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Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:41 PM

I spent three weeks in a psychiatric treatment program, does that diminish me as a human being?

Our society tends to be less than kind to people viewed as "other" - we need only look to some of the sentiments which have been expressed over the years of our country's history about various groups, Native Americans and African Americans, members of the GLBT community, Hispanics, immigrants, Asian Americans, Arab Americans. By and large, these old attitudes, fortunately, have been abandoned to the dustheap of history where they belong.

However, there seems to be a great deal of misinformation about, and mistrust of, fellow citizens with mental health issues. The fact that a very small handful of disturbed individuals have committed tragic and sensational crimes has been used as an excuse to attempt to scapegoat people with mental health diagnoses on the part of some groups, infamously of late Wayne LaPierre's recent public display post-Newtown. Ironic, his public performance, demeanor, and affect left the good Mr. LaPierre looking very much like the "mentally disturbed" he was attempting to throw under the bus in order to justify his organization's hard line stance against any rational gun control policy.

But I didn't post this to discuss guns or massacres or the NRA. I would like to address the misperception that a mental illness diagnosis somehow means that a " normal" life worth living is beyond the realm of possibility for those afflicted.

I came into this situation, unexpectedly, at age 47. I have never been diagnosed with any type of mental illness before this, in fact, during a "family crisis" about 20 years ago, I actually went by choice for a one-hour evaluation with a psychiatrist, who found me to be quite "mentally fit", especially in light of my personal history. I came from a very dysfunctional and abusive home, and, as the only boy, I was the particular target of my abusive father's wrath. At a young age, I was exposed to and observed some significantly sexually deviant behavior by my father, later he became very abusive and violent towards me, in particular, as a teenager he would pin me down in the site if a loaded gun and berate and terrorize me. He was also extremely abusive to my mother, and I assumed the role of defender and protector to the bet of my ability, often intentionally antagonizing him so that he would turn his anger on me and away from her. And, I also suffered greatly from the lack of a worthwhile male role model, so I was doubly betrayed by someone who should have protected and nurtured me.

Despite this, I would like to think I turned out to be a "respectable member of society". I graduated at the top of my high school class. I have two bachelors degrees, one with a 4.0 gpa. I have held a full-time job of one form or other continuously since two days after I graduated from college the first time around in 1987. I have never used alcohol, tobacco, or illegal drugs, nor have I ever abused prescription drugs. My only two real addictive behaviors have been a major Coke problem -the kind that comes in a bottle from Atlanta, along with it's cohorts Pepsi and Mt. Dew, and my propensity to overspend on "luxuries" to the detriment of my long-term retirement savings, but even that has never been a dire situation, no bankruptcy, a great credit rating, just a lot of fun, but unnecessary, "stuff" - I guess rampant consumer consumption isn't the worst vice in the world, most of us fall for it at some point. I pay my bills, pay my taxes, cut the grass and shovel the snow, vote, go to the grocery store and catch up on laundry on weekends, pretty much do everything anyone else in this society does. A few years ago, when the economic crisis hit Michigan hard and first, I realized my career at that time was very vulnerable, so I went back to the local university and completed a paralegal program. I have been employed as a paralegal in the areas of probate, estate, and tax law going in the better part of five years now. I am the primary caregiver to my mother, who is 87 with congestive heart failure and on oxygen, which is stressful in and of itself.

So, yes, I was the last person, frankly, who I thought would have a mental health crisis that would lead me to treatment in a psychiatric program. But events did spiral out of my control this past summer, and that is what happened. I became very depressed over life situations, began having anxiety and panic attacks, vivid recollections of past painful events from my childhood, out of character behavior in the form of road rage, all of which lead me to conclude I needed some kind of professional assistance in dealing with all of this. And, suddenly, events turned on a dime one day in August. I was threatened by the boyfriend of one of my law firm's clients, a man who made a series of calls to me to tell me that he was going to "come down there and blow your fucking head off". That was exactly the wrong thing at the wrong time, when I was already worn down, and I "lost it" and dissolved into a mass of raw nerves, tears, panic, sleeplessness, and terror.

So, I made an appointment with a psychiatrist. And, I really didn't like what I was told, which was that I had bipolar II syndrome, and that my state if mind merited something more intensive than exclusively outpatient treatment.

So, in September, I attended three weeks, 14 days total, of a partial hospital program, aka "day hospital" m-f 9 to 3:30 with an hour off for lunch. It consisted of group therapy, education about various mental health issues, individual counseling, recreational therapy. There were roughly 10 to 12 patients at any one time, people rotated in and out.

I went into it terrified that it would be some version of "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest", that I would be drugged up, sat in a chair in the corner so " out of it" I barely knew my name and drooled on myself all day. The reality was far different. Staff was kind, compassionate, caring, and helped a lot. Some days were emotional and challenging, others rather soothing and calm on my frayed nerves. All of it was worthwhile. I didn't want to be there going into it, and in the end fought my insurance company to be authorized to extend from 10 to 14 days so I could feel some closure to the experience.

My life since then has changed dramatically for the better in many ways, and not at all in others. I still go to work, do the housework (well, if I'm not playing on DU all day, lol), walk the dog, the "regular" stuff, everything everyone else in middle class suburban America does.

But, I came away with a vastly different attitude. I have learned that I need to take care of myself, to allow myself to make mistakes without beating myself up about them, to not have to feel that every day is a race and every routine event a test of my worth. I learned a lot in the hospital program about coping with life in a healthy manner, and am applying it, quite well actually.

I have met some brave, amazing people who are, like me, living with and dealing with mental,health issues. Even at the hospital program, there was a big cross section if society in the patient pool - an ordained minister studying for his doctorate of divinity, an elementary school teacher, a bank loan officer trainer, a cop, an Army major who retired and became an executive in automotive supply, a young IT exec for GM, several college students, an elderly housewife, an exercise kinesiologist, and yours truly, a slightly battle-fatigued probate and tax paralegal. And, none if us is the next Charles Manson or Jared Loughner, just ordinary people who had hit a rough patch for various reasons and who needed a little outside support to get over the hump and get back to their ordinary lives.

I become very offended by people who lump everyone with any kind of mental health issue together with the handful of spree killers. There seems to be a perception that people with many mental health diagnoses are "violent and dangerous", which is patently untrue. Like the vast majority of others dealing with mental illness, I never had the remotest desire to hurt anyone else, not even my abusive father. Yes, I did "do something" about him in my 20's, but I did it the "right way" through legal channels with the help of an attorney who dealt with mental health and domestic violence issues. At my worst, yes, I admit, I could have killed myself, but I was only reacting to the situation in a short-term manner. The long-range view is much more positive. I take the mood stabilizer lamictal daily, which along with weekly therapy has helped a lot. My diagnosis is now in flux, I may have been initially misdiagnosed and may actually have PTSD instead of bipolar, I will find out more about that next week.

And frankly, if you met me on the street, or at work, or socially, you would NEVER know any of this unless I chose to tell you. I don't "act odd", I don't look "scruffy" or "dirty" considering I take at least two showers a day, wear suit and tie to work, have my hair cut regular at a salon, and am kind of particular about my appearance and can take 10 minutes just to pick out the "right" tie to go with that day's shirt. I'm the guy who always holds the door for others, who remembered to get gift cards for the janitorial staff, the mailman, the UPS guy, and the building maintenance and security guys at Christmas. I am living with my mental health issues just as if I were living with diabetes, or cancer, or multiple sclerosis. I could be you, or you could be me. First and foremost, that is why I and millions of others who have mental health issues deserve you compassion, support, and understanding, rather than fear, disgust, stigmatization. The "Golden Rule" doesn't come with a disclaimer that says "this rule doesn't apply to those with mental illness."

So, I ask one thing - think twice before making some derogatory comment or insensitive remark about those with mental illness. Because frankly, we deserve better, and we are you, part of society, and you could easily, through one of a thousand avenues, find yourself here where I am.

My name is Dennis, I live in Bloomfield, Michigan, and that is my story. To answer my own question posed in the headline to this OP, no, it doesn't diminish me or my worth in any way. It just proves that I am human and imperfect, just like everyone else who has ever lived.

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Reply I spent three weeks in a psychiatric treatment program, does that diminish me as a human being? (Original post)
Denninmi Jan 2013 OP
hobbit709 Jan 2013 #1
annabanana Jan 2013 #2
arthritisR_US Jan 2013 #16
John.Mekki Jan 2013 #47
flying rabbit Jan 2013 #3
niyad Jan 2013 #4
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denny1952 Jan 2013 #11
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Tobin S. Jan 2013 #15
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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:47 PM

1. No it doesn't

In fact it may make you saner than most people. You realized you had a problem and got help.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:47 PM

2. My Dear Denni

I believe what we consider "mental health" isn't a black & white issue. Rather there is a sliding scale and everyone, yes EVERYONE is somewhere on that scale. They are in different positions on that scale at different times in their lives, and under different conditions.

We tend to determine the severity of the condition relative to the individuals ability to "fit in" with established precepts.

All of us deal with issues, with varying degrees of success. All of us hurt. All of us are alone in our own skins. All of us are doing the best we can.

Very few of us are qualified to judge.

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Response to annabanana (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:29 PM

16. This is such an excellent point! Thank you.

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Response to annabanana (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:16 AM

47. I would say no one is

 

qualified to judge.
Simply as "mental illness" is not a factual illness, it is just a series of misbehaviours that do not fit into one particular set of socially accepted behaviours

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:48 PM

3. k&R

Well written.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:53 PM

4. thank you for sharing this with us, dennis. no, it does not diminish you in any way at all--rather

it shows how very brave and determined and real you are.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:53 PM

5. All of us struggle, one way or another. You are just as worthwhile as any one.

Edited to add: I have struggled with depression, off and on, for years. Most days are good.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:53 PM

6. Congratulations on your courage and your success.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:53 PM

7. Recommend and thank you.

Myself, not having to deal with this, have great empathy for people who do. I have a friend who was diagnosed w/bipolar in his 40s, and he did not deal well with it. Your description might help with some compassion hopefully.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:56 PM

8. Okay, so I'm not a psychiatrist..

nor do I play one on TV. But just my two cents, you sound saner than 99% of the people I know.
Just sayin'.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:04 PM

9. I am more inclined to believe it is PTSD...

Just based on your story. But, I am not a doctor or a diagnostician. But, in any case it sounds like something that could happen to anyone even without having a horrific childhood. Just being threatened with violence can cause PTSD. It can be caused by witnessing a horrific event especially violence in the home.

I wish I didn't understand where you are coming from so much. But, I am glad you made a life for yourself and are functional. I wouldn't blame you if you weren't though or feel you are less than if for any reason you just couldn't hold it together. Glad you got help, I hope you also get the right diagnosis whatever it might be.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #9)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 02:09 PM

73. I agree, Kalidurga

PTSD is a bitch, Dennis, and it just hides in there til it's triggered. I appreciate your sharing this here. We're all nuts in one way or another. Sounds like you're a high achiever despite your horrific childhood to me, which actually makes you stronger than most.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:04 PM

10. You have achieved DU greatness with this post.

I feel saner just for having read it.

Kick and DU Rec.

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Response to Tobin S. (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:00 PM

69. I agree 100 percent nt

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:05 PM

11. Thanks Denni

Denni, Thanks for sharing your story. It took real courage. I know about mental illness all too well. I grew up with a father who was schizophrenic. He lived to be 78 years old and managed his illness for all those years. In spite of his illness, he was a wonderful father, one who overcame many obstacles. People do not really realize that mental illness is just like any other kind of disease. But the social stigma remains within our society. I try not to dwell on how I was ridiculed in my neighborhood as a child because of my father's illness. The world today is a scary place. The internet has been good but horrible at the same time. People make so many cruel remarks to others. When I read inspiring stories like Denni's, I know that there are others who have overcome. May God bless you and always keep you in His care.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:05 PM

12. I have diagnosed depressive disorder.

I have been able to manage it well with drugs. I certainly hear you. I'm right there with you. I sometimes wonder how I would cope if society broke down and my drugs became unavailable. I know that I could survive but life would be much more difficult.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:16 PM

13. Of course it doesn't.

We're actually gradually progressing toward better acceptance of the mentally ill. It just seems like it's taking forever, and it's still the go-to outgroup many people lump anyone they don't want to be one of them in.

We're advancing, but we've still got a long long way to go.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:27 PM

15. I agree

And I see it in the context of DU as well. I've been a member since 2003 (did a voluntary name change back in 2009). DU as a whole seems to be more enlightened about mental health issues than the way things were here when I joined up. We're doing good, but we have room for improvement and it takes work and time. But, yes, we are advancing, and it is due in large part to people like the OP who are open about their illnesses. It takes great courage to do that.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:24 PM

14. Thanks for posting this Dennis. Your point is spot

on and it was a great read!

There is so much ugliness in the world and we are all just trying to find our way through it all. It can feel so daunting that it lends us to taking the easy way out by pigeon holing people or groups. Unfortunately, we do it based on ignorance and a failure of empathy. Your story brings context to both of these and I thank you

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:31 PM

17. You are probably more sane than most people in this country

Because you have now learned about your weaknesses and your strengths, unlike those of us who bumble through life sometimes doubting ourselves but mostly denying that we might have serious problems. You are also incredibly brave to open yourself up to all of us strangers.

I come from a family in which manic-depressive tendencies are obvious but none of us have gotten treated for them. It goes back generations - after a family business failed my great grandmother went into a depression, retreated to her bed and did not emerge for six months. My great grandfather had to deal with hunting for a job, keeping a roof over his head and that of his four children while trying to help his wife get over her emotional collapse.

That is family history that we all know - but no one seems to have applied that knowledge to the following generations and used it to help us learn to deal with our problems. I'm lucky - I'm pretty mildly affected. It's hurt my business, but I have survived with help from my incredibly wonderful husband.

I know I should get counseling, but at my age it seems sort of useless. I've developed coping skills that have taken me through life. I'm not as brave as you are, dennimi, or haven't reached the same crisis point you did though there were times I came close.

The one thing I have learned over the years is that most people are not totally sane. Most of us are just passing as normal while hiding all sorts of oddities behind the curtains. Maybe that is why so many are willing to point fingers at the few that are unable to hide their "not normalness" - it distracts from their own irregularities.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:35 PM

18. Spot on. KnR -- wish I could recc this more than once.

You speak for so many.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:36 PM

19. To the question in your subject line: Absolutely not! eom

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:42 PM

20. People are shocked when I tell them about my clinical depression without sounding ashamed.

WTF is there to be ashamed about? Nobody calls me brave when I talk about my heart attack in the same way. The more people who are able to talk about mental illness as the *physical* condition that it is, the more people will stop freaking out about it.

Learning to accept that mental illness is just a technical term and not some sort of shameful choice is key to living a healthy life. Yea, I have clinical depression. I take a medication and I see a therapist. Yea, I had a heart attack. I take medication and I see a cardiologist. Yea, I have diabetes. I take a medication and I see my doctor. Yea, I have vision problems. I wear glasses and I see my opthamologist.

Or athsma, or a broken leg, or the flu, or kidney disease. Or AIDS. Or whatever. These aren't *who* we are. These are things we *have*. Maybe we have them for a little while, maybe we have them forever.

I am happy to hear that Dennis has found his peace with his situation, and can be yet another person who can talk about it as he feels like it. One more person helps eveyone else get there.

Peace, brother.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:48 PM

21. Excellent post..You are very sane to me.

I can understand being in a mental state of depression because I was in that state. I had counseling and also took Prozac.

My husband and younger son died 18 months apart from cancer...I found it very hard to go back to work There were some supervisors who had no empathy. I was lucky to have a friend who was the CEO's assistant. Once she knew what was happening my life was more bearable.

It sounds like you have progressed well. My older son has discovered he has Aspergers. He and I are relieved this was discovered. Many times I had worried about him.

Thank you for writing your post. You bring up very relevant points.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:59 PM

22. Thank you for posting this

Your story is so similar to mine except my father died when I was 13. Everything was going so well in my life until two things happened. My girlfriend's (may as well be wife) mother lied to my background investigator when I was trying to become a cop and said I hit her daughter in front of her. I would never hit a woman, period. This gave me a bad name within the profession so no one hired me. The second was a propane explosion that resulted in me having cerebral vascular spasms, which leads to strokes (along with PTSD). Then recently my girlfriend decided she didn't want to have to care for someone older than her and broke up with me. Currently, I do live life on a razor thin margin. I am in counseling but am beginning to think something more intensive maybe need so I can keep trying at life.

Your story gives me some hope. Thanks!!!

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:12 PM

23. Excellent post. n/t

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:18 PM

24. America should have health care insurance parity for mental health services. We should make this

commitment to one another.

There are perspectives in the field of psychiatry that say what you went through, Denninmi, is actually a phase in a healthy adaptation to a pathological culture, like anti-bodies reacting to disease.

I feel we should admit the truth about how we live and work to change it, so that more people are authentically happy.

Thank you for your story, Denninmi, in one version or another it IS our story too.

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Response to patrice (Reply #24)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:33 PM

25. Yep. I hear that's a part of the Affordable Care Act.

From what I've heard, mental health care will be covered like the medical problem that it is come 2014.

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Response to Tobin S. (Reply #25)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:56 AM

41. It was part of TARP, surprisingly

Ted Kennedy put it on as a rider at the last minute.

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Response to patrice (Reply #24)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:46 PM

28. It was passed as part of TARP in 2008, oddly enough

Kennedy insisted on having it as a rider amendment.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:35 PM

26. I fell off a cliff when I was 12

and spent three weeks in the hospital. Is there a difference?

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:43 PM

27. Thank you for sharing your story

I know these last few weeks have hit you hard.

I've suffered from clinical depression for years and anxiety stemming from a reaction to a prescription drug so I do understand. I also understand that sometimes people are so sick that they are incapable of getting help for themselves.

I want to put a couple things out there:

If we deny that mental illness can cause violence in some people, then people who need medical help will end up in prison instead ( as MANY do now) .

We, as a culture, need to figure out a better way to deal with people who are so ill that there is a good chance they will hurt themselves or others. Right now we have so many people out there who end up on the streets or in prison due to their illnesses and that just isn't right.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:47 PM

30. I think part of the problem is that "mental illness" has a clinical definition

which is different from how people use it.

Somebody goes to a mall and shoots a bunch of people. Is he "crazy"? Sure, in the common sense. Did he have a diagnosable mental illness? That's less clear. "Evil" is not recognized in DSM-IV and I'm pretty sure it's not going to be in DSM-V either.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:46 PM

29. I applaud your recognition of a problem

and seeking to solve it. Just think, what a different country it would be if, at a pivotal point in his life, George W. Bush had spent three weeks in a psychiatric treatment program.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:49 PM

31. You're damn right, Dennis

K&R

You are us and we are you. And I must add, you are a champ, Dennis! You need to write a book. Really. That was a beautiful. I read every word, all the way down...it was so smooth and not a word out of place. You are so lucky in so many ways, Dennis, but your ability to summarize what you have gone through in life is nothing less than amazing.

I have never ever been one to denigrate anyone with mental illness. Did you write this in reaction to the mental illness that the perpetrators of the recent mass murder sprees in Aurora, CO and Newtown, CT. were suffering? Please please don't compare what you have gone through with what was wrong with those young men. You (as we) are light years away from the condition of those guys.

Keep taking your meds, working, caring for your mamma, walking your dog and writing. You're going to be alright, Dennis. And if and when you meet some asshole who treats you like there's something wrong with you, look at them and smile and in your mind, say to yourself "There, but for the grace of God, go I."

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:57 PM

32. I'm sorry to hear of your pain and glad you found help. I think most of the mental health talk came

 

with the gun issue. I don't think people who seek mental health help should be chastised, or denied employment, but I have a bipolar daughter and she's one of the last people in the world who should have access to a gun. Gun registration should include a check for any kind of psychiatric or depression drugs. It doesn't make my daughter a bad person, but it does mean she doesn't need a gun.

Who would knowingly hand a depressed person a gun anyway? The thought of this makes me think Monty Python episode. It's insane that there isn't already a way for a gun seller to check the mental health status of a person attempting to buy a gun.

I'm sorry you feel targeted. Hopefully the gun debate will be settled soon. As you point out, there are millions of people with mental health issues and as a society we need to better prioritize mental health issues and causes.

I hope you find peace.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #32)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:02 AM

35. It's a privacy issue.

You think my medical records should be a matter of public record. I don't think that's any of your business.

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Response to Tobin S. (Reply #35)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:11 AM

44. I absolutely agree! You have a constitutional right to privacy and your medical records shouldn't be

 

made public. The federal government can keep it private just like your social security number. No one needs to know why someone was declined a weapon, just a decline notice, nothing more. Just like the doctors are required to report to the CDC any public health concern you pose, yet those records are kept confidential and private. I'm not saying you pose a public health concern, I'm making a point that this type of thing is done everyday without it imposing on ones privacy.

They could also make a law that you have to mark on any gun registration form that you've not taken certain meds, just like people do for glasses on a drivers license. If you lie there's a strict prison term if anyone were to find out you have a gun. That also protects your privacy because if you have taken any of the meds or have been treated at a facility, you can decline filling out the form for a weapon and no one is the wiser.

I know people who are talking to congress persons about both of those options and a few more being very viable options. This doesn't need to be done in a way that infringes on a persons right to privacy and it will also guarantee less guns on the streets. A win/win.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #44)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:24 AM

49. What meds? Paxil? 5 htp that you buy at a health food store? Or thorazine, haldol? "Any kind of depr

depression medicine" is....what?

Glasses for a drivers license is to make sure you can see safely. So "any kind of depression medicine" means that you are what? Too mentally ill to deal with having a gun?

Mentally ill people are so much more likely to be victims than perps. "it will also guarantee less guns on the streets" by those who typically do not use them.

Make a mark you haven't taken "certain meds" meaning what?

I can not believe I am having to point out these simple facts. Yes, people who do mass murders and even smaller ones do by fact of doing this fall into the "mentally ill" category but good god it does not go the other way.

Cats have fur. Furry things are cats. Poor logic, off base and wrong.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #49)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 02:24 AM

57. So you see this can be done while protecting ones privacy.

 

depression medicine" is....what? Any prescription written by a licensed Dr. for depression or any other mental health issue.

So "any kind of depression medicine" means that you are what? Too mentally ill to deal with having a gun?

Yes, I believe they are to ill to have a gun. Postpartum depression has caused woman to murder their children. Bipolar disorder is a serious condition, mania causes sleeplessness, sometimes for days, along with hallucinations, psychosis, grandiose delusions, and/or paranoid rage. They do not need guns.

Dysthymia causes problems with concentration or making decisions almost every day, recurring thoughts of death or suicide, suicide plan, or suicide attempt - Again, no, they do not need guns.

A major U.S. government study released in 2006 showed that fewer than 50 percent of people become symptom-free on antidepressants, even after trying two different medications. Furthermore, many who do respond to medication slip back into depression within a short while, despite sticking with drug treatment.


So as you see, only 50 percent get better with meds.

Make a mark you haven't taken "certain meds" meaning what?

Meaning make a check mark on your gun application swearing you have not been treated for any of the above, because there's a possibility you could do harm to yourself or others if you are suffering from them. There are several others that should be added like schizophrenia.

The people who do mass shootings are suffering from mental illness and shouldn't have guns. If we're going to regulate the guns to stop the killings we should cover the reasons also. If we don't, we don't accomplish anything.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #57)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 04:42 AM

61. How would this have stoped any of the killings?

the last guy did not own guns, he stole them. if they are undiagnosed then they obviously still qualify to own a gun under this law. This will discourage people from seeking help and is even more likely to increase as a result.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #61)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:28 PM

71. The last guy didn't own guns but there are others who have, so it would have stopped those &

 

Isn't this the point? To stop all the killings that you can? Or are we only talking about stopping some killings? There's no evidence to show that people won't seek mental health help just because they won't be able to purchase a gun. People go to the Dr everyday knowing that at any time their name could be turned over to the CDC, it doesn't stop them. Mentally stable people don't go on killing sprees, mentally unstable people do. These things need to be addressed in the new gun legislation if we're really sincere about wanting the gun killing stopped.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #71)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 03:17 PM

77. Backwards logic & bigotry. People who kill are mentally ill does NOT = mentally ill kill people.

Susan Smith killed her kids in a car. I guess people who have ever had any sort of mental illness or any type of psych or depression Rx should be prohibited from having a drivers license or owning a car. Right?

Andrea Yates drowned her kids in a bathtub. People who have ever had any sort of mental illness or any type of psych or depression Rx should be prohibited from having a bathtub in their house. Right?

To quote you: "Isn't this the point? To stop all the killings that you can? Or are we only talking about stopping some killings?"

Again. People with depression or other mental illnesses are HUGELY more likely to be victims than perps.

People who kill others are mentally ill. Only poor logic twists this into people who have depression and psych illnesses kill people.

Cats are animals with fur. Animals with fur are cats.

Poor logic and it is bigotry to blame a large group of people for the acts of a few.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #77)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 05:14 PM

83. Yes Susan Smith & Andrea Yates, both mentally ill. Both murdered their children & you believe

 

people with these types of illness's should be handed guns.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #83)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 05:17 PM

85. Where did I say that? Point it out. Don't even TRY to put words in my mouth.

Point. it. out.

People with depression or other mental illnesses are MUCH more likely to be victims than perps.

People who kill others are mentally ill. Only poor logic twists this into people who have depression and psych illnesses kill people.

Cats are animals with fur. Animals with fur are cats.

Poor logic and it is bigotry to blame a large group of people for the acts of a few.

And now to say I think Yates and Smith should be handed guns is further poor logic.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #85)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 05:27 PM

86. You refuse to answer my question so I'm left to speculate. Why do you feel mentally ill need guns?

 

Do you believe Andrea and Susan should have been sold a gun knowing they were mentally ill?

If so, why do you feel the mentally ill should be sold guns?

Simple questions.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #86)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 05:34 PM

87. And you refuse to show where I said that. Or address the statements you

made showing you were being overly broad. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2143843

You can pretend I "feel" something all you want. This is called a strawman.

Why do you feel we should nuke the moon? I'm left to speculate since you won't answer that.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #87)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 05:45 PM

90. What exactly are you debating? I don't believe

 

people who have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, postpartum depression, schizophrenia, or depression should be sold guns. I've also listed the medical reasons as to why.

Do you believe they should be sold guns?

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #90)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 05:55 PM

91. Some can, yes. Some no. It depends. Schizophrenia no. Bipolar probably unless well controlled.

Depression including postpartum, it depends as there is a HUGE range there.

You also wrote
"Postpartum depression has caused woman to murder their children. Bipolar disorder is a serious condition, mania causes sleeplessness, sometimes for days, along with hallucinations, psychosis, grandiose delusions, and/or paranoid rage. They do not need guns.

Dysthymia (depression) causes problems with concentration or making decisions almost every day, recurring thoughts of death or suicide, suicide plan, or suicide attempt - Again, no, they do not need guns."


And "some mentally ill people don't need guns. Not all mentally ill people, the ones who suffer from the illness's I listed above."

And " Not all mentally ill people will use a gun to mass kill" but you feel all should be penalized. You use the hypothetical situation, that mentally ill people sometimes kill, so no one who has had ANY sort of mental illness should have guns.

My answer? It depends on the mental illness.

Now you point out where I said Yates and Smith should have been sold guns. Point. It. Out.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #91)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 06:41 PM

93. So you agree there are people who are mentally ill who shouldn't be allowed to have guns?

 

That's the main point I was trying to make. This should be a consideration in the new legislation. Just as everyone who'll never kill anyone will be forced to register for a gun.

I listed the illness's that in my opinion should be taken into consideration, but others may want this broader. Those who want to get rid of guns all together may want it broadened further as that would narrow down the field quite a bit, since a high percentage of Americans are on some type of antidepressant. Just like they did with smoking, keep making the laws broader and eventually there's no where to smoke and that makes everyone safer. Not saying I agree with this, just saying that's a simple way to get guns away from most people.

My apologies for coming to the wrong conclusion that you believe mentally ill people like (Andrea and Smith) should be allowed guns. But as I said, when you kept ditching my questions in the debate, I was left to speculate the reason why. You finally stated clearly that you believe it depends on the mental illness. I guess that means we agree on the topic, but may not agree on the specific illness being considered.

It was very nice having an adult conversation with you, about a topic that makes most of us cringe.

Thank you.



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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #93)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 06:53 PM

94. The only question I was "ditching" was you accusing me of something I didn't say.

The main points I was trying to make is your definitions are too broad as there are many people who are on anti-depressives who are perfectly fine owning a gun and that your logic was backwards. Just because crimes are committed by mentally ill people does not then mean that ALL mentally ill people should be penalized, especially with your overly broad definition.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #93)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 07:04 PM

95. How do you know these people are mentally ill?

A lot of them, like the mosque shooter, and most who kill abortion doctors, just hold strong beliefs that tell them it's ok to kill for it. Unless you are saying religion is a mental illness, which I wouldn't disagree, but you will anger a whole different anthill.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #95)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 07:37 PM

98. Ahh, good question, but I believe the government has already broadened their definition of terrorist

 

and correct me if I'm wrong, the definition now includes any religious person who prays a lot or could be considered a religious fanatic. Meaning, my good Sir, that it's up to you to turn them in. Better known as - If you see something say something, even if they're innocent they'll be falsely accused and interrogated without a policeman ever having to do his job of investigating. There are already eyes on that anthill.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #98)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 07:44 PM

99. So, you're ok with that?

I think that religion has caused some great problems, but I don't think we should prosecute all religions. At this point I don't even know if you are serious or not. Have you seen a psychologist to determine if you have any mental illnesses? should we make mental evaluations a prerequisite to owning a gun?

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #99)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 08:01 PM

100. No I'm in no way ok with that. I'm not part of the anthill but I don't condone the dangerous

 

label being placed on them. Sorry I could have been clearer that I was being factious.

As it stands a Dr is required to notify the CDC if someone has certain illness's that could be a health threat to others. The same could apply to mentally ill person whom a Dr believes could be a threat to themselves or others if they applied for a gun permit.

I myself have no business having a gun in my home when my daughters home to visit.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #83)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 04:11 AM

116. I don't know that Susan Smith was diagnosed with a mental illness prior to the incident.

She probably did have sociopathic personality disorder which is very hard to,diagnose. She also did not own a gun and personally kill someone with a gun. She manipulated teenaged boys who were not mentally ill to use guns to kill her husband.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #57)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 03:11 PM

76. Again, backwards logic. People who kill are mentally ill does NOT = mentally ill kill people

Cats are animals with fur. Animals with fur are not cats.

See. Poor logic.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #76)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 03:54 PM

80. You're kidding right? Some mentally ill people kill people - this is a fact. If you want to stop the

 

killing you need to also address the killing done with guns by those who are mentally ill, which has happened many times. Why is it not as important if a mentally ill person kills with gun when it's documented fact that many people who are mentally ill are sometimes those who mass kill? One of my daughters is bipolar. At times she acts out of rage. She doesn't need a gun - period. I have a friend who suffers from depression. She often has suicidal thoughts. She doesn't need a gun either.

Please tell me why you feel mentally ill people should have guns?

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #80)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 04:12 PM

81. "Some" do so penalize all. Gotcha. As I said, poor logic and bigotry.

"many people who are mentally ill are sometimes those who mass kill"? What? "Many are sometimes"? Oh. Kay.

No. "many people who are mentally ill" do not mass murder. People who mass murder are mentally ill, but "many people who are mentally ill mass kill" is wrong, false AND poor logic. All animals with fur are not cats.

Indeed. Black men sometimes kill people so why should black men have guns? See? Doesn't work there, does it? Being prejudiced against ALL mentally ill people because of the actions of a few = bigotry.

Bigotry.
"one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance". Or a group with a disease.

Prejudice
"an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics"

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #81)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 05:04 PM

82. Throwing out the bigotry and prejudiced card, how creative. Please lets just stick to facts.

 

Bigotry doesn't fly because i obviously don't hate my daughter and I'm not suggesting we be intolerant of anyone. I'm suggesting that because of the reasons I listed above, given by medical professionals, some mentally ill people don't need guns. Not all mentally ill people, the ones who suffer from the illness's I listed above.

Prejudice doesn't fly because I'm not being hostile. The "supposed" characteristics I listed are from the medical professionals, I didn't make them up.

You use the hypothetical situation, that black men sometimes kill, so black men shouldn't have guns. Well, cigarettes don't always cause cancer yet a law was passed that forces all smokers to pay higher taxes on cigarettes, in "order" to keep everyone safer from cancer. Not all people who have guns kill people, yet we're passing laws forcing all gun owners to register their guns to keep everyone safer. Not all mentally ill people will use a gun to mass kill, but past experience proves it does happen. My bipolar daughter has no business having a gun yet there's nothing stopping her from buying several! Why is this?

I ask you again. Why do you feel mentally ill people need guns?

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #82)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 05:16 PM

84. That is a bit better. "Some" do not. You espouse though EVERYONE who has had or has been

treated for ANY type of mental illness OR depression.

To quote you:
"Gun registration should include a check for any kind of psychiatric or depression drugs."

"Who would knowingly hand a depressed person a gun anyway"

"They could also make a law that you have to mark on any gun registration form that you've not taken certain meds"

"Any prescription written by a licensed Dr. for depression or any other mental health issue."

"A major U.S. government study released in 2006 showed that fewer than 50 percent of people become symptom-free on antidepressants, even after trying two different medications....So as you see, only 50 percent (of people with depression) get better with meds. "

"Meaning make a check mark on your gun application swearing you have not been treated for any of the above" including depression.

"it's documented fact that many people who are mentally ill are sometimes those who mass kill?"

"I'm not suggesting we be intolerant of anyone"


Yes. You are. Or you have been up until now.

I agree, "some mentally ill people don't need guns" but up until THIS post you have been writing every person who has ever been treated for depression.

"Why do you feel mentally ill people need guns? " WHERE have I written that? WHERE?

I am simply calling you on all those copy/pasted things you wrote. Now you say "some", which I agree with.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #84)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 05:39 PM

88. I listed the mental illness's I was talking about in these posts.

 

They could also make a law that you have to mark on any gun registration form that you've not taken certain meds, just like people do for glasses on a drivers license. If you lie there's a strict prison term if anyone were to find out you have a gun. That also protects your privacy because if you have taken any of the meds or have been treated at a facility, you can decline filling out the form for a weapon and no one is the wiser.

Postpartum depression has caused woman to murder their children. Bipolar disorder is a serious condition, mania causes sleeplessness, sometimes for days, along with hallucinations, psychosis, grandiose delusions, and/or paranoid rage. They do not need guns.

Dysthymia (depression) causes problems with concentration or making decisions almost every day, recurring thoughts of death or suicide, suicide plan, or suicide attempt - Again, no, they do not need guns.


I'd like to also add schizophrenia to this list.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #88)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 05:40 PM

89. What about all those other statements you made that I quoted?

"Gun registration should include a check for any kind of psychiatric or depression drugs."

"Who would knowingly hand a depressed person a gun anyway"

"They could also make a law that you have to mark on any gun registration form that you've not taken certain meds"

"Any prescription written by a licensed Dr. for depression or any other mental health issue."

"A major U.S. government study released in 2006 showed that fewer than 50 percent of people become symptom-free on antidepressants, even after trying two different medications....So as you see, only 50 percent (of people with depression) get better with meds. "

"Meaning make a check mark on your gun application swearing you have not been treated for any of the above" including depression.

"it's documented fact that many people who are mentally ill are sometimes those who mass kill?"

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #84)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 12:38 AM

110. Just FYI

He got tombstoned a couple of weeks ago for arguing this same point ad nauseum. I suspect he's here to stir shit on purpose, and not to engage in meaningful discussion.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #80)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 06:19 PM

92. I'll bite.

Ok, you are concerned about gun murders committed by people with mental illness. What percentage of fatal shootings are committed by people with a diagnosed mental illness? What percentage by undiagnosed? What percentage of those committed by those without a mental illness, but just are simply criminals, or intoxicated, or turn on a partner or family member during a vicious fight?

As to your second question - because the vast majority are never adjudicated legally incompetent or involuntarily committed. Those people, and I am one of them, have the exact same 2nd Amenment rights as you do. As it should be, there is still a presumption of innocence, and we don't recognize " pre-crime" a la 'Minority Report'.

See this link: this is the current law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System

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Response to Denninmi (Reply #92)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 07:05 PM

96. I agree with you 100 percent, but this precrime status of guilty until presumed innocent is

 

exactly what's happening to gun owners now. Most gun owners (especially those with a million round clips and black rifles) will never kill anyone. I think we'll all agree with that, as there's no denying that fact. Yet our answer is to deny them the right to have that kind of gun. There's also no denying that mental health has played a part in many of the mass shootings.

I don't have the answers, just opening this up for civil discussion. As I said, I have a daughter who's bipolar and in no way shape or form should she be sold any kind of gun, but she does have 2nd amendment rights and those should be guaranteed. Do I feel we should do away with the second amendment? No way but this is a subject that needs to be addressed while we're talking about gun legislation.

Any ideas?

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #96)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 10:00 PM

105. So, I guess one of two things strike me.

Gun owners feel, "persecuted", despite the fact there hadn't been a serious gun control law passed and upheld in years, and that the Suoreme Court significantly strengthened 2nd A rights a few years ago. Am I interpreting it correctly?

So, as a group and individually, they fear laws restricting their rights. So, the thought I hear coming fom the gun camp is "sacrifice someone else's rights to save ours" as if two wrongs make a right. That attitude is a classic example of scapegoating.

The other thought, I'm sorry about your daughter's circumstances. I am not your daughter. Please don't extrapolate your personal situation onto me. Everyone's condition, response to treatments, and prognosis is unique.

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Response to Denninmi (Reply #105)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 10:45 PM

107. I tried to be very clear I was using my daughter as an example, I'm sorry you felt I was using you

 

as comparison or like. I think some gun owners are starting to feel persecuted because of what they feel is the recent threat of taking their guns. I'm not one of them because of my daughter, but I know people who are.

I've not heard anyone yet say "sacrifice someone else's right to save ours" as, instead of us take them, but I have heard them say that while they're making new gun legislation, since they're going to do it anyway, that mental health issues should be brought to the table when applying for a permit.

As I said, I'm sorry that you are feeling persecuted. It sounds like you're doing a beautiful job of making it through a difficult time in your life and this gives me hope for my daughter and our family. My daughter is self medicating with street drugs because that's what she saw her biological parents do. This makes her illness even harder to treat, and in her situation, I wouldn't want her having access to a gun and going to school with other peoples children. This is I think what people are talking about when they mention mental health issues lately. Not that everyone who's mentally ill is stark raving mad and gunning for young children because they aren't. You just got caught in the crossfire because of the timing and truly for that I am sorry. I'm also sorry if my posts offended you. They weren't intended to.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #80)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 04:06 AM

115. There is a small segment of the mentally ill who have a propensity for violence or self-harm.

I would daresay that there are more people who shoot and kill others who are not suffering from a chronic mental illness. People who get drunk or have an anger management problem I worry much more about. An adult who is stabilized on medication such as a person with bipolar disorder or depression is no more likely to kill someone else than a person without an illness. I would not like to see someone with a mental disorder who is not stabilized or is not on medication with a gun. I also would not like to see someone with sociopathic personality disorder, paranoid schizophrenia, delusional disorders or psychosis with a gun.

Personally,if we could just throw all the guns into a big heap and burn them it would make me very happy. It should only be allowed for hunters and they should be required to have them locked up at a hunting lodge or something. No guns in people's home or out in the streets.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #57)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 12:18 AM

109. These posts of yours have an awfully familiar stench to them.

You're a bit atypical for a liberal, aren't you? Just saying.

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #109)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 12:53 AM

111. Stench? Really?

 

Did I break a real rule, or did I fall out of step from your idea of perfect group think? I was discussing an issue that's been mainstream for sometime now since the Colorado shooting spree.

From the Huffington Post

Aurora's Hard Truth: Mental Health Screening for Gun Buyers Is Nearly Non-Existent

If you learn only one new thing about America's gun laws after the gruesome mass shooting in Aurora, Colorado, learn this: Even when individuals do undergo a background check when buying a gun in this country, the screening for mental health history is cursory at best.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-horwitz/auroras-hard-truth-mental_b_1727695.html


Here's one straight from the lawmakers themselves

The bill, according to Linsky, will address who should be eligible to own a gun, gun storage, mental health screening for gun owners and an update to the definitions and types of firearms and ammunition permitted under the state's assault weapons ban. Linsky said he will also look to close loopholes in existing law, such as the one that allows purchases to be made at gun shows without background checks.
http://www.wgbhnews.org/post/lawmakers-gun-control-activists-mull-strategy-during-private-meeting

Let me guess, those links aren't good enough for you? If you don't want any kind of discussion or debate that might deviate from your lock step marching, why don't you just say so instead of insinuating that anyone who posts news that you don't want to read or discuss must be a troll.

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #111)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 12:59 AM

112. Oh, your links are fine.

I'm just finding your posting style to be very reminiscent, that's all.

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Response to Crunchy Frog (Reply #112)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 01:14 AM

113. What ever. I give up. It's not worth the fight.

 

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #32)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:09 AM

42. There are levels of mental illness and of depression. Having private health records for "any kind of

psych or depression drugs" be public is very wrong and will only lead to fewer people seeking any type of help.

"We need to better prioritize mental health issues and causes" yet you would like ANY type of mental health treatment to be public record?

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #42)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:15 AM

46. Please read reply 44. I do NOT condone any mental health issues being made public record.

 

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Response to DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav (Reply #46)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:25 AM

50. see post 87. nt

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:00 AM

33. My father;

A MSW worker for 30 years at the Chillocothe OH VA, one of the VA's mental hospitals had a favorite saying;

EVERYONE is mentally ill, until they seek and get treatment.

Strange thing is I've been a life long Clinically Depressed and Bipolar I patient. I have seen many different Psychiatrists, maybe 20 (I move a lot) over the years. I have had 4 mental health stays.

All this and he refused to believe I was mentally ill up to the day he died.

Then again, bipolar is 80% hereditary and I didn't get it from my mom's side.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:00 AM

34. I certainly do not believe that

your mental state and experiences diminish you as a human being.

The question I have, and forgive me if you are offended by this, does your situation mean you cannot possess firearms? The topic of mental health and gun ownership has recently been in the news. I don't know what the laws are or what they should be. I understand there are serious privacy issues to consider as well.

I believe you have overcome many obstacles to be a productive member of society. Your mother is lucky to have you.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:06 AM

36. Well spoken, sir.

I have a number of people in my life who have mental issues. If you had seen me about 4 weeks ago, as my long term marriage was disintegrating, I looked like I had mental issues. I have a childhood that just screams borderline and I know I had bigger issues in my 20s than I do now.

I recognize that mental issues and psychopathy are different critters. I couldn't love my family members if I didn't.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:23 AM

37. Thanks for posting this. You are not alone.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:26 AM

38. I am not the Doc

but here is what I know. I know that most mental illness's go on and on undiagnosed-, and that brings on a very different percentage about those numbers out there.

You are of the few lucky one's who knew well enough to seek help.
Having done that you can only become a stronger better wiser person for it.
The odds are with you now more than ever.

If you were to ask what is sane -you would be hard pressed to get an answer .
Think about it, is the republican controlled congress sane ? Is the way they vote and the things they say and do normal or perfectly sane ?

Clearly you see there are plenty of abnormalities in our congress ,in fact it is dysfunctional isn't it? Isn't that insane ? Do those people have the presence of mind to seek help ?Do those people that vote them in ? Well now, you know that answer just the same as I do.

Good luck-it didn't get you, you can only get stronger by your experience.Stronger is better.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:37 AM

39. K&R.

Thanks for this.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:39 AM

40. PTSD instead of BiPolar? Maybe both or neither.

Remember, Psychological diagnosis are more guidelines then deadlines, i.e. guides to treatment that has worked in people with similar symptoms. This is the difference between Psychological diagnoses and other medical diagnoses. A doctor see a broken bone, he does want is needed on a broken bone. If we viewed the broken bone as medical providers HAVE TO view psychological problems, it would be like the Doctor seeing you have pain, swelling, but unable to determined what is causing the pain, the swelling or the lose of control of the rest of the arm and hand. The Doctor then makes an educated guess what is the problem and what works in previous cases.

I do NOT want to attack psychiatrists, I work with them and deal with their reports all the time. I am trying to describe the problems they are facing when trying to diagnosis people. They tend to be more right then wrong, but given they are unable to actual examine the Neurones in your brain, they are like my hypothetical doctor who can not see the broken arm.

Thus it is possible that you have both PTSD and Bi-Polar (Use to be called Manic-Depression) and neither. On the other hand, the diagnosis gives the Psychiatrist a guideline on your treatment. Thus in many ways what is your exact diagnosis can be unimportant, the key is the treatment and how your problems affect your day to day living.

What happened to you in the past (especially in your youth) can be a very large factor in your mental condition. What treatment you had in the past helps the Psychiatrist understand how to better treat you. Thus telling the Psychiatrist your past treatment is important.

I do a lot of Social Security Disability work, understanding psychological background of my clients is often important. Thus I have had to learn a lot about such treatment over the last 25 years (and this given my undergraduate degree is in accounting). I do NOT have the educational background, but I do have the experience to understand the reports I have to work with in such cases. That background has given me faith in such reports. I also understand diagnosis change over time, as the Psychiatrist get a better handle on your problems.

Thus you may have PTSD and Bi-polar, you may have some combination of both with symptoms of neither. Do Not listen to people on the net in regards to your condition, go with your treating medical providers (including your therapists). Such providers have the education, and experience to help you deal with your problems, follow they advice.

At the same time do NOT put much weight on any change in the actual diagnosis of your condition. This happens all the time, it is more a result of getting a better fell of your condition then a mistake.

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Response to happyslug (Reply #40)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 04:50 AM

62. doctors and psychaitrists are both doing the same thing

"A doctor see a broken bone, he does want is needed on a broken bone. If we viewed the broken bone as medical providers HAVE TO view psychological problems, it would be like the Doctor seeing you have pain, swelling, but unable to determined what is causing the pain, the swelling or the lose of control of the rest of the arm and hand. The Doctor then makes an educated guess what is the problem and what works in previous cases. "

This described the same process twice, a doctor sees you, looks at what's wrong, asks questions, then makes an educated guess as to what is wrong. A broken bone is a bad example for this, try a cold, or flu, or any number of conditions that are hard to pin down. Watch the TV show House, the whole show is about undiagnosible medical conditions.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:09 AM

43. People who bravely confront what's in their mind are courageous

i'm glad you shared.

so many deal with almost overwhelming things in their minds and do so without help.

everyone should feel like they can get help for what troubles them.

and when everyone sees that it's as human as a broken leg or a ankle sprain to have depression, anxiety and what-not and to know that there are things and people that can help us.

we will all be better for it.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)


Response to John.Mekki (Reply #45)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:29 AM

52. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:22 AM

48. Thanks for doing this, Denni.

I think it's really important.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:28 AM

51. No, Den, it enhances you as a human being.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:31 AM

53. ofcourse not

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:51 AM

54. No! And its more important to speak out (as you have) than ever.

Because people who suffer from, or have suffered from mental illness are everyday people.

This whole debate about mental illness and rights: What does it look like in human terms? Who is mentally ill?

Consider this guy: He served honorably in Afghanistan, but after an explosion where he saw his friend killed, had some issues with PTSD, a mental illness invoked by traumatic events. Later as a veteran with the illness he felt alone, and it all became too much to take. He felt like ending it all. But instead, he realized he needed help. He checked in his guns with a responsible party and sought treatment for his suicidal depression. He made a decision about taking meds, went to group, met people who were liked him, got hugs from supportive people, worked his way through the pain, until life became something he could face. He left treatment and reclaimed his weapons a wiser and stronger person, though still he had to manage symptoms of his PTSD.

That's a portrait of a person who suffers from mental illness, at one point had a mental crisis where he needed to give up his guns, but is in every sense of the word an American hero.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 02:22 AM

55. What I've learned from my own experience with mental illness is that people are extremely afraid

 

about anything different, especially something which might bring them harm. Ye olde fight or flight mechanism, and they don't even know they're coming from the hindbrain (yet when I see it start in someone, I can tell). And frightened people do ugly, destructive things imagining themselves as being fully justified.

I see people who do not ask and take no time to understand, making decisions for others. THAT is sick behaviour, despite any level of justification proferred. Some people still beat up homosexuals and people of color, simply for what they are, and feel themselves fully justified. This thankfully is changing.

For myself, I'm very weird and a tad creative, sometimes stepping into character(s) for communicative purposes (juxtaposition, metaphor, etc.) I grew up with people not being comfortable about that difference alone, so keep adding things on top of it and they get worse.

My goal is to find a nice place where I won't have to come into much personal contact with others aside from 12-Step meetings, which I need and love. For any to make decisions regarding my personal freedom, regardless of their conclusions and unquestioning judgement of me, would be sickness in the genuine definition of the word. To destroy personal freedom is not far from murder...both eliminate personal choice and possibility, potential, quality of living and life.

Myself, I'm broken and still in need of learning in several areas, am happy to simply stay away from any who are unhappy about me (if they'd actually express such instead of behind my back), and wish to continue my course of recovery. Don't force me. Leave me alone. Don't judge me. You are not qualified (and doctors really don't ask or care to learn; they simply throw around drugs. You were lucky, Dennis, in finding compassionate care. It is most definitely not always like that.) I could judge any in return and cause displeasure, trust me. You are not perfect so leave me alone. Thank you!

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 02:24 AM

56. Not one bit my friend.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 02:36 AM

58. No.

The sad diff between a county mental hospital and a private mental hospital:

The county mental hospital has one hour a week of playing Pictionary as therapy, if you have no alcohol or drug addictions. No group therapy, no individual, no nothing. Just a warehouse for people who are severely ill and need thorazine. A run of the mill depressed person is warehoused for 2 weeks and given an antidepressant and discharged.

A person who has health insurance and goes to a private mental hospital gets group therapy, individual therapy and a lot of intensive work.

I have known people in these 2 different situations. Same city.





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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 03:32 AM

59. Great post.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 03:48 AM

60. dont feel to alone

I did 3 weeks once, 3 one week stays, a couple of 2-3 day stays.
Until you find a good mix of meds it seems you float like this.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 07:05 AM

63. As a fellow sufferer from bipolar condition I see your point and agree with much of what you say

But did you really have to take a backhanded swipe at those who do not meet your standard of sartorial perfection?

You're not like those *other* crazy people, you know the ones who don't care so much about their presentation, they are a danger and should be avoided.

No you didn't say that and I don't think you actually meant to imply it but your little brag about how nice you look sure set me back a bit. I was right with you and enjoying your post until I got to that part.

I have other priorities than spending ten minutes picking out just the right tie, indeed I haven't even owned a tie in about ten years now but yeah, I hold doors for others and although I'm too ADD to be good at doing the card thing I'm a generous person who would give you the shirt off my back if you needed it. But you probably wouldn't want it because it's not adequately starched.

If you met them on the street and had no clue who they were, which of these people would you be more likely to wonder about their mental state?

This one?



Or this one?



At the moment I look a great deal more like Einstein than I do Rmoney although I do clean up fairly well when I care enough to do so.

Don't judge the book by the cover.










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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #63)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 07:29 AM

64. Thank you



I have lived with PTSD for years. Yes, it makes life very difficult.

Sometimes I get severely depressed, suffer agoraphobia, have trouble sleeping, eating, suffer horrible nightmares and flashbacks...blah blah blah.

Health care HAHAHA!!!!! I have none. I can't afford medication, counseling or any of the wonderful support available in First World Nations, because I live in a backwards country that doesn't care if all citizens have health care, including mental health care.

But thankfully, I live in a poor community where we do not diminish one another based on appearance, because there are days I don't care how I look, I am doing good just to get out of the house.

I know Denninmi probably did not mean to sound judgmental there, but those words made me feel......a little diminished as a human, frankly. Everybody is fighting their own battles. We're all probably "mentally ill" to some degree.

You can't tell who is suffering and who is not by appearance, and it hurts to know so many Americans are so caught up in "image" they don't see the person inside the clothes and the hairdo.

Everything else in the OP I can agree with, but the truth is, we diminish one another over all sorts of things: gender, race, sexual orientation, socioeconomic level, and whether or not we're dressed "appropriately" or "fashionably."

Some day, maybe people will just start caring about each other regardless.

I'm glad I live in a place where people accept me as I am.





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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #64)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 10:53 AM

67. I'm sorry, I apologize to both of you if I offended.

It certainly wasn't intentional. I was thinking about it from a slightly different perspective, that of the stereotype of the untreated, mentally ill homeless man who has been completely cut loose by the system with absolutely no help.

While many of the homeless have mental health issues, not all, and hygiene/appearance, even adequate clothing to protect from the elements is an issue for them, that certainly doesn't mean the vast majority of those with MH issues have such problems. I do understand that for some, it is an issue, a very real and painful one.

That is something which really frightened me when this happened last summer. I have mentioned in other posts that I have to drive by a men's shelter on my way home each week from my therapist's office, and I had to drive by it on that fateful August day coming home from the psychiatrist. I "saw myself" being there in a few years. I know that was an irrational fear, but it still really bothered me.

So, my comments weren't really meant to imply or say that appearance is everything, it is superficial in many ways. I was just trying to let "average people" know that this stereotype isn't true in the majority of cases.

I didn't mean to offend, please accept my apologies.

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Response to Denninmi (Reply #67)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 03:19 PM

78. No apology necessary, I don't think you were being deliberately malicious

I probably came across a bit more harshly than I really intended. Most of the time when I'm doing a reactive negative type post I'll let it sit for a while and then reread it, editing if I feel I went too far and I failed to do that this time and shot from the hip so to speak.

We're cool.



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Response to Denninmi (Reply #67)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 02:56 AM

114. You are fine, Denninmi



You have always been so kind on this site, I can't imagine you said it in any way to diminish anyone or to offend.

We all have our own little "triggers" and I guess we were riffing off that, but I figured you were just illustrating that no one who saw you might guess the inner struggles and turmoil you endure.

I love to see smartly dressed people, and I love to sometimes be smartly dressed, though you wouldn't guess it from seeing me most days. lol For you, I think the attention to appearance is necessary for your job, but also is one way to positively prepare yourself for your day in a way YOU can control.

That sense of personal control is very important when things seem to spiraling out of control. Our personal routines and "rituals" are a vital way to feel connected and in charge of one aspect of our life and work. I applaud you for taking pride in your appearance when I'm sure some days you'd rather stay in bed.


But thank you for your very thoughtful and heartfelt response. I hope we didn't detract from the message of your thread which was: We are all of value, and none of us should be made to feel less worthy becaue of a diagnosis.




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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 07:38 AM

65. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.

You sound much healthier (and nicer) than most people I know. I have struggled with my own mental health issues and know what it is like to have been to hell and back. It makes us stronger than a lot of people who have never had to struggle at all.

I wish you all the best and continuing health and happiness.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 07:44 AM

66. No it does not diminish you as a human being

 

Mental hygiene is what the military calls it and anyone can get into a state of life, where they need to take a nice shower and wash some of the stress off

I have a lot of buddies who have done that and 10 years later, you can't find a trace of the things they have seen and experienced. Do what you need to do in order to keep your head straight and have a good life and don't worry about anything that someone else think's they know about you.


John

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:41 PM

68. Mental illlness is a legitimate part of the gun control issue

 

We do need to be careful on how regulations are written and applied, but keeping guns out of the hands of some based on their condition is good policy.

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Response to michigandem58 (Reply #68)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:01 PM

70. Yes, but ...

"Some" - yes. Many or most, probably not.

I don't think our current standards are unreasonable - lack of mental competency as adjudicated by a court or involuntary commitment. I think it's more a question of poor implementation, poor record keeping, and loopholes.

That being said, God forgive me for turning my own thread where I said I wouldn't go, but...

I think I already pointed out previously that I am completely entitled to purchase if I choose to. I haven't remotely come close to meeting either of the above tests for a "prohibited person."

The way I see it, my medical privacy should remain 100%, as it is now under HIPPA. if I choose to share it, that is my business, but even then, if public knowledge, authorities have no right to use that information. Nor should they unless a court order allows them to.

You can rest easy, MIDem58, I still want that iPhone a lot more than I would ever want a gun.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:55 PM

72. Most excellent post

Very clear and well written, brother. Thanks for sharing. Makes me love you all the more.

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Response to libodem (Reply #72)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 02:57 PM

74. I kinda owed it to a few people on the other side.

But I'm sure you know that story.

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Response to Denninmi (Reply #74)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 03:01 PM

75. NPR

In my area has been running mental health topics this week end. Been interesting listening.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 03:26 PM

79. diminish you?hell..I wish we all had your strength

you did right and I'm happy it seems to have helped.You are stronger than you know

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 07:13 PM

97. No, but the NRA would like to keep track of you


because, God knows, you might give them a bad name if you own a gun.

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Response to Tab (Reply #97)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 10:04 PM

106. Well, IMHO, mostly because they are unwilling to admit their own culpability

So are looking for a convenient scapegoat.

If I were a spiteful guy, all of this would be enough to make me go out and buy one just to thumb their nose in it, and then maybe harass them with the paradox.

But frankly, I still want the iPhone more.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 08:33 PM

101. One of the best posts ever on DU, in my h.o.

Thank you very much for this, Denninmi.

Very honest and captivating.

I think this post will help many many people.

All the best to you.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 09:11 PM

102. Fantastic piece, thank you!

Hits the nail on the head.

I'm sure that I'll be showing this to others.

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 09:26 PM

103. I am a million dollar Therapy job

dear D, I am presently in my 60's and was born into a very complex childhood, that lead to my spending years in various therapies, healing modalities - I often receive appreciation for my wisdom and those who have some sense of my history are often amazed that I have "turned" out so well - and I just laugh ( now ) and say "I am a million dollar therapy job" I have been blessed with amazing healers and teachers, if very imperfect parents and early life circumstances - be glad that you are well now and had the courage to do what you needed to do -

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 09:32 PM

104. Outstanding Post..Thank You..We are all Imperfect.I agree......K and R..

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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 11:12 PM

108. Oh Denninmi, you have inspired me these past few weeks.

Your courage in laying out your story for everyone. Your vulnerability. And then the Newtown shooting where everyone was saying Adam Lanza must be "crazy" (thus implying that anyone with a mental illness was suspect at exactly the time you were putting yourself out there. So difficult.)....

I hope your journey to full health is blessed. Please know you have an entire community of people who love, support and understand. Your posts continue to inspire and help so many.

Keep up the good work. Regardless of your sartorial excellence (or lack thereof! LOL), you are making a difference.




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Response to Denninmi (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 04:15 AM

117. Who is the most likely to kill someone with a gun. Men/boys from age 16-40 so THEY shouldn't

be allowed to be near guns.

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