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Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:10 PM

I would be just a tad bit more understanding of Romney's wealth if, and it's a huge if...

he hadn't been born into a family of privilege and entitlement.

There is something uniquely American about the self-made man, a woman who sacrifices to build a company or a practice or someone inventing a key advancement.

But there is absoluty something wrong about a tax code that punishes work and benefits investments.

When I was growing up, I was taught that intellectual ability, willingness to work hard and access to investment funds were essential to success under our economic system.

It wasn't a guarantee, but it would surely be the foundation on which success is built. Especially when they were all weighed in equal parts.

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Reply I would be just a tad bit more understanding of Romney's wealth if, and it's a huge if... (Original post)
WCGreen Jan 2012 OP
gateley Jan 2012 #1
WCGreen Jan 2012 #3
gateley Jan 2012 #6
RZM Feb 2012 #23
badtoworse Jan 2012 #2
WCGreen Jan 2012 #4
badtoworse Jan 2012 #8
safeinOhio Jan 2012 #5
FogerRox Jan 2012 #9
riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #12
badtoworse Jan 2012 #15
riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #16
Cali_Democrat Jan 2012 #13
TheWraith Feb 2012 #21
jmowreader Feb 2012 #22
badtoworse Feb 2012 #24
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #25
badtoworse Feb 2012 #28
B Calm Feb 2012 #26
Fool Count Jan 2012 #7
FogerRox Jan 2012 #10
CaliforniaPeggy Jan 2012 #11
AtomicKitten Jan 2012 #14
RUMMYisFROSTED Jan 2012 #17
WCGreen Jan 2012 #19
RUMMYisFROSTED Feb 2012 #20
RUMMYisFROSTED Jan 2012 #18
Jennicut Feb 2012 #27

Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:34 PM

1. Read this RS piece about his father -- he sounds like a democrat and someone of strong principals!

Romeny fell far from the tree. Not sure his wealth/upbringing can be blamed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002206722

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Response to gateley (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:44 PM

3. I remember Romney from 68...

My folks were republicans and they liked the Michigan Governor.

I wasn't blaming his behavior on his parents, I was out pointing that he didn't have to struggle in order to make it. He was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple. Same as Bush.

And they want to make it even easier to preserve their wealth.

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Response to WCGreen (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 07:17 PM

6. I've always said that those of great wealth were braver and more willing to stand for what

they believe in because they never had to be subservient to others (for lack of a better word), and knew no matter what, they'd be okay.

I got that sense from Kennedy and from what I've seen and heard from FDR and they fought hard for their standards. Romney seems almost insecure for some reason. I wonder how/why the difference?

It's a very interesting article, IMO, so you may enjoy it even though you're familiar with Romney Sr. Or, it could be old stuff.
It was new to me though, and I was surprised. I assumed he'd come from Prescott/HW type of upbringing.


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Response to gateley (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 1, 2012, 10:42 PM

23. That has to be part of the reason they are so active in politics

 

Part of it is also the unpopular and un-PC notion that those people are also descended from wealthy folks and that is an indication that they have a genetic propensity for inventiveness, charm, and dynamism. Unfortunately for Mitt, he seems to have inherited the ability to make the money but not any of the other positive qualities

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:41 PM

2. Where do you think the capital to create jobs comes from?

It comes from investments. Without investment, there would little or no job growth. For that reason, the tax code should encourage investment, not punish it.

If you disagree, tell me how you would create new jobs and where you would get the capital.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:47 PM

4. In what way does it punish investments....

Being asked to pay taxes on income earned from investment is not punishing wealth anymore than it punishes working.

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Response to WCGreen (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:00 PM

8. Taxing investment income at the marginal rate does not encourage people to invest.

If I make money on the investment, I'd be taxed on the full amount at the highest marginal rate in the year I realize the gain. If I lose money, I only get to write off $3,000 per year and have to carry the loss forward. That seems punitive to me.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 06:57 PM

5. There will be no job growth in the USA

as long as capital can get a better return overseas. Tax policy needs to encourage domestic investments. Now capital does a great job of creating jobs overseas and the tax policy encourages it. Tax policy needs to reward domestic investment and penalize overseas investments. Greed encourages a 16% return in Brazil and China over a 3 or 4% return here.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:02 PM

9. YES-Thats the difference between New Deal tax policies

and tax policies over the last 30 years.

In 1980 the top income rate was 70%, effective rate 23%, today:35%-20%. During the 80's the majority of capital incentives to invest incountry to create US jobs have been eliminated.

And now we have the jobless recovery.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:20 PM

12. Well for me and my business, we create more capital by working harder and smarter.

We own and operate an organic farm operation and a horse training/boarding/sales/import business. I'll keep our scenario simple so the average layperson can understand.

We started out very small, working for other people and starting our business on the side. Once we were making enough to sustain our family, we rented a place to operate out of and we began investing our own physical labor into enhancing our business"day (finally leaving behind our old "day" jobs). Due to success, we finally saved enough to purchase our own place. All along we've bought horses cheap, trained them, resold them for more. Or trained other horses and riders successfully who told others about us. Once the horse operation kicked into high gear we added on the organic farming operation - initially doing it all ourselves (again the only capital being our own labor) until it grew to the point where we hired more people etc. etc. The classic small biz growth story.

When we work hard and smart, we make money. We hire more workers to help us deliver a better product and we invest in our operation to enhance performance. When we have extra we invest it back into the business. When we have even more extra money above and beyond that point, we do invest it but that doesn't enhance or promote job growth - it simply sits in the accounts growing.

I get extra capital by working harder myself and investing in my business. I get extra capital by hiring more workers who help us perform better and deliver a better product so I can grow my business and make even more money. "Capital" for many small businesses like mine doesn't come from a source like Bain (and it especially doesn't come from banks who haven't been lending in more than 5 years to anyone).

"Investments" don't make jobs. I'd stipulate that for most small businesses, 'capital" doesn't make jobs either. A decent product or service developed with knowledge and intelligence makes jobs. Even Steve Jobs started in his garage with $1500 from the sale of his VW ....

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:37 PM

15. Your work ethic is admirable and your success grew out of your own hard work

Not all businesses are like that. Some businesses are capital intensive in that they require substantial investments in equipment, buildings, raw materials, development capital, etc. Your model would not work in that situation - would need to raise substantial equity capital and find a bank willing to lend money. There are banks lending money in the right businesses, but they will want to substantial equity invested as well - maybe as much as 50% of the total required capital. In those situations, nothing would happen without investors.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 09:08 PM

16. What about Jobs and Apple?

I think its a convenient fallacy that "businesses" require this vast capital outlay.... "investors" like Bain or some other angel.

My former BIL started his pizza box company in his garage - it's now a multi million dollar biz with many machines and many workers - almost the perfect example of what you believe a biz needs a big bankster/investor in order to create. He now has several plants, semi trucks, a thousand or more workers.... I know, I know, anecdotal but almost everything I read and KNOW from personal experience tells me it's not "capital" that makes jobs. It's people being able to leave their "day job" (which in these days means having enough savings or NO entanglements that require health care insurance coverage) and taking a chance. They work their ass off and invest their OWN capital back into the biz to make it grow. It's very, very rare for an angel or bank to step in and assist.

IMHO, it's the lack of universal health care which is blocking entrepreneurship. No one can afford to leave their job and expose themselves or their loved ones to that gargantuan risk (an even greater financial risk than a start up)

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:24 PM

13. You sound like a supply sider

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 1, 2012, 10:02 PM

21. Probably not from Mitt Romney or people like him.

They don't invest to create jobs, they invest so that THEY won't have to HAVE one. That's rather the point. It's not an investment to them, it's income.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 1, 2012, 10:31 PM

22. There are three kinds of investments

There are the investments that create jobs--initial public offerings of stocks, bond issues, and other such investments where the invested money flows to the company whose name is on the certificate.

And then there are the "investments" where Rich Man A buys stock from Rich Man B then sells it to Rich Man C who sells it tomorrow to Rich Man D, who got the money to buy Rich Man C's stock by selling a different stock to Rich Man A. Those investments do NOT create jobs.

The third kind is the destructive one: give money to Mitt Romney so he can buy a company, fire all its workers and offshore the manufacturing of the profit, simply because he sees a dollar on the table that isn't his.

I would be totally in favor of a 10 percent capital gains tax on the first class of investments offset by taxing the second kind at the rate for ordinary income and doubling the tax rate on the third. The problem with our current way of taxing investment income is it doesn't differentiate between an investment that helps a company grow, Scrooge McDuck and Rich Uncle Pennybags buying each others' stock holdings like little kids swap baseball cards, and an investment that helps close a company down.

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #22)

Thu Feb 2, 2012, 03:11 PM

24. The lines are not that well defined and the implementation of the idea would become hugely political

Besides that, not everyone would buys and sells securities is rich. Lots of middle class even low income people have investments that realize capital gains. What about mutual funds? They aren't investments in the stock of any particular company.

Your idea is a great example of what is wrong with our tax policy - it's set up to accomplish some social objective. Taxes should be for raising revenue - period.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 2, 2012, 06:23 PM

25. From "the tax code should encourage investment" to "Taxes should be for raising revenue" in 2 posts

Wow, you can change your entire ideology on a dime. it all depends on the reply you get, it seems. It's amazing that, when you say:

"Where do you think the capital to create jobs comes from? It comes from investments. Without investment, there would little or no job growth. For that reason, the tax code should encourage investment, not punish it. If you disagree, tell me how you would create new jobs and where you would get the capital."

and then someone actually puts forward a scheme for encouraging investment ,with real numbers, and specifying the difference between productive investment and simple gambling or destruction for gain, you come back by claiming that is "what is wrong with our tax policy - it's set up to accomplish some social objective." You asked for a social objective. You wanted an answer for "how you would create new jobs".

It's as if you think you can walk away from your previous positions, and you think none of us will notice your rank hypocrisy.

Fuck, your posts in this thread are a complete fucking waste of everyone's time.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #25)

Fri Feb 3, 2012, 09:33 AM

28. I guess I'm busted. Maybe I have a future in politics

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 2, 2012, 06:30 PM

26. Jobs are created by DEMAND. If

there is demand for something, trust me, capital will capitalize on it!

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 07:21 PM

7. There is nothing "uniquely American" about self-made men. Every country has them.

 

None of Russian or Chinese super-rich were born into a "family of privilege and entitlement".
Simply because there were no such families in either country when they were born. At the same
time vast majority of those self-made billionaires stole and cheated their ways into riches via
sweet-heart deals, government corruption and, quite often, outright violent crime (including murder).
So self-made-ness per se is not something to be unconditionally admired. I will take a child of
wealth and privilege who inherited his riches fair and square over a "self-made" thief and murderer
any time.

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Response to Fool Count (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:05 PM

10. None.......

Okey dokey, I guess its make shit up time at the ole DU.......

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:10 PM

11. Well said! And I agree...n/t

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 08:30 PM

14. I've got a huge problem with him stashing his cash in Switzerland, Ireland, and

... in Cayman Islands, plus he is proposing a tax holiday for repatriation of funds!!

Romney is the living breathing .0001%. An excellent target in this election. He is the unfairness of the tax code personified.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 09:10 PM

17. "There is something uniquely American about the self-made man..."

Mythology.

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Response to RUMMYisFROSTED (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:23 PM

19. All myths are based on fact...

Look I hate to get to the personal level when giving examples just because I saw something happen. It's not a genuine argument.

But, I have been doing taxes for over 25 years now, I have been there for a whole bunch of new companies. Some have made it big and have outgrown me, some have faltered and fell away and some have been steady and have carved out a steady niche of income.

The point is, all of these people wanted to go on there own and they did it.

I can't think of any other country that makes it easy for almost anyone to chase their dream.

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Response to WCGreen (Reply #19)

Wed Feb 1, 2012, 09:46 PM

20. Not one country?

I could name several.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2012, 09:12 PM

18. "It wasn't a guarantee..."

The small print, dagnabit!


Of course it wasn't a guarantee.

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Response to WCGreen (Original post)

Thu Feb 2, 2012, 07:09 PM

27. There are plenty of wealthy people from privileged backgrounds that are not like Romney.

FDR was from a wealthy family but he cared about the poor. It is the state of mind of the person, not what they are given at birth.

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