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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:36 PM

The speech STARTED with two big lies

#1. The Iraq War made the USA more secure as a nation.

#2 The Iraq War made the USA more respected around the world.

Discuss.

69 replies, 6499 views

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Reply The speech STARTED with two big lies (Original post)
Bonobo Jan 2012 OP
FarLeftFist Jan 2012 #1
TheWraith Jan 2012 #53
lonestarnot Jan 2012 #2
FrenchieCat Jan 2012 #3
Bonobo Jan 2012 #4
Scuba Jan 2012 #12
fascisthunter Jan 2012 #24
chervilant Jan 2012 #65
guitar man Jan 2012 #5
grasswire Jan 2012 #6
limpyhobbler Jan 2012 #7
Initech Jan 2012 #8
FLyellowdog Jan 2012 #9
donheld Jan 2012 #10
ProSense Jan 2012 #11
JNelson6563 Jan 2012 #13
Logical Jan 2012 #29
ProSense Jan 2012 #32
Logical Jan 2012 #33
ProSense Jan 2012 #35
Logical Jan 2012 #36
sabrina 1 Jan 2012 #59
Arugula Latte Jan 2012 #62
Logical Jan 2012 #14
Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #17
hfojvt Jan 2012 #50
Bohunk68 Jan 2012 #16
sabrina 1 Jan 2012 #60
Bohunk68 Jan 2012 #68
sabrina 1 Jan 2012 #69
Bonobo Jan 2012 #19
jeff47 Jan 2012 #23
Bonobo Jan 2012 #25
MinervaX Jan 2012 #26
jeff47 Jan 2012 #28
leveymg Jan 2012 #22
FarCenter Jan 2012 #40
progressoid Jan 2012 #52
mmonk Jan 2012 #15
Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2012 #18
mmonk Jan 2012 #20
leveymg Jan 2012 #21
bigwillq Jan 2012 #27
hifiguy Jan 2012 #30
DeathToTheOil Jan 2012 #31
dionysus Jan 2012 #34
leveymg Jan 2012 #37
DefenseLawyer Jan 2012 #38
redqueen Jan 2012 #41
DefenseLawyer Jan 2012 #44
redqueen Jan 2012 #45
Cali_Democrat Jan 2012 #55
madamesilverspurs Jan 2012 #39
SidDithers Jan 2012 #42
wakemewhenitsover Jan 2012 #43
bvar22 Jan 2012 #46
tranche Jan 2012 #47
Motown_Johnny Jan 2012 #48
librechik Jan 2012 #49
moodforaday Jan 2012 #56
woo me with science Jan 2012 #51
countryjake Jan 2012 #54
Toucano Jan 2012 #57
T S Justly Jan 2012 #58
sad sally Jan 2012 #61
rudycantfail Jan 2012 #63
Bonobo Jan 2012 #66
Prometheus Bound Jan 2012 #64
chervilant Jan 2012 #67

Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:37 PM

1. That's classified information.

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Response to FarLeftFist (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 03:44 PM

53. Actually, more like false information, since he never said either of those things.

What he said was that:

1. The Iraq War is over.

2. The US is now more secure and more respected around the world than it used to be.

He in no way implied that number two was BECAUSE of the Iraq War. You could more easily read it that he was saying it was because the war was OVER and US troops are out of Iraq. b

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:38 PM

2. It is what it is and it's done. Did not detract from anything else he said. Why rehash bushitler?

He's dead to me.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:40 PM

3. Now that we are basically out of there.....

we are more secure and respected......

That's the part Pres. Obama had something to do with,
and recognizing the Armed Forces at the end of a war
is something smart to do.

Should he had said the Armed Forces of the United States
have made us less safe and less respected.....
Because last I look, that was what Bush did.....not so much
most of the soldiers.

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Response to FrenchieCat (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:49 PM

4. Continuing the lie is NOT acceptable.

He did not do a service to the country in any way by stating those two untruths. he could have simply not said them -he did not have to say that it made the US less respected and less safe.

Continuing the lies is consistent, however, with the idea that we should not "look back" -in other words, we really should not reconsider our actions with regards to the illegitimate and the immorality of what we did in Iraq.

Let me ask you this: If we do not look back and ask those tough questions while it is happening OR after it is over, when will we do so?

And if we NEVER consider our actions, how will there ever be any progress made?

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 06:40 AM

12. +1

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 09:19 AM

24. No it isn't, and should be acceptable... because it sets up a precedent

that war is somehow an answer... it isn't. It has just about bankrupted our nation.

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Response to FrenchieCat (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:18 PM

65. hmph

If we are to continue our grand experiment in democracy, we must hone and USE our critical thinking skills. We must discern when we are hearing propaganda, and when we are hearing outright lies. We must refuse to play sycophant to those we entrust with leadership roles.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:55 PM

5. Why do you hate America?



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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:02 PM

6. I questioned that as well.

It wasn't clear to me if he meant that people of the world respect America because we stopped killing Iraqis? Or what, exactly.

I'd like to see some substance to back up those assertions.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:15 PM

7. Remember, it's not a lie if you believe it.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:20 PM

8. George Costanza for president!

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Response to Initech (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 11:25 PM

9. Serenity now!!! Serenity now!!!

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 01:41 AM

10. 100% accurate.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 01:44 AM

11. Except

The speech STARTED with two big lies

#1. The Iraq War made the USA more secure as a nation.

#2 The Iraq War made the USA more respected around the world.

...that's not what he said.

Last month, I went to Andrews Air Force Base and welcomed home some of our last troops to serve in Iraq. Together, we offered a final, proud salute to the colors under which more than a million of our fellow citizens fought - and several thousand gave their lives.

We gather tonight knowing that this generation of heroes has made the United States safer and more respected around the world. For the first time in nine years, there are no Americans fighting in Iraq. For the first time in two decades, Osama bin Laden is not a threat to this country. Most of al Qaedaís top lieutenants have been defeated. The Talibanís momentum has been broken, and some troops in Afghanistan have begun to come home.

http://news.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/01/obama-i-intend-to-fight-obstruction-with-action.php

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Response to ProSense (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 06:43 AM

13. Damn you and your facts ProSense!!1!

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #13)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:51 AM

29. Prosense is way off on this one. But staying with her/his theme.

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Response to Logical (Reply #29)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:54 AM

32. Actually,

"Prosense is way off on this one. But staying with her/his theme."

...no I'm not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002218581

Can someone point the quote that states: "The Iraq War made the USA more secure as a nation" or "The Iraq War made the USA more respected around the world."

This is inaccurate paraphrasing. Ironic that it's being used to claim a lie was told.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #32)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:22 AM

33. I would never trust your "analysis" of anything Obama said. Nothing against you but too biased.

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Response to Logical (Reply #33)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:31 AM

35. Well,

I'm not a fan of paraphrasing that distorts.

If that's your thing, I'm not the person you should agree with.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:33 AM

36. Your opinion of course is not the truth. But I think you know that already! n-t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #32)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:36 PM

59. The heroes the President mentioned were the troops who were sent to Iraq.

How did sending them to Iraq make America safer and more respected?

Or are you saying he's talking about some other troops who returned from somewhere else?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #59)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:42 PM

62. And why are people who sign up for the military automatically heroes?

It would be more heroic if they refrained from aiding the military-industrial shakedown and bombing of brown people for no good reason.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 06:46 AM

14. Wait, you bolded the exact point if the OP! How did Obama not say that?

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Response to Logical (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 07:21 AM

17. Damn you and you logic, Logical!!!!!

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Response to Logical (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 03:15 PM

50. "this generation of heroes" was what he said

not "the Iraq war"

The first is more open ended than the second, and it is about the PEOPLE, rather than a specific action.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 07:20 AM

16. While I don't often agree with what you say

because often it is rather, shall we say, pedantic. I agree with what you are saying here because you have stated what he said IN CONTEXT. And the context of that statement is very important. He was talking about the ending has made us safer and more respected, not that the war has.

While I have disagreements with the Prez often, I will not twist what he states just to disagree. Thanks, ProSense.

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Response to Bohunk68 (Reply #16)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:38 PM

60. How did the troops in Iraq make this country safer and more respected?

I read the statement and that is what the president said. We are 'safer' and 'more respected' because of the troops who were in Iraq. The exact opposite is true, actually.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #60)

Thu Jan 26, 2012, 08:09 AM

68. That's exactly the point.

It's exactly the withdrawal that makes us safer and more respected. Sabrina, of all people, I would expect that you would understand that. You surprise me. BTW, I almost always agree with you and like very much what you say and look forward to your entries. Maybe I was unclear in what I said. I don't think we are in disagreement on this.

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Response to Bohunk68 (Reply #68)

Thu Jan 26, 2012, 02:12 PM

69. Well, I do understand it, Bohunk. I also understand that no president can

come out and say that the war was a waste of lives and money. But the statement was open to interpretation and probably on purpose, so many people heard 'the war in Iraq has made us safer'.

I long for the day when a president can just speak the truth instead of having to gloss over major crimes committed by those in office.

That he, who opposed the war and for all the right reasons, one main reason why I supported him, has to be careful how he talks about it now, is a sad statement on where we are.

Thank you for your kind words, and no problem re sometimes not seeing things in the same way. I think in this case it's not so much a reflection on the president that he has to be careful when he speaks about our overseas adventures, but on our whole system.

You may be right in your interpretation and I would like to think that he was making a statement as subtly as he could. Still, none of the warmongers have chastised him for speaking against the war, so either he fooled them completely, or they heard what some of us heard.

And I look forward to your posts also, Bohunk

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Response to ProSense (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 07:51 AM

19. And how exactly is that different in a meaningful way?

Explain to me the difference. He was talking about the Iraq War. You know it and I know it.

So what knew Spin-ditry is this?

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 09:17 AM

23. Because he said the _ending_ of the war made us safer, not the war. (nt)

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #23)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 09:19 AM

25. Ridiculous. nt

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #23)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 09:20 AM

26. Did it realy make us safer?

 

Isn't that a question that only time will answer. How many new Bin Ladens are being born into poverty in Iraq right now and being taught about the Great Satan America. Quite a few I would imagine.

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Response to MinervaX (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:38 AM

28. How many more would be created by continuing the war? (nt)

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Response to ProSense (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 09:08 AM

22. How is the original text essentially different from the Campbell's condensed version?

Looks and tastes pretty much the same to me, stripped of the niceties of applause lines, formal language, and rousing rhetoric.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:50 AM

40. Bigger lie "The Talibanís momentum has been broken"

Not true.

And the blockade of supplies to the troops in Afghanistan by Pakistan continues.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 03:41 PM

52. "safer and more respected"

Exactly what the OP said.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 06:56 AM

15. Agreed.

But the US has a population infatuated with lies.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 07:25 AM

18. USA! USA! Mission Accomplished! Did we find the Ho Chi Minh Trail? Are the Sioux on the run?

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 07:54 AM

20. LOL

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 09:03 AM

21. By the same reasoning, wouldn't another couple wars make us even more "secure" and "respected"?

The Man shows signs of Speaking Under the Influence of Kool-Aid. I want to see him take a Breathalyzer before he's allowed back behind the wheel.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 09:30 AM

27. I feel Obama is wrong

on those two points.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:52 AM

30. You are correct, Bonobo.

That is all.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:54 AM

31. Discuss? No

 

Disgust. GWB wrecked the U.S.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:23 AM

34. the desperation grows as it becomes clear he will be in office for 4 more years.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #34)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:43 AM

37. So does his pandering to the Right-wing - "Mission Accomplished," in other words

It's a good thing to honor and help the returning troops, its quite another thing to proclaim, in so many words, "Mission Accomplished."

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:45 AM

38. The Cult of Hero Worship for the military is a permanent part of American politics

Everyone in the military is a "hero", regardless of what they do. Anyone who doesn't support the military 100% (especially their unlimited budget) hates the troops and hates America. It's just good business.

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Response to DefenseLawyer (Reply #38)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:52 AM

41. What, you mean there aren't enough anti-war voters to elect him?

Well color me shocked.



I swear I never stop being surprised at how many people seem not to have the first clue about how politics actually works.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #41)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 12:05 PM

44. I have no idea what your point is here.

I'm merely pointing out the reality of the American culture, not suggesting that the President is making a mistake politically by jumping on that train. He is most certainly a politician and a very good one. Of course he's going to pander to the "hero" meme, even if it means saying something ridiculous like "our heros in Iraq made us safer and more respected".

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Response to DefenseLawyer (Reply #44)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 12:15 PM

45. I meant that you're right.

We (the royal we, USicans, not you and I) fairly worship the military. Fail to pay sufficient homage to the military, and you will not be elected. It really is as simple as that.

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Response to DefenseLawyer (Reply #38)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 03:51 PM

55. Well said

"cult of hero worship for the military"

This is also perpetuated by the media day after day. It's sickening.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:48 AM

39. OP manufactures a lie about things not said.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:54 AM

42. No, it didn't...

Discussion over.

Sid

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 12:01 PM

43. Bingo. n/t

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:18 PM

46. The SOTU had some good stuff last night,

but starting with the Failed Nightmare in Iraq,
and ending with the flag wrapping WAR/Killing glorification turned my stomach.
The only thing missing was the band playing Ride of the Valkyries.


I had some hopes that this President would lead us to Peace,
and was Praying for a
"now that we have gotten Bin Laden, it is time to bang the swords into plowshares" moment.

So sad.





You will know them by their WORKS.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:21 PM

47. I don't come around here much anymore. When I pop in and read arguments like this

I think to myself, "These people are fucking crazy."

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:42 PM

48. your listening skills are lacking

the ENDING of the Iraq war made the USA more secure and more respected

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #48)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:44 PM

49. Good catch n/t

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #48)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 09:48 PM

56. But Obama did NOT say "the ending".

He said "this generation of heroes has made the United States safer and more respected around the world". "This generation of heroes" (what a sick lie in itself!) refers to the troops. The troops were there to fight the war, they did not end the war. Obama is praising them - the tools of Bush's and his own murderous spree. There is nothing about ending the war in this sentence, so please do not argue that there is.

The notion of ending the Iraq war comes in the sentence that follows, but it really belongs in a separate paragraph, as it is not connected to the one we are discussing.

And then at the end he threatened a war with Iran.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 03:17 PM

51. I was sitting in a group of people for this speech,

and when he said those things, there was spontaneous groaning and scoffing.

There was spontaneous applause at the "less teaching to the test" line.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 03:47 PM

54. And that very spin may actually weaken our safety...

and it certainly does little to build any admiration for a military that has continually been held unaccountable for any of the atrocities committed during the past decade.

Al Qaeda's presence in Iraq appears to be growing, as bombings, mass killings, and terror against minorities has steadily increased since the USA officially "ended" that occupation. The weakness of any functioning leadership in a nation that our government effectively destroyed, all of the "instability" that is being reported since our pullout and the total havoc that is apparent in most of our daily evening news coming from Iraq, makes what the prez said about no more Americans fighting there seem like a cruel joke...a "wink, wink" to the rest of world. His remarks on safety and respect may seem like a slap in the face to any Iraqis who just might view our troops more as criminals rather than any generation of heroes.

I cry for Haditha and only hope that the SOTU was not available there.


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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 09:50 PM

57. And both lies got standing ovations

Which made the whole event look like a picnic at the mental ward.

Washington is completely detached from reality.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:13 PM

58. And, continued that way. K&R (nt)

 

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 10:40 PM

61. The US proudly remains number one in all things military.

As this "great" nation falls farther behind other nations in education, energy, infrastructure, health, life expectancy, infant mortality, poverty, retirement security, and happiness, we proudly remain number one in all things military.

What a hokus-pokus math claim when he said the military would be cutting half a trillion dollars from the military, but forgot to mention this was over 10 years, which is $50 billion a year from a total budget of over a trillion a year.

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:13 PM

63. It's a rhetorical trick

 

that's designed to appeal to two groups: First, the neocons because it bolsters their false claims that these wars are keeping us safe and second, the great middle of America that wants to feel good and hopeful about something and generally supports the U.S. military. At the same time it discourages criticism from the left by hiding failed and harmful policies behind the troops.

It's a close cousin to 2003's SUPPORT OUR TROOPS.

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Response to rudycantfail (Reply #63)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:18 PM

66. Good analysis. nt

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Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:14 PM

64. Who won the Iraq war anyway?

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Response to Prometheus Bound (Reply #64)

Wed Jan 25, 2012, 11:27 PM

67. Well...

If, by win, you mean 'who made the most money,' I'd have to say Dick Cheney, Halliburton and Blackwater.

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