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Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:53 PM

Is it possible for a man to be a feminist?



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminist?s=t


46 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
Yes, it is possible for a man to be a feminist.
44 (96%)
No. It is impossible for a man to be a feminist.
2 (4%)
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116 replies, 5937 views

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Arrow 116 replies Author Time Post
Reply Is it possible for a man to be a feminist? (Original post)
Nye Bevan Jan 2013 OP
lunatica Jan 2013 #1
Brickbat Jan 2013 #2
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #6
Brickbat Jan 2013 #15
hfojvt Jan 2013 #71
onehandle Jan 2013 #3
dawg Jan 2013 #4
KamaAina Jan 2013 #40
dawg Jan 2013 #44
yardwork Jan 2013 #105
closeupready Jan 2013 #5
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #7
closeupready Jan 2013 #11
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #12
closeupready Jan 2013 #18
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #21
closeupready Jan 2013 #25
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #29
closeupready Jan 2013 #32
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #37
closeupready Jan 2013 #39
Earth_First Jan 2013 #17
Earth_First Jan 2013 #8
HappyMe Jan 2013 #19
Egalitarian Thug Jan 2013 #34
NYC Liberal Jan 2013 #9
Waiting For Everyman Jan 2013 #10
KittyWampus Jan 2013 #13
seabeyond Jan 2013 #14
closeupready Jan 2013 #20
seabeyond Jan 2013 #22
closeupready Jan 2013 #27
seabeyond Jan 2013 #28
DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #78
seabeyond Jan 2013 #82
DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #84
seabeyond Jan 2013 #89
KitSileya Jan 2013 #50
closeupready Jan 2013 #54
KitSileya Jan 2013 #56
closeupready Jan 2013 #60
DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #79
closeupready Jan 2013 #83
DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #85
closeupready Jan 2013 #99
DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #104
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #24
seabeyond Jan 2013 #26
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #35
Jackpine Radical Jan 2013 #41
seabeyond Jan 2013 #46
MadrasT Jan 2013 #59
patrice Jan 2013 #16
Little Star Jan 2013 #23
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #33
demokatgurrl Jan 2013 #30
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #31
seabeyond Jan 2013 #36
closeupready Jan 2013 #38
leftstreet Jan 2013 #42
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #43
seabeyond Jan 2013 #47
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #57
seabeyond Jan 2013 #61
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #63
seabeyond Jan 2013 #65
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #66
Waiting For Everyman Jan 2013 #67
Proud Public Servant Jan 2013 #45
HappyMe Jan 2013 #49
seabeyond Jan 2013 #51
Proud Public Servant Jan 2013 #62
seabeyond Jan 2013 #68
seabeyond Jan 2013 #69
Proud Public Servant Jan 2013 #81
seabeyond Jan 2013 #86
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #88
seabeyond Jan 2013 #91
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #93
seabeyond Jan 2013 #111
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #114
Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #48
seabeyond Jan 2013 #53
forestpath Jan 2013 #52
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #72
yardwork Jan 2013 #106
seabeyond Jan 2013 #112
yardwork Jan 2013 #115
MellowDem Jan 2013 #116
demwing Jan 2013 #55
seabeyond Jan 2013 #58
demwing Jan 2013 #64
Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #70
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #73
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #75
Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #90
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #100
lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #92
Taverner Jan 2013 #74
Aerows Jan 2013 #76
Rex Jan 2013 #77
MissMarple Jan 2013 #80
NCTraveler Jan 2013 #87
1-Old-Man Jan 2013 #95
redqueen Jan 2013 #94
Waiting For Everyman Jan 2013 #101
redqueen Jan 2013 #107
Waiting For Everyman Jan 2013 #108
redqueen Jan 2013 #113
eltopomaravilloso Jan 2013 #96
CTyankee Jan 2013 #97
War Horse Jan 2013 #98
yardwork Jan 2013 #102
gollygee Jan 2013 #103
Quantess Jan 2013 #109
Little Star Jan 2013 #110

Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:54 PM

1. Yes

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:56 PM

2. It depends on one's definition.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:58 PM

6. Indeed. It is possible for men to support feminist causes

But it is difficult for a man to really understand a woman's situation.

By the same token, it is possible for a white person to support civil rights, but difficult for a white person to understand what it's like to be a person of color in America.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:07 PM

15. Exactly. Well said.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:36 PM

71. is the opposite true?

Is it easy for a woman to understand a man's situation? Is it easy for a black person to understand what it is like to be a white person in America?

I feel kinda stupid even asking that, because obviously there is no such thing as "what it is like to be a person of color in America". As if Obama, Michael Jordan, and Jamaal Somebody are all living the same life because they are all persons of color in America.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:56 PM

3. Yes, but I draw the line at wearing high heels. nt

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Response to onehandle (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:57 PM

4. I don't.

I could use the extra height.

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Response to dawg (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:45 PM

40. Neither do these guys

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #40)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:52 PM

44. And they rule!

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #40)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:23 PM

105. I LOVE that photo! Those men are feminists.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:58 PM

5. Really depends. Lots of American guys say

they are feminists but aren't really, IMO. Most men probably aren't smart enough or empathic enough to really be able to get what feminism is and what it means.

But yes, anything is possible, and some men are true feminists.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:00 PM

7. I'm curious

How is saying most men aren't smart or empathetic enough to be feminist more acceptable than saying most women aren't logical or smart enough to really be scientists?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:03 PM

11. What I mean is, liking female anatomy doesn't make

you a feminist, and I think that's as far as many men go 'intellectually'. Or "I love my wife, therefore, yeah, I'm a feminist."

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Response to closeupready (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:05 PM

12. OK. Interesting response.

I guess what you are saying is that most men are primarily self interested and only claim to be feminists because of the benefits claiming to be feminists get them?

Do women not think that way?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #12)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:11 PM

18. Some women, certainly. The thread is about men, though,

and that's why my post focused on men as feminists.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:14 PM

21. OK - than perhaps you would have better expressed yourself

by saying most people aren't smart enough or empathetic enough to see other points of views, rather than stating that it is males who have this deficiency.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #21)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:27 PM

25. No, because the thread is about men, not men and women.

I believe I am better-suited to opine about men - being one - than women, whose issues I generally tend to leave to women.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #25)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:32 PM

29. So it is your opinion that most men

"aren't smart enough or empathic enough to really be able to get what feminism is." It's not that most men lack the will to understand feminism - they lack the capability to do so.

At the same time you do not care to express an opinion about women's smartness or empathetic skills, is that right?

Not sure that's the best or most accurate answer to this question.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #29)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:35 PM

32. Not complicated. The thread topic is about men, not women, not

not 'men and women'.

Do you have a guilty conscience or something? Why does my post stick out so to you? Do you have family members or something who are sexist or chauvinistic?

Anyway, you don't have to answer those questions, but I'm not sure why you see a boogeyman when all you have is closeupready.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #32)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:41 PM

37. I enjoy discussion issues - that's why I participate on this board

I don't have a guilty conscience.

I just think that stereotypes are pernicious things that shut down thought and create problems. When you declare that most men are not smart or empathetic enough to understand feminism, you let most men off the hook. I don't think that's right. I think most men, if they stretch themselves a little and make an effort, can understand feminism - or at least understand some of the underlying effects of our male dominated society.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #37)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:44 PM

39. Okay, fair enough - that's a very plausible claim.

I do think, however, to some extent anatomy defines a large part of who we are, how we think, our fears, our sources of pride, etc. And therefore, almost all those who do not possess that anatomy can't fundamentally see the world through the eyes of those who DO possess that anatomy. With the exception of the Gender Studies Albert Einsteins, Linus Paulings and such.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:11 PM

17. Wow.

Just.Stop.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:01 PM

8. Trying to get this discussion off on the wrong foot already...?

Mission Accomplished.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:12 PM

19. That didn't take long.

Snark and insults 5 posts in.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:37 PM

34. I have to concur with that statement. Possible, but unlikely. n/t

 

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:02 PM

9. Yes. Do I think men can truly understand many of the things women experience? No.

But it is certainly possible for a man to be feminist.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:03 PM

10. Yes, of course.

Anyone can be an advocate for equal rights.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:07 PM

13. I "passed". I'm not at all concerned about the label & its application. My concern is attitudes

and behavior.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:07 PM

14. i would have said yes in the past. i have learned different. why we decide with women, that men

can be the voice of the cause, says something. yet, if it is with the black community or the gay community, we would never put ourselves in a position of being their voice.

i know when i look at race and gay issues, i listen, let them guide and support their voice. i would never assume to be otherwise.

it seems so often when i hear a man proclaim he is feminist, he is for womens rights. and i am all for that. but, he is really not a feminist.

since the whole premise of feminism is fighting the suppression of female voice, what does it say when men speak FOR women. not in a supporting role, but the role.

Can Men be Feminists?
It is crucial for men to be a part of feminist agency. If feminism is to attain its goal of liberating women, men must be a part of the struggle. Indeed, men probably bear more of the responsibility for ending oppression of women since patriarchal men have been the main perpetrators of that very oppression. But can men do this by becoming feminists?
Although I believe that men can be pro-feminist and anti-sexist, I do not believe we can be feminists in the strictest sense of the word in today's society. Men, in this patriarchal system, cannot remove themselves from their power and privilege in relation to women. To be a feminist one must be a member of the targeted group (i.e a woman) not only as a matter of classification but as having one's directly-lived experience inform one's theory and praxis.

A clear analogy can be made between male profeminism and anti-racism. Men cannot really be feminists anymore than whites can be black nationalists. However, men can be pro-feminist and whites can be pro-black nationalists. At the same time it is not enough to simply be a member of the disenfranchised minority to be either a feminist or a black nationalist. Feminism, like black nationalism requires political consciousness and even activism.

Sexism restricts roles for men as well as women. But while sexism impacts women more negatively than men it also affects individual women to differing degrees. Some women internalize sexist beliefs and subservient behaviors to a greater extent than others and do not/cannot embrace feminism.

Sexism negatively impacts men by forcing them into a hyper-masculinity which engages high-risk behavior and limits their emotional expression as full human beings. However, regardless of these and other secondary effects of sexism, men still benefit from patriarchy (the social system of sexism) whether or not they choose to fight sexism in others or themselves. Women, and feminists in particular, face the damaging primary effects of sexism and the wrath of patriarchal society whenever they resist their subjugated social role and often even when they don't. So if men cannot be feminists how can we be a part of a feminist agency? Does feminism address only women or doesn't it also address men in some way?


http://www.nomas.org/node/122

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:14 PM

20. Stop! Just STOP!



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Response to closeupready (Reply #20)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:18 PM

22. i thought i was really being told

to just.... stop. lol.

scared me for a moment. really do not want to get all hot and bothered.

well...

i agree with you above.

every man on du that proclaims he is a feminist has attacked a handful of us feminist that does not meet their standard of feminism with sexist and misogynist insults.

every. single. one. of. them.

now i ask.... if a man claims to be a feminist, but disagrees with a particular feminism, is it being a feminist to degrade, demean the womans sexuality to shut her up?

every one.

that taught me the difference between a man fighting for womens rights and a feminist.

not to mention how i would see my support of other groups. it just makes no sense.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:29 PM

27. yeah, you know I get what you mean.

Look at how my post above is getting skewered. Sigh.

I'm a liberal member of DU for, what, 8 years. I'm asked for an opinion. I give it. I am then told to shut up, sit down.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:31 PM

28. exactly. the men bring in their issue and it switches to, what about the men.

well, feminism isnt about the men. no, whattabout.

they are trying to override the voice of women holding to their position as a man.

that is a whole other conversation that can be had. but... not when discussing feminism.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #28)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:07 PM

78. Actually, I'm the one who brought up this issue, in a question to Will Pitt yesterday.

And since I brought it up, I can tell you very plainly that this was not a case of my "trying to override the voice of women holding to their position as a man". No, I was trying to find out what the commonly-accepted definition of feminism was, and find out if that's changing. So I did 5 minutes of reading before I posted. And in my reading, I found that the dictionary definitions of feminism seem to be inclusive of anyone who supports women's rights, and this includes men. I also found that there are some (women) feminists who would rather see the word defined to include only women. Men who support women are not feminists, but supporters of women's rights, or aides to women, or some other term besides feminist.

Will Pitt advised that the definition of feminism was just his opinion, then he said it was a fact, then he went back to stating it was an opinion. So I didn't get much help there, and as I saw you posting in that little part of the thread, I asked you what your working definition of feminism was. You told me you didn't have much time, but that your thinking on the matter was evolving. And you let me know it was a good question. That's why I was surprised to see you posting here that "they" (men, to include me, since I brought up the subject) are trying to override the voices of women. Slow down and read this next part very carefully: no matter whether it's called feminism or something else, I'm going to continue to support more equality for women, in the workplace, in society as a whole. I'm going to do this because it's what I need to do to live with myself. I'm going to continue to do this because it's what's right for me to do. I'm going to continue to do this because I do realize that I'm more privileged than most people on the planet, and I'm a liberal, and I want some equalization to happen, on lots of different fronts. You're going to think whatever you're going to think, and I'm going to keep on doing what I'm doing irrespective of anything you say, ever. All that having been said, I don't appreciate your attempted smear.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #78)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:26 PM

82. i answered your post

in the other thread, per the posts i see you make. i was addressing you. this thread is not about what you said yesterday. and i addressed you in the manner that i think you deserved to be answered, respectfully and appreciating the question. i cannot remember exactly my words but i think it was along the lines that as a person that supports gays and blacks, i do not see myself speaking for them, but a supporter of. and down thread was a little more in that that in the womens movement men tend to take over as the voice, the nature leadership role of a patriarchy society.

in this thread the couple men i am addressing are men that in the past have presented themselves in a consistent manner in womans issue that had me addressing it per their posts and my other experiences that i have had on du with men that have identified themselves as a feminist and then proceeded to use sexist language in order to degrade and shut up women that they did not feel represent their view of feminism.

that is what i am struggling with on defining men as feminist. that is the evolving i am talking about. it is very hard to put into words. but, my approach to you was different than in this thread, because it is different posters. if you read further below, you will have more of an idea where i am coming from.

if a man on du wants to call himself a feminist (and i am not talking to you right now), then so be it. in my book, because he wants the title, when i see so many ways he is not, wont make him so.

but, it is not something i am going to battle. people can call themselves whatever they want.

i was not putting your question yesterday, with what this OP is about and will challenging men to come on this thread claiming their feminism.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #82)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:28 PM

84. In that case, I'm sorry for misunderstanding you, and I thank you for answering

I do hope you can see how I thought I was the antecedent, the person being referred to, since I brought it up yesterday.

I am sorry for the error I made, seabeyond.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #84)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:45 PM

89. ya, well even in replying to you i really did not get that.

to me, i answered you honestly with respect.... cause that is how i took your question.

but now, ya, i can get why you felt that, lol, but was the furthest thing from my mind. i am glad you spoke up so it could be cleared up.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:17 PM

50. If he didn't know your gender at the time of the posting his replies

it would have been classic mansplainin'. "You should have said X to express yourself clearer" - how often haven't women heard that one! Or "You should have said it this way - otherwise you seem too angry" is a classic too.

For women need men to tell them how to express themselves to achieve equality, donchaknow. It's just them men being feminists, honest.

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #50)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:20 PM

54. LOL, yes, because men are smarter than women

and they obviously need men to tell other powerful men what they are REALLY saying.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #54)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:24 PM

56. I must admit the past couple of days have been very discouraging in DU

So many posters refuse to actually engage in the otherwise wonderful discussions about male privilege and rape culture. There are none so blind as those that will not see.

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #56)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:31 PM

60. Totally agree.

Separately, isn't it remarkable how contentious this board has become since Obama's re-election?

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Response to closeupready (Reply #60)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:09 PM

79. it's us dumbfuck men. We're not very smart, and we bring contentiousness

You know, just like you said, in your non-contentious and completely non-hypocritical way. Thank you.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #79)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:27 PM

83. Glad we found some common ground.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #83)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:36 PM

85. We haven't. I was just pointing out your bald hypocrisy

In one post you're bemoaning the contentiousness at DU. In an earlier post, in this same thread, you stated that most men aren't intelligent enough or empathetic enough to understand the subtleties of feminism. You did that with all the grace of a cement truck hitting a building. I see that you're proud of what you said, and I hope that means that you don't truly understand what you said, because if you did, you're a very malignant person. As it stands now, even if you don't fully understand what you've said, you're prejudiced and bigoted. Do you have an irrational hatred of men, or what you consider to be a rational hatred of men, or were you not telling the truth in your earlier post? Thank you.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #85)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:06 PM

99. I don't know what you're talking about, but

I'm familiar with your high drama postings here, so I'll just dismiss this as just yet another one. Cheers.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #99)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:23 PM

104. truth is a problem too, is it?

Hang on.......there. All fixed. Bye.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:24 PM

24. So does that mandate that men should not express opinions on traditionally feminist issues

Or more that men should be ready and willing to step aside and promote female voices in preference to their own?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #24)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:28 PM

26. a man is more than welcome to express his opinion. just as i am with black and gay issues. i also

know that not being black or gay, i am limited in knowledge and absolute have NO experience. so i mostly listen and learn.

but, this would be exactly what we are talking about.

men should be ready and willing to step aside and promote female voices in preference to their own?


feminism is NOT bout a man. it is about women. you asking if they should step aside, as a feminist, and promote female voice over their own... well, duh. lol. i say that lightly.

the problem i see with man stepping into the role of feminism is he consistently wants to bring his own voice, from his perspective, into feminism. and it is not about him.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:38 PM

35. Not sure I agree with that

While I do agree that men can get into Feminism in a paternalistic way which isn't very helpful at all, I am not sure that Feminism as a whole is strictly about women. If for no other reason than men currently hold an unjust and disproportionate amount of power in society as it stands today. That's political power, economic power, legal power, even down to interpersonal relationships and family relationships. Men are going to need to give up that power (the unjust disproportionate part of their power anyway) - and so the conversation has to involve them to a certain extent.

I do agree that listening initially is better than speaking, though. But that's true of most discussions.

Bryant

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:46 PM

41. One can be empathic without trying to be anyone's "voice."

And I will add that both men and women suffer from sex-role stereotyping. For women the penalties are obvious, but for guys they are no less real. A whole range of ways of being has traditionally shut off to women because of social demands, but that is also true for men.

One example in my family: My stepson is the primary caregiver for his daughter, while his wife is the primary breadwinner. He is a wonderful, nurturing man--better in some ways, I think, than the girl's mother--but I know he sometimes experiences great self-doubt about his role and circumstances.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #41)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:06 PM

46. yes. men can be empathitic. yes. men can be a wonderful voice.

and appreciated. and valued. and so needed. women cannot do it without a mans voice.

and btw, i agree totally with your example of your son. i am thrilled supporting more and more stay at home dads. i also automatically used the word SUPPORT. i am there to support them every step of the way.

here recently some men have been calling out feminists on du to address males sexism. they are DEMANDING that feminists fight there battle.

no. not my battle. it is theirs. they can speak out and i am all over it to SUPPORT them.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:31 PM

59. I agree with you. n/t

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:08 PM

16. Yes. & It's also possible for a woman to be a masculinist & . . .

it appears (he, he, ) that you all need a little "help" with that.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:21 PM

23. No. But they can be pro-feminism and support the cause....

By supporting feminism, men also help themselves.

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Response to Little Star (Reply #23)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:36 PM

33. If losing your dude card is "helping yourself", I agree.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:33 PM

30. I say yes

Former Senator George Mitchell is an example of one. There are many others for sure but he impressed me way back when.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:34 PM

31. Of course!

Is is possible for a male feminist to think some "feminist" concepts are bullshit without being torn asunder? That is a more difficult question.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:39 PM

36. so i have to ask. if you are white can you be the voice for blacks. if you are straight, can you

be the voice for gays.

would either of these groups welcome you to speak for them. would either of these groups listen to a white person tell him where he is wrong, or a straight person tell him where he is wrong? could you lead the organization for these two groups. would you be welcomed as an equal participant.

i really do not think so. and i think this mentality is the very basis to feminism and our contrived patriarchy. it is once again feeling that women should tread lightly with men, welcoming their power and strength and voice as our guide.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #36)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:41 PM

38. Bravo. You put it so well there.

+1000.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #36)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:48 PM

42. +1 Activism springs from a degree of consciousness

While I can have a conscious and empathetic understanding of what women, gays, persons of color experience and my activism can be vital, it is still not my experience

Great article you posted above - hope you'll consider making it an OP


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Response to seabeyond (Reply #36)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:51 PM

43. This may be the crux of the issue - Being a Feminist may not mean "voice for woman" to all people

If you were to ask me if I thought I was a good choice to represent woman I would probably say "I can do my best, but it would be way better to get a woman to do that."

If you ask me if I can be a feminist - i.e. support woman in achieving equality (which is what I understand feminism to be) I would say "Yes! I totally want woman to get full equality."

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #43)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:11 PM

47. "Being a Feminist may not mean "voice for woman" to all people". that would be the co opt of the

womans movement. it is now suppose to shift away from women and be a fight for ALL rights.

that exactly proves the point.

feminism goes beyond rights. feminism goes to the patriarchy and conditioning of this society that does harm to our girls... girls, that we are standing up for and speaking out for. it is not only about rights. it is about a whole culture.

it is easy to stand up for equal rights. it is the rest of the shit that is so hard.

you do not hear the blacks saying, what about the whites. you do not hear the gays saying, what about the straights. but now, men insist and a faction of feminism insists we say, what about the men. that tells you something.

you want to change the very defining group of who the feminist is from women to ALL people

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #47)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:29 PM

57. Well I think there are people who would disagree with your interpretation of Feminism

beyond myself. I don't think my position is extreme out out there - rather I think it is pretty common. Look at the poll results.

It is perhaps unfortunate that the term Feminist exists as it does - again - I can support Civil Rights or Gay Rights without claming to be the voice of black people or gay people. It seems like what would be best is if the term feminist were disentangled from the concept of womans rights.

I feel like i'm arguing in a minefield, but seeking understanding is worth the risk.

At any rate, there are perhaps two problems with two ideal terms.

Woman's rights - which means bringing economic and legal and political equality to woman, and
Feminism, which means reversing patriarchy and other negative conditionings - looking at what our culture means and how it harms woman.

You argue that men can support the former, but should have a very limited role in the latter - is that understanding correct?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #57)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:34 PM

61. each post i said men are valued, appreciated needed to SUPPORT. where have i ever suggested that men

cannot support.

whereas you say, feminism is not only about women but ALL people.

that would be the point.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #61)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:47 PM

63. I stand by that

While i think that woman are the most important voices in this cultural conversation - i don't think they are the only ones. And that's what we are talking about -a converation about the roles men and woman should play in society - what should be acceptable and what shouldn't be. And as such both men and women need to be part of the discussion, although women should take the lead.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #63)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:14 PM

65. and again i ask you, do you have the same role in the black movement and the gay movement? nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:22 PM

66. I don't agree that it is the same thing

I wouldn't presume to be the voice of the black community as i'm not a part of the community. I wouldn't presume to be the voice of the gay community because i'm not a part of that community. While i can play a role in promoting civil rights for blacks or gays, I can't go into those communities and speak for them. I can also take part in discussions of racial stereotypes and interpersonal relationships (i.e. those parts of this issue that interact directly with me).

On the other hand, while I am not a particularly good example of this (being single and male) - males are part of the same community that females are part of. I take your point that males need to do a lot more listening than they are now, and agree with that. But at the end of the day it should be a discussion which implies that all parts of the community need to participate.

Bryant

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #47)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:23 PM

67. Very interesting -- you say, "it is easy to stand up for equal rights..."



it is easy to stand up for equal rights.
it is the rest of the shit that is so hard.



I see, so if I am getting this right... you are NOT a feminist. A feminist is someone who advocates for equal rights of women. You are not as interested in that part of it? You are more focused on "the rest of the shit that is so hard". Is that right? So then what you are saying is that your "voice" is speaking for the culture wars aspect of it.

Well that clears up a lot for me. You have played the "definition game" with the word feminist. Since you are creating a new definition, then a new word for that is also needed to go with it, rather than glomming onto the word "feminist" which is already in defined use, as what it is.

How about "femisocialist"? Or "feminizationist"? Well I'm sure you can think something up.

I'm interested in the easy part of it, what a feminist actually is -- advocating for equal rights, and especially equal pay. Not the culture wars, not at all. I think people can raise their own consciousness as they see fit. But go for it if that interests you. I doubt that many will be volunteering for the head-makeover, but you never know, maybe some are into that.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #36)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:52 PM

45. Clearly this problem is linguistic, not political

No one would question that whites could support, work for, even die for (e.g., the Freedom Riders) equal rights for African Americans. Did that make them the "voice for blacks"? No, but it made them anti-racist and supporters of equality.

Today we see plenty of straights supporting and working for LGBT equality. Does that make them the "voice of gays"? No, but it makes them anti-homophobic and supporters of equality.

So I'm wondering why you think being feminist is the same thing as being the "voice of women." That does not seem to me to be an obvious definition. A more obvious definition of being feminist seems to me to be "being anti-sexist and a supporter of gender equality."

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Response to Proud Public Servant (Reply #45)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:15 PM

49. Very well said.

The "voice of women" thing is bothering me. As a white woman, I do not have the same life experiences as a woman of color.
I wouldn't presume to speak for them.

If men want to speak for you it is called the 'patriarchy'. What is it called when other women think that they should speak for me?

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Response to Proud Public Servant (Reply #45)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:17 PM

51. read my post above. 47. here is a cutsey onion article on it.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-finally-put-in-charge-of-struggling-feminist-m,2338/



Man Finally Put In Charge Of Struggling Feminist Movement

After decades spent battling gender discrimination and inequality in the workplace, the feminist movement underwent a high-level shake-up last month, when 53-year-old management consultant Peter "Buck" McGowan took over as new chief of the worldwide initiative for women's rights. McGowan, who now oversees the group's day-to-day operations, said he "couldn't be happier" to bring his ambition, experience, and no-nonsense attitude to his new role as the nation's top feminist.

"All the feminist movement needed to do was bring on someone who had the balls to do something about this glass ceiling business," said McGowan, who quickly closed the 23.5 percent gender wage gap by "making a few calls to the big boys upstairs." "In the world of gender identity and empowered female sexuality, it's all about who you know." McGowan, who was selected from a pool of roughly 150 million candidates, made eliminating sexual harassment his first priority before working on securing reproductive rights for women in all 50 states, and promoting healthy body images through an influx of strong, independent female characters in TV, magazines, and film.

"It's about time," McGowan said upon returning from a golf game with several "network honchos" in which he brokered a deal to bring a variety of women's sports to prime-time television. "These ladies should have brought me on years ago." McGowan claimed that one of the main reasons the movement enjoyed so little success in the past was that the previous management was often too timid and passive and should have been much more results-focused.

*

After McGowan successfully appointed three of his best men to lead Smith College's women's studies department and called in some favors to a number of powerful board chairmen to triple the number of female CEOs in Fortune 500 companies, analysts predicted that the feminist movement could achieve all of McGowan's goals by as early as 2009. "With a charismatic, self-assured guy like Pete pulling the strings, we might even see a female elected president one of these days," said Nathan Roth, an analyst at the Cato Institute. "Finally, the feminist movement has a face that commands respect."

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #51)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:38 PM

62. I take your point in post 47

and agree that feminism is not about "talking about the men" any more that the struggle for civil rights is about "talkinging about the whites." I guess my response to you would be that I believe that men can be feminist (as the husband of one feminist scholar and father of another, I'd damned well better believe that...and walk the talk as well) , but men who would seek to take up men's concerns in the name of feminism are not feminists. And don't even get me started on the "men's movement" and "men's studies"...

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Response to Proud Public Servant (Reply #62)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:25 PM

68. as i say, i have not seen it.

the men are great feminists as long as it is the right feminism. and if it is the wrong feminism, they have had no problem using sexism and misogyny to shut a woman's voice up, attacking with insults on sexuality in a demeaning and degrading manner, like so many men do in order to control and dominate women.

so, though there may be the man out there capable of being a true feminist, i have not seen it.

though, the ones that do not behave in that manner tend not to boast their feminist credential while insulting women.

maybe i have been conditioned by "feminist" men. telling me my experience and many other women's experience is irrelevant and this is the way we women should really feel.

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Response to Proud Public Servant (Reply #62)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:27 PM

69. so,

as a feminist, does post 66 work for you?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #69)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:20 PM

81. Somewhat, I suppose

The first paragraph, anyway. He loses me in the 2nd paragraph, where he gets slippery with his definition of community. He's not part of the black community, but he and women are part of the same community, and "at the end of the day it should be a discussion which implies that all parts of the community need to participate." So does that mean if he lived in my neighborhood -- 1/3 white, 1/3 black, 1/3 Hispanic -- "whiteness" would need to be part of any conversation about race? I can't get on board with that.

Here's where I come down in the end. Let's leave feminism out of it for a moment. In addition to generally being liberal/progressive, my wife, my daughter and I have each, in the course of our lives, been strong advocates for disadvantaged groups to which we ourselves do not belong. My wife, a white woman, is a strong voice against racism in particular; I, a straight man, have tried to be a strong voice against homophobia in particular; my daughter, who has no physical or mental disabilities, is becoming a strong advocate for the rights of the disabled in particular. None of us would presume to speak for these groups, let alone attempt to set their agendas; but we want to help.

So -- and this is an honest question -- what would you call a man who responded to the struggle against sexism the way we have responded to the struggles against racism, homophobia, and discrimination against the disabled? The term for someone who traditionally advocates on behalf of women's equality is "feminist." Is there a different term you would use?

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Response to Proud Public Servant (Reply #81)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:36 PM

86. pro femism or allie to feminist is just fine. why do you need a title? you do not need a title

to support disabled, blacks or gays.

and as far as i can see, from the beginning he weakens the feminist movement of being a womans voice by saying it is not the same as blacks and gays and not about only women. why should our movement be different? and why should it be treated differently?

this makes absolutely no sense to me at all. it seems to be the very issue we are fighting.

blacks have their movement with their voice and our support.

gays have their movement with their voice and our support.

women do not really have a movement because the men have to be a part with our voices equal? can women not run their movement with men as support? or must men be a part of our voice directing and guiding and telling us whether our experiences are valid or not?

are women really so different from blacks and gays that we cannot have our own voice?

as i said above. call yourselves whatever you want. i do not need this battle. truly. just makes no sense to me. as a woman that is perfectly capable of identifying my experience and interpreting them without being told what i really feel....

whatever.

but, i dont get this contradiction.

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Response to Proud Public Servant (Reply #81)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:41 PM

88. You are right that could have been better worded

I guess what I am driving at is participation. If you participate in a community or a neighborhood than you should be a part of that neighborhood discussion hopefully moving it forward. For example if I lived in a neighborhood called Neighborhood X, which was an integrated neighborhood, I would take part in the discussions within that neighborhood, some of which might hit on racial or LGBT or gender issues. I wouldn't be taking part in them as a white person per se, but as a citizen of neighborhood X.

As for larger communities - such as the black or gay community, in the abstract, I wouldn't presume to speak out on those issues - I guess when it comes to the community of woman in general, I wouldn't speak on that either - but listen.

That said I take the definition of feminism to be very broad - reaching up to such national and political issues, but down into familial relations and such. Feminism in this broadest definition has strong implications on how you would raise your daughter or son, how you treat your wife, how you treat woman around you, who makes decisions and how are those decisions made among friends. Patriarchal ways of looking at things can be part of society from Congress to the Board Room to the Chapel to the School Yard to the Home. And in so far as you are part of that subset, you should be part of that discussion, in my opinion.

That said, as I have said above, you are best off listening more than talking.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #88)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:49 PM

91. but it is womans movement just like it is blacks and gay movement. WOMEN define themselves, not men

helping to define us. we can do it all by ourselves.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #91)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:53 PM

93. Maybe an example would help me understand

Consider - I am sitting with some friends who are mostly women and they begin discussing "Beauty and the Beast" (I reference this because it was used in a discussion last week), and what the story really means for the patriarchal state. At what point would it be appropriate for me, as a male, to participate in the discussion? Or, as that is a conversation one that i should listen to without participating in.

It's possible I've been extending your assertions farther than you intended them.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #93)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:50 PM

111. participate. discussing beast sitting up an abusive relationship dont say, but men are abused too.

you have then derailed the conversation of womens issues, dismissed womens concern and redirected to talk about men.

discuss it. it was a really interesting article. i like how the writer wrote it out.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #111)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:32 PM

114. Hmmmmmmm

OK - than I think i see where you are coming from. I think it would be fine to give my point of view on it or to comment on how I came to the text, but not to insist that that's the correct point of view or that others views on it are irrelelvant.

I have some more thoughts on the term feminism but still mulling them over in my head.

Bryant

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #36)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:13 PM

48. My answer to all 7 of those questions would be "no".

But none of those 7 questions is the poll question.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #48)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:19 PM

53. right, because for some reason in a patriarchy the womans movement would be different. go figure. nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #36)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:18 PM

52. +1

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #36)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:37 PM

72. "The voice"? No. "A voice" yes.

Despite being neurotypical, I am a voice for the disabled, and to be honest, it doesn't matter to me if any individual person with a disability doesn't like it or me. I'm still going to do what I do.

If I felt similarly passionately about advocacy for women, I'd call myself a feminist, and I really wouldn't care if those empowered to decide such things approve of that label.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #36)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:24 PM

106. I don't think that identifying as a feminist means that people claim to speak for women.

I believe that the definition of feminism is to promote equality for women. Men can do that. Many men do that.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #106)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:56 PM

112. as i have said repeatedly, i use to believe that. and maybe the experience over the last year

of sexist and misogynist attacks from male duers that claim being a feminist yet attack a group of us using demeaning and degrading sexual insults has colored me. maybe if i met a man that was merely there to support and not there to invalidate experience of women, i would be more on board.

it was not long ago i too felt men could carry the title. i do not feel that way anymore. and that is NOT suggesting that i do not value, appreciate and feel we NEED mens voice. i am totally consistent of not only saying rah to all men that support women, and thanking them, but have consistently said how important it is for men to speak out. that men listen to their peers way before they are going to listen to women. but, i feel that the womens movement need to have women as leaders and women defining who we are.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #112)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:11 PM

115. I agree that it takes more than saying one is a feminist to be one.

Just because a person claims to be a feminist does not make it so. The proof is in the pudding. One has to walk the walk and talk the talk.

I was responding to your earlier point that men can't represent the point of view of women. I agree with that. It's just that I think that those are two separate ideas. People can be feminists without being women, but they can't represent the point of view of women unless they are women.

Phylis Schlafly, for instance, is definitely not a feminist. But she does represent the point of view of a woman. Will Pitt is a feminist (in my opinion) but he can't represent the point of view of a woman because he's not a woman.

Transgender women who identify as women are women and represent the point of view of women.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #36)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:08 PM

116. What a horrible analogy, and it's part of the problem...

Any group based on race or sexual orientation should be able to listen to legitimate criticism from any other person if they want to be halfway rational. They don't have to accept it and they don't have to agree with it. Can these groups be wrong, even about their own identity? Of course, considering that each group has opposing sides within them anyways. Log Cabin Republicans anyone? Can a straight person not legitimately criticize them? If their straightness is worthy of dismissing their legitimate criticism, then it's not rational. Can white groups not be legitimately criticized by black people? Really? I mean, there are many white groups I can think of that would never accept the opinion of someone else of another race on their group, and guess what, that's not a rational idea.

Course, these groups can never have someone be "the voice" for all gays or all blacks, much less all women, which is not what feminism is about anyways, because individuals don't get to choose their sexual orientation or gender or race, much less the "voices" of these non-chooseable traits. Political groups or activist groups within these social groups? Sure. You choose to be a part of them, or not, no matter your race, gender, etc.

I would hope that any group would welcome anyone who agrees with them, no matter their race, gender, etc. would welcome them to speak for them, or listen to others outside their group, or actually admit being wrong even if the person telling them isn't part of their group. I would also hope you could be welcomed as an equal participant. The fact that you think you can't and won't is the crux of the problem. It is not rational to act this way, it is the worst kind of identity politics, and it's not something that should be condoned or supported. It's what many on the right do, though, attributing people like Al Shartpon to being "the voice" of all black people, for example. And it also is the sort of logic that gives tokenism its power. As long as you're part of that group, so this logic goes, the ONLY other people that can legitimately criticize you must be part of that group. That is not rational.

There are many women opposed to feminism, and it is as legitimate for men to call those women out as for women to. Not more so. But just as legitimate. It is GOOD to have people with different perspectives agreeing on the same philosophy, and each perspective does nothing to diminish the legitimacy of a philosophy. Feminism isn't about who knows more about being a woman, it's why should women be treated equally, why should genders be treated equally.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:23 PM

55. Despite what Will Pitt thinks

How can anyone say it's not possible for a man to advocate for equal social, political, legal and economic rights for women?

Just because a post is written with eloquence, and 99% of the content is valid, does not make the 1% measure of bullshit smell any nicer.

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Response to demwing (Reply #55)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:31 PM

58. it's not be possible for a man to advocate for equal social, political, legal and economic rights f

i do not know that there is a single person, anywhere, that would make that statement.

the statement was, men are not feminists. they are absolutely appreciated, valued and greatly needed to " it's not be possible for a man to advocate for equal social, political, legal and economic rights for women?"

and they are well rewarded. they get tons more praise and pats on the back for speaking out. whereas the very feminists are routinely trashed and insulted and called names. this is one of my favorites.


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Response to seabeyond (Reply #58)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:48 PM

64. It's a basic categorical syllogism

1. A feminist is defined as "someone who advocates for equal social, political, legal and economic rights for women."
2. Some men advocate for equal social, political, legal and economic rights for women.
3. Therefor, some men are feminists.

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Response to demwing (Reply #55)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:27 PM

70. For some reason...

There are elements on this discussion board who think that highlighting our differences and creating false arguments is a winning strategy.

Herb Adelson and the Koch Brothers have spent millions trying to push wedge issues in order to divide Democratic voters, but you can come to Democratic Underground and watch people do it for free.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:51 PM

73. If feminism were about equality, then of course they could.

But it's not. It is about advocacy for women. Advocacy involving only two parties is adversarial, and like it or not guys, you hold the other end of the rope.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #73)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:54 PM

75. The other end of the rope - interesting terminology

Is that indicating that we are complicit on holding woman back?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #75)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:45 PM

90. Interesting that some people see this as an "adversarial" issue. (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #90)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:09 PM

100. It is, and arguably should be.

The below is why men and women now earn the same wage for a given unit of work.



Now that we've reached the point of success, it is not inappropriate for someone to point it out.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #75)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:52 PM

92. No more so than women's end of the rope is holding men back.

Two parties, each advocating for their interests will reach an equilibrium.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:52 PM

74. I am.

 

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:55 PM

76. This isn't a productive question

Though it could turn into a productive conversation. Men and women live extremely different lives, and you first have to define what a feminist is among men and women.

Women and men can get along just fine when there is mutual respect.

EDIT: And we don't live such divisive lives, either, when we exercise respect for one another. When a woman respects herself just as much as she respects a man, and respects other women the same way, too, you have fewer problems. I'm not a victim, never will be, and most of the men around me don't play like they are victims of female aggression, either. Both sides play it up when they want pity.

Pity is for the weak.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #76)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:59 PM

77. That is it in a nutshell.

Your last sentence.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:13 PM

80. I'm for equal rights for everyone, for every human being.

And, how coincidental, I am a human being, too! Does that mean I may have a conflict of interest, or is that a requirement to be such an advocate? I'm going with neither.

Here's to rights, human, civil and otherwise.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:39 PM

87. I don't think so.

But I do think they can be ally's.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #87)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:55 PM

95. Agreed.

I think you are exactly correct.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:55 PM

94. No.

Last edited Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:26 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.nomas.org/node/122

...

Although I believe that men can be pro-feminist and anti-sexist, I do not believe we can be feminists in the strictest sense of the word in today's society. Men, in this patriarchal system, cannot remove themselves from their power and privilege in relation to women. To be a feminist one must be a member of the targeted group (i.e a woman) not only as a matter of classification but as having one's directly-lived experience inform one's theory and praxis.

A clear analogy can be made between male profeminism and anti-racism. Men cannot really be feminists anymore than whites can be black nationalists. However, men can be pro-feminist and whites can be pro-black nationalists. At the same time it is not enough to simply be a member of the disenfranchised minority to be either a feminist or a black nationalist. Feminism, like black nationalism requires political consciousness and even activism.

Sexism restricts roles for men as well as women. But while sexism impacts women more negatively than men it also affects individual women to differing degrees. Some women internalize sexist beliefs and subservient behaviors to a greater extent than others and do not/cannot embrace feminism.

...

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Response to redqueen (Reply #94)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:21 PM

101. by Brian Klocke. So he's the voice of feminism? He decides what it is?

OTT ironic.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #101)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:28 PM

107. That in no way follows logically from what I posted.

Of COURSE he doesn't "decide what it is"

He just gets it. Like many other male allies.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #107)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:31 PM

108. You are offering his points with his link, aren't you?

Seems to me, that makes it his ideas you're presenting here... as how feminism is, or should be.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #108)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:03 PM

113. I can find so many more by women and post them here.

You could too, if you bothered to read about how feminists think about the issue.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:59 PM

96. I am a feminist and I am a male.


And I know a lot of men like me.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:01 PM

97. My husband, my son and my two sons in law are all feminist males.

They also love strongly feminist women and are fathers of feminist girls and women. I have no problem calling them feminists and they are proud to be called feminists.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:05 PM

98. I'm very much anti misogyny and pro equal rights.

And I can empathize, very much so, but not quite as deeply as I thought I could I'm realizing, as I delve deeper into this issue. Even though I am, in some respects, as Robert Frost's kinda put it 'born with the nervous system on the outside'.

And this really shouldn't a be wedge issue (especially on DU).

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:22 PM

102. Yes. My two sons are definitely feminists.

In fact, one of my sons was the only male charter member of a feminist group at his university. (He said that he knew to stay quiet most of the time in meetings, though.)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:23 PM

103. It depends on how you define it

By that dictionary definition, obviously yes. Men can advocate for the social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men.

But I think feminism should be defined by women, and the word feminism should be defined by feminists. And we will no doubt disagree, which is fine, but it's still our movement to define. I am not bothered by women who want to define feminism, or the word feminism, differently than I do, because it's their movement as well as mine. But it is not the movement of men, and when men get involved in the definition of it, it turns into them telling us what feminism is and what we should be working for, and why we aren't "real feminists" who say things they like to hear better, or something along those lines. Our movement isn't about making men feel good about themselves, or about giving men pats on the back for being decent human beings. I don't expect LGBT people, or people of color, to give me a pat on the back for not being a homophobic or racist bigot. I don't expect them to include me in defining their movements.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:37 PM

109. I don't want to seem petty about this, but I say no, not really.

How about "Honorary Feminists"?

I'm not going to outright tell a man he can't call himsellf a feminist if he wants to, because that's not very nice, and I don't want to be unappreciative of the moral support. But honestly, no, not really.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:39 PM

110. "Men, in this patriarchal system, cannot remove themselves from their power and privilege

in relation to women." That was said by a man.

Here's more of what he had to say....

Can Men be Feminists?

It is crucial for men to be a part of feminist agency. If feminism is to attain its goal of liberating women, men must be a part of the struggle. Indeed, men probably bear more of the responsibility for ending oppression of women since patriarchal men have been the main perpetrators of that very oppression. But can men do this by becoming feminists?

Although I believe that men can be pro-feminist and anti-sexist, I do not believe we can be feminists in the strictest sense of the word in today's society. Men, in this patriarchal system, cannot remove themselves from their power and privilege in relation to women. To be a feminist one must be a member of the targeted group (i.e a woman) not only as a matter of classification but as having one's directly-lived experience inform one's theory and praxis.

A clear analogy can be made between male profeminism and anti-racism. Men cannot really be feminists anymore than whites can be black nationalists. However, men can be pro-feminist and whites can be pro-black nationalists. At the same time it is not enough to simply be a member of the disenfranchised minority to be either a feminist or a black nationalist. Feminism, like black nationalism requires political consciousness and even activism.


Read the whole article by Brian Klocke at The National Organization for Men Against Sexism - NOMAS website here:
http://www.nomas.org/node/122

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