopSecret also post there. And look at the ego-massaging about the ATS posters - even though this guy says he wasn't paid to post there:

The site-specific info in the second binder included a brief history each site, including recent flame-wars, as well as info on what to avoid on each site so as not to get banned. It also had quite detailed info on the moderators and the most popular regged posters on each site: location (if known), personality type, topics of interest, background sketch, and even some notes on how to “push the psychological buttons” of different posters. Although I didn’t work for ATS, I did see they had a lot of info on your so-called “WATS” posters here (the ones with gold borders around their edges). “Focus on the popular posters,” my trainer told me. “These are the influential ones. Each of these is worth 50 to 100 of the lesser known names.”
...
But I think you should know: Shills exist. They are real. They walk among you, and they pay special attention to your popular gold-bordered WATS posters.


That is someone trolling ATS. They want the replies from the people (and ATS will have plenty of paranoid people on it) who will say "I knew it! I'm so good, there are professional organisations out to counteract everything I say! I'm worth much more than these other posters. All these people who reply and say I'm full of shit - they're paid to do it!" But ATS is a website for nutjobs. The only reason to pay people to post on it would be to separate the gullible ones from their money (like Alex Jones does - though he is open about him saying it all).

I can believe that volunteers in campaigns make strategic posts in the right places to push their candidate, using talking points they're given. But the problem with all the threads like this (and they are a regular feature here) is that DUers take this as 'evidence' that the poster they don't like is actually being paid to disagree with them. The opinions we see posted here are held, without payment, by many people. And that's why it's hard to believe there are organisations who want to spend real money for what they'd get for free. If they do think it's worth spending money on, it'll be in places where the audience is persuadable. So, on DU, that won't be to push a right wing meme; it'll be to favour one Democrat over another. The most likely time for there to have been 'paid shills' on DU was during the 2008 primaries, when there were Democratic campaigns looking to persuade large groups of Democrats, nationally, and DU is a great place to find those. But, again, with loads of people holding the beliefs passionately anyway, you'd have to wonder why bother paying for it (especially since if anyone talked about it, it'd make your campaign look really bad). But the accusations of 'paid shill' are always thrown here against views unpopular on DU. I don't think PR campaigns waste their money on people tilting at windmills.

It's worth keeping a high-level view of what DU is like. We're a bunch of people, with varying left-liberal views, who are, mostly, pretty set in our ways. There are many posts made here every day. To really make us think the general consensus is moving, you'd need a hell of a lot of posts here. It's possible that there are a few subjects on which DU might seem persuadable, because it's not a core topic - gun control, or climate change, perhaps - that some groups with lots of money might pay people to post in various places, including DU. But they're still topics on which people really hold the views the lobby groups would want to push, so telling the difference between paid shill, and unpaid independent person who holds a view you or I think is ridiculous, is impossible. And a bit of trolling in the AboveTopSecret forums is not evidence.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:36 PM

19. I'll be darned. That makes a lot of sense.

I believe it.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:41 PM

21. They're a dime a dozen.

They are all over the place. Science sites are packed by misinfo monkeys. It makes discussions on science either a huge laugh or a sheer nonsense. But they're easy to peg.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:07 PM

23. The message is clear...

YOU ARE VERY IMPORTANT!

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:37 PM

33. CT bullshit from Above Top Secret...

They just love Alex Jones at ATS too.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:40 PM

37. Was that straight out of your binder?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #37)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:46 PM

38. Oh yeah. You like Alex Jones and conspiracies...

Sorry to rain on your parade.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:50 PM

40. Haha

You can't pin the AJ tail on this donkey. Nope.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:13 PM

56. Suspect

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #33)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:44 PM

91. So you don't believe in paid shills?

Have you ever once read the comments on a Yahoo News Story? How about local newspapers? Notice how they tend to be swarmed by right wingers in totally disproportionate numbers? Ever wonder why that was?

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Response to MessiahRp (Reply #91)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:07 PM

97. I believe that abovetopsecret is a loony toons source...

and anything posted there, especially anything posted anonymously, should be viewed with skepticism.

More nuttery from the good folk at ATS:

Secret New Documents Reveal Shocking Truth About Vaccine Cover UP.
More footage of UFOs over Denver. Baffles aviation experts.
New smoking guns in Apollo moon hoax: White cloth canvas on floor clearly seen!
Stargates are real
2013 The Year Extra-Terrestrial Life Is Disclosed To The Public, Here is the Proof!
Satanist Hitman Stopped From Killing Target By A Powerful Light That Burned His Hand

And on and on.

All that's missing is this guy:



Sid

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:38 PM

34. Where do we pick up our checks?

Heh, most DU'ers have been "on the job" for years w/o pay

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #34)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:55 PM

43. Just like HuffPo!

 

I just like clicking on hyperlinks that take me to other pages filled with even more hyperlinks which link to pages which are in turn linked to the blogger who linked the story to begin with.

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Response to Rain Mcloud (Reply #43)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:11 PM

53. It's insane.

Trying to get to the original source of information online can be maddening.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:52 PM

41. Use of such "shills" is standard operating procedure for marketing agencies and lobbyists.

It is an unfortunate fact of life now. That is why you have to take any product "review" or internet post with a grain of salt.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #41)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:05 PM

110. I hate to think of what DU must be costing the NRA right now. n/t

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:52 PM

42. "A poor tool of the corporations, of the detectives, a thing in the shape of a man...



named Orchard, told of belonging to an inner circle of the Western Federation of Miners whose object it was to dynamite and assassinate. It was this inner circle to which the officers of the union belonged, and it was this circle, said he, that was responsible for the death, eight years before, of Governor Steunenberg.

The trial was held in Boise, Idaho. President Roosevelt called them men "undesirable citizens" before they had been given a chance to defend themselves. In the end they were acquitted and those who sought to destroy them because of their labor in behalf of toiling humanity had to see other methods of destroying the Western Federation of Miners."


From the Autobiography of Mother Jones, Copyright 1925. Foreword by Clarence Darrow.

Mother Jones comments are about Orchard, whose real name was Horsley, a fink and murder (among many) in the employ of mine owners, also in the employ of the Pinkerton Agency for a number of years. After the Governor of Idaho was out of office he attached a bomb to Steunenberg's front gate and assassinated him. After being arrested Horsley spent some time with a Pinkerton supervisor, and brought forth a story of conspiracy which was destroyed in court.

One should periodically take stock of people who say they are on your side. Sounds like people are still hiring folks to pretend they are your friends and blow things up, metaphorically speaking.

This kind of behavior, much lower than that of a yellow dog, is work that gets good people killed.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:11 PM

52. I see talking heads on TV like that too.

Come out of nowhere, have a hidden conservagenda, not identified with any particular lobbying group, often young, female and attractive. Must be financed by someone.

I've seen several women like that on Bill Maher's show.

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Response to Manifestor_of_Light (Reply #52)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:33 PM

86. The blonde "elves"--including Ann Coulter--who promoted Paula Jones so vehemently

were just such RW financed trolls. Those RW sugardaddy types are well aware that at least some men are easily swayed by a woman they consider to be "hot." Although WE don't consider Coulter, Bachmann, and women like them to be attractive, I guarantee that the kind of man who posts on FR and such sites do. In fact, I have often heard RW men--and, unfortunately, some men I know who are not RW!--refer to them as "hot."

That's a large part of Palin's popularity, as we well know. Ailes even admmitted that one of his reasons for hiring her was that she was, as he said, "hot." Remember the RW columnist who nearly ejaculated in print over her wink in the debate?

And that's also why FOX is infested with young blondes in short, tight skirts and low-cut blouses.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:13 PM

54. What surprises me is people pay money for it. How could anyone care what "internet opinion" is


LOL

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Response to RB TexLa (Reply #54)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:25 PM

57. Are you that naive? Or do you think we're naive enough to think that you don't know better?

you act like propaganda, PR advertising, marketing, astroturfing, etc., which all exist out in the "real" world, suddenly have no purpose on the web.

i don't for one minute think you even believe what you're saying.

but i do think you want us to believe it, even while you probably don't.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #57)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:34 PM

59. I really find it quite silly. But hey if people are going to waste money on it.

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Response to RB TexLa (Reply #59)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:40 PM

60. sure you do

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #60)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:43 PM

61. Yes, I do, I do not lie. I'm sure some people's self importance makes it easier for them to believe

just like the fact that many internet blog posters, both left and right believe the government is watching them for having "speaks the truth to the power," on the internet.

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Response to RB TexLa (Reply #61)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:50 PM

62. there are people paid to troll, to post certain ideas, to help their company to harm the competition

yes it goes on.

read Amazon reviews sometime, read reviews of any product.

there are decent, honest reviews, and then there's the propaganda crap.

you see it everywhere on the net, but what makes the trolling stand out is it's point of view,

the people who write it, don't write it from the the point of view of someone who likes or wants to be a part of the website it's on.

for example here...the trolls hate us, hate what we like, hate our ideas, and one sure-fire way to be suspicious is that you can sense not just a hostility to DUers, but liberal ideas here (disdain is the most common tic), but the other key is disdain not just for people here, but towards liberals in general.

it's a theme and it's hard to disguise.

and if you think people in lobbying think-tanks aren't doing a little of this on the side, because politicking, PR and message-ing is what they do, what they even do for fun! you're dreaming.

there is even one admitted paid lobbyist here on DU, or they were at the time they posted that.

for what it's worth, their posts are almost universally reviled here on DU.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #62)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:54 AM

77. Some of the more popular posters here on DU evidently hate liberal ideas

They certainly spend plenty of time putting down progtopian emoprog firebaggers with extreme prejudice.



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #77)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:25 PM

102. I have seen certain topics attacked by several posters at once as if they were suddenly alerted

 

maybe email alerts or something.

Whenever there is a sudden powerful negative response to a story, I look twice at the story because the poster must be on to something.

There is a group of DU bullies I have witnessed who will often provoke a fight on controversial issues in order to get the topic shut down,

then gang up and bully the poster they got tombstoned to let other DUers know not to stand up to them in the future.

They often pretend to be liberals who are concerned that liberals are being made to look foolish.

Sometimes the posters come in a pack and post the same next dumb story they want democrats to talk about, usually a distraction.

I am a long time lurker and a psychologist, studying human behavior is kinda my thing...

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Response to RB TexLa (Reply #61)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:46 PM

89. I imagine you certainly want us to believe that...

" Yes, I do, I do not lie..."

I imagine you certainly want us to believe that, as do most who are compelled to state that.

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Response to RB TexLa (Reply #61)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:21 PM

100. 2nd mention of the 'self-important' meme...

 

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #57)


Response to RB TexLa (Reply #54)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:13 AM

69. here's an example of paid posting, just in the past hour or so -you're so convinced nobody does it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1158&pid=1480

the MIRT probably disagrees.

on the other hand, i'm skeptical that you don't believe in paid posting.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:58 PM

66. Only a paid internet shill would post something like this...

...most likely to throw us off of their trail of shilling.

This thread is full of paid internet shills! The horror! The horror!

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 12:29 AM

73. Most of us knew this, glad someone is speaking up

This guy says he was paid to post on
Godlike Productions, Lunatic Outpost, CNN news, Yahoo News
I have noticed shill-like behavior on Godlike Productions and Yahoo News, it is nice to have validation.

Before the election, I saw job openings for people to write essays on the Internet. Really? Get paid to write essays on the Internet? Guess they can't just advertise for liars and sell-outs.

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Response to siligut (Reply #73)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:22 PM

83. Probably at least some of those ads are for those

online companies that hire otherwise unemployed or underemployed English majors to write essays for high school and college students to purchase in order to submit them as their own.

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Response to siligut (Reply #73)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:24 PM

101. I never heard of Godlike Productions


Their website shows 1.4 million page views today, which is either depressing because its bull and people believe it or its true and twice as depressing.

It sounded like a reasonable story up until he said that he couldn't even see Godlike Productions any more.

He is a tech junkie and can't figure out how to camoflauge an IP address?

I am sure that you are correct about the ads that you saw. One of us should join just to see.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #101)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:38 PM

107. I don't remember now where I saw the ads

I ran across two of them while surfing. It crossed my mind that it was suspicious, but I didn't take the time to investigate.

I don't doubt the guy, he actually sounds a little paranoid about the outfit he worked for coming after him for speaking out.

I don't think it is a good idea to stick your nose into criminal behavior. Even though he described the people he worked and trained with as rather banal, I would bet that whoever funds the project isn't.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:18 PM

81. That makes me feel better about

telling suspected trolls to fuck off.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:21 PM

82. ROFL, people believe anything they read on the intertubes

LOL

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:36 PM

87. While we ponder this thought provoking post, I'm gonna have a Coke-Cola Zero

 

You might think about having one too.


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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:27 PM

90. What about the internet stalkers?

Before the election I had a few stalkers that followed me on Disqus and whenever I posted they attacked me. I used to get all kind of weird spam in my email asking me for my password. Because of that I stopped posting on the internet for a couple of weeks. Even innocuous comments they would come after me. I must have really pissed someone off. But I had a feeling they were paid to do this. It wasn't just some troll in their mother's basement.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 02:55 PM

94. This has been oing on for years

Israel has a huge internet presence, but so does he GOP and Corporate America.

Google "Blog Warriors"

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Response to GETPLANING (Reply #94)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:56 PM

109. Yes, it has. I remember reading, years ago, about the establishment of companies that were

contracted to post/Twitter/Facebook all sorts of opinion, 'information,' etc., to all sorts of sites/Twitter accounts. All of it was corporate or RW propaganda (such as the RW Israel support stuff, libertarian propaganda, etc.). I sincerely do not remember any such efforts being promoted by and centrist or Democratic organization, probably because most of us recoil in disgust from such tactics.

Unfortunately, I think we have to start thinking about using such tactics too, or we are simply going to be drowned out as we have been drowned out for the past 30 years. I have never really understood why wealthy Democrats haven't stepped up to the plate by establishing its own lefty think tanks, stable of lefty commentators, etc. If we had them, we could have agitated for, and gotten, our views out there. Sure, Fox could have refused to use a lefty for a viewpoint, but I bet CNN et al would have been fine with it, if they hadn't had to go searching in the corner somewhere for someone who wasn't automatically a RW asshole.

So, onward it goes -- Bernays' propaganda techniques, adapted to the new media, get used first and vigorously by the RW, and we sit around for years, trying to decide if we want to get our hands that dirty. It doesn't help that RW ideas issue from and aid the largest corporations; the big money is behind the RW, and what company is going to pay to undermine itself? It leaves financing any lefty effort to anomalous rich guys like Soros, and there are just too few of them to build a reliable lefty structure that could have a hope of counteracting the RW noise. I truly see no solution, other than a very scary societal breakdown that forces even the most delusional person to reevaluate everything. And even then you'll have people who 'know' it's all the black guy's fault.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:10 PM

99. totally believable.

 

i wonder if they are on DU.

I have been talking to people on other websites where they didn't seem to have a response beyond a meme.

Takes a while, but then they will come back with 'more complex arguments' that they don't really understand.

Interesting.

Can we find a list of companies hiring for this to at least expose them?

This should be illegal, but how could we use the freedom of information act for this purpose...

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:31 PM

105. Why do you hate freedom?

Also: high fructose corn syrup is just like any other sugar.

K&R

I'm going to assume that the folks who called folks "goofy" a decade ago for saying people were being paid shills, were most likely paid shills. The election reform forum once stank like an open graveyard from the presence of the paid advocacy whores. One of their tricks was to run off people who were informed and armed with too many facts that their "johns" might have found to be troublesome.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:37 PM

106. More great articles from consciouslifenews.com...

Fluoride Detox: Here’s How to Get it Out of Your System
Smoking Gun: HAARP and Chemtrails Connection
Seeing Dead People: ‘Remote Viewers’ in Nevada Help Solve California Murder
Tragedy in Newtown, CT – A Numerological Look at Adam Lanza
51 Cattle Mutilations in Argentina in which Organs Were Extracted with a Laser Scalpel
Possible Extraterrestrial Baby Skeleton Found In Peru
Cancer Physician Speaks Out About Cancer Fraud
Study Finds Chemotherapy May Make Cancer Far Worse

and on and on and on and on.

Great source you picked, OP.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #106)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:59 PM

117. Oh Sid, we know you know it really exists, despite the source.

"Broken clock" and all that shit.

I have a family member who has done it for over a decade with a corporation, runs the website, controls the messages on boards in a benign manner wherever possible, does damage control. Corporations have done it for years. Why would it stop now with a new technology? C'mon now.

Do you really not believe it's true? Really? C'mon guy.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 04:39 PM

113. Message Control and AstroTurf Marketing is Big Business!

"Rahm Emanuel's Think Tankers Enforce 'Message Discipline' Among 'Liberals'"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-scahill/rahm-emanuels-think-tanke_b_185203.html

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 05:01 PM

118. Makes me wonder how much of this goes down here at DU

especially over at the gun club.

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Response to JeffHead (Original post)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 05:05 PM

120. Locking

Due to the sourcing of this piece, a consensus has been reached that it does not fit the SoP of this Forum, but could be posted to another Group, such as Creative Speculation.

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