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Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:11 PM

 

Gun bans and abortion bans - a remarkable Puritanical similarity

(Disclosure: I am pro-choice on both)

These are both very difficult topics that each split the country beyond class lines. And they each have tremendous political impact.

But look at what each have in common:

1- A need to control others
2- A crusade to "save the innocent"
3- The need for an intrusive government to implement new law
4- A sense of moral high ground

Puritanical? Sure they are. Both purport to establish a New World that is beyond attainment. Abortions will never go away. Gun violence will never end.

Prohibition does not work.

114 replies, 4964 views

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Reply Gun bans and abortion bans - a remarkable Puritanical similarity (Original post)
banned from Kos Jan 2013 OP
montanto Jan 2013 #1
bowens43 Jan 2013 #63
AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #68
pipoman Jan 2013 #2
bowens43 Jan 2013 #64
graham4anything Jan 2013 #3
jody Jan 2013 #5
graham4anything Jan 2013 #7
former-republican Jan 2013 #9
graham4anything Jan 2013 #23
pipoman Jan 2013 #45
graham4anything Jan 2013 #48
pipoman Jan 2013 #59
graham4anything Jan 2013 #65
AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #71
graham4anything Jan 2013 #73
AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #81
pipoman Jan 2013 #90
freshwest Jan 2013 #52
jody Jan 2013 #10
graham4anything Jan 2013 #13
LineLineLineLineLineLineReply .
former-republican Jan 2013 #19
jody Jan 2013 #21
graham4anything Jan 2013 #25
pipoman Jan 2013 #26
graham4anything Jan 2013 #29
pipoman Jan 2013 #51
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #87
pipoman Jan 2013 #89
ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #67
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #4
Recursion Jan 2013 #56
DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #6
banned from Kos Jan 2013 #18
graham4anything Jan 2013 #50
AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #74
graham4anything Jan 2013 #76
AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #79
graham4anything Jan 2013 #80
AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #94
graham4anything Jan 2013 #109
DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #53
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #61
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #8
davidn3600 Jan 2013 #12
jmg257 Jan 2013 #36
BlueMTexpat Jan 2013 #11
onehandle Jan 2013 #14
Veridicus Jan 2013 #15
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #22
Veridicus Jan 2013 #27
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #42
Veridicus Jan 2013 #49
Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #54
beevul Jan 2013 #103
slackmaster Jan 2013 #16
dsc Jan 2013 #17
rightsideout Jan 2013 #38
dsc Jan 2013 #39
AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #75
dsc Jan 2013 #93
ellisonz Jan 2013 #20
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #24
banned from Kos Jan 2013 #32
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #40
banned from Kos Jan 2013 #58
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #70
Warren Stupidity Jan 2013 #95
The Straight Story Jan 2013 #34
Mimosa Jan 2013 #57
Budgies Revenge Jan 2013 #83
jody Jan 2013 #37
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #60
jody Jan 2013 #66
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #85
AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #78
NYC Liberal Jan 2013 #28
graham4anything Jan 2013 #30
MightyMopar Jan 2013 #33
derby378 Jan 2013 #91
graham4anything Jan 2013 #110
earthside Jan 2013 #31
jody Jan 2013 #44
earthside Jan 2013 #77
beevul Jan 2013 #105
MotherPetrie Jan 2013 #35
banned from Kos Jan 2013 #43
LanternWaste Jan 2013 #82
MotherPetrie Jan 2013 #88
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #97
smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #69
ThoughtCriminal Jan 2013 #41
etherealtruth Jan 2013 #46
jmg257 Jan 2013 #47
gollygee Jan 2013 #55
bowens43 Jan 2013 #62
Chorophyll Jan 2013 #72
HooptieWagon Jan 2013 #84
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #86
banned from Kos Jan 2013 #92
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #96
Odin2005 Jan 2013 #98
ellisonz Jan 2013 #111
billh58 Jan 2013 #99
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #100
samsingh Jan 2013 #101
thucythucy Jan 2013 #102
morningfog Jan 2013 #104
ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #106
jeff47 Jan 2013 #107
TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #108
LineNew Reply .
Rex Jan 2013 #112
GeorgeGist Jan 2013 #113
ljm2002 Jan 2013 #114

Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:13 PM

1. Well said!!

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Response to montanto (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:20 PM

63. You're kidding right?

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Response to montanto (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:26 PM

68. 100%

 

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:15 PM

2. yep..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:20 PM

64. nope

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:16 PM

3. the two don't equate at all. A woman's right is 1st amend. A gun takes that away

 

has nothing to do with government intrusion

a governments main function is to keep the people safe
guns take away that function

a woman's choice is equal to freedom of speech

a gun kills ones freedom of speech

so sorry, the two have nothing to do with each other

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:19 PM

5. Please cite the words from the 1st supporting "A woman's right is 1st amend." Thanks

 

ON EDIT ADD: You say "a governments main function is to keep the people safe" BUT SCOTUS says government is not obligated to protect an individual unless she/he is in custody. Self-defense is a personal responsibility.

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Response to jody (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:26 PM

7. so one should have shoulder to air missles?

 

nowhere does it state guns should be in the streets.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:28 PM

9. Hell' why not go with the nuclear bomb theory

 

You got it wrong in the thread .

Deal with it.

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Response to former-republican (Reply #9)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:40 PM

23. a gun violates everyones first amendment rights ask Dr. Tiller

 

they have no choice whatsoever when they kill all the kind meek doctors, and in a church no less

ask Dr. Tiller a gun violated his first amendment rights

therefore every person who might have gone in Kansas, no longer could

thanks to a gun.

the two issues have nothing to do with each other, the OP is 100% incorrect.

as are everyone who owns a gun.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #23)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:00 PM

45. No, actually, only government can violate one's first amendment rights..

and even if one could violate another's constitutional rights, an inanimate object certainly couldn't..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #45)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:03 PM

48. ask Dr. Tiller who would love to respond to your question ...also ask the following ...

 

CHARLOTTE BACON, 6
DANIEL BARDEN, 7
RACHEL DAVINO, 29
OLIVIA ENGEL, 6
JOSEPHINE GAY, 7
ANA G. MARQUEZ-GREENE, 6
DYLAN HOCKLEY, 6
DAWN HOCHSPRUNG, 47
MADELEINE F. HSU, 6
CATHERINE V. HUBBARD, 6
CHASE KOWALSKI, 7
JESSE LEWIS, 6
JAMES MATTIOLI, 6
GRACE MCDONNELL, 7
ANNE MARIE MURPHY, 52
EMILIE PARKER, 6
JACK PINTO, 6
NOAH POZNER, 6
CAROLINE PREVIDI, 6
JESSICA REKOS, 6
AVIELLE RICHMAN, 6
LAUREN ROUSSEAU, 30
MARY SHERLACH, 56
VICTORIA SOTO, 27
BENJAMIN WHEELER, 6
ALLISON N. WYATT, 6R, 6
ALLISON N. WYATT, 6

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #48)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:13 PM

59. Oh the hyperbole is thick, my my..

All were killed by people. All of them..

Oh, and did I mention how sickening it is when people pretend they speak for those whom they don't know, and in fact can't speak for themselves? There's a name for that...hmm..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #59)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:22 PM

65. they can't speak for themselves as a gun took their 1st amendment away enmasse

 

so guns are a 1st amendment issue
and a gun took away the women listed above's right to choice.

They did not get a choice because a gun violated their rights.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:31 PM

71. You are speaking for the "children"?

 

What about all the "babies" that were killed through abortion?

You don't seem to have focused upon the point made in the OP but are merely insisting that you can be a spokesman for the "children".

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #71)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:35 PM

73. the OP is 100% incorrect.

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #73)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:57 PM

81. Obviously not. And your fiction that firearms are "WMDs" is obviously a fiction.

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:23 PM

90. ROFL

Wow.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #23)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:07 PM

52. I thought you were off base there, but see you are looking at the intent and effects. Good.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:29 PM

10. Please cite the words from the 1st supporting "A woman's right is 1st amend." nt

 

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Response to jody (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:32 PM

13. Thomas Jefferson said all men are created equal. What about Blacks and Women?

 

to quote Buckwheat on the Little Rascals-
"ask me again and I'll tell you the same"

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #13)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:36 PM

19. .

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #13)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:39 PM

21. Never take more than three words to say "I don't know" and that was your correct answer to my

 

question "Please cite the words from the 1st supporting 'A woman's right is 1st amend.'"

Have a blissful evening.

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Response to jody (Reply #21)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:42 PM

25. I stand by what I said. Ask a person in Kansas about Dr. Tiller, a wonderful patriot who was

 

shot dead in a political rightwing extremist assasssination, and in a church

another coward who used a gun to extort a political goal

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:42 PM

26. Roe v. Wade is a 14th Amendment issue..

really has nothing to do with the first..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:46 PM

29. wrongo. Dr. Tiller's being silenced has everything to do with the 1st amendment

 

also the declaration
and the right to peaceful assembly

a person is free to go where they choose

the clinic closing in Kansas due to no doctor being available, due to the political assasssination that occured (and the acts of bullying) meant a person no longer was free to go where they wanted to assemble peacefully

life liberty and pursuit of happiness
all of those were taken from Dr. Tiller by a gun

sorry but checkmate, mate.
gun people have lost.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #29)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:06 PM

51. LOL

You said, "A woman's right is 1st amend.". This absolutely, couldn't be more wrong. "wrongo" indeed..LOL

ife liberty and pursuit of happiness
all of those were taken from Dr. Tiller by a gun


You really don't see how ridiculous that sounds, and in fact is? Really?

Truth is stranger than fiction around here sometimes..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #51)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:15 PM

87. The zealots never cease to amuse

Then again, his posting history makes it expected

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #87)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:21 PM

89. Whew..holy cow..

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:26 PM

67. SCOTUS disagrees with you

The right to an abortion is based on the right of privacy found in the penumbra of the constitution.

I think I spelled that right

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:17 PM

4. We already have the intrusive government

Intrusive to the point they fly helicopters around with sophisticated sensors making sure your house isn't too warm.

Might as well give them something productive to do because they sure as hell aren't going away.



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:09 PM

56. Yup

I'm skeptical about giving them one more thing to look for.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:25 PM

6. did you think this up all on your own, or is it the faxed talking point du jour?

Regarding each of your points:

1. Gun bans, proposed gun bans, and gun legislation do not come from a need to control others. You'll need to present some evidence for your claim.
2. Children (the living, non-zygote ones) are innocent. What's in dispute here?
3. What you're calling "intrusive government" is what we call "government". There's a reason to have government around, at least if you're a liberal.
4. There's no sense of moral high ground. There IS a moral high ground, and it's occupied, in this instance, by those who are sick of seeing people slaughtered on an everyday basis because people like you caterwaul about your darned gun rights. I've heard a lot more from gunlovers in the last month than I have from the parents of Newtown victims. You're goddamned right there's a moral high ground, and you're welcome to step on up whenever you're ready.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:36 PM

18. A gun ban (not comprehensive background checks)

 

IS telling another what they cannot possess. Control.

2. They are innocent. No dispute. So are zygotes.

3. I am ACLU. I know about intrusive government. No-knock warrants, illegal surveillance, etc. Leave me alone please.

4. You are staking the moral high ground against another when you assume they will murder while owning a gun. 99% don't.

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Response to banned from Kos (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:05 PM

50. Guns are weapons of mass destruction. Anything is acceptable imho to rid the streets of WMDs

 

just ask the following people who were mass destroyed by the weapon a gun is
CHARLOTTE BACON, 6
DANIEL BARDEN, 7
RACHEL DAVINO, 29
OLIVIA ENGEL, 6
JOSEPHINE GAY, 7
ANA G. MARQUEZ-GREENE, 6
DYLAN HOCKLEY, 6
DAWN HOCHSPRUNG, 47
MADELEINE F. HSU, 6
CATHERINE V. HUBBARD, 6
CHASE KOWALSKI, 7
JESSE LEWIS, 6
JAMES MATTIOLI, 6
GRACE MCDONNELL, 7
ANNE MARIE MURPHY, 52
EMILIE PARKER, 6
JACK PINTO, 6
NOAH POZNER, 6
CAROLINE PREVIDI, 6
JESSICA REKOS, 6
AVIELLE RICHMAN, 6
LAUREN ROUSSEAU, 30
MARY SHERLACH, 56
VICTORIA SOTO, 27
BENJAMIN WHEELER, 6
ALLISON N. WYATT, 6R, 6
ALLISON N. WYATT, 6

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #50)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:37 PM

74. "WMDs"? Are you one of those, after the 9/11 attack by Saudis, thought that there were WMDs in Iraq

 

By the way, everyone now knows that there were no WMDs in Iraq.

That was just made up as an excuse for the powers-that-be to do what they wanted.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #74)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:44 PM

76. What does Iraq have to do with WMDs? Guns ARE WMDs.

 

and we don't want Paul Blart Zimmermans killing innocent kids nor mass killers killing innocents

the gun people have brought this on themselves

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #76)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:52 PM

79. See. Even you get it. Just because someone says that there are "WMDs" to further their

 

agenda does it make it so.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #79)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:54 PM

80. guns are WMDs and should be treated as such. Anything goes as Cole Porter wrote

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #80)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:09 PM

94. If honesty matters, it is wrong to say "anything goes." Firearms are not "WMDs."

 

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #94)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 01:50 AM

109. yes they are, no matter how much you deny it. WMD=weapons, destruction, en masse=akaGuns

 

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Response to banned from Kos (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:07 PM

53. words matter

You said both groups had a NEED to control others. Nothing you've typed does anything to prove your assertion.

Zygotes are innocent, but they're not people. Anti-abortion nuts kill people (not zygotes). They're not about protecting the innocent.

Congratulations on your ACLU membership--hopefully they laminated the card for you. Meantime, please explain what no-knock warrants and illegal surveillance have to do with laws passed by Congress. Presumably a gun ban would go through congress, would it not? So is there a point here? Oh, and I'll leave you alone the moment you stop posting an opinion I vehemently disagree with on a public forum.

The moral high ground comes from a public health perspective. We could ensure that gun deaths drop by very significant percentages, but people like you and groups like the National Rifle Association have made that so difficult as to not be doable at present. Again, fuck yes there's a moral high ground. Come on up; you're welcome here.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:19 PM

61. Actually, they got it from *me*; see these posts from April & May, 2012:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117235299

"Two peas in a pod: Abortion restrictionists and gun control advocates"

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/117236520

"The Brady Campaign is again trying to make money off the dead."

Just as the American Life League, the Army of God, and Live Action claim to be acting on behalf of every zygote, fertilized egg, and stray sperm in the known universe, the various Brady Campaigns and their employees have never been shy about claiming to speak for all victims of gun violence...




I despise equally a)self-righteous gun Prohibitionists, )b the National Rifle Association, and c)fetus fetishists.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:27 PM

8. they don't equate because one involves PRIVATE MEDICAL DECISIONS.

PRIVATE.

see Roe v Wade

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:31 PM

12. Both are constitutionally protected rights... so the Supreme Court seems them the same way.

Neither guns nor abortion are ever going away.

Both sides just need to learn to live with it.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #12)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:53 PM

36. Hmm...maybe better said "...learn to die with it"? nt

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:30 PM

11. False equivalence indeed! eom

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:34 PM

14. Gun Control = Hitler. Nice Drudge-ery. nt

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:34 PM

15. Ban them all

We will see the say that all guns are banned First, we will outlaw these assault rifles and then take the rest in steps. There is no logical reason for ANYONE to own guns in modern America. None at all, no one needs to hunt anymore with a grocery store within walking distance of anyone. We have a military now, so that excuse it out. We also have multiple levels of law enforcement, so everyone has access to a cop when needed. Finally, we have turned the corner and have solid democratic control with a constant progressive shift, republicans are becoming obsolete. People buy guns to be able to kill other people. Just look at this gun nut, do you really want right wing nuts like this having guns?

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Response to Veridicus (Reply #15)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:40 PM

22. "everyone has access to a cop when needed"

You're being sarcastic, right? Right?

Oh, dear gods, please tell me you're being sarcastic...

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:45 PM

27. About what?

You want people like him with access to ANY gun? There is no need for people to own guns, they only buy them to shoot other people and claim "self defense". They fantasize about murder. This guy said he is going to kill people because he doesn't like a law.

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Response to Veridicus (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:00 PM

42. Oh, sorry...nothing to do with him.

I was referring to the bit I quoted in my subject title. About access to law enforcement protection. Apologies for not making that clear...

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #42)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:03 PM

49. I see it now

That is humorous if you were around for my first post that I missed that! It's a fact that if we outlaw guns crime rates will go down, all of those calls that police have to waste time on for gunshots or sounds of gunshots would be free for other reasons.

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Response to Veridicus (Reply #49)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:07 PM

54. That's an interesting theory.

There are certainly too many yahoos who fire their guns for "celebratory" reasons or just screwing around, and I'm sure a good portion of those shots (depending on where you are) generate wasted time for law enforcement. There are, however, a lot of areas in which the sound of gunfire is so common, no one bothers calling the cops when they hear shots...and I suspect a lot of that activity is by people who will ignore any gun ban (that is, habitual criminals, for most of whom gun possession is already illegal, since they're convicted felons).

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Response to Veridicus (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:41 AM

103. "no one needs to hunt anymore with a grocery store within walking distance of anyone."

Someone clearly has never left the city in their life.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:35 PM

16. I too am pro-choice on both issues

 

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:35 PM

17. Tell that to all the countries that have vastly less gun violence than we do

Australia, Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Spain, Japan, Portugal, Ireland, Iceland, Denmark, The Netherlands, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, New Zealand, Canada, United Kingdom, and a host of others.

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Response to dsc (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:56 PM

38. Agree there

A FaceBook friend from Germany can't understand why we have so many gun deaths here.

I told him it's "complicated". His response back was "Change it!!" I guess those countries "just do it."

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Response to rightsideout (Reply #38)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:59 PM

39. It isn't complicated

We have decided to let our population have virtually unfettered access to weapons that most countries restrict to their militaries. We then act shocked when our streets run with blood.

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Response to dsc (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:40 PM

75. You, of course, left out Switzerland.

 

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #75)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:50 PM

93. funny you mention Switerland

and I was so hoping someone one would. Switzerland has the highest firearm homicide rate in Western Europe, twice Finlands, nearly 2.5 times France, and over 10 times Norway's. Yes we are about 7 times theirs but they are the worst, dead last, in Western Europe. I wonder why that is.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:36 PM

20. Rubbish.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:42 PM

24. It's really too bad for gun enthusiasts that they have not more strongly stood up for other rights

I really can't think of a repressive government idea that gunners haven't been enthusiastic about, aside of course from any challenge to the right to own an arsenal.

Drug war? Love to punch those dirty hippies..

Patriot act? Them Mooslims are dangerous, they need to be watched.

Military Commissions Act? Dangerous Mooslims again.

Next up is going for the mentally ill, Wayne LaPierre teed off that effort a few days back.

A lot of you should have realized quite some time ago that you might want to join forces with others who would like their freedoms too.



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #24)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:49 PM

32. Did you miss my "I am a radical liberal" thread?

 

I say legalize:

All drugs
prostitution
abortion
any marriage
all immigration
euthanasia
gambling anywhere

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Response to banned from Kos (Reply #32)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:59 PM

40. The NRA supports none of those things, mostly supports Republicans

Like it or not, fair or not, the NRA is the face of the gun owners of America now.

If they had perhaps given a damn about anyone else's rights then maybe their crocodile tears would elicit more sympathy.

Many times I've heard the ACLU attacked viciously by gun enthusiasts.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #40)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:10 PM

58. What? I don't give a fuck about the NRA.

 

This is a total Non sequitor on your part.

I thought more of you before.

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Response to banned from Kos (Reply #58)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:30 PM

70. Not trying to be insulting, just telling you what I see

There are threads I don't go in because I know I'll end up a punching bag for someone no matter what I say, DU has a real tendency to pile on the scapegoat du jour.

I slipped a couple of times during this Newtown massacre thing and said stuff I later regretted and should have known better than to post but I was or am emotionally torn up about it.

Bear in mind I had a deer rifle pointed casually at me a couple of weeks after Thanksgiving, no idea if it was loaded or cocked, safety on or what, I just turned around and left as soon as that happened. Not a deliberate act, it was a hunter being careless with his weapon but it chilled me badly, there was a dead deer in the back of the truck with a hole blown in it.




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Response to banned from Kos (Reply #32)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:14 PM

95. Meh. And I am richer than bill gates.

Your center right posts here are legion. You might be in the "bill weld republican" mold, but that is so 1990.

But I digress. Your op is massively insulting to women.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #24)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:51 PM

34. Funny, some have - and been yelling for years about lack of choices/freedoms

Like when I say 'hey I am all for banning smoking in hospitals/etc, places people have to go but bars are for adults and is a choice' - and when I say I am for adults being ALLOWED to make choices I get called a libertarian.

I am pro-choice across the board because I believe in the principle and not just for a pet issue.

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #34)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:09 PM

57. ^Same here, Straight Story ^

I'm not completely libertarian, but more 'for freedom'.

The causes behind crimes involving weapons are what we ought to investigate. There are solutions which don't require abridging the 2nd and 4th amendment rights for the law abiding 99% .

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #34)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:05 PM

83. Agree! nt

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #24)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:53 PM

37. Fumesucker you mix lots of things. I personally know thousands of pro-RKBA folks and all of them

 

support every enumerated right.

When it comes to unenumerated rights SCOTUS says is or is not covered by the 9th or the expansive 14th then there can be disagreement. Not surprising because SCOTUS itself is seldom unanimous.

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Response to jody (Reply #37)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:17 PM

60. You say that like it's a bad thing...

You can't do just one thing, merely the act of observing something changes it however minutely.

I see everything as being interconnected to a greater or lesser extent, I look for those connections and try to tease them apart and see what makes them tick.

Gun enthusiasts as a whole are now represented in the public mind by the NRA, it's not my doing, I'm just reporting something I have observed. I've heard some really vile rants against everything the ACLU stands for from NRA members more than once and definitely haven't heard anything positive, I doubt I'm alone in this experience.

There's an old saying in business about it's six or however many times as hard to get a new customer as keep an old one, the NRA speaks for you in the public sphere at the moment and this is the perception that a lot of people have of the NRA, you're losing old customers and not getting very many new ones at the moment.




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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #60)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:26 PM

66. I speak & vote for myself. I help Democratic candidates campaign and I've had many LTTE published

 

on issues.

You painted with a brush too broad when you said "I really can't think of a repressive government idea that gunners haven't been enthusiastic about".

I can introduce you to hundreds of professionals, a few dozen politicians, and many, many blue-gray collar workers who would correct your allegation.

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Response to jody (Reply #66)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:13 PM

85. I live in a gun mecca, seriously

And I remember late 2001 very well, like it was yesterday.

Dubya had a 90% approval rating nationally and it was way higher than that here, Americans needed to watch what they said, watch what they did.

The gun owners were really standing up to big government then.










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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #60)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:50 PM

78. "Gun enthusiasts as a whole are now represented in the public mind by the NRA, ..." 1) No.

 

2) Not all firearm-owning Democrats and firearm-owning Independents are "gun enthusiasts."

Just as some people own fire extinguishers in their homes, their ownership of fire extinguishers does not make them "fire-extinguisher enthusiasts."


Identifying firearm-owning Democrats and firearm-owning Independents as being "gun enthusiasts" and persons who are now "represented ... by the NRA" is a great way to lose votes in the upcoming 2014 election.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:46 PM

28. Except that having an abortion doesn't threaten everyone else's lives.

Abortion doesn't injure or kill 60 people in a crowded movie theater, or 50 on a school campus.

An abortion affects no one but the woman having it; owning a gun puts other people's lives at risk (and without their consent).

They are not even remotely equivalent.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:48 PM

30. Zimmerman Zimmerman Zimmerman

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #30)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:50 PM

33. The RBKA extremists are hanging on to any strawbranch they can

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #30)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:23 PM

91. What about him? (n/t)

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Response to derby378 (Reply #91)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 01:53 AM

110. bill outlawing guns in the street, it should named in Mr.Trayvon Martin's memory

 

zimmerman shot an unarmed man just to watch him die
in the street
for no reason at all but to watch him die

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:49 PM

31. Both are and can be regulated.

We all know about regulations on abortion that pass constitutional muster.

Regulating 'assault' weapons and magazine size has/will pass constitutional muster, too.

I don't know of any reasonable person who is seriously advocating for banning and confiscating all guns.

I do know of crazy right-wing nuts in the U.S. House and Senate who favor banning all abortions.

So what is your point? Really?

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Response to earthside (Reply #31)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:00 PM

44. Senator Feinstein said “If I could’ve gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an

 

outright ban, picking up every one of them — Mr. and Mrs. America turn ‘em all in — I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren’t here.”

By your classification is she a “crazy left-wing nut"?

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Response to jody (Reply #44)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:45 PM

77. She was referring only to 'assault weapons' ....

.... not all guns.

We have banned civilian ownership of all fully automatic weapons and that ban is constitutional.

So, Feinstein is talking about a reasonable, if not probable position.
And she said that in 1995. I'm not sure that is her position today.

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Response to earthside (Reply #77)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:46 AM

105. "We have banned civilian ownership of all fully automatic weapons" - No, we haven't.

We really haven't.

I suggest you look deeper into it, because they can be owned legally, and are not "banned" for civilians.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:51 PM

35. Just bullfuckingshit. For you to equate the right of a woman to control her body,

 

including whether she gives birth if she gets pregnant, without interference from right-wing politicians doing the bidding of the religious right, with the right of anyone to have totally unrestricted, unregulated access to any type of weapon categorized as a gun, is disgusting.

A woman is a human being whose decision whether or not to give birth is utterly personal and private.

A gun is a thing whose purpose is to destroy something, often a human life, and the possession of which can have deadly consequences on anyone knowingly or knowingly in its vicinity.

For you to equate them is utterly cynical, utterly disgusting, and stinks beyond belief.

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:00 PM

43. I am NOT equating a woman with a gun!

 

I am equating a woman who makes a private decision with a citizen who decides to own a gun.

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Response to banned from Kos (Reply #43)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:58 PM

82. conflating a medical procedure with a consumer decision is rather convenient

"I am equating a woman who makes a private decision..."

I'll certainly admit that conflating a medical procedure with a consumer decision is rather convenient for those with a dogmatic faith.

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Response to banned from Kos (Reply #43)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:19 PM

88. "I am equating a woman who makes a private decision with a citizen who decides to own a gun"

 

You are equating a woman's right to make medical decisions for her body with a "citizen's" (so a woman is not a CITIZEN?) decision to own a potentially deadly commercial commodity that is often used to kill innocent people.

And you think that is a reasonable argument.

I think it's the vilest thing I've ever read on DU.

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #88)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:16 PM

97. The OP is reaching

And the false equivalency is...stunning.

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:29 PM

69. +1000

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:59 PM

41. Least persuasive talking point... Ever

at least on DU.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:01 PM

46. There is no similarity

A woman's right to control her reproductive health (a basic human right of self determination) has nothing in common with owning goods.

This comparison is as bad as that NRA nut likening gun control to racial discrimination.

Asinine!

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:03 PM

47. Wow - so now banning guns is a rigid religious & moral issue?

You guys are really reaching now...more fear & paranoia at work I guess.

1) need to control others

Nope - gun bans != people bans...(for comparison, see Wayne Lapierre and his take on the mentally ill)
Gunners won't control their 'tools', so the rest of us have to

2) Crusade to save the innocent

Damn straight - protecting the innocent is MUCH more important then your little inconvenience.

3) Intrusive Government to implement the law.

The role of governemnt is exactly to implement laws to protect its people, or as you like to call it, save the innocent.
"... how great a proportion of natural freedom is necessary to be yielded by individuals, when they submit to government, I shall not now enquire. So much, however, must be given up, as will be sufficient to enable those, to whom the administration of the government is committed, to establish laws for the promoting the happiness of the community, and to carry those laws into effect.

4) A sense of moral high ground.

Nope - no intial sense of being morally superior (though from seeing gun nuts in action, one is building that's for sure!...
& intelligently superior too), just common sense, and a LOT less selfishness.

Prohibition works. Just need the will to see it through.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:08 PM

55. Um, no

Banning guns is about not wanting you and your family to get killed why you're out in your day.

Banning abortion is about meddling in what's going on in someone else's uterus.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:19 PM

62. Possibly the dumbest pro gun argument I have ever seen.

Seriously, why not trot out the old 'people die in cars' thing...

LOL!

BTW, we know that guns restrictions DO work . So not only is your argument silly, it's flat out wrong.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:34 PM

72. Last time I checked, abortion was 100% legal in most countries with strict gun control,

such as the UK, Australia, and Japan (right off the top of my head.)

But go on with your bad self.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:08 PM

84. There are many similarities, to be sure.

I'll add to your list that both anti groups invent their own facts and language (since facts and language don't support their case), both groups claim a majority (which polls say they're not), and both groups employ bullying tactics to silence opposition, there is no interest in serious discussion.
If Dems lose in '14 or '16, I'm laying that loss entirely at the feet of the anti-gun zealots. Just like the "legitimate rape" GOPers, they just couldn't keep their mouths shut.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:14 PM

86. Stunning...and this goes after all the false equivalence s we have seen

Kudos for one that is breath taking!!!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #86)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:39 PM

92. read points 1-4 please.

 

and add one more - ZEALOTRY!

Yes, you and the anti-abortion crowd are zealots!

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Response to banned from Kos (Reply #92)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:15 PM

96. Wow, kudos.

You see, background checks are not gun confiscation. But given how effective the NRA was, right before Newton, and their latest idiocy.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:19 PM

98. I can see why you were banned from Kos.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #98)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 03:44 AM

111. +1

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:26 PM

99. Yet another NRA false equivalence

Last edited Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:51 PM - Edit history (3)

talking point. The need for abortion, and the need for guns have absolutely nothing in common.

If you are maintaining (as right-wing misogynists do) that women get abortions on a whim, or that abortions are just like plastic surgery, then you are definitely on the wrong political message board. FR is down the hall, and to your extreme right. Abortions are performed because there is a medical or psychological need, and is a difficult medical, and personal decision.

Owning guns, on the other hand, is definitely a "lifestyle choice," and guns have absolutely no other purpose than the one they are designed and manufactured for -- to kill living things. No one ever bought a gun to save the life of the mother, or because a 14 year old child was raped by an uncle and became pregnant. People buy guns because they can. Most responsible gun owners buy guns for specific reasons, and take full responsibility for them. The 2nd Amendment does not include the right to own as many guns as a person wants (not needs, but wants), to own any type of gun which is available, or the right to carry a gun anywhere or anytime one wishes (especially in the public arena).

The other part of this NRA bullshit talking point is that an "intrusive government" is coming to take away your guns. That's the Wayne LePew and Alex Jones rallying cry for the wannabe soldiers dressed up in phony camo, running around in the woods who would piss their pants if placed in real combat.

The reality is that the legitimate government representing the majority of the sane people in the USA is going to require the registration of most guns, and restrict the manufacture, sale, and importation of the most obscene of the "assault like" weapons. The legitimate government representing the majority of the sane people in the USA will do this because it is the correct thing to do. There are too many guns in the hands of too many people which are unaccountable to anyone. That will stop with the requirement to track registered guns and require background checks when they are sold, or their ownership is transferred.

And lastly, you are correct prohibition has a horrible track record. Conversely, regulation and sensible laws do work when applied to changing unhealthy social behavior. We have managed to greatly reduce the number of drunken driving deaths, cigarette use is on the decline, and the average life span is increasing due to food and drug regulation. Guns are a hazard to our collective health, and we will regulate them.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:22 PM

100. Now I know where you got this precious turd...

Thanks Lawrence...

Rush Limbaugh.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:09 PM

101. but common sense, regulations, and rules do work

the prohibition argument is lane because that is not what is being proposed.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:34 PM

102. Didn't the Puritans have guns?

Didn't they use guns to hunt deer, turkey (and Indians?)

The Puritans had no problem with private gun ownership, therefore gun owners = Puritans.

Makes as much sense as this absurd OP, and is historically accurate, to boot.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:43 AM

104. Stupid, stupid, stupid argument.

RW tripe.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:51 AM

106. Oh bullshit

Don't compare my body, my health, and my reproductive human rights in some red herring argument.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:54 AM

107. So.....you like Rush Limbaugh's talking points?

Perhaps if you took a moment to think before giving your "megadittos", you'd realize just how incredibly stupid your post is.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:55 AM

108. They are pretty similar, authoritarians. Big Brother government.

I'd compare them more to the teetotalers/prohibitionists/drug warriors/book burners but it all comes from a very similar place and you are dead on with the justifications.

I also worry about the complete disregard for balance, checks, and concentration of power of all kinds.

I'm definitely bothered by a seeming growing school of thought that asserts government grants rights rather than ensures them.

The lack of any consistent principles is alarming. Folks calling for house to house searches, pitching mandatory sentences, expanding all the terror war shit on the American people, and what the fuck ever just like the all the other crowds.

Nothing radical really. All of this nonsense is pretty new, almost all of it from the 20th century and all of it failed as failed can be. I think they are the radicals.
Between all of these "crusaders" and fearmongers, our rights are further encroached upon by the day and you're right, it is always for the CHILDREN and SAFETY.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 03:52 AM

112. .

Another FAIL.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 08:20 AM

113. Seat belts too.

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Response to banned from Kos (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:58 AM

114. Different issues.

Unless you believe that the issue of owning a gun is akin to controlling your own body, which would imply that the gun is simply an appendage of said body, which I think few people would argue.

Under your argument, any law is an attempt to "control others". So point 1 does not count as something joining gun laws and abortion restrictions together.

As to point 2, the argument about gun restrictions is not a crusade to "save the innocent". In fact the argument generally revolves around how many gun deaths there are, including the innocent and the not-so-innocent (gangs, etc.). Now the Sandy Hook incident did dredge up a lot of feelings in all of us about saving the innocent from such rampages, that I will concede readily. In that way it has served as a spark for a new conversation about gun restrictions. But this conversation has been going on for many years now and it has most assuredly not been solely about saving children from being killed. So it is not at all like the rabid forced-birth argument which has the fetus as a demigod while the woman bearing said fetus is a mere expendable vessel.

Concerning point 3, like point 1 it is immaterial, since any law requires the need for a government to implement the law. Your inclusion of the word "intrusive" is mere editorializing, hanging the right-wing meme of "intrusive government" out there to cause a negative reaction in our lizard brains.

As to point 4, yes most laws regulating behavior are based on some sort of moral ideal or "high ground". So? This again is not unique to either gun laws or abortion laws.

Finally. There is no, repeat no, move on anyone's part for gun prohibition. Restrictions, yes. Outright prohibition, no. So that's one thing. Also: as to your statement that "Gun violence will never end". That may well be true, but we do know that the rate of gun violence is much, much, much lower in almost every single other country in the world, even some which are quite well armed. We might want to take a look at why that is the case. I think that we'll find gun laws that are much more restrictive than ours are. Hmmm, I wonder if there might be some connection there? Nah, couldn't be...

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