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Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:08 AM

 

Telling people being obese isn't unhealthy--not productive

I think we should all celebrate our diverse shapes and sizes. Our society should stop creating unrealistic images of what is a "good" figure.

Having said that, FAT kills. If someone is more than 20 lbs overweight for many years, it will have a negative effect on their health.
Obesity is more of a symptom than a disease. The underlying causes of obesity vary for each individual, but we must continue to promote healthy lifestyle of diets with more plants and less animal products, more frequent and longer duration of exercise and physical activity, and good emotional health.

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Reply Telling people being obese isn't unhealthy--not productive (Original post)
Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2013 OP
BainsBane Jan 2013 #1
ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #2
Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2013 #3
eridani Jan 2013 #4
Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2013 #5
eridani Jan 2013 #7
notadmblnd Jan 2013 #35
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #51
notadmblnd Jan 2013 #67
Viva_La_Revolution Jan 2013 #65
notadmblnd Jan 2013 #66
adigal Jan 2013 #54
Confusious Jan 2013 #6
eridani Jan 2013 #8
Confusious Jan 2013 #9
eridani Jan 2013 #10
Confusious Jan 2013 #12
eridani Jan 2013 #13
Confusious Jan 2013 #14
eridani Jan 2013 #17
Confusious Jan 2013 #32
eridani Jan 2013 #68
Confusious Jan 2013 #76
eridani Jan 2013 #81
Confusious Jan 2013 #82
eridani Jan 2013 #85
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #21
Confusious Jan 2013 #27
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #31
Confusious Jan 2013 #34
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #37
adigal Jan 2013 #62
eridani Jan 2013 #69
Confusious Jan 2013 #74
eridani Jan 2013 #80
Confusious Jan 2013 #83
eridani Jan 2013 #86
Confusious Jan 2013 #73
duffyduff Jan 2013 #60
duffyduff Jan 2013 #58
Confusious Jan 2013 #72
duffyduff Jan 2013 #57
Confusious Jan 2013 #71
Aerows Jan 2013 #43
tridim Jan 2013 #64
Aerows Jan 2013 #70
Confusious Jan 2013 #75
duffyduff Jan 2013 #55
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #59
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #15
Iris Jan 2013 #40
reformist2 Jan 2013 #20
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #22
reformist2 Jan 2013 #24
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #25
reformist2 Jan 2013 #28
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #33
aaaaaa5a Jan 2013 #36
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #84
eridani Jan 2013 #11
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #48
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #16
Kalidurga Jan 2013 #18
eridani Jan 2013 #19
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #53
redqueen Jan 2013 #61
customerserviceguy Jan 2013 #26
Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2013 #41
customerserviceguy Jan 2013 #77
Iris Jan 2013 #39
get the red out Jan 2013 #23
lunatica Jan 2013 #29
gollygee Jan 2013 #30
Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2013 #42
Iris Jan 2013 #38
Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2013 #45
Iris Jan 2013 #87
Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2013 #88
AnnaLee Jan 2013 #44
Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2013 #46
jeff47 Jan 2013 #50
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #47
Scout Jan 2013 #79
musical_soul Jan 2013 #49
duffyduff Jan 2013 #52
treestar Jan 2013 #56
liberal_at_heart Jan 2013 #63
customerserviceguy Jan 2013 #78

Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:22 AM

1. true

It's not like those of us who are fat don't know it's not good for us. Unrealistic cultural standards actually make it psychologically more difficult to lose weight because the image seems so foreign and unreachable.

I very much agree obesity is a symptom rather than a cause of an underlying problem, generally a combination of physical and psychological factors.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:35 AM

2. How do you feel about the recent study that says overweight people live longer? nt

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:54 AM

3. I think it should be taken with a pound of salt

 

This NPR article quotes some of the researchers and physicians who question the validity of this particular study.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/01/02/168437030/research-a-little-extra-fat-may-help-you-live-longer

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:07 AM

4. Sure--people who make big bux from the weight loss industry don't approve

So what else is new? The Flegel study did not recommend that people gain weight just because there is a statistical association between higher BMI and greater longevity, because they know that correlation is not causation. Guess what? That works the other way as well.

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Response to eridani (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:14 AM

5. Please read my article. I read yours.

 

There is no question that merely basing a study on BMI and death rates is not very helpful.

There is also no dissent on the fact that morbidly obese people suffer far more chronic health problems and have shorter life expectancy.

This study, in my mind, muddies the waters and could cause very overweight people with acute health risks to take no action to reduce their weight.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:25 AM

7. The statistical effect even there is quite small

And the moderately overweight are still at a statistical advantage. Higher BMI correlates with lower death rates (up to a point), period. And the authors are quite emphatic about not confusing correlation with causation, something that the weight loss pushers should try doing sometime.

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Response to eridani (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:51 AM

35. I used to tell my husband who was 6 ft 145 lbs

that if he got sick, he would be gone in an instant and that I on the other had being 5'4 and hovering around 200 lbs, would linger and waste away slowly. It was sort of a running joke between us until one night we went to be and one of us didn't wake up. it's been more than 10 years now. I still miss him.

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #35)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:11 AM

51. I'm so sorry

The truth is nobody knows when or how they are going to die. I think instead of obsessing over how and when I'm going to die I would rather enjoy my life while I'm here. I think Michael Moore was right. We live in a fear based society. We love to scare ourselves and others. I think it would be much better if we spent our time loving each other while we're here.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #51)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:47 PM

67. One of the things he told me when he found out he needed a new heart

was that if he was going to die, he was going to die living. He said he couldn't just sit in a chair and wait for death to come.

Me, I'm grateful that we had the time together and for the wonderful son he gave me. And even though I have a ways to go, knowing him has made me a better person.

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #35)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:55 AM

65. I'm so sorry for your loss, notadmblnd



I have the same running joke with my skinny friend. I say she will starve quicker than me when civilization collapses, she says I will get eaten by the zombies first cause I'm more tender and juicy.

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Response to Viva_La_Revolution (Reply #65)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:39 PM

66. Lol. that is funny

thanks or our kind words.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:21 AM

54. You are misrepresenting the study

It says that being overweight, not obese, and active is healthier than thin and not active.

Please fix how you represented the study.

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Response to eridani (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:24 AM

6. And the fast food makers approve of the study

I've matched your "evil corporation," with one more evil.

Most people would say the fast food makers are more evil so I win.

Bullshit argument all around.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:26 AM

8. Guess what? People who aren't fat eat fast food too n/t

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Response to eridani (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:29 AM

9. Sorry, This is about your "weight loss industry" bullshit argument, nothing else. nt

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Response to Confusious (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:35 AM

10. They get billions yearly producing no significant results

This is something to cheer about?

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Response to eridani (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:49 AM

12. And fast food kills people every year

Would you like to address that?

You're just avoiding arguments you don't like.

We all have our particular burden to bear in this life, mine is cholesterol. I don't go to fast food joints because I would like to avoid open heart surgery later in life(which my grandfather and uncle had, my father avoided, barely). If you got weight problems, don't go, it makes you fat. And being fat gives you all sorts of health problems later in life.

Thousands of studies have shown that, and you find one that agrees with you (and has flaws!) and it's the second fucking coming.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:58 AM

13. The metastudy happened to be a summary of about 100 different studies

--covering more than three million people.

Fast food is irrelevant. Many people of all weights eat it, and many people of all weights avoid it. And so what?

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Response to eridani (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:06 AM

14. Like I said, to you it's the second coming

No matter how flawed.

Harvard, obesity study flawed:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/nutrition-news/obesity-study/

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-nejm-obesity-study-relies-on-flawed-body-mass-index-56221297.html

There's a obesity problem in this country, and fast food it part of the problem. Of course to you it's irrelevant.

but the HORRID "WEIGHT LOSS INDUSTRY" must be EXCISED!!!!

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Response to Confusious (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:16 AM

17. There is no obesity problem

There is an overworked and underpaid problem, a lack of walkable cities problem, a subsidies for the wrong kind of food problem, and a food desert problem. Solving those problems, unlike publicly abusing fat people, requires social and political action.

People of all weights eat fast food. The critics of the study are bullshit artists. The authors caution that correlation is not causation, and specifically do NOT recomment that people try to gain weight just because of a statistical correlation between higher BMI and longevity. The shuck and jive artists, on the other hand, use any statistical correlation they can find to advocate weight loss. Understandably, they don't like being reminded that correlation isn't causation in the other direction either.

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Response to eridani (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:37 AM

32. You're playing word games

There is an obesity problem.

Your examples are possible causes of the problem. Cause and effect are not the same thing.

lot of the things you put down are also personal choice. You make the choice not to things that are good for your health, and being obese is one of them. For a select few, there are other options.

But being obese is not good for your health, and maybe being overweight is not good for your health. My stepmother was overweight and died at 55.

Most of america is getting fatter, and that's a problem. I worked in a movie theater built in the 30's. a lot people today would have to use the couples seats to fit in there, because they're getting fatter. Older stadiums are torn down and fewer seats put in because peoples asses are fatter. The military is having to do remedial weight loss on recruits because they're fat.

The authors caution that correlation is not causation, and specifically do NOT recomment that people try to gain weight just because of a statistical correlation between higher BMI and longevity.


They say that because of the criticisms of the BMI that that they used. They knew it was Bullshit, and they used it anyways.

Being fat, obese, is not good for your health.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #32)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:12 PM

68. Sure it is, at least in some respects

Hip fracture is a major cause of mortality in older women, and fat women are far less likely to have that happen.

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Response to eridani (Reply #68)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:48 PM

76. That all depends if "fat women" get to an age where that can happen

Got any studies on that? Any proof? I'm kind of tired of your assertions.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #76)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:10 PM

81. Odd, but you are the one who simply blathers nonsense about obesity without references


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100128091740.htm
Adults aged over 70 years who are classified as overweight are less likely to die over a ten year period than adults who are in the 'normal' weight range, according to a new study published in the Journal of The American Geriatrics Society.


http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.aspx?Id=1380
While obesity is a health risk for many diseases such as osteoarthritis and uterine cancer, being overweight does confer some protection against osteoporosis in postmenopausal women. This is because the fat cells produce estrone, a type of estrogen, through conversion of the adrenal hormone androstenedione. This type of estrogen does provide some support for the bones once the ovarian source of estrogen has dwindled.

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Response to eridani (Reply #81)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:48 PM

82. fat women are far less likely to have that happen.

being overweight does confer some protection against osteoporosis in postmenopausal women.

Lets see, 'far less likely' and 'some.' not the same.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #82)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 02:18 AM

85. Far less likely means that at a plump age 66, I have the bone density of a healthy 26 year old

I've very happy about that.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:42 AM

21. First, you're confusing two studies. Your first link is about an earlier study that came to similar

 

conclusions in 2005. Despite the critics' claims about its flaws, you can see that it addresses age & illness and that it's longitudinal -- NHANES is a survey done at regular intervals, the largest of its type for the measures it studies, so you can follow people over time -- in this case, the 70s through the 90s & the 80s through 2000. So it's immaterial that most of the deaths were of people in their 70s or older, because most weren't in their 70s when the survey began.

You'll also note that the researchers made adjustments for confounding factors & age.

We estimated relative risks of mortality associated with different levels of BMI (calculated as weight in kilograms divided by the square of height in meters) from the nationally representative National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES) I (1971-1975) and NHANES II (1976-1980), with follow-up through 1992, and from NHANES III (1988-1994), with follow-up through 2000.

These relative risks were applied to the distribution of BMI and other covariates from NHANES 1999-2002 to estimate attributable fractions and number of excess deaths, adjusted for confounding factors and for effect modification by age.

RESULTS:

Relative to the normal weight category (BMI 18.5 to <25), obesity (BMI > or =30) was associated with 111,909 excess deaths (95% confidence interval , 53,754-170,064) and underweight with 33,746 excess deaths (95% CI, 15,726-51,766). Overweight was not associated with excess mortality (-86,094 deaths; 95% CI, -161,223 to -10,966). The relative risks of mortality associated with obesity were lower in NHANES II and NHANES III than in NHANES I.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15840860?dopt=Abstract


The second link is to an article about the more recent study in the New England journal of medicine. The main criticism in this article is that the study "relies on the highly controversial Body-Mass Index (BMI) -- a simple measure of height and weight. But this week, two major medical journals published articles advocating against the use of the BMI to calculate mortality risk."

This is an absolutely idiotic & ignorant criticism because 'obesity' is *defined clinically* as BMI >30. You can't run a study of obesity without using BMI, because it's the measure used to define what 'obesity' is. If you want to compare 'obese' people to 'normal weight' people, you have to use BMI, because that's the standard.

I have little doubt that the articles criticizing BMI published in 'two major medical journals this week' were published in response to this study specifically.

BMI doesn't capture every detail about a person's weight in relation to their height, and no one ever claimed it did. It's not a perfect measure -- but it's the clinical standard. Furthermore, it's the measurement used in nearly every study where weight has been found to be 'unhealthy' through association with diabetes and other diseases.

Funny that in those studies no one questioned the use of BMI.


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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:20 AM

27. You are correct, I did screw up the two

It was kind of hard to tell them apart, they looked the same.

After some further research, it seems there is a lot of criticism of the BMI being the standard, because it really doesn't say shit (my summation of the arguments) and that is the reason a lot of people are criticizing the study.

BMI doesn't capture every detail about a person's weight in relation to their height, and no one ever claimed it did. It's not a perfect measure -- but it's the clinical standard.


Even if it is the standard, it's suppose to be science, and when you know something is crap and gives wrong answers, you don't keep using it, even if there's nothing else available. That also seems to be part of the criticism.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #27)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:35 AM

31. yes, there's a lot of criticism -- about the same amount that the earlier height/weight tables got.

 

but so far nobody's been able to design a better measure. there isn't one, given the constraints of time and money.

bmi does 'say shit,' it just doesn't say *everything*. no measure does.

BMI is the measure used in every study that says being overweight or obese is unhealthy. I wonder why you, & the critics you cite, didn't criticize it when used in those studies, or criticize the results of those studies because they used BMI.


it's easy to get confused, because that particular research group has done a lot of studies, and a lot of big studies, using different information bases. the results don't mirror each other exactly but they all point in the same general direction.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:48 AM

34. I didn't cite it out of ignorance

My stepmother died at 55, she was "overweight." My mom has type II diabetes, she's "overweight" (it developed later in life, as she was overweight) People I know who aren't, don't have those problems, though they have others. Fast food and cholesterol as one example. Roll of the DNA dice.

Anecdotes aren't evidence, but in my experience, that's how it runs. Why didn't they mention BMI being crap? It seems only recently have health organizations started to say it's crap and push for change.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2009/07/beyond_bmi.html

It's science, things change. We find a way of doing things, then we find a better way.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #34)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:21 AM

37. because bmi *isn't* "crap". If you are doing a study about weight, BMI is what you use. It's

 

what most studies since the 80s have used. BMI was then the 'new thing,' supposedly better than height-weight charts.

The alternatives (like immersion tanks to measure body fat %) are very expensive, time-consuming (thus expensive), and the additional info they give doesn't justify the cost. Large scale studies would be prohibitive.

"Obesity" is defined as BMI over 30 and adequately matches what most people would consider normal, overweight, obese for most subjects. Some subjects fall outside that bell curve -- as expected, & as is the case for most things.

BMI is a red herring. People are criticizing the use of BMI because they don't like the results. They didn't criticize it in studies that had different results.

You'd probably be shocked if you knew the details of the studies on which nutrient requirements are based.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #34)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:28 AM

62. How do you know your stepmother died of "overweight"?

Just because she was overweight and died at 55 does NOT mean she died from being overweight. The diabetes issue, however, is accurate. Being overweight does cause diabetes, but perhaps there are some issues created by being underweight. And how overweight does one have to be to generally become diabetic? If it is obese rather than just overweight, then the study doesn't even apply.

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Response to adigal (Reply #62)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:18 PM

69. Being overweight does not cause diabetes. Genetic insulin resistance causes overweight

--and also diabetes. In point of fact, fat Type II diabetics live much longer than those of average weight. Among the genetically diabetic Pima, the women who live the longest weigh fully twice actuarial "ideal" weight.

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Response to eridani (Reply #69)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:26 PM

74. Really? got a link to a study

showing that the same gene causes a person to be overweight and have diabetes?

What about people who are thin and have diabetes? that kind of kills your assertion.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #74)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:57 PM

80. Thin people mostly have Type I diabetes--being thin is one of its side effects.

Type IIs are mostly fat because of the high insulin levels resulting from insulin resistance. A smaller subset are people who are insulin resistant, but are unable to compensate by making extra insulin. This leaves them at normal weights, but with terrible blood sugar control. I am astonished that articles describing this "obesity paradox" regard it as in any way surprising. It sure isn't surprising to anyone who has a clue about the genetic basis of Type II diabetes. High insulin leves aren't good for you,l but they beat the hell out of uncontrolled blood sugars.

Here are a bunch of references.

Fat type II diabetics less insulin-dependent, less likely to develop the complications of diabetes, and less likely to die from it than type II diabetics of average weight?

Diabetic Pima Indian women (the human population with the largest known genetic concentration of insulin resistance) experience the lowest levels of mortality when they weigh twice the actuarial ideal. Pettitt, D.J., et al Am. J. Epidemiol. Vol 115, p. 359-366 (1982)] (Pima men with the longest life spans weigh 45% more.)

Weight cycling is more strongly correlated with Type II diabetes that staying at a stable, fat weight. (Lee, IM and Paffenbarger, RS, JAMA 1992, vol 268, p 2045-49; Blair, SN, and Paffenbarger, RS, 1994,
34th annual Conference on Cardiovascular Disease Epidemiology and Prevention; Holbrook, TL et al, 1989, Int. J. Obesity, Vol 13, 723-79.) J. Epidemiol. Vol 115, p. 359-366 (1982)] (Pima men with the longest life spans weigh 45% more.)

Fat people who eat the least are the very people who have abnormal insulin response. Comparing two groups of fat people, one of which ate less than 1500 calories a day, and the other of which ate more than 3000, it was found that very one of the former group had abnormal insulin response, and none of the latter group. The people who are most at risk genetically for developing type II diabetes are therefore those who are least likely to lose weight, and the most likely to benefit from more exercise and improvements in diet composition. This means that emphasis on promoting weight loss as the first and most important consideration is perverse, nasty and destructive.
Astrup et al International Journal of Obesity Vol 11, p 51-66 (1987)


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/18/health/research/more-data-suggests-fitness-matters-more-than-weight.html

In research conducted to answer that question, Dr. Carnethon discovered something even more puzzling: Diabetes patients of normal weight are twice as likely to die as those who are overweight or obese. That finding makes diabetes the latest example of a medical phenomenon that mystifies scientists. They call it the obesity paradox.

In study after study, overweight and moderately obese patients with certain chronic diseases often live longer and fare better than normal-weight patients with the same ailments. The accumulation of evidence is inspiring some experts to re-examine long-held assumptions about the association between body fat and disease.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/20/health/in-study-weight-loss-did-not-prevent-heart-attacks-in-diabetics.html

A large federal study of whether diet and weight loss can prevent heart attacks and strokes in overweight and obese people with Type 2 diabetes has ended two years ahead of schedule because the intensive program did not help.

“I was surprised,” said Rena Wing, the study’s chairwoman and a professor of psychiatry and human behavior at Brown University’s medical school.

Like many, she had assumed diet and exercise would help, in part because short-term studies had found that those strategies lowered blood sugar levels, blood pressure and cholesterol levels.

But, Dr. Wing added, “You do a study because you don’t know the answer.”

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20120105p2a00m0na006000c.html (This is only in Japanese now). Another summary article is http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130107100101.htm

Team of Japanese scientists discovers insulin-resistant protein
A team of Japanese scientists has identified an insulin-resistant protein that could be a major cause of obesity and diabetes, a discovery that could help medical practitioners diagnose and treat lifestyle diseases.

The finding was released through the online version of the U.S. science magazine Cell Metabolism on Jan. 4. The state of insulin resistance is widely seen in people who are suffering from type 2 diabetes caused mainly by lifestyle related factors such as overeating, inadequate exercise and obesity.

Using a method called "comparative proteomic analysis," the team of scientists from Kobe University, Shimadzu Corp. and other groups found the insulin-resistant protein in mice after conducting detailed analysis of various kinds of protein. The analysis showed that the levels of the insulin-resistant protein in the blood of obese mice were twice to three times higher than normal. When the protein was injected into other mice, those mice that were not obese became resistant to insulin.

Moreover, those mice that were made incapable of producing the protein did not become obese even when they were fed fatty foods and showed no resistance to insulin. The same protein exists in humans and it is known to be effective in treating inflammation and injuries...

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Response to eridani (Reply #80)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:00 PM

83. Well thanks for all the info, but that's not what was asked

you stated:

Genetic insulin resistance causes overweight -- and also diabetes


I asked for a link to a study for that assertion.

People become overweight and if so predisposed, develop type II. They don't become overweight because they're type II.

People have lost weight and their type II has gone into remission.

There are thin people with type II.

http://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/type-2-diabetes

http://chriskresser.com/think-skinny-people-dont-get-type-2-diabetes-think-again

And there are also your links which showed that there are normal weight type II's.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #83)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 02:27 AM

86. And you got the link demonstrating that a single protein determines whether you get Type II or not

Read it.

And the links also show that the normal weight type IIs are 3 times as likely to die as the fatties. Type II is about insulin resistance. Most Type IIs compensate for that by secreting large amounts of insulin, which also causes weight gain. The unfortunate normal weight type IIs are those people who cannot manufacture enough insulin to compensate for insulin resistance. No extra insulin means no weight gain, but also totally whacked out blood sugars. That's why the far higher death rate.

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Response to adigal (Reply #62)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:22 PM

73. Because her mother is 95 and still alive

and her father lived to 90. and her grandmother lived to 105.

and pretty much every other family member is thin and reaching their 90's.

Genetic fluke? I don't believe in a fluke that large. Might as well be selling me alternative healing.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:26 AM

60. Paul Campos has written a lot about this issue

He's really good at debunking all of the lies peddled by the health food industry, the weight-loss industry, and the media.

Remember, at bottom this "obesity" hysteria is aimed at women for the most part.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:24 AM

58. Prove that "fat" people gorge themselves on fast food--you can't, that's why

There is NO evidence it "kills." People don't eat a steady diet of one kind of food. That's the problem with health food quackery in a nutshell.

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #58)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:12 PM

72. More straw men

I never said "fat people gorge themselves on fast food." dishonest argument.

There is plenty of evidence fast food kills, you just choose to ignore it.

And I won't link to any, because you've made i plain that you won't listen to any argument besides your own voice.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:23 AM

57. It's isn't bullshit, but medical quackery is being spewed here

All that back-to-nature Ewell Gibbons/Adele Davis bullshit that's been around for ages.

Eating this food or that food will not make you healthier or make you live longer.

Time to throw Prevention magazine and Vegetarian Times into the garbage can.

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #57)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:10 PM

71. Sorry, it is a bullshit argument

and I'm not a vegetarian, nor am I overweight.

Eating this food or that food will not make you healthier or make you live longer.


Not eating a food will make your healthier and live longer, and fast food is one of those. Now you can argue that, and you will, but I'll listen to my doctor over a talking 'duffyduff' on the internet any day.

You seem to like the straw. Leave it to the horses.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:15 AM

43. I love Big Macs

and Taco Bell. I've never had a weight problem except being underweight. But... I also don't drink soft drinks. My sister, her husband and her two adopted children all have weight problems. They drink soft drinks by the bucket full.

It's not just "fast food". It's what you have along with your "fast food". Note, I'm not a fan of french fries, either so that's probably why I can chow down on the Big Macs without concern.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #43)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:29 AM

64. I maintained 5'-11" 150lbs for about 25 years, drank about 6 Dr. Pepper's per day.

And ate horrible fast food almost every day. I just never ate over 2400 calories total per day for that entire time. That's why I never gained weight.

About 5 months ago I decided that I should get to my ideal weight, 162. I had to eat about 3800 calories per day to reach it. Now I eat normally and exercise just enough to maintain 162. So far it's working great. If I'm 165 after dinner, I stop eating for the day and do three sets of squats. It works amazingly well. The scale doesn't lie. And yes, I still eat fast food, but I don't drink sodas very often.

I really don't think soft drinks or fast food are completely to blame.. It's all about calories in vs. energy expended. If you eat 4000 calories per day and don't exercise you're going to put on weight every day.

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Response to tridim (Reply #64)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:20 PM

70. I'm 5'3"

I eat whatever I want. I still think soft drinks and the massive calories they have has something to do with it. I drink a glass of milk, and I am totally satisfied for calories if I need a pick me up.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #43)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:30 PM

75. I don't have weight problems myself

never have.

But I do have cholesterol problems, and 1 taco bell 'basic' taco has 25% saturated fat.

my limit, according to my doctor? 5% a meal.

I would prefer to avoid open heart surgery like my grandfather hand, my uncle had, and my dad almost had.

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Response to eridani (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:21 AM

55. Weight loss industry = quackery

That industry is also sexist as hell, as the weight loss industry targets almost exclusively women. Ditto for the fashion industry. And let's face it: both are tied together.

They are also ageist, as weight gain is inevitable as one gets older, thanks to menopause, thyroid problems, and the like.

Lots and lots of ignorance and bigotry are posted about this issue.

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #55)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:25 AM

59. I hate January

As if November and December aren't bad enough will all the non-stop Christmas sales commercials and campaign commercials we have to see. In January, every other commercial is about weight loss.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:12 AM

15. "this study" is a meta-analysis of nearly 100 studies with over a million subjects. And it was

 

a known fact in dietetics even before this that moderate overweight was in fact associated with reduced mortality rather than decreased mortality.

The only criticism offered of the study in your link is a stupid one:

Willett says it's not helpful to look simply at how body mass indexes, or BMIs, influence the risk of premature death, as this paper did, without knowing something about people's health or fitness. Some people are thin because they're ill, so of course they're at higher risk of dying. The study doesn't tease this apart.


The study says moderately overweight people have a lower mortality risk than normal weight people, not 'thin' people. Yes, some normal weight people may be ill; so may some overweight people. To read the popular press you'd think most overweight people were ill, in fact. If being overweight is *really* so dangerous to health, that increased risk should show up in a meta-analysis of over 1 million subjects. It doesn't.

Being overweight is supposed to put you at increased risk for diabetes, heart disease, respiratory disease, and other conditions that increase mortality risk. If the link is so significant, that should show up in a large comparison of mortality risk between normal weight people & overweight people -- but it doesn't.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:50 AM

40. As should your post. Again, 20 pounds?

This topic is worse than gun control.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:25 AM

20. Slightly overweight people may live longer. Obese people do not.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #20)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:56 AM

22. the science says otherwise; that moderately obese people do, in fact, have a decreased

 

mortality risk in comparison with normal weight people.

only morbidly obese people and underweight people were found to have increased mortality risk.

People in the field already knew this. There have been lots of smaller studies showing the same thing. I learned about it in grad school. It was presented as a scientific curiousity, a paradox, much like the paradox of countries that drink more and smoke more than americans, yet have lower mortality and morbidity. and the profs' take on it was typically 'we "know" being overweight is unhealthy so there must be something else going on here.'

It's not highlighted in mass media because it goes against the dominant narrative about weight. Until now, because this team of researchers has been doing large studies.

predictable backlash: we 'know' that being overweight is 'unhealthy,' so it can't be true that fat people live longer than normal weight people. But the data shows they do, nevertheless.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #22)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:06 AM

24. Moderately obese people have shorter lifespans as well.


Life expectancy really starts to plummet when BMI crosses the 30 mark. Which is most medical professionals' definition of obesity.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:10 AM

25. BMI 18.5 is 'normal weight' & has the same risk in your chart as bmi 33, 'moderately obese'.

 

and as the largest study of its kind shows increased rather than decreased risk of mortality up to BMI 34, i wonder where the data for the '-3 years' in your chart comes from.

so far as i can tell, it's just a chart someone posted on their personal page, so neither you nor they probably know what it's based on.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:22 AM

28. Anything under 20 is underweight and is also unhealthy. Few people argue that 18 is a good BMI.


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Response to reformist2 (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:40 AM

33. actually, generally accepted clinical standard is 18.5-25 = normal weight.

 

e.g Centers for disease control:

The standard weight status categories associated with BMI ranges for adults are shown in the following table.

Below 18.5 Underweight
18.5 – 24.9 Normal
25.0 – 29.9 Overweight
30.0 and Above Obese


http://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/assessing/bmi/adult_bmi/index.html

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:54 AM

36. I also think we need to recognize the difference

Between being overweight and obese. Nobody is saying the Twiggy look is healthy.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:06 PM

84. That study was referring to people just a few lbs overweight. Not obese (30% over ideal wt).

I'm wondering if those just a little plump live longer (if I believe that...not convinced), but if that's true, I wonder if it's because they are happier people, to begin with. They don't diet too much, they can eat some good stuff and have a pleasant time, but they aren't so overweight that it interferes with activities they like to do (bowling, gardening, walking at the malls, walking the dogs, etc.).

There have been studies showing that a good attitude and good sense of humor mean you live longer.

Obese isn't as fat as people think. It's 30% over ideal weight. If a 5'5" woman should ideally weigh 125, then she is technically obese if she weighs 163 lbs (about 30% over 125). The study applied to her IF she weighs less than that.

Morbidly obese means the really super duper overweight people that we think of when we think of fat.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:42 AM

11. Obesity is neither healthy nor unhealthy

Just about every other measure is far more useful.

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Response to eridani (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:59 AM

48. bingo!

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:14 AM

16. The science says otherwise.

 

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:17 AM

18. So what is productive about telling people they are obese?

Has anyone in the history of mankind ever lost weight because someone said hey that's not healthy? I will sit and wait for the study that proves berating or telling people to lose weight is an effective tool in weight loss.

You admit that obesity is a symptom rather than a disease. So, wouldn't it be better to focus on the problems that lead to obesity rather than point it out? We need cities to be more walkable, we need food to not be contaminated with additives, fillers, and sugar. And we need to focus on health rather than numbers. And what's with all the stress our society produces maybe we should do something about that.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:22 AM

19. I have a friend who lost about 100 lbs, going from weighing 385 to weighing 285

All of her other health indicators have improved, and she no longer has to use insulin unless she has the flu or something. Whenever someone tells her that she is fat, she looks down at herself and unleashes a very theatrical "Aaarrrrrgh!! OMFG!!!" Sometimes the kibitzers even get the point.

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Response to eridani (Reply #19)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:16 AM

53. exactly. that's the point

It's not really about helping people. It's about prejudice and feeling superior. My mother in law is extremely overweight and was diabetic. She lost some weight and is no longer diabetic, but she is still very large. When she is walking down the street do you think people are thinkind hmm I wonder if her blood work is healthy? No. They are thinking she is an lazy obese person who refuses to take care of herself. I'm sorry your friend experiences that kind of prejudice. Good for her for getting healthy and to hell with all the jerks out there that just want to feel superior to her.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #53)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:28 AM

61. Excellent post.

Wish I could rec it.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:16 AM

26. Yes, the "let's shame them out of it"

thing works well with just about any human condition that self-appointed perfect people find on their icky list.

Those who think that we can legislate away obesity, how well did that work when we tried it with homosexuality?

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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #26)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:11 AM

41. Providing information saying certain weight thresholds

 

Are unhealthy and should be treated as a health risk is not shaming. It is being aware of fact that may propel society and individuals to combat the problem.

To allow people to live in denial about this by drawing wrong conclusions from this report is not helpful.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #41)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:18 PM

77. Yeah, sounds like the same bullshit

from thirty years ago: "Choosing to live a homosexual lifestyle will lead to you dying from AIDS"

Sorry, not buying your guilt trip.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:49 AM

39. And telling them 20 pounds makes them obese?

Give me a break.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:04 AM

23. It's just easier

It's easier to attack people instead of various conditions in our society that set people up to become obese.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:30 AM

29. Are you a doctor?

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:35 AM

30. Very few people have any place telling someone about their weight

Unless you're someone's doctor, you shouldn't be commenting on it at all.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:12 AM

42. I'm not commenting on your weight or any individual's weight.

 

Not sure why you are reading it as a personal attack.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:48 AM

38. More than 20 lbs? Just 20 lbs? That's hardly obese.


You should do some critical thinking about this issue.

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Response to Iris (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:17 AM

45. According to Mayo, a person can have normal BMI and be obese

 

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/normal-weight-obesity/AN02007

So yes, 20 lbs over normal weight would put probability that a person has abnormally high body fat as a near certainty.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #45)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 06:56 AM

87. that's just ridiculous. A person is obese when they are 30% above their ideal body weight

No one's ideal body weight is 60 pounds

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Response to Iris (Reply #87)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 07:43 AM

88. I'm just linking to what Mayo clinic says. But I guess you know better

 

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:17 AM

44. One thing I am convinced of:

People who harp on some attribute of another person have a way of sounding like "I"m superior". Somehow it doesn't fit into my view of compassion in any way known on earth no matter how much "concern" is expressed.

No, an obese person is likely to become more obese as a direct response of others harping on their appearance for many reasons but two important ones come to mind:
1) In order to escape the feeling that "everyone is looking at me and hating me because I am ugly" they stay at home and get little exercise.
2) In order to bring one minute of happiness to their lives they turn to the only source that does not risk immediate psychological horror - their favorite snack food.

Now when I say this, it does not escape me that people have differing genetic propensities for putting on weight. But, I am more than a bit suspicious when someone partitions out a group and puts them up for what is likely to be negative discussion.

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Response to AnnaLee (Reply #44)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:24 AM

46. My thread was in response to another thread calling into

 

Question whether overweight people are actually likely to live longer than people of normal weight as defined. Y medical researchers.

I am merely saying this study runs counter to the science. It is a "meta study" in that it is analyzing data from multiple other studies, and one could very well say amplifies skepticism about the importance of reducing body fat when such skepticism is overwhelmingly answered by other studies.

It is a controversial study meant to garner headlines and it has at least accomplished that objective.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #46)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:02 AM

50. Dear god you're desperate for the status quo

I am merely saying this study runs counter to the science. It is a "meta study" in that it is analyzing data from multiple other studies

Yeah, you know what established the current status quo? Meta studies.
You know what's a large part of science? Meta studies.
You know what is a lousy indicator of how anything in science works? A single study. That's kinda the point of doing meta studies.

If you have a problem in their methodology or data, feel free to complain about that. But so far your posts are a long series of "NUH UH!!!!"

This is how science works:

1) Someone finds something odd
2) A wide variety of scientists try to figure it out
3) Our knowledge expands - either we figure out how 1 is not actually odd, or we figure out something new we didn't know before.

This study is step 1. It will be a while until we are done with step 2. At that point, we'll find out if there was a flaw in this study, or if the situation is more complicated than we originally thought. Personally, I lean a bit towards the latter but I have no science to back that up. So I'll wait and see.

But now is not the time to panic, either in terms of demanding more adherence to the status quo or pigging out on ice cream.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:51 AM

47. you just contradicted your own statement

Do you honestly think those of us who are overweight don't know that we have to watch our blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol and other vitals? Because we do know we need to watch them and some of us do watch them. You said you think we should celebrate our diversity of size and shapes. Yes we should. And that means we shouldn't feel the need to go around telling fat people that they are killing themselves. I am overweight. I do go to the doctor and my blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol and other vitals are fine. So, I am going to celebrate my size diversity as you say we should do. I am in my late thirties and one thing I have learned with age is to not care what other people think of me. I am more kind and gentle with myself. I try very hard to accept and love myself and not put myself down. I like myself and what other people think of me just doesn't matter anymore. I have more important things to do with time like enjoying myself, my family, and my life. So with life being so short and precious I would tell big people out there to love yourself and enjoy life and I would tell others to try an exercise in kindness and compassion.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #47)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:26 PM

79. + a fucking gazillion n/t

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:02 AM

49. I struggle with my weight.

I want to get this fat off yesterday, and it's not because I'm worried about people not accepting me. That ship has sailed. It's because I don't want to have a heart attack. We all think one candy bar won't hurt, but it does.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:14 AM

52. No, it doesn't. Few people are severely overweight.

What kills is bigotry, which is somehow acceptable in this society.

Your post is full of the usual misinformation that "fat people" are people who "eat too much" and "exercise too little." That is not true. It also isn't true that people hit the refrigerator because they have emotional problems.

Many diseases, especially thyroid diseases and diabetes, CAUSE weight gain, not the other way around. This is fact.

Medical quackery has never appealed to me.

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:22 AM

56. People can be told all kinds of things

they can take that on board and believe it or not.

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Response to treestar (Reply #56)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:29 AM

63. I view health the same way I view religion

Each person has their own journey. Religion as well as health are things people have to come to their own realizations about for themselves. You can't tell someone how much to weigh or what to eat or what religion to be. First of all it doesn't work and it is disrespectful.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #63)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:20 PM

78. Thanks!

Most so-called progressives here have similar opinions about body size as the reich wingers have about being gay. They approach it as an undesirable choice, rather than respect the person's own decisions to live with their body as it is.

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