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This message was self-deleted by its author (seabeyond) on Fri Jan 11, 2013, 01:10 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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Reply This message was self-deleted by its author (Original post)
seabeyond Jan 2013 OP
Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #1
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LiberalLoner Jan 2013 #76
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bettyellen Jan 2013 #98
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redqueen Jan 2013 #24
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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:25 AM

1. “Most men fear getting laughed at or humiliated by a romantic prospect while most women fear

rape and death".

“It is understandable that the perspectives of men and women on safety are so different--men and women live in different worlds...at core, men are afraid women will laugh at them, while at core, women are afraid men will kill them.”

― Gavin de Becker, The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence

I read this book a long time ago and highly recommend it.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:30 AM

3. i never thought to share with the men and boys in my life, our different perspectives.

but then recently, the discussions on women avoiding rape, and men dont rape, led me to make some comments in my house, about how women walk life differently.

then listening to the contradictions on du. all the things we are suppose to do to "prevent" ourselves being raped, yet lectured we should not be fearful or even carry out the suggest to preventing rape because it hurts mens feelings has really brought this to the forefront of thought.

thanks for your post.

i have shared with boys, and it has been enlightening to them. i wish, as genders, we can discuss this for the purpose of awareness, not accusations.

thanks.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:11 PM

76. +1

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:30 AM

4. Agree: Gavin de Becker's book is great. n/t

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:05 PM

98. I wonder if nice guys have any idea how badly some men take rejection... because I've never

had one go off and be incredibly ugly to me in front of their friends. It seems to be something they do on the sly- away from their friends.

When I think back on all the times people have been nasty and abusive to me, the list is 98% guys who I very politely declined to date or give my phone number to.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #98)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:51 AM

255. Same experience for sure

Turning guys down was very tricky. You had to be gentle with how you said it or they'd get upset and call you a bitch (and then a slut or whore when you went out with someone you were interested in), but at the same time you had to be very specific and explicit about not being interested or they would keep pursuing and you'd be accused of playing mind games.

I'm very happy to be out of the dating game.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:28 AM

2. EXCELLENT OP! and Link.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:32 AM

5. I think it was Susan Brownmiller who said,

"Not all men rape--but all men benefit from the fact that some men do."

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Response to Brigid (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:36 AM

6. wow. that is a keeper. thank you. nt

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Response to Brigid (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:37 AM

8. that was the quote, thanks.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:39 AM

10. Sorry, but I think that's a really stupid statement.

I fear for my wife and daughters being raped, and I think that most men would feel the same. It is highly insulting to suggest that we "benefit" from the fact that rape exists.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:42 AM

12. it is really important i think

to shake off the personal responsibility. you are not responsible for a rapist.

but, like with white privilege that is so hard to understand, this would be another. it is not accusing men who are appalled of rape, of condoning rape. that is not the point of the quote.

it really really is not personal.

i KNOW you love your daughters and wife. i KNOW you will always be there for them regardless. and every other that is abused. this is not about you.... honest.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:46 AM

14. Well she shouldn't have said "ALL men" benefit from rape, in the quote.

Because that includes me. It also includes your sons. Are you happy for your sons to be included in her statement? The vast majority of men hate rape, and making over-the-top sweeping statements about "all men" benefiting from it are about as useful as the creepy men who claim that "all women really want it".

I am not familiar with this person but I wish that the DUers praising her would acknowledge that she should not have said "all men".

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:53 AM

24. The quote is accurate. All men, as a class, benefit. nt

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Response to redqueen (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:54 AM

25. All men benefit from rape........

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:05 AM

39. Yes, *as a class*.

This isn't about YOU, personally.

This is a MACRO analysis.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:11 PM

229. No...

It's pure sexism, dressed up as (pseudo)intellectualism. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #229)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:00 AM

241. +1. all men don't benefit from rape, & all whites don't benefit from racism. southern whites,

 

for example, were 'benefited' with low wages, low unionization rates, and political corruption that kept e.g. white tenant farmers as well as blacks in slave-like conditions.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:08 AM

42. Yes, as a class.

Just as all white people, whether they are racists or not or want to or not, get advantages from being white due to the racism in our society.

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Response to LisaLynne (Reply #42)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:32 PM

155. I agree with you and I am caucasian as well. n/t

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Response to whathehell (Reply #155)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:37 PM

157. why is it so easy for us white women to acknowledge and see the privilege and not feel

like we have ownership of the guilt but understanding of the results and so hard for too many men, though, i tend to see the majority of men on du right there with us in recognition.

because we see it in male privilege is my guess. allowing us a two way view.

and also black men more readily accepting of male privilege.

that alone should be a clue in.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #157)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:28 AM

244. " Because we see it in male privilege is my guess, allowing us a two way view and also

black men are more readily accepting of the privilege".

Bingo. There you have it, IMO. White men sit at the TOP

of the social hierarchy, especially, I suppose, straight white men,

although sexual orientation is generally a lot harder to perceive than gender,

and I have, as have many other women I know, been the target of sexism

from gay men on numerous occasions.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #244)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:33 AM

246. that was a surprise to me, but a lesson learned. you are right. nt

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:11 PM

75. Just like all women benefit from Hypergamy. Pretty little lies. NT

 

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:51 PM

92. Exactly the way all caucasians benefit from institutionalized racism.

And yes, I'm a caucasian. And I think racism is HORRID. And I try very hard to be conscious of how it shapes the world I live in, and to counter it any way I can.

But I STILL benefit from a culture that values my melanin deficiency above the pigmented skin of other people who are kinder, smarter, harder-working, more talented, creative, loving, funny, motivated human beings than I am. I just DO.

And the very, very, VERY minor "down side" that some people of color make negative assumptions about me because of my melanin deficiency doesn't even begin to offset the level of benefit I experience because the society I live in has been substantially shaped by racism and has not yet re-shaped itself (and won't for a few more generations at best) to eliminate those institutionalized assumptions about race.

Look, Scalzi says it way better than I can:

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

helpfully,
Bright

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:07 PM

99. for example, a parent of a daughter indirectly benefits from real world dangers to girls

in terms of having reasons to keep her close to home and under the parents' protection.

I know, it doesn't SOUND like a benefit, but in the larger scheme of things it could be seen as a controlling influence.

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Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #99)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:48 PM

124. I would say that a little differently ...

I would say, specifically, all men benefit from parents' citing to the real world dangers to girl in terms of having reasons to keep her close and under the parents' protection (read: and out of competition with men or limiting of the daughter's choices or convincing her that either she is unable to take care of herself, or should expect others to take care of her ... i.e., also out of competition with men).

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #124)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:19 PM

142. exactly! it reinforces the gender roles.. and parents do find it useful- expecting daughters to be

caregivers later in life for instance, assuming men cannot or should not. That is no small thing to ask, and society largely grooms us to take this on.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #124)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:50 PM

147. thanks 1StrongBlackMan--I was having a lot of trouble articulating my thoughts there!

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:09 PM

100. it's not that you want or personally enjoy the "benefit" yourself. but that society as it is now,

is giving it to you on a silver platter.
the benefit is there, and you have the advantages of it whether you "enjoy" them or not.
same as racism.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:37 PM

118. Look at the broader picture....

What is being said is not that all men benefit from the physical act of rape, but that men as a gender/class benefit from the fact that women fear, at a very basic level, men. It is what has kept men in power for thousands of years...just look at the disproportionate number of women in our own government. Rape is the most demeaning expression of that power. We have moved past the time when a husband could murder his wife with impunity, but the exercise of control though rape remains.

I'm sure you would reject any and all power conferred by the fact that some men rape, if you could. However, you don't have that option.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:55 PM

233. It's very difficult, I think, for individual men

to know when they have benefited from the existence of rape, and the fear that rape instills in women. Generally speaking, those benefits are subtle, but nonetheless they still exist.

For instance: think back over your life. Has there ever in your life been the possibility that you've gotten a leg up going for a job, because women -- half of your potential competitors -- might feel uncomfortable working that same job, because of the threat of rape? Perhaps you got a job on a night shift, because women qualified for the same work were worried about being out alone that late, walking through a near deserted parking lot. Maybe you were willing to work later hours than the women at your work place--and thus were more able to impress your boss--because of the same fear. Maybe you were able to take a job in an area that women might feel unsafe venturing into alone--especially if they didn't own a car -- while the same fear wasn't a part of your mindset.

Maybe a woman at your workplace, someone who might have been a competitor, had to take time off after being raped. Maybe they were sexually harassed by the boss--and had to quit. Maybe one of your women classmates had to drop out of school because she was raped on campus--meaning you had a better shot at limited scholarship money.

Generally speaking, whenever I talk to my male friends about this, they first deny any possibility that they derived any such advantage, but eventually they come around to saying, "There WAS this one time when..." and mention some way that they were able to better compete for something they wanted, because their female competitors either had an experience of rape or sexual harassment, or had to worry about being raped, or assaulted, in a way they didn't even have to think about.

There are a hundred thousand different ways that women (and girls) are constrained in their lives by the fear of being raped. Often this fear is unspoken, almost unconscious--yet there it is. And very often men who benefit from this fear--from the constraints it puts on women, from the way it hinders women in so many aspects of life -- have no idea they have in fact benefitted.

Again, this isn't meant as a personal attack, but as a statement of a reality that women face.

To change an injustice, you have to first be aware that it exists.

To end oppression, you have to first understand the details and mechanics of how that oppression works, as painful as that may be.

I just wish I could better articulate what I'm trying to say.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:19 PM

169. In the same way that you benefit from the murder of Iraqi children.

Would you find that a bit insulting?

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Response to Marr (Reply #169)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:50 PM

178. No. I thought it was only conservatives who preferred to remain in denial

about the real reason for USian wars.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #178)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:54 PM

222. That war was about controlling oil.

You, as an American, do benefit from your military securing resources all over the world for US interests.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:15 PM

207. Believing that requires supporting a rapist mindset.


Rape and rape culture does not benefit men, as a class, or otherwise, any more than racism benefits whites.

The poisonous, mistaken assumption that bigotry and oppression benefit the oppressors is false, and it is incredibly regressive to suggest otherwise.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #207)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:21 PM

210. Wow. nt

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Response to redqueen (Reply #210)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:04 PM

215. wow is right or more... odd. i do not think i have ever heard it be argued that the oppressor

NEVER benefits from oppressing.

did i read it wrong?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #215)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:39 PM

219. Do either of you have an actual reply?


Your central premise here is false, and there's nothing odd or even subtle about it. It's Enlightened Self Interest 101.

Men don't benefit from a society that marginalizes women, unless you really think women are lesser beings.

Opportunity and safety and justice and dignity are not a cookie that someone has less of in order that someone else can have more.

That's the entire stupidity of the bigoted mindset. Simply turning it around doesn't fix anything.


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Response to DirkGently (Reply #219)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:56 PM

223. yes, there are immediate rewards and the ultimate failure for us all.

i get that.

we talk about it often with the patriarchy. but, in order to get to the point you are at, one has to recognize the set up and why.

i often say that though it looks like a win for one group, it is a loss for all.

action/reaction

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #219)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:08 PM

234. So you're saying white people didn't benefit from apartheid?

That whites didn't benefit from the displacement and oppression of Native Americans?

That slave owners didn't benefit from owning slaves?

That colonialists didn't benefit from exploiting the raw materials and work force of those who are colonists?

If oppression wasn't in some ways beneficial to the oppressors, why would it continue to exist? Racism, rape, slavery, war, domestic violence--it's all one great big misunderstanding?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:54 AM

26. it does benefit all men. and no, i do not mind my boys understanding this concept. i am proud that

my boys understand what is being said, do not take responsibility for it, or feel guilty about it, but they get the concept that is being said. because, it makes them have a greater comprehension of the social constructs we all live with. it allows them to combat those constructs. whether it is domination and control over women, or dictatorial presentation of what masculinity and manhood is that is limiting to them.

it allows them to reject the social conditioning and allows them to define their own masculinity, not what culture and society tell them it is.

it is freeing for them. it is freeing for the girls and women they are around.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:56 AM

29. All men benefitting from something doesn't mean all men want to benefit from it

It means men as a group benefit, whether they want to or not, even if they are horrified by benefitting from something. Just like white people benefitted from lynchings of African Americans in the days where lynching was common. I'm sure many many white people were horrified by it, but they still as a group benefitted, no matter how opposed to it they were. Same thing for slavery - even white people in the north who protested against it, the strongest of abolitionists, benefitted from it. Benefitting doesn't mean supporting or liking.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #29)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:59 AM

30. I never realized when I'm worrying about my daughter when she's out with her friends

that I am "benefiting from rape".

I'm beginning to think that DU might not be the best place for an intelligent discussion of this issue.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:00 AM

31. It isn't the best place for denying the existence of privilege, that's correct

You can as an individual be worried about it, but still be part of a group that benefits from it.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:03 AM

37. you make me sad nye. i do not get why some men are struggling so hard to hold onto something

that so many of us are asking and clearly saying.... do not hold onto. you do not have to. it is wrong. there is no reason.

i do not understand this.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:27 AM

53. I am possibly the least racist person in the world. But I still benefit from racism.


My ex-wife's son who lives with me and is my heir is, however, a mix of Black, White, Apache and Mexican. Am I concerned for his well being in a racist society? Of course. But my concern for him, and the injury I incur as a result of the racism aimed at one I love, does not alter the fact that I also "benefit from racism."

Likewise, "violent rape" "legitimate rape" etc help create a society in which I, as a man, benefit because of the role rape plays in keeping women on an uneven footing with me. It doesn't matter now abhorrent I find rape, how much rape hurts me because of the women I care for, I still also benefit from it.

This is that "intelligent discussion" you wanted. But you are taking it personal instead.


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Response to ieoeja (Reply #53)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:37 AM

62. There's the fallacy. I agree that rape puts women on an uneven footing.

But I do not agree that I "benefit" from that. It's not a zero-sum game; what is bad for women is not automatically a benefit for men. And for men who have women among their loved ones, the fact that rape exists is especially abhorrent.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #62)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:59 AM

70. Maybe it would help to rephrase it.

Men can simultaneously be hurt by it and benefit from it. It's not an either/or scenario.

We could even potentially argue that women are simultaneously hurt and benefit from rape culture. The damage is easy to see, the benefit isn't one we necessarily want, but here's one: because we don't have the same job opportunities, it's assumed that men will take care of us, and will pay the bill if we go out on a date. This is generally true even if, as two individuals, we have the same income.

In both cases there's a continuum of harm vs. benefit and I don't see it as an attack on women to acknowledge that in some ways we've been given less responsibility because we've been restricted from having responsibilities in the first place.

Another example referring back to my post down thread is that women don't get drafted for wars. Again, it's not an attack on women or anything I would get defensive about to say that out loud. I don't think men need to be defensive either about having their benefits spoken out loud. We get that it doesn't mean you personally want rape to exist. We get that if you could, you would eliminate it from the face of the earth.

We also get that there are opportunities that are given to men (journalism jobs, door to door jobs, closing late at night) because those opportunities are considered dangerous to women-who-might-get-raped, and that sets up a whole mindset where women need to be protected on some level but men are self-sufficient. And THAT mindset affects how people perceive men vs. women, which in turn affects how job candidates are seen in any job setting.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #70)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:13 PM

79. excellent. mroe good stuff. i like... lol. you are good. this isnt about them vs us. us vs them

thank you for being so clear.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #70)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:10 PM

101. very good. Insightful analysis.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #70)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:26 PM

110. Personal example...

My husband is out of town and we have a rental property that needs to be shown to potential renters. There's no way I feel comfortable going to show the apartment by myself. I honestly don't like that he does it either but he's always taken care of it. A guy he hires to do odd jobs at the property will show it for us in his absence.

Part of me feels silly that I am perfectly capable of physically doing this task and we are hiring someone to do it. But not silly enough to do it. And not only that, my husband doensn't want me to do it.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #70)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:43 PM

122. Good post, but "it's assumed that men will take care of us,"


That hasn't been my experience.


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Response to raccoon (Reply #122)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:00 PM

135. I've met men and women who hew to that assumption, but avoid them because I know it's unrealistic.

and the dudes are setting themselves up for disappointment.

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Response to raccoon (Reply #122)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:11 PM

140. I might be overstating it

and it might be generational, too.

Definitely paying for dates was a guy thing when I was younger. One male privilege was that dads taught sons how to do car maintenance, how to change tires and change the oil. It was way less common for daughters to be taught those skills. So men save way more money by having the skills to fix or maintain vehicles, and even at a repair shop women are overcharged because it's assumed men might know enough to recognize that they're being scammed.

On the privilege side for women, if we're stuck with car trouble, it's common to assume a guy will bail us out, come change our tire for example. It's a privilege to not have to do it - and also a curse. A pet peeve of mine is when a young woman calls her dad to come change a flat, and instead of showing her how to do it he just does it himself. It's in the category of giving us a fish instead of teaching us to fish, it keeps us dependent on men.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #62)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:20 PM

209. Precisely. Oppression does not benefit the oppressor.


The story about reactions blaming women for rape illustrates that oppression stems from fear of the oppressed group. But it is an ignorant fear.

Men are not in a better position when women are abused or harmed, any more than whites as a whole benefit from racial oppression.

The fact that people react as though was true is a large part of the problem with the whole dynamic.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #209)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:01 AM

237. "Oppression stems from fear of the oppressed group."

Really?

I'll give you an example of oppression--an example of some of the worst oppression in world history, and you please walk me through how your theory of oppression applies.

The infrastructure of modern Belgium was built in large part from the wealth ripped off from "the Belgian Congo" -- now the Democratic Republic of the Congo -- during the century or so that region of Africa was colonized and oppressed by white Belgians.

So, white Belgians sailed two thousand or more miles into central Africa to oppress those people because they were afraid of Africans? And the billions and tens of billions of dollars of mineral and agricultural wealth that was extracted from central Africa by white Europeans, that was all a by-product of oppression caused by "ignorant fear"?

Or weren't the people of central Africa actually oppressed, by your definition?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:24 PM

81. Can you see that all white people benefit from white privelige?

I'm white and I know I benefit, even though I don't want to, I don't approve, I'm horrified and opposed to white privilege and actively fight it.

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Response to duhneece (Reply #81)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:43 PM

221. You don't think you'd benefit more from an equal society?

That's not what the concept of a privileged position means. Equality, in the context of human beings, is not about distributing a cookie in equal pieces.

If that were true, then every intelligent person should become an arch social conservative and start trying to figure out how wrest equality away from every group of which they are not a member.

I thought we were smarter than that here.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #221)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:13 AM

251. Yes, I believe I would benefit from a more just and equal society

But that doesn't mean I ignore the fact that white males are the most privileged group in the world and in our society at this point in time.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:58 PM

132. Might I suggest ...

that it turns on the form of your worry.

If you worry, as I do that something terrible (like rape) will happen to my daughter, whenever is is out of my sight (i.e., control) and I act on that worry by restricting her ambitions and choices, or by creating in her a sense that she is unable to care for herself, or that someone should take care of/protect her, just like dad ...

Then, you may not benefit from the rape culture that brought about your worry; but those men that do not have to compete with your daughter because she is at home with you, certainly benefit. Those men that encounter your daughter, with her sense that she cannot take care of herself, making her dependent on them, certainly benefit. Those men that encounter your daughter who believes that someone is suppose to take care of her, have certainly benefitted.

Understand?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:49 AM

18. Very well said.

That is the part that I think is missing from the white male privilege threads -- or at least from those who react so badly to them. It's not about individual men. It's about society's views of men and women in general. As a white person, I have NO PROBLEM admitting that I benefit from the fact that in general our society is racist against anyone who is not white. DOes that make me feel that I condone racism somehow? No, I certain do not. But that's the reality of the society we live in. When I see discussions about racism do I feel the need to spout off about how I never oppressed anyone due to race? No, because IT'S NOT ABOUT ME PERSONALLY (unless I actually were a racist, then it would be more about me). It's about our culture!

Don't take it personally. See that it needs to change.

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Response to LisaLynne (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:54 AM

28. Exactly. nt

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Response to LisaLynne (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:11 AM

44. +1

Some people refuse to get this concept! It's not that hard, either.

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Response to LisaLynne (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:59 PM

134. +1,000,000 n/t

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:49 AM

20. That's not what the quote says, though.

this is not about you.... honest.


The quote says "all men benefit". That would include Nye Bevan. And me. And Barack Obama.

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #20)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:02 AM

34. every man benefits from the control and domination regardless of how opposed they are to it.

as a white women, i benefit from the oppression of blacks and other minorities, BUT... i totally oppose oppression of minorities adn speak loudly against it. because i recognize that whites have power and dominate minorities.

i am still white. and i still live in this culture. and my application is going to be read over a black persons application in our white society.

i am not doing anything asking that i get precedent over a black person. but, because of racism, i do benefit.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #34)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:20 AM

50. You're contradicting yourself.

Originally, the claim was:

this is not about you.


Now, when you talk about racism and yourself, you say this:

i benefit from the oppression of blacks and other minorities


So you're making it personal with regards to yourself and racism. And that's fine, just be honest about it.

Barack Obama is a male, and therefore Obama benefits from rape. Admit it. What I'm objecting to is the dishonesty of saying that men benefit from rape but then saying you can't make that personal. That's intellectually vapid.

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #50)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:25 AM

52. have you looked at any issue as a whole (macro), seen how it effected you as an individual (micro)

this is not a foreign concept. we do it all the time, in all kinds of ways and very much in the academic world in about all subjects.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #52)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:42 AM

63. Of course.

I do it in my subject all the time: mathematics. We're dealing with universal quantifiers here.

all men benefit from rape


That's a universally quantified statement. For every object x in the universe (that's the macro) under consideration, if x is a man, then x (that's the micro) benefits from rape.

In post #12, you seem to be saying that the quote doesn't apply to Nye Bevan, that the quote deals with the macro, but doesn't necessarily deal with the micro. But that violates what the quote says. It does not say SOME men benefit--it says ALL men benefit. So just like you admitted that you benefit from society's racism, Nye Bevan, Barack Obama, your sons, etc, all benefit from rape.

Keep in mind, I'm not discussing the validity of the quote--I'm just challenging the weasley attempt to pretend that the universally quantified statement doesn't apply universally. If that were true, then the statement would be false.

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #63)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:48 AM

65. read his reply. he is taking it that it means all men condone rape. have ownership of rape.

that is what i am addressing. i flat out say, yes all men benefit.

and if you are going to use insulting adjectives when challenging, then fuck it. i am not dealing with the nasty posters on du with a personal agendas in this discussion.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #65)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:05 PM

72. I did read his reply, and yours too.

I'm trying to wrap my head around these two statements:

i flat out say, yes all men benefit.


and

this is not about you


Those are mutually contradictory statements. If all men (the macro) benefit, then it IS about Nye (the micro). And like you said, that doesn't mean that Nye condones rape anymore than you condone racism. But don't deny that the statement applies at a personal level--it MUST apply, or else it becomes a meaningless statement.

I'm sorry if I sound nasty; it's probably my inner mathematician. You know how angry they can get.

I'll try to calm down with a kitty listening to music.

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #72)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:12 PM

77. It is not about Nye (the micro) being PERSONALLY AT FAULT.

I think that is what seabeyond is saying when she says "this is not about you".

I like the kitty.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #77)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:26 PM

83. Exactly.

Any given man is not at fault. But they still benefit.

The kitty rocks.

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #72)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:13 PM

78. I don't see them as being contradictory

All men benefit, whether you want to or not, or even whether you try to avoid benefitting. It's just how society is made up and affects men as a group.

But it isn't about you - it isn't anything you did or can personally stop. All you can do is become aware that it exists and when someone else in different circumstances is in a different situation, hopefully withhold judgment. Though hopefully people at a progressive website at DU are already withholding judgment and not assuming people in different circumstances are lazy and just don't want to work if they have trouble finding a job (as one example.) There are some places online where you read things where people seem to revel in their privilege. But those are specific people - and this isn't about Nye (? - don't remember username exactly) specifically.

Privilege is just about recognizing different circumstances different groups of people are in so we can be compassionate and not judge people for areas where they are disadvantaged. It is trying to make us understand that if someone lacks advantages due to lack of privilege X (and there are many), the flip side of that is that someone else has an advantage due to having privilege X. I am very lucky in my life. Part of that is because of good choices, but part is also because I grew up in a middle class household and had parents who could pay to send me to college without me having any debt from that. There is serious privilege to that, so when I read that someone is struggling over student loan debt, it would be unfair of me to say, "Well they should live within their means! What were they thinking taking on that debt and then whining about it?" I shouldn't say that when my mommy and daddy paid for me to go to college.

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #72)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:45 PM

159. I think a more accurate interpretation ...

that maybe, Sea is too polite to offer, is "All men benefit from the rape culture" married with "it is not about your FEELINGS about rape culture."

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #159)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:03 PM

164. That's probably true.

Although...politeness in General Discussion? That's so un-DU.

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #164)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:06 PM

205. ha ha. i got sooo fed up with guys asking to put their feelings first that over the course of 2-3

days I replied, "don't give a fuck about your feelings" to about twenty men.
it didn't go over too well, but a lot of jerks put me on ignore, so there's an upside.
But dudes are too used to us be emotionally accommodating, it wears thin!

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #50)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:15 PM

104. Obama benefits the same way all men do. Women are put on unequal footing.

It does't mean any individual likes it or wants that benefit.

What's your beef here? Because you're bogging down the conversation parsing words instead of discussing the premise of the OP.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #104)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:26 PM

109. True, I wasn't discussing the OP.

I was just focusing on the quote that started this subthread. The quote seemed to be saying (as do you) that Obama benefits from rape the same way that all men do. But then seabeyond tried to say that it doesn't apply to Nye Bevan personally, that "this is not about you." But the quote IS of course about him (and me and B. Obama).

I'm not sure why that's bogging down the thread, because every response to me seems to be reaffirming that point: that Nye Bevan (as a man) benefits from rape, even though he abhors it.

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #109)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:31 PM

114. I think it's a mistake women are making trying to assuage Mr Nye because they feel he bears no guilt

but it's all getting off track because he needs his ego stroked in order to even listen to this conversation.
We get kind of used to allowing men to disrupt because they are making it about their own personal feelings. Happens every time.

I think a lot of the problem here is the phrasing "enjoys benefit" when maybe receives a benefit would be more accurate.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #114)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:37 PM

117. or the poster clearly understands what was being said but has a personal beef and is using

that post to derail.

until challenge one too many times.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #117)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:49 PM

125. and that happens too frequently here too.... wanted to share an interesting blog with you

lots of good stuff here, most interesting was some stuff women shared about trying to get their guy friends support in shutting down some very creepy and assaultive behavior. it's kind of amazing to see how difficult it can be to get people on board to combat this shit. It's an eye opener.

http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #125)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:52 PM

128. thanks. it looks really interesting. LOVE all the insight.

oddly, today, i have been given about 7, 8, 9 reads, lol. gonna be busy. and they all look good.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #128)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:56 PM

131. I think you'll love CaptA's voice as I do, some cool memes in there. Great comments too.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #131)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:03 PM

138. i fall in love easily... just sayin'. nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #138)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:09 PM

139. there's some great advice in there, and she moderates enough to remove the vast majority

of disruptive dudes. But sometimes she'll leave a prime example of the assholery out there and totally school them on their way out the door.
It's nice to see a place with great comments and not have to wade through a cesspool of misogyny and self pity to read them.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #125)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:48 PM

212. that was an amazingly good read! thanks!

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Response to bench scientist (Reply #212)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:50 PM

213. glad you liked it! some amazing voices there.... I give her credit for moderating well.

so you don't have to swim in swill to read the great voices.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #213)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:48 AM

239. well thanks for the find

I will definitely add it to my peruse list. I appreciate your and seabeyond's posts. I read so much science lit this days, (grad school) I feel I have fallen behind on my social justice awareness , and I am always looking for good reads.
peace

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:41 PM

121. Ohhhh ...

now you've done it ... you mentioned the PW to try and make a point about the P. Understand, those that don't understand the P; also don't understand WP.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #121)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:48 PM

123. lol

it went so well together, i was rolling my eyes as i typed, knowing what i was getting into.

but but but



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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:47 AM

15. I'm just as confused.

I'm fairly certain that we've already come to the realization that an overwhelming majority of men on Democratic Underground support the OP, myself included...

Why we need to further discuss the unfortunate nature of patriarchy and talk down to the demographic that fully supports the OP is beyond me...

ESPECIALLY when I am being told that I benefit from the rape culture?

No thanks...

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:50 AM

22. Yep- an OP that we can all unite around, then a few posts later we get "all men benefit from rape".

Not "some men", not even "most men". But "all men". So Barack Obama benefits from rape. And Joe Biden. And me. Is this cluelessness, or is this an attempt to start a fight?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #22)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:49 PM

91. Could I posit that it might be an issue of semantics?

I think the word "benefit" is hanging people up.

On one hand, men "benefit" from rape by perhaps getting a better, higher paying job.

But on another, because of the perpetuation of misogyny men also have to worry for the safety of their wives and daughters. That is not something most men would consider a "benefit".

I might even suggest that many (most?) men would give up that "benefit" (higher paying jobs) in return for the peace of mind about the safety of their family that would come with the absolute absence of the fear of rape.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:51 AM

23. is there some sort of limit on how much discussion can be had of such an important topic?

considering some of the posts and threads over the last few months that seem to support and defend that very culture (including recent comments that the steubenville gang-rape was 'blown out of proportion") I think there needs to be a great deal of discussion.

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Response to niyad (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:27 PM

111. I don't get this "i'm personally offended and want to limit discussion" attitude.

and find it an interesting change here that since India/ Stuebenville- the many men who have denied the very existence of rape culture are all but silent. I recall many the OP saying how rapists were lone sociopaths, not raised as well as the good men here, etc etc... and there were NO cultural problems to be addressed.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #111)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:30 PM

218. always makes me wonder what kind of nerve has been struck.

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Response to niyad (Reply #218)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:41 PM

220. i feel like it hits a little close to home. to hard to consider what it would be like w/out the

advantage? I t must be.
A few people go one about poverty is the REAL problem (as if there's ONE problem) and once you remind them that it's babies and single moms that starving most frequently, they run off.
So, I'm guessing they aren't really interested in poverty either.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:13 AM

46. Just because our benefits are subtle doesn't mean they don't exist

For example, we get paid more. Why? There's several reasons, but one of them is we are not supposed to stay home to stay safe.

Now, the solution to that isn't some sort of self-flagellation or other attempt to 'make up for it'. Just being aware that rape is a pervasive problem for women and then acting appropriately about rape will help to fix it.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:51 PM

148. And this is why the word "feminism" is a toxic label that most women run from

They can't really explain how rape benefits all men, can they? It's just a provoking statement based on a fallacious argument.

I'm comforted by the fact that this statement would probably be rejected by 80%+ of men and women in society, and probably would only gain traction with some on DU. I'm sure apes like Limbaugh are happy for the ammunition, which they used in the first place to make feminism an evil word associated with "man hating"

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #148)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:10 PM

151. "They can't really explain how rape benefits all men". except there are a number of examples and

explanations on this thread



thanks for the jab at feminism. your perspective is clear.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #151)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:15 PM

153. You mean like the rental person

Who is forced to hire someone to look at the rental? Like if you call your rental broker, they will always send a man and never a woman. Right. Like a man who doesn't want to visit a bad neighborhood at night might hire security, who could either be a man or a woman.

A load of hilarious nonsense.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:49 AM

19. it might be helpful to read the book before you dismiss her statement.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:02 AM

33. It doesn't apply the way you are thinking

One, it's not meant to be taken personally. But the worry justifies you in telling them they should stay home more, or get home at a certain time or not go to a certain place or not dress a certain way. It gives you therefore some control over them - that's the point. You may be genuinely worried, but others may not be so kind and see the control factor that is there.

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Response to treestar (Reply #33)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:04 AM

38. OK, so I benefit from rape because its existence gives me more control over my daughters.

Yep. Sure. Got it.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:13 AM

47. You're taking it personally

As a personal insult, when it's not. Yes, it does give you the potential control of your wife and daughters. Some men think they should have control over their wives and daughters. That all men should. That's the point, it is not to make you out to be some baddie, in fact, you may be one of the men who does not want that. This is a societal question, and there is no need to take it personally.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:33 PM

115. You're not aware that a lot of families like controlling their daughters? Seriously?

Stop gazing at your own navel, Nye. You're smarter than that.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:51 AM

67. It was poor wording, but accurate.

Women are kept as an underclass through rape by men. The point is, the threat of rape is a method to control womens' behavior, allowing men to be the upperclass.

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Response to Dash87 (Reply #67)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:02 PM

136. Good one

I agree with the quote and was looking through the thread for the a smaller, and concise way of putting it, and you win. Thank you

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Response to Dash87 (Reply #67)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:54 PM

214. Thank you! Very well said!

It amazes me how some people still cannot get this concept through their heads.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:46 AM

64. Well, call me thick, but can you explain to me how

the men in my life who loved me ... or any other decent man who sees rape as a horrible crime, benefited from my experiences? I don't see any sense to that quote at all. It would seem to be just the opposite.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #64)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:50 AM

66. post 56 is very clear on an example. and there are others in this thread that give a clear example.

edit: 61 is another clear example

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #66)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:54 AM

68. No, it's not.

Last edited Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:52 AM - Edit history (1)

I asked a very specific question. If you can't answer it, don't respond for the poster I asked it of.

My father felt, and my brothers probably still feel the sadness and anger from it all ...... saying that 'all men' benefit from rape is surreal.

And btw ..... I think the article is great, my problem is with the quote I replied to. That said, you should give credit for every word of your OP to the person who wrote it. She's well worth following.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #68)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:22 PM

80. your interpretation of what the OP is saying is incorrect. i gave you an example

what they mean all men "benefit". you reject it.

your choice.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #80)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:34 PM

87. Yeah, I reject it it as complete bull*.

My choice.

But then I've always believed in laying blame at the feet of those who deserved it and not broad-brushing entire groups of people who no more 'benefit' from rape as I benefit as an adult because someone molests children.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #87)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:37 PM

88. ah... there is my insightful and kind polly.



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Response to seabeyond (Reply #88)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:40 PM

89. What are you yammering about?

I asked someone (not you) how the men in my life benefited from my experiences with rape. You responded with more of your condescending garbage. And I'm not 'your' anything.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #89)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:48 AM

257. You Mad, Sis?







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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #257)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:49 AM

258. Not in any way, Sis. You mad? nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #258)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:08 AM

260. Nah, I don't shake my fist at the truth



But whatever works for you...






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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #260)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:21 AM

261. Well I don't believe that the quote that all men

benefit from rape, as I've stated. The statement isn't true, so what am I shaking my fist at?

Do you benefit from child abuse committed by others, simply because you're an adult? No-one will answer that. Rape is a horrible, ugly thing as many of us here have found out personally. I don't see the point in ascribing the 'benefits' of it to half the world's population who, imo, are directly or indirectly greatly harmed by the subjugation and cruelty towards women.

Your truth isn't my truth, but what can ya do?

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Response to polly7 (Reply #261)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:49 AM

263. If I compare myself to children of my generation



who were abused to the point of being in a vegetative state, yes, I do have an advantage over those children now that we are all adults. I can still walk and talk and take reasonably decent care of myself. They cannot.

I think what happened to them is horrific and wrong, but I still received a statistical edge in surviving to be independent - from NOT having been abused into a vegetative state.

A benefit doesn't mean they cut all guys a check every month for being a male. It means you have a statistical advantage when it comes to mental health, freedom from harm, ability to move up the ranks, etc.

You can get as angry as you like and try to deny it any way you like, but NOT being as likely to be harmed as would be another class of people is certainly a statistical advantage.








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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #263)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:52 AM

264. I understand what benefits mean, and don't agree that rape of women

gives 'men' as a group any of those things.

I'm not angry, why are you?

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Response to polly7 (Reply #264)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:58 AM

266. lol

You've obviously never seen me angry.

We agree to disagree. Personally, I think you and others are being purposefully obtuse.

That's what I believe.

And I could be as wrong as you are on that one point.

Refusing to see the elephant in the room does not keep the elephant from shitting on your shoes.








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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #266)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:11 PM

267. Nor you me.

And, you're wrong ... which is why assuming rarely works out well.

Ignoring the real beneficiaries of abuse and repression while slinging it off on the shoulders of billions who suffer greatly under the same repressive and abusive systems does exactly 'what'? to help anything? It sure's hell doesn't get rid of that elephant shitting on your shoes. What do you actually suggest should happen if this is true - all men benefit from rape", as I'm assuming there must be some reason for claiming it? Fewer boy babies?

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Response to polly7 (Reply #267)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:20 PM

268. Oy


There are statistically more boy babies born. I had five of them, and one girl.

Some concepts are far too deep for people with fast knee reflexes.

Once again: You benefit from cheap, slave labor done overseas. You benefit from cheap migrant farm labor.

You may abhor those practices, but you most certainly benefit from them. Just as you benefit as a member of a nation with lots of weapons vs. a citizen from Iraq.

In the same way, any social norm that stifles one gender will convey advantage to all members of the non-stifled gender. It's not rocket science. Just plain ol' math.

You don't want to see it, I understand. Have a great day



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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #268)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:34 PM

272. Yeah I know .... it's about as oy as

stating something so simplistic as 'all men benefit from rape' as fact without being able to understand that those 'men' in fact, are just as greatly harmed by it.

I do see, .... you don't want to accept there are opinions other than your own. No biggie, it's just a message board.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #87)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:50 PM

126. Assigning blame and observing benefit are two wholly and separate concepts.

Assigning blame and observing benefit are two wholly and separate concepts.

While I don't blame all American white males for our early slave society, I do however recognize the benefits that slavery allowed that one particular class en toto (see David Davis' wonderful book, 'The Rise and Fall of Slavery in the New World' for clear examples of the benefits slavery allowed an entire demographic-- regardless of whether particular individuals in that demographic owned slaves, or even agreed with slavery).

At the end of the day, artificially repressing an entire demographic results in the artificial enhancement of another demographic.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #126)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:25 PM

143. Do I, as an adult benefit from the scourge of child abuse?

No.

Although with the same reasoning, I should gain more confidence in my adulthood status and power because of it. I don't accept that, either. Some things really don't benefit anyone other than sick-minded individuals, groups of individuals - ie. armies who use rape as a weapon, religious freaks who believe women and children really are lesser individuals to be treated cruelly. Billions of men on this earth don't fit into any of those categories, and gain nothing from the horrors of rape. I think it's offensive and misleading. The power structures harming women and children most are a capitalistic patriarchal system and religion. Address those and the freedoms they give the above-mentioned groups to operate, and we'll be accomplishing something. My opinion.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #66)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:26 PM

84. Post 56 mentions how one small group of men within another small group of people

"benefited" from existence of rape (although I'm sure they'd be extremely reluctant to characterize it as that). That post does absolutely NOTHING to show that all men benefit from rape. That statement remains just as sickening as ever.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:09 PM

74. Wow. I didn't mean to start a war here.

But I still think Brownmiller makes a provocative point.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:57 PM

94. I find it intriguing...

... how it's only women who seem qualified to explain why and how much men experience privilege.

Except to the possible extent that imprisoned rapists don't compete with me for work, I don't experience any benefit from their acts.

In fact, the reverse is true. Men don't become teachers because of the stereotypes applied to them, and boys education suffers because of it.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #94)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:03 PM

137. you've missed quite a few posts from dudes acknowledging this I guess.

why don't you go to Will Pitts thread and argue with him? I think that would be a great opportunity for you.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #137)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:09 PM

180. Been there. Done that.

If I were selling advertising, I'd probably sing a similar tune.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #180)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:20 PM

182. Squashed like a bug, eh? I can see why you'd not want to risk that again.

He's not as kind as most women here, LOL.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #182)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:37 PM

189. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

The fact that one is useful in the marketing of soap does not make it inherently superior.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #189)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:40 PM

191. is that a fight club reference, or are you just scared of taking on a man?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #191)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:32 PM

199. Do you consider men's words more intimidating somehow?

Fwiw, I am no more or less intimidated by Will's ability to make a sound argument than I am yours. Sometimes you hit and sometimes you miss. I am the only one whom I always agree with.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #199)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:45 PM

201. no, but I've noticed a lot of men do, LOL. something of a phenomena! and we agree on this:

I am the only one whom I always agree with.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:10 PM

273. Educate me. (Never mind. Found it in Reply #67)

Last edited Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:50 PM - Edit history (1)

How do I benefit from the fact that some men rape?

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:36 AM

7. k and r--thank you for this excellent post. susan brownmiller said it pretty clearly in her book

"against our will", that rape is a tool the patriarchy uses to keep women under control as long as some men rape, all women can be kept in fear. as a matter of fact, she even hinted at the fact that one of the reasons jack the ripper was never caught was because the very fact of his existence served to keep women in fear. it is a depressing thought that the patriarchy hates women so much that rape is used as a tool for keeping women in fear and under control.

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Response to niyad (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:39 AM

11. brigid, above, quoted her. i had never heard this. very insightful

thanks.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:47 AM

16. "against our will: men, women and rape" by susan brownmiller.

this book was first published in 1975:


"The most comrpehensive study of rape ever offered to the public...It forces readers to take a fresh look at their own attitudes toward this devastating crime."
NEWSWEEK
As powerful and timely now as when it was first published, AGAINST OUR WILL stands as a unique document of the history of politics, the sociology of rape and the inherent and ingrained inequality of men and women under the law. In lucid, persuasive prose, Brownmiller has created a definitive, devastating work of lasting social importance.

http://www.amazon.com/Against-Our-Will-Women-Rape/dp/0449908208/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357659754&sr=1-1&keywords=against+our+will+susan+brownmiller

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Response to niyad (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:58 AM

69. precisely...

because in a court of law, a judge isn't going to tell a man who got mugged or knifed that he should have not left home; that he should have not been in that neighborhood; that he should not have gone out alone; that he should not have worn tight jeans or put his abs on display through a tight t-shirt. However, judges feel quite free to tell a woman who was raped/sexually assaulted that she should not have gone out; that she should not have been walking in that neighborhood or parking in that garage; that she should not be out without her father/brother/husband with her; that she should not have worn what she worn; that as an 82 yr old widowed grandmother, she should have known better than to have previously been kind to the handyman she hired who turned out to be the man who raped and robbed her. THAT is the difference here.

The woman who stops living her full life because of the threat of rape is the result of a patriarchal society which uses rape as a weapon of threat against women who seek to be empowered through themselves alone, not through any male she's born to or married to.

Society needs to first start teaching "Don't rape", not reach for "don't get raped and if you do, you're to blame". No adult can control another adult whose mind is set to undertake a destructive course of action.

See, this is the bullshit that illuminates the issue at hand:
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/304-justice/15388-judge-demands-shredded-vagina-as-proof-of-rape

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Response to SemperEadem (Reply #69)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:21 PM

107. OMFG! HOW is that story not a NATIONAL OUTRAGE? (rhetorical, it is due to rape culture of course)

I feel so sad for every woman who has had to try to get justice for rape or domestic violence in that asshole's court.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #107)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:58 PM

133. because 82 year old women are not sexy enough for the news. fucking sad.

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Response to SemperEadem (Reply #69)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:06 PM

149. Holy crap!

I should stop being surprised by this kind of thing. It's just common. "The body shuts it down" argument again, too. Do they think vaginas are magical or something?

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Response to SemperEadem (Reply #69)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:15 PM

224. So spot on!

Women are not only supposed to be responsible for ourselves but we also have to spend too much time worrying about how what we do affects others. We must constantly question how we dress, how we act, are we being accommodating enough, are we being bitchy...and on and on and on. Certain men can't control themselves so WE have to modify our behavior so as not to set them off. Daughters have to let parents know where they are going and what time they will be home and to call when they get to their destination. While sons are told have fun be home at midnight or whatever. We live in a society that not only teaches us to fear men it subtly uses it to keep us in our place. It is not hating on men or men bashing, it is there in our society because we are a patriarchal society. As so many have said much more eloquently than I, we can't fix what we don't acknowledge.

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Response to werknotgoin2takeit (Reply #224)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:50 PM

274. Thank you for that. I am so tired of having to live the life you have described so eloquently.

And Welcome to DU!

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:37 AM

9. Another thoughtful post!

I completely agree that while I do not think that individual men go out and rape in order to impose some sort of larger, societal control over women in general, that is in the end what their actions achieve. It's very difficult to be equal in a culture of rape.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:44 AM

13. Rape is not about sex, it is about power and control. This needs to be understood in order for any

change to take place.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:47 AM

17. Trash time.

Bub bye.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:49 AM

21. I'm sorry you feel this way because ..

that's NOT what this topic or this OP is about.

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Response to LisaLynne (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:02 AM

35. I'm sorry you..

... think another broadbrush man-bashing thread is needed. I happen to have had more than my fill of them.

Isn't that why the "trash this thread" is there?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #35)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:03 AM

36. Fine trash it.

I was just trying to point out that this isn't bashing men, but I don't think you can hear that.

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Response to LisaLynne (Reply #36)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:19 AM

49. Thanks for your permission.

But then since I'd already done that....

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #35)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:32 AM

58. I missed the man bashing. Can you point it out for me? Because I just don't see it. n/t

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Response to ieoeja (Reply #58)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:34 AM

59. Nope...

... not going down your rabbit hole.

Have a nice day.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #35)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:53 PM

202. you didn't have to click on it and read it...

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:28 PM

154. Privilege in action- assuming we give a fuck about what threads you trash, LOL.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #154)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:56 PM

193. Arrogance in action.

Assuming I give a fuck whether "we" give a fuck about what threads I trash, LOL.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #193)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:58 PM

194. Arrogance is coming in to piss on a conversation and add nothing. Look in the mirror dude.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #193)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:54 PM

203. someone's feeling diminished and argumentative

when all they had to do was pass the thread up...

you came here looking for a fight.

dont' bother with the retort--you're on ignore.

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Response to SemperEadem (Reply #203)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:01 PM

204. Uh huh...

... you are "so" ignoring me you jumped on two of my responses!



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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:54 AM

27. K&R

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:01 AM

32. I don't think the OP made the case it set out to make: that ALL MEN benefit from rape. How? nt

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Response to Romulox (Reply #32)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:06 AM

40. By keeping the unearned priveledge assigned to males.

Just as I, being white, benefit from the racist elements in our society that give me certain advantages due to the color of my skin. I don't want those advantages and would gladly give them up, which is why I do what I can to end racism (which sometimes feels like not very much).

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Response to LisaLynne (Reply #40)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:08 AM

41. I follow the general concept, but I think you need to make the specific connection.

I am not making the final leap. What "unearned privilege" does rape convey upon me?

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Response to Romulox (Reply #41)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:11 AM

43. The OP's premise is that having a culture where women can be made to fear being raped ...

keeps women "in line" or at home, out of the work force, afraid to leave their lives as equals with me. Supposedly, that helps men because they don't have to compete for jobs with women, keeps them afraid so they feel they need male protection, etc. All of that stuff.

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Response to LisaLynne (Reply #43)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:12 AM

45. That's the part I think is hard to follow. Specifically, I don't think the case has been made. nt

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Response to Romulox (Reply #45)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:21 AM

51. What's hard to follow about it?

I have an older sister. Growing up, she had a curfew. I didn't. Part of that difference was my parent's fear of her getting raped. So I gained some significant freedom compared to her by just being male.

I've pleased bosses by working very late to get projects done. When I decide whether or not to stay late, "I might get raped walking to my car" isn't a factor in my decision. But it was for female coworkers who then decided to not stay late. That helped my career and hurt theirs.

What do you find hard to follow?

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:27 AM

54. you are doing a very good job explaining it. thank you. i was asked

would i want to give this to my sons. yes... yes i say. it does not hurt to understand this concept, nor is there any kind of loss. there is a power and freedom in getting these concepts.

thanks for helping to clarify.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:37 AM

61. The parking lot thing affected my education.

I was taking classes at the local community college, and we had an abduction/rape in the parking lot.

When it came time for me to get my masters, the schools that offered the program I needed were in a high crime area and I would have been taking night classes. I didn't want to walk alone at night through the city to my car, so I did an online program.

The program I did (University of Phoenix) is for sure not as prestigious as the local university would have been. But it got the basic job requirements out of the way and I didn't have to worry about being attacked while logging in from home.

My husband got his masters from the university in the city that I'd been considering. We're in different fields, but the issue is that his degree wasn't influenced by the dangers of parking at night, and as a result he has a stronger resume than I have. Men with otherwise identical experiences and accomplishments to mine will have a hiring advantage over me. They won't know or see it. Their view is simply "I was just better qualified, it's nothing to do with gender."

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:04 PM

71. Thank you jeff47 for being so articulate....

and willing to spend time explaining this concept. Your examples are clear and easy to understand.

When I was young, when Brownmiller's book was written, we had some hope that we could make a difference and educate people enough to make some real changes in our culture. Here it is over 40 years later and some men are still refusing to understand how privilege works in any society and how it benefits or hurts them. We had these exact same discussions. The exact same words were used by men to deny that they benefited from white male privilege, the culture of rape and patriarchy because they do not want to face the reality of it. Denial is so much easier.

This is not about bashing men. The discussion is about the culture in which we live. Men, whether they want to admit it or not, benefit from patriarchy, white male privilege and the culture of rape. All of these concepts are about power and control. Understanding that is the first step to change and making a better world for the women and girls in your life.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:32 PM

86. To expand on that thought

Regarding your sisters curfew or your ability to work late without worry several more things.

If you have never felt afraid to go any where alone at night (a concert, a bar, the movies) you benefit from it.

If you never turn on all the lights or jump at any unfamiliar sound when home alone,
you benefit.

If you were never admonished to always use the buddy system or never leave your drink unattended you benefit.

If you felt free to apply or take jobs in certain fields without worrying about assault, discrimination, or harrasment, you benefit.

It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp. These are things that I who have lived with this sort of subtle fear my whole life am only now starting to grasp. It's not any individual mans fault but it is inherent in our culture just the same. Being a man gives you a degree of freedom I've never had. Being a woman makes mundane activities frightening and does dictate the choices I may make. When I graduated from college I was approached by a military recruiter. I decided to go in for testing and was a very high percentile. The recruiter said I would have been perfect for their language program and been trained to be a translator. I decided not to because I was afraid, not of war, this was one of the few times we were not fighting somewhere. It was fear of being seperated from my family and being at the mercy of so many men who could tell me what to do. Men don't have that worry, they feel free to take the opportunities that come their way and mostly it works out. Honestly, the degree of obtuseness of some on this thread is stunning and is yet another example of what is being discussed.

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Response to werknotgoin2takeit (Reply #86)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:12 PM

216. +1000 and Welcome to DU!

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:51 PM

93. You get it. Thanks for that.

Your post brought up the time I needed to stay late at work after Daylight Savings Time ended. It was pitch dark when I left my office, the campus was pretty deserted, and I had to walk a long way to drop off my work at the Admin Bldg. Then another long way to the parking lot. There had been assaults over time (stay in! don't go out!).

Fortunately for my peace of mind the college at that time had a corps of bicycle escorts for these occasions, so I phoned for one and was walked to my car.

Every day of my life from early childhood I was trained to caution, and the messages increased with age. Don't talk to strange men. Don't get in a car with strangers. Go with girlfriends. Be alert for footsteps behind you; cross the street if you hear them. Avoid alleys; walk next to the curb when passing one. If at a bar (go with girlfriends) watch your drink, never set it down. Don't go alone to a man's apartment. Watch what you wear. Lock every door and window. Lock your car doors when driving; lock you car when you park it. Hold your purse close to your body; sling the strap across your chest, never dangle it from your fingers.

The warnings were an undercurrent to my life -- to all our lives as women and girls. I was (we all are) sensitized to news stories about assault and rape. What was she doing "wrong"? Could it have been me? Yes, it could.

When I was about 10 there was a 12-year old girl who disappeared. She got in a car with a stranger. She was raped and strangled. I took this very much to heart -- I don't think it even created a ripple in my brother's consciousness. A couple of decades later I discovered that women in my age group from that area ALL remembered that little girl's name. In our hearts we had all asked: Could it have been me? and heard the answer, Yes, it could. And modified our behavior accordingly.

I am genuinely sorry for the well-intentioned men who are offended by talk of "the patriarchy" and the "culture of rape." It took a long evolution for me to understand it myself, so thoroughly ingrained were the lessons I had been taught.

But I would ask them, were they taught any of this by their parents? Sure, we caution both little boys and little girls, but at a certain point, boys are set free. Both my brothers hitchhiked in their teens, and both have one or two tales to tell, but that didn't stop them -- I would have been insane to have done that.

It goes on for life....

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Response to Hekate (Reply #93)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:30 PM

225. I see that too.

I am a grown woman in my 40s and I decided to use my vacation to drive 2 days there and back to visit some family. I was going to do this alone, I wanted the time to be alone and think. I was asked again and again if this was something I wanted to do, it could be dangerous. I was determined and then the lectures started. Make sure you always lock your door, don't pick up strangers, call at every stop, here's a taser just in case blah blah blah. If this had been my brother no one would even think to treat them like a child and that is what it felt like. I was being infantilized. The things that men do that they take for granted are seen as crazy when women do it. We will only be an equal society when that changes.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:02 PM

95. The argument in the OP is that I, personally, passively benefit from "rape culture".

Your first example doesn't speak to that. Perhaps unfairness, but not a benefit to you based on "rape culture".

The second example is more on point. However, most rapes are committed by people known to the victim, not strangers. Your co-workers were in greater danger from you than from walking to the car.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #95)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:26 PM

144. the recurring mistake is thinking it's always either/ or... the dangerous person in the parking lot

could be a stranger or- even more easily be your boss or underling, or a delivery person that knows your name and what you eat for lunch.
Guess what? if they attacked you and got arrested, they'd all claim the victim flirted and asked for it- and that gambit is likely to help get them an inadequate sentence unless they shred you up good.

You don't help matters by attempting to oversimplify or parse words. In fact, it's basically just pointless disruption.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #95)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:48 PM

146. The point is the actual benefits can be subtle, so they're easy to miss.

The point of the curfew story is that the benefits we males get are not always obvious. It's not like my parents literally said "get home by 11 so you don't get raped". It was just something a young woman was supposed to do for a variety of reasons.

Your co-workers were in greater danger from you than from walking to the car.

Yes, they were.

And I didn't have to worry about that. They did. Thus I could more easily say "sure, I'll get that done for you, Boss!". Which translated into a larger raise for me.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #146)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:33 PM

156. another subtle benefit- you are not going to get any nasty condescending attitude , labeled

a bitch, professional victim or "gaslighted" for posting your experiences here. Note how the men pick nasty little fights with women here, telling them their own experiences didn't happen or are not significant or part of a larger trend.
When guys speak up in support, they ignore it. They pretend it never happens, even on this thread.

Thanks Jeff47, for chiming in.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #156)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:40 PM

158. trying to pull it up without going back to the thread... DAMAGED personalities.

a sweeping women that speak out, have the most damaged personalities.

now. tell me. is that insulting or what.

sigh....



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Response to seabeyond (Reply #158)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:14 PM

168. you're not going to see all this condescending snark aimed at W Pitt... just like there is so little

denial this past two weeks over the existence of rape culture.
After India and Steubenville, they KNOW what assholes they would sound like trying to explain it all away.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #168)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:29 PM

172. you got that right. and yes...

i have noticed over the weekend with stuberville rape

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:19 PM

105. Thanks!

Your explanation is very apt and easy to understand. It's also true about how men in general benefit.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #41)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:39 PM

119. read the responses here again. all the answers you claim to seek are here.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #32)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:28 AM

56. I can think of examples from my life.

I was an intel analyst for a while. At one point we needed someone to do a briefing to a group of special forces guys. It naturally would have fallen to me to handle it - I was someone who flew out regularly to the pentagon to do briefings for generals.

But the boss told me very bluntly he wasn't going to send me because I am female and because of the special forces attitude toward women (we're the sex class, not the colleague class). That attitude's tied to women's role in battle - we're not combat troops, therefore not equal or able to speak from experience about special forces missions. And the reason we aren't allowed as combat troops is tied to the fear we will be captured and raped.

So that briefing job - along with all the networking opportunities or awards with it - became an opportunity that was restricted to men in our office. That doesn't mean anyone in our office supports rape. It doesn't mean anyone in our office did or didn't oppose women in combat. It doesn't even mean that the guy sent to do the briefing was ever aware that he was sent BECAUSE he was male, or that I wasn't allowed to go because I'm female. To him it was a completely invisible (and therefore nonexistent from his perspective) privilege.

Editing to add that ironically, of the staff in the office, except for the boss and one major, I was the only one who had active duty experience, all the rest had only been civilians.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #56)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:31 AM

57. very clear, precise example. thank you for sharing this. and thank you for adding the ironic.

loved it.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #56)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:04 PM

96. You gave the example of combat being an "opportunity"

It's not. The fact that women's safety is held in higher importance relative to their male peers is not a form of male privilege. Not everything that is patriarchal is intended to benefit men.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #96)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:11 PM

102. I think you missed my point.

Combat is not an opportunity I personally want. But the clients were volunteers, not draftees, who tried out for and got into special forces. It's an opportunity they did want, which was only available to men.

Of the civilian employees in my office, none of them wanted to be in combat and they weren't in combat. But the fact that they COULD have been in combat gave them career advantages over me, in that they were able to network, meet, and sell to special forces groups. A successful meeting with those troops would be an accomplishment for the men to list on a performance review and give them an advantage in promotions over me - even though they personally would never be in a combat situation.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #96)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:20 PM

106. she clearly stated it left her at a professional disadvantage. how dare you negate everything she

just said? What total dishonest bullshit.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #106)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:36 PM

188. It is difficult to defend the idea that being sent to a combat zone is a professional advantage. nt

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #188)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:39 PM

190. not really, she stated it quite succinctly. lots of women would LOVE to serve, your feelings

about it don;t really come into play at all, LOL.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #190)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:25 PM

198. thank you

why these men feel so damned diminished by a woman stating her experiences and go well out of their way to negate it shows just how lame their premise was to begin with. Arguing for arguing's sake.

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Response to SemperEadem (Reply #198)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:11 PM

206. wow this resonates with me...as a woman, and a black person

thank you for stating it so clearly.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #190)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:18 PM

208. Don't get me wrong. I support equality, therefore I support women in combat.

Further, anyone who can pass the unified constitutional, physical, ethical and intellectual combat readiness test should be allowed to serve. If that were the case, the special ops troops in question couldn't know by simply looking at the person giving the briefing that it was just another REMF without any relevant field experience.

This relevant field experience, provided she survived it, would give the credibility that reasonable people desire from experts.

The price of not being considered rear echelon personnel is the expectation of exchanging fire; Killing the people you are told to kill before they have the opportunity to do the same to you.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #208)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:25 PM

211. i don't understand why anyone would want to go to combat, but people do, god help them.

FWIW, I'm an atheist who wishes there was more opportunity so kids didn't feel economically compelled to join up.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #56)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:05 PM

97. Our military is a cesspool of racism, sexism, rape, hatred.

It's disgusting, and it DOES have a "rape culture", in both a figurative and literal sense.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:15 AM

48. Women going out more well may increase the risk of rape or any other crime

Which likely is a fact, but the patriarchy sees the problem as the going out and doing things, not as the rapist being the problem. That is where Western society is starting to "get it" and change. Women should be able to go out - they should have the same opportunities as men do (and men can be victimized in some way too, or raped, in fact).

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:28 AM

55. K&R

Carol Gilligan and David A.J. Richards in their important work "The Deepening Darkness: Patriarchy, Resistance and Democracy's Future" pinpoint exactly the thing that is so sadly in evidence in this thread: an erroneous and misplaced idea of "honor" as it relates to men and their view of women in general, and the specific women in their lives.

If we can see patriarchy for all that it implies, we can rid ourselves of it, and emerge into a new era of equality. But first we have to see it as it truly exists. And that includes the societal benefits of patriarchy and rape culture that extend to all men. I would hope that men of good will could look past their own personal senses of wounded honor, and consider what the DU women in this thread are showing them.

I ask the question that Gilligan and Richards pose at the conclusion of their excellent book: What is it, exactly, that is so threatening about equality?


http://www.amazon.com/Deepening-Darkness-Patriarchy-Resistance-Democracys/dp/B007MXFCZQ

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Response to Z_I_Peevey (Reply #55)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:34 AM

60. But first we have to see it as it truly exists.

it is true in all things. must see it first, to be able to address. thank you.

and i think i am going to have to buy that book. thank you for that.

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Response to Z_I_Peevey (Reply #55)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:29 PM

112. Excellent post.

Thank you.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:07 PM

73. Excellent

Excellent, thoughtful, eye-opening article. I wish everyone could read it with an open mind; it's about cultural mindsets, things we generally don't question but that underlie our social interactions nonetheless. This is not an attack on all men, but I think all men and women could benefit from thinking about these ideas.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:24 PM

82. K&R

 

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:31 PM

85. Reading this and the discussion,,,I'm stunned

I'm speechless because the fear factor I have held all my life that kept me from doing many things is so much about what has been disscusssed and I thought it was because I just didn't have the courage, the know how and the will to go out and do it with out someone with me holding my hand to make me feel safe. My x always said I was afraid of success or I would go out there and do it. I knew that wasn't it...exactly but I was to horrified to think about why?

Now that I think about it... it was the rape thing and fear of being over powered and humiliated....because it happened, and from then on you are changed.

I'm very sad now, really because I'm to old to change what has been done to my mind, but can you really undo damage like that anyway? This mind set in our society against women is not going change anytime soon.

So I'm just not going to think about anymore. Thanks for a moment of truth.

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Response to Mockingjay (Reply #85)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:49 PM

90. you... are a glorious human being shining in your own light




truth cannot be if we do not see or hear it. problem cannot be solved if we never get to truth.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #90)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:53 PM

192. Thanks

Love the spiritual pic .....and I agree....we have to face the truth and do something about it for the future.

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Response to Mockingjay (Reply #85)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:30 PM

113. That fear you feel is felt by all women to some degree

Women don't have to be raped to fear being raped. I'm sorry you experienced it. I have too. We're told all the time that we will bring it on ourselves by doing what others think we shouldn't be doing, like walking alone at night, walking to our parked cars at night, wearing something revealing, going to bars, even with our girlfriends. Women who have never been raped live in fear of it too.

It's time for us women to start fighting the rape culture that the OP is talking about. We need to do it if we want to change it. We need to educate everyone about how much fear women are forced to live with. Good men, which are the majority of men will help us change the rape culture when they understand what it has done to our society.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #113)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:00 PM

195. yes, but not all women

Some are just lucky not to attract that kind of attention and some just deal with it and I don't know how they do it....maybe they take it and use it to their advantage... I wasn't able to sell out like that, if you know what I mean? Thanks for your input....and yes change the rape culture and change the world!!!!!

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Response to lunatica (Reply #113)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:37 PM

200. same here

I was almost raped when I was 16. I was able to fight off the attacker, who was a coworker. Thank God I was able to because the way law enforcement and the courts treat rape victims, I most likely would have killed myself rather than put myself through obtaining justice to the crime done against me. I never told my parents--to this day, my mother still doesn't know and I'm 53. What does a naive 16 yr old virgin know about the nature of a rapist? He was a guy I worked with, who was nice to me up until that moment. Nothing in the world prepared me for how his nature changed.

Because of that experience, I made sure to teach my daughter how to "not get raped". She should be able to grow up in a world where stuff like that never happens because all parents of sons teach their sons to not rape--but they don't, obviously. Yes some do--but they aren't the ones who are the problem, now are they?

So how does the fear manifest for me these days? I am always wary getting into an elevator alone with a man I don't know because I don't know if he's going to attack me or not. Clearly, age isn't a factor when elderly women are attacked just like teenage girls. There have been times where I've gotten out or passed one up and called for another elevator rather than get in one already occupied by a man.

A pretty mundane thing, riding in an elevator. At least it should be. I should have as much confidence as the man in there that I wont be a victim of sexual assault, but rapists don't have the word "rapist" tattoo'd on their foreheads. Some of them clean up quite nicely, wear thousand dollar suits and good shoes. Some of them are good with disarming charm. They all don't look like thugs from a project.

And since I will be blamed for getting in the elevator in the first place... or even being out of my home... or wearing high heels and a skirt--and not a short one at that, then I get to reserve the right to tap into my intuition and take measures where I feel I'm safest, because how dare I live an autonomous and fully actualized life outside of either my father's or a husband's home.

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Response to Mockingjay (Reply #85)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:28 PM

184. It's definitely changeable.

All it takes is actually going out and doing it. Start small, with access to support (someone with you, or available by cell to come get you). It'll get easier each time and you'll be able to do more and more.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:11 PM

103. Good food for thought

And a great OP.

Looking at rape through the lens of equality puts a lot in perspective.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:25 PM

108. I've been thinking about how the Female Experience is SO alien to Males:

so often, individuals refuse to even attempt to identify with such a different life-experience.

I'm seeing examples of that closed mind-set here; not all are men.

It is really hard to try and communicate the impact on our lives and how societies uphold assumptions in th ese macro ways..

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:35 PM

116. Tom Ashbrook (On Point) did an hour on this yesterday on NPR

Fury of Rape In India

There were many factors (political and cultural) discussed and between the guests and the callers (most that I heard were from India), it gave a lot of insight into the topic. I could've listened to the female guest, Sonia Faliero, for at least another hour.

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Response to So_Blue (Reply #116)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:40 PM

120. i do appreciate their voice in india.

stand strong....

i like what i am seeing.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:50 PM

127. As usual, the MRA people just don't get it.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #127)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:11 PM

141. MRA members ARE the rapists

If not physically, then at least mentally. They're a very messed up group of people.

They don't want women to have rights because they want to control women. A bunch of extremely hateful people they are - just like a member of any other hate group.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:52 PM

129. K & R

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:53 PM

130. Thank you Sea

This is a great piece. I haven't read the comments yet.


Edit; I just read through them, and outside a couple of derail attempts this has been a civilized thread, Rape culture clarified and enlarged so far through the the discussion. I'm pleasantly surprised.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:44 PM

145. Believe it or not there are women (like me) who never think about rape.

I never think about it unless someone else brings it up. I never do anything differently or avoid doing anything, outside of what a man would do to avoid any generic type of crime.

Apparently from what I see on DU, some women think about this a LOT. I'm here to say not all of us do. Maybe this is a big concern in the third world or war zones, or even in inner cities, but it certainly isn't a constant feature in my life. It wasn't when I was younger either.

And guess what, I'm even a survivor of a couple of pretty awful incidents in the past. And yes, I actually DO forget about that fact -- except when reading DU. And no, constant "awareness" of it and worrying about it wouldn't have prevented it.

I think of it along the same lines as the old saying... "a coward dies a thousand times, a brave person but once". Worse than the fact of it, would be letting it into my life and thoughts on a constant basis. So I choose not to. Nobody is really safe in this world, ever. That isn't reality.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #145)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:47 PM

160. you were raped and choose not to think or talk about it? do you think this is a good thing?

I don't think it's a constant thing for most of us. It;s worse at college. It;s worse in unfamiliar surroundings. For some younger girls I know it is a valid daily concern.
For young people whose families associate with rapists and abusers it is a never ending concern. My psychologist friend used to work with women who had court mandated therapy, most of these women would cover for their partners beating their kids as they allowed it to happen to themselves. They felt it was the price to pay for food on their table. These people are "forgetting about it" as you are.

Is acceptance supposed to be a good thing? I'm not getting your point posting this.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #160)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:30 PM

173. My point is that what the "patriarchy" gets out of this as a benefit

is no more than we allow it to have. It isn't gaining a thing from my behavior, because mine hasn't changed. It doesn't define me, it doesn't limit me, it's simply past. I am indifferent to it as a subject, I don't find it particularly interesting. That is in reply to the pov stated in the OP.

For those who are so confused as you describe, that is a thinking or esteem problem which needs straightening out, but there are lots of versions of that which can center on various causes. There are alcoholic enablers for instance, etc., who justify it by reasons just the same way.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #173)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:42 PM

176. I disagree because, it's only working collectively that will end the benefits of patriarchy...

and silence on it basically doesn't help the collective good.

It may feel better for you as an individual to put it in the past. I agree it can be of no help to an individual to dwell on it.
But it is harmful for all to dismissively suggest "forgetting about it" is of any value to society or indeed, the healthiest way to move forward.

I'm thinking because you wrongly assume it "defines" those who have the courage and interest to talk about it, you hesitate yourself? Anyway, that's a broadbrush you should put down now. We can be passionate about many things without any defining us.
You might be incapable of dealing without "it" defining you, but does't make it true for anyone else.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #176)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:00 PM

179. I think that the concept of patriarchy is out of date

and that the collective good centers around whatever improvements can be made for all of the underclass economically -- both genders, all races. Extreme wealth disparity is the form oppression takes today, vastly more than gender or racial issues.

A super-wealthy woman is at no risk of harm from the patriarchy; on the contrary, as I see it she is part of it.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #179)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:19 PM

181. what does the very exceptional case of a super wealthy woman have to do with the majority? Nothing.

Sorry. The either / or arguments are nonsense. Babies with single Mom's are the biggest demographic living in poverty.

It's BOTH. We can walk and chew gum at the same time, and neither action defines us.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #181)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:23 PM

183. i wonder how we ignore the issue in india with a shrug... blaming and confining women to avoid rape

i wonder how we dismiss a time of adults that were complacent and even particpants in a gang rape of a girl, to bury any actions of justice with a shrug.

interesting that there are no issues here for some.

i really do not understand the dismissal of very real wrongs.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #183)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:30 PM

185. You have no entitlement to expect interest where you think it should be.

I see the lines drawn in this world differently than you do. That's how it is, and that's how it will stay, because I feel my view is just as right as you feel yours is.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #185)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:33 PM

187. we have a world of people that shrug away injustices. i get that. i dont accept it though. i will

just speak louder. because the abuse of others just simply does not allow me to turn my abck and walk away.

i expected nothing from you, so there was no entitled expectation.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #187)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:04 PM

197. you can't put old hands on young shoulders. and with this narrow world view, I'd say that's what we

have here. Young, carefree shoulders. Deeply caring about poverty, but not the single Moms and babies that comprise the majority of those starving world wide. Oooops.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #185)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:01 PM

196. If you are blind to the RL demographics about poverty, it's on you. IF that's truly your thing.

But it's no coincidence how or why those babies are growing up poor. Educate yourself about poverty.

Ha, nice twist with the privilege thing.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #185)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:25 PM

231. Some can't imagine reality being different from what they are willing to accept

When someone demands you accept their viewpoint while rejecting yours outright, it's not hard to see where meaningful discussion breaks down.

The lines that are drawn where you see them actually makes a lot more sense because the same groups that seek to control women also seek to control other minorities and classes. It makes the entire argument of "male privilege" irrelevant to Christian privilege, white privilege, and class privilege. When you identify and address those things, the rest is taken care of.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #183)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:33 PM

186. i understand the tough girl attitude to a large extent, they don't "need" feminism, it does't serve

their immediate needs, so fuck everyone else. Even though I've always been a proud feminist, I never really thought much about other women's lives outside of NYC (where it's easier to be treated as equal in many ways). I think I laughed at anyone who felt insecure because I was independent and proud. I have friends who live this way now.
It took a while to realize the totality or pervasiveness of it, and to see it's not just about me. When you are young, it's all about you.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #179)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:40 AM

254. It might be, but the systems that maintain it are still in place -- courts, police, ALEC, etc.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #145)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:56 PM

162. We must not be living on the same planet. nt

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Response to raccoon (Reply #162)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:26 PM

171. I don't know, even though I fought off a biker rapist at 15, I didn't think about it for another 15

years and after maybe 8-10 very close calls. In my mind they were all isolated incidents, and unrelated to other sexist shit I was harmed by. When I was younger I was too busy to connect the dots, never thought about how many other women this was happening to. You get older, and you hear war stories and you realize how pervasive it is.

Never much considered curtailing my dress or behavior, other than drinking excessively- which was good for other reasons.
But I realized it was always there in countless small ways for all the women I know. And that it is always there and so much worse for others who are in a less powerful socio economic position than I am.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #145)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:26 PM

170. It's not necessarily overt

It's how we live. I don't 'think' about rape all the time either, but that doesn't mean rape culture doesn't exist. I've had two serious rape attempts on my person in the past and I fought them off. One involved a gun. Does that make me 'braver' than a woman who was raped?


Hell no. It makes me luckier.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #170)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:32 PM

175. thank you for saying this EXACTLY this way.

Does that make me 'braver' than a woman who was raped?


Hell no. It makes me luckier.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #170)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:40 PM

227. it is part of the it "can't happen to me syndrome" - a refusal to identify with someone who was

victimized. And it doesn't just happen to people who have never been victimized.
My friend was brutally raped and beaten and she views it too with an odd detachment. She just can't really fault the guy, because what would that make her? A victim? Unthinkable for her.
She couldn't admit to being hurt if you came at her with a flamethrower. It's an odd point of pride.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:09 PM

150. Great post, thank you, sea. Lately I have been exploring

Foucault's concept known as panopticism, how constant surveillance affects human behavior.

It's fascinating, and I'm consciously working on recognizing and breaking free my own personal behaviors that have been instilled in me by authoritarian surveillance of me by others both in the present and during the course of my past life.

Our behavior can be, and is, systematically ordered and controlled through the subtle and unseen forces of surveillance.

The constant threat of rape is very powerful form of surveillance, and control, in our lives as well.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #150)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:14 PM

152. i was going to say... how totally fascinating. and you already did, lol.

i will have to do a little reading on that. sounds interesting. so true what you say. i like to play with thought, with subjects like this. behavior. a favorite.

thanks

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:49 PM

161. I have a somewhat contrary point of view, all men are damaged by rape as well.

While on the surface "all men benefit from rape" via enhanced personal power or freedom aspects, societies; as a whole are damaged being limited to Patriarchal restrictions.

Men being integral parts of these increasingly, archaic, primitive misogynistic societies suffer as well whether it be at the micro level of "macho" risk taking increasing the chances of early death, subliminal intimacy barriers between the sexes or at the macro level increased chances of war being waged.

I would contend the same holds true for "all whites benefiting from racism" while this holds true at some levels, society as a whole is easier to divide and conquer by the cynical power mongers when racism is rampant, thus damaging people of all races within that society.

India as a whole is damaged by it misogynistic attitudes and you can't separate the men from the nation.

I believe at some point in the future, misogyny and racism will go the way of the dinosaurs and the world will be better off for it, including men of all races.

Thanks for the thread, seabeyond



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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #161)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:04 PM

165. and then... you have this. the next step. i LOVE it. thanks. and so very in your face, true.

action/reaction

what we think might benefit us, if it is in disrespect, ultimately, it will never benefit us.

absolutely. i a post above, i was asked if i would want my sons to think this way and it was a resounding.... yes.

not only for insight to what girls and women live, but for their own health and balance. absolutely. i feel an obligation to give this gift to my boys.

thanks.

i have taken note of you in a couple threads talking about this issue. i appreciate where you are coming from and your insight and ability to express. me? my message tends toward the muddled.


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Response to seabeyond (Reply #165)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:11 PM

230. I also think that the early sexualization of girls is part of this too.

Girls are sold little bikinis with padded tops, wear inappropriate sayings across their butts and chests, there is even a lingerie line for elementary school girls. In a non-patriarchal society this would not be tolerated. Little girls are bombarded with the images and ideals that all they are good for is how they look and being too smart is just the worst. We are reduced to being nothing but play things for men. Look at these pictures:

<a href="http://tinypic.com?ref=191ppy" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>

<a href="http://tinypic.com?ref=2a6ji80" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>

<a href="http://tinypic.com?ref=290sdhy" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>

I find this disgusting and is becoming all too normal. Little boys, although they are frequently the target of pedophiles, don't have this blatant sexualization foisted on them at such young ages.

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Response to werknotgoin2takeit (Reply #230)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:25 PM

232. boys are can do. girls are... arent you pretty.

yes. you are starting a WHOLE other conversation. lol

i agree absolutely and there is so much to this. you have to check out our feminists forums... history of feminism, there is a link to a video by a rapper that you gotta see. when a rapper calls it, that says a hell of a lot where our society has gone.

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #161)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:06 PM

166. From a completely global perspective

Everyone in the world is damaged by rape, racism, sexism, heterosexism etc.

It's self perpetuating, a sick culture becomes the norm; which is why discussing it from a global perspective is also important.

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #161)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:30 PM

174. Excellent points.

While these systems of power do confer some privilege to all, their main function is to retain most power for a very few. By offering crumbs to many, the system is maintained by people who otherwise might sooner overthrow those who greatly benefit from heirarchical power structures, much in the same way feudalism is maintained.

Thanks for your post. Very important insight there.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 03:58 PM

163. Gotta run but have to take a minute to kick this! Thanks seabeyond! nt

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:10 PM

167. kr

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:47 PM

177. Excellent OP, and interesting comments.

I am a white woman, over 65. I have no difficulty understanding that a statement "all whites benefit from racism" does not cast blame on any particular person, but rather is a statement that is absolutely true at the macro level, but at the micro (personal) level will vary tremendously. In fact, I would go so far as to say that some who assert they have received NO benefit as a result of being white are not very observant. One can substitute "all men benefit from rape" and say the same. The first time I explained to my husband why I always locked the car doors, and other precautions I took automatically, he was shocked. It was not a world he had been able to see.

I studied engineering in college at a time when less than 0.5% of all engineers were women. I would sometimes be asked if I had encountered any prejudice. It took me years to SEE and admit to myself the obstacles that had been placed in front of me. And yes, my fellow students (all male) could no more see this than I could. I hope that those who continue to be blind to the benefits they have purely as a result of their gender and/or race are able to back away from feeling personally attacked, to more clearly see how they have benefited.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:25 PM

217. ok, guys, I get why you fear me. I am a woman, and I can see right through you.

I see it coming, I see it's limits. I know how to knock you. And I will, you've seen me do it. And it will hurt, I'm good. You'll tell me guys aren't that mean. You never see it coming. You can't. I know that. I was the tomboy. I played with you forever (still do) and I figured you out.

That's my strength. There's more.

I use it to help out, to put the right people ahead, to weigh just exactly how hard to push and project to get the best out of a situation. Most woman do that. Pay attention. We're winning. We're good.

I love you, great fun, guys. Straight to the point, fast and easy. But you rape. Spiritually you rape through misogynist religions. Psychologically you rape through threats. And physically you rape through sex.

You're not advancing your cause. You're losing. Momentary thrills don't win wars, they win battles. You good guys gotta pick up the little ones and point em in a better direction.

The whole 'every man benefits' argument? No. Every man loses. Eventually.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:30 PM

226. Great Article

 

Disturbing as Hell, but still great.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:00 PM

228. Here's where this theory falls apart

Certainly there are people in our society that seek to control women. They aren't hard to find. They are social conservatives. And although that group is mostly controlled by men, within that group is quite a few women who are either supportive or at the very least apathetic. There are also quite a few female voices cheering on that control and some are in positions of power which make it happen. Not only does that group not include me, it doesn't speak for me, nor does it benefit me and I'm far from alone on this. Although social conservatives enjoy broad influence in the GOP, they don't even make up a majority within their own party. They don't even make up a majority of men in the GOP, much less men as a whole. The problem you run into when you use the words, "patriarchy" and "men" interchangeably is inevitably someone points out the obvious error when you start applying that reasoning.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:11 PM

235. As always, Seabeyond, a fantastic

and illuminating post. Great work, and well done.

I've been trying to remember who it was who said, "Rapists are the shock troops of the patriarchy."

It's so good to read your work, especially with all the horror in the news of late.

Best wishes, and happy new year.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #235)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:11 AM

242. "Rapists are the shock troops of the patriarchy."

very on point.

thank you.

and i appreciate your words


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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:33 PM

236. A discussion on Viewpoint on Current,

for those lucky enough to still have it, will repeat in about 30 minutes. Host John Fugelsang and two guests discuss India, Steubenville and rape culture in ways that echo many of the posts here. Enlightening, and encouraging.

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Response to Z_I_Peevey (Reply #236)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:13 AM

243. thank you so much for this info. wish i could watch it.

i appreciate you letting us know, that this is being talked about.

honestly, years ago i just stopped watching the tv. was so tired of all the misogynist sexist garbage. i was getting mad all the time.

now, .... reading is my entertainment.

glad to hear it is being discussed.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:24 AM

238. Citing the Steubenville case.


I'm too tired and up too late to give a complete answer. I will say, though, after viewing details about the rape in Steubenville and how a network actually protects those boys, I have to say I was wrong, there is a rape culture.

However, it isn't everywhere and it's not for the benefit of every rapist. And not all men benefit from it, either. It's not kept in place because all men gain something from it; it's in place because certain people do.

I believe its psychological dynamic is also related to bullying. That's all I have time and energy for now. A bunch of declarations. I'll try to say more in the next few days, but I'm also under deadline.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:53 AM

240. /popcorn

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Response to cecilfirefox (Reply #240)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:08 AM

250. What an odd response.

You wade through 239 posts in a mostly reasonable, informative, and interesting thread to post the popcorn thingie? I think we're making real progress here, yet it looks like you're hoping for a flamefest to erupt. What gives?

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:33 AM

245. Hey Seabee.

Why aren't you a Women's Studies professor?

I think you'd make a very good one.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #245)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:38 AM

247. ah, what the hell....

lol






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Response to seabeyond (Reply #247)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:54 AM

249. Great shot, Seab!

Thanks, and back at ya.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:41 AM

248. k&r

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:18 AM

252. FINALLY. SOMEONE brings up the complicity of men who won't rape but want to maintain power.

This issue was given much attention in the 1970's and died out when the evangelical bashing against feminism got into full swing.

As one famously maligned feminist, Andrea Dworkin, once argued -- from her research on reported and unreported rape data (official and unofficial), and by interviewing hundreds of night life people -- this particular argument: out of the 100 men who run the night, the one rapist who commits the one rape that will keep 99 other women wary, vigilant, and "insecure," as many of the complicit 99 silent men like to refer to women. Dworkin's claim -- and I have always agreed with her -- is that it only takes one rape to create the climate of the threat of violence. That the Hague has declared rape a war crime is an important step by the international community in challenging climates of fear enabled by men's silence.

Of course -- of course! -- women have sexual needs and desires and aggressively go out to satisfy them. But in public spaces, women will trust but verify. Women will stay vigilant. When it comes to men -- family or acquaintances -- most women not conditioned to adapt to male dominance take the position that equality is as equality does. The fact that rape is such a prevalent and criminally unprosecuted male behavior will always place the 99 non-rapist men in the inconvenient position of having to prove their trustworthiness.

Until men seriously make sure that rape gets the same rates of arrest and conviction from male-dominated law enforcement and judicial systems as do other personal crimes, men will be distrusted as seeing women as either pitiful, manipulatable puppets or as a "challenge" to "break." "Ganging up" in discussions, gaslighting and rape are the tools.

e: cleanup for clarity

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Response to ancianita (Reply #252)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:29 AM

253. not to mention the entertainment of rape in our media.

in so many mens movies, the almost always ingredient is rape or some such sexual degradation. so, not only is there the reality, of rapist, but as a gender as whole, their entertainment factor that media constantly and consistently uses to meet their wants is entertainment rape or equivalent....

what does that say to the female community when every male entertainment uses this formula to sell product.

the use of rape goes beyond just actual rape.

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Response to seabeyond (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:47 AM

256. No they don't

 

That woman is some man's daughter, some men's grand daughter, maybe some man's niece, possibly some man's wife or mother. None of those men (as not the attacker) benefit from her rape and the assertion is absurd. A rapist is somebody using force to dominate somebody else, the rapist doesn't (generally) care about the fallout.

Societally, just the emotional and psychological issues that might result from the rape, beyond their personal cost to the woman, are expensive. The definite physical wounds can be much worse.

Most men are not rapists. They don't want to force themselves on anyone. If every rape that was reported in the US in 2010 were committed by a different man, then 1 in 20 would be rapists. However, rapists are serial offenders. Usually one rapist is responsible for multiple rapes, meaning that the 1 in 20 number is probably skewed to a higher percentage than it should be.

What does this mean to a guy that's not a rapist? He gets grouped in with guys that are. It means that the guy who is walking his drunk (female) friend back to her apartment so she can sleep it off gets looked at by others. It means the guy who is actually trying to flirt and being damned awkward (awful) about it gets looked at as a rapist. It means that a guy that had a few beers and wakes up next to a woman who also had a few drinks the night before is assumed to be a rapist. None of it is a benefit to the far larger portion of men.

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #256)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:06 AM

259. I am poor in America

But I still benefit from cheap goods made by slave labor overseas. I personally am not paying slave wages or hurting those workers, but I benefit.

I still benefit from being a white female rather than a Black or Hispanic female. I, personally, hate racism, but i know some employers might pick me because of my whiteness over women of color who may be more skilled than me. I know in some stores, they may be followed or suspected of shopifting more than I will be.

In the same way, if five male students and five female students attend the same school, which of the ten will be more likely to be gang-raped? Since being a victim of a gang-rape can cause one to quit school, perhaps commit suicide, perhaps never be able to care for oneself, who is at greater risk - of the ten students - of losing it all because of a gang rape? Statistically, if the five male students have very insignificant chance of being gang-raped, and the female students have a much higher chance of being gang-raped, the males students will have a better chance at having a decent life than the female students.

THis doesn't mean the male students are rapists or that they condone rape. It merely means they BENEFIT from having a more secure position as far as not being as likely to have their life derailed by gang rape. So, yes, all five male students BENEFIT. The female 'competititon' has much more to overcome than the males do.

Men may not LIKE this, just as I don't like racism, but I don't lie to myself and pretend I have no benefit owing to the color of my skin.



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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #259)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:41 AM

262. How likely is a gang rape?

 

No statistics exist indicating the prevalence of gang rape in the United States (that I can find). However if a woman has a .027% (27.3/100000) chance of becoming a forcible rape victim, then logically the chances that she will become the victim of a gang rape is at least one order of magnitude less. (i.e. .0027% or less, or a 1 in 37037 chanceor less)

It's a bump, not a mountain.

As far as skin color, dress makes a lot of difference too. A black man walking into a store wearing a suit and tie probably doesn't get followed. The white man that walked in with a hiker's backpack wearing a T-shirt and shorts, a three day growth of beard probably gets followed.

Most employers I have worked with could care less if someone is green, has antennas, and three eyes so long as they can get the work done and are easy to work with. That may just be my experience, but I have a rather specific work history in that regard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

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Response to loose wheel (Reply #262)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:55 AM

265. How likely is it that a woman will become president?


We can use rape by one rapist as an example then, which averages out to one in five women, one in ten men.

Women are twice as likely to be raped as men, which means men are less likely to commit suicide, have PTSD, live in fear, shame and be unable to function - all symptoms and reactions to rape whether one is male or female.

This is statistical advantage. That gives men an edge in surviving and thriving into old age.

Your personal anecdotes are just that.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #265)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:21 PM

269. if a man stays out of prison, chance of rape is significantly reduced.

and once a man has hit a certain age, again, chance is significantly reduced.

i read 1 in 71 men are raped. i do not know where 1 in 10 comes from.

then there is always the unreported for both.

1 in 5 women vs. 1 in 71 men raped in US:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13239341540A18020100&page=0

http://www.google.com/webhp?source=search_app#hl=en&safe=active&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=1+in+71+men+raped&oq=1+in+71+men+raped&gs_l=hp.12...1650.12232.0.14493.21.18.3.0.0.0.215.1300.16j1j1.18.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.voKphWf5jz0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1357316858,d.b2I&fp=9a35894ca65dc185&biw=1600&bih=775

i am being really lazy on giving data. have done it so often only for it to be a waste of time.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #269)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:24 PM

270. I think that was a child abuse figure

Not sure where I read that, but one study claimed close to one in ten males.

So the statistics are even more damning than I thought.

Great thread Sea.

Gotta get chores done but thanks for correcting me on the stats.


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #265)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:32 PM

271. As history continues...

 

Given that the United States will continue as a country, the likelihood approaches 1. There will be a woman who becomes president, that person is likely already alive. In the entire history of the United States, only 44 men have ever been President.

You say men are more likely to survive into old age, yet women stastically live longer than men. More women attempt suicide than men, yet men are far more likely to succeed.

Yes the spiritual (however one believes or doesn't) and mental damage needs to be addressed, moreso than the physical. PTSD is a manageable condition, with help. Depression is manageable, with help. Those two together are nasty, because they can feed on each other and make life hell. I know. I've been there and done that. Making pretend that it didn't happen, feeling ashamed, feeling afraid, being unable to live is the worst, a living death.

All that said, there are services available, but a person, any person, must be in a position to want help and want to heal. Any therapist worth their salt will say that. There has to come a moment where a person says what happened (and this applies in all cases) wasn't my fault, I am suffering from it, I want to heal, I will need help.

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