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Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:44 PM

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This message was self-deleted by its author (FirstLight) on Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:28 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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Reply This message was self-deleted by its author (Original post)
FirstLight Jan 2013 OP
Freddie Stubbs Jan 2013 #1
cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #2
LineLineLineReply !
csziggy Jan 2013 #34
Drahthaardogs Jan 2013 #5
Pab Sungenis Jan 2013 #53
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #81
FarCenter Jan 2013 #116
ip5683 Jan 2013 #3
The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2013 #11
SidDithers Jan 2013 #4
zappaman Jan 2013 #6
FSogol Jan 2013 #10
SidDithers Jan 2013 #12
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #18
GoCubsGo Jan 2013 #7
X_Digger Jan 2013 #20
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #92
The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2013 #8
zappaman Jan 2013 #9
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #14
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #13
hobbit709 Jan 2013 #15
X_Digger Jan 2013 #23
hobbit709 Jan 2013 #25
X_Digger Jan 2013 #29
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #28
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #67
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #16
FirstLight Jan 2013 #17
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #19
zappaman Jan 2013 #21
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #26
loli phabay Jan 2013 #60
CreekDog Jan 2013 #69
The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2013 #31
Scootaloo Jan 2013 #36
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #22
SidDithers Jan 2013 #24
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #30
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #89
SidDithers Jan 2013 #93
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #94
SidDithers Jan 2013 #96
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #108
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #27
Violet_Crumble Jan 2013 #35
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #37
Violet_Crumble Jan 2013 #45
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #46
TheMadMonk Jan 2013 #79
intaglio Jan 2013 #32
The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2013 #33
intaglio Jan 2013 #38
The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2013 #42
SidDithers Jan 2013 #54
FirstLight Jan 2013 #39
zappaman Jan 2013 #41
FirstLight Jan 2013 #48
zappaman Jan 2013 #49
FirstLight Jan 2013 #51
NickB79 Jan 2013 #58
jberryhill Jan 2013 #103
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #117
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #47
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #68
TheMadMonk Jan 2013 #88
matt819 Jan 2013 #40
FirstLight Jan 2013 #50
zappaman Jan 2013 #56
Why Syzygy Jan 2013 #43
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #44
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #114
eShirl Jan 2013 #52
zappaman Jan 2013 #55
hobbit709 Jan 2013 #57
Pat Cee Jan 2013 #59
zappaman Jan 2013 #61
eShirl Jan 2013 #63
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #66
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #85
ms.airomatic Jan 2013 #90
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #91
Tumbulu Jan 2013 #97
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2013 #62
arcane1 Jan 2013 #64
idwiyo Jan 2013 #65
SidDithers Jan 2013 #70
idwiyo Jan 2013 #73
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #119
ms.airomatic Jan 2013 #71
SidDithers Jan 2013 #72
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #110
idwiyo Jan 2013 #74
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #118
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #87
Tumbulu Jan 2013 #98
jberryhill Jan 2013 #105
kimmerspixelated Jan 2013 #75
The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2013 #77
ms.airomatic Jan 2013 #86
Tumbulu Jan 2013 #102
Tumbulu Jan 2013 #99
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #112
RedCappedBandit Jan 2013 #76
The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2013 #78
ms.airomatic Jan 2013 #84
kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #80
mrs_p Jan 2013 #83
Warpy Jan 2013 #107
Starry Messenger Jan 2013 #115
mrs_p Jan 2013 #82
GoneOffShore Jan 2013 #95
Godhumor Jan 2013 #100
eShirl Jan 2013 #101
Godhumor Jan 2013 #106
Warpy Jan 2013 #104
slackmaster Jan 2013 #109
backscatter712 Jan 2013 #111
Jim Lane Jan 2013 #113

Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:47 PM

1. Why do people hate science?

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Response to Freddie Stubbs (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:48 PM

2. Because science says they're going to die

Science has nothing to offer except true statements about reality so its likability is limited by the limited popularity of reality.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:21 PM

34. !

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Response to Freddie Stubbs (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:55 PM

5. Calling Homeopathic medicine science is like calling

Taco Bell Mexican food.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:45 PM

53. Actually, that's closer to the truth.

 

Homeopathy is like calling Vitamin Water Mexican food.

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Response to Freddie Stubbs (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:31 PM

81. Because they are STUPID JACKASSES.

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Response to Freddie Stubbs (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:20 AM

116. They just hate Avogadro

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:52 PM

3. Get a grip

 

No medical association can outlaw over-the-counter remedies.

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Response to ip5683 (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:03 PM

11. Of course not. And some alternative medicine bears consideration.

But homeopathy is pure bullshit.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:54 PM

4. mercola again...

but apparently batshit crazy woo is OK in GD.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:56 PM

6. Yup

bullshit and crazy seems to be just fine in GD...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022082638

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:01 PM

10. I think it National Woo Day in GD.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:03 PM

12. Yup...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:08 PM

18. Mercola is a horrible source

And should be a banned source for DU.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:56 PM

7. Mercola...It figures.

Did you ever stop to think that the AVMA is trying to stop people who don't no shit about treating sick animals from treating sick animals with stuff that may hurt them more than help them?

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:10 PM

20. Do harm, or deny *actual* treatment.

Yes, giving your pet water is generally good, but it's no substitute for *actual* treatment.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:00 PM

92. There's the harm.

Last edited Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:43 AM - Edit history (2)

My mom told me about one of her friends - she was diagnosed with cancer, got scared of the conventional treatments like chemotherapy, and went to a homeopath.

For months, she took expensive sugar pills, and drank expensive vials of water. Unfortunately, placebos don't work on cancer, and she died.

And it was a horrible, tragic death, and a senseless and possibly preventable death. Because some snake-oil salesman preyed upon this woman's fear, pulled her away from the science-based treatments that could have saved her, or eased her suffering, or prolonged her life or maybe given her a few more good years of life; and instead fleeced her of her money by selling her sugar pills.

So yes, I'm going to speak loudly about homeopathy, and give it the contempt it deserves!

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:58 PM

8. If I were to make that call,

it would be to urge AVMA to please keep unscientific quackish woo away from defenseless animals who are stuck with whatever nonsense their ignorant owners want to inflict on them. Homeopathy is basically holy water without the sign of the cross, and about as effective. Ptui on Mercola, that quack.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:58 PM

9. +1 n/t

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:04 PM

14. +1

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:04 PM

13. Good -- hope they vote to ban the woo

Homeopathy is not the same as legit home remedies (for either people or pets). It has zero basis in science.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:07 PM

15. Wasn't one woo thread on this two too many?

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #15)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:12 PM

23. woo squared.. twice as effective. n/t

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #23)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:13 PM

25. More like inverse squared

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:14 PM

29. If you thump it, it's woo infinity! n/t

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #23)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:14 PM

28. Woo diluted

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #28)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:44 PM

67. No, you need STRONGER woo.

 

Add water to your diluted woo, shake it up, then add some more water!

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:07 PM

16. I'll call them and tell them to vote FOR the ban.

Because homeopathy is woo-woo horseshit.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:07 PM

17. okay...

well there are some here who actually use alternative medicines, and I thought this info would be of importance. Your heckling just keeps the thread kicked, so thanks....

and as for calling me WooWoo....thanks!

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:09 PM

19. Except homeopathy isn't alernative medicine

It's water.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:11 PM

21. Technically, it's water...

mixed with bullshit.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:13 PM

26. I apologize for my mistake

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Response to zappaman (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:48 PM

60. is it not essence of bullshit

 

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Response to zappaman (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:51 PM

69. Nope, if it were, then it might actually do something

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:16 PM

31. Homeopathy isn't alternative medicine; it's pure quackery.

Alternative medicine includes things like Chinese or other herbal medicines, many of which are known to be effective for some ailments, or acupuncture, which can work (I know; I've tried it). Acupuncture has been used on animals to good effect. But homeopathy is nothing more than water that is claimed to have a "memory."

Homeopathic remedies are prepared by repeatedly diluting a chosen substance in alcohol or distilled water, followed by forceful striking on an elastic body, called succussion. Each dilution followed by succussion is said to increase the remedy's potency. Dilution usually continues well past the point where none of the original substance remains. Homeopaths select remedies by consulting reference books known as repertories, considering the totality of the patient's symptoms as well as the patient's personal traits, physical and psychological state, and life history.

The low concentrations of homeopathic remedies, often lacking even a single molecule of the diluted substance, lead to an objection that has dogged homeopathy since the 19th century: how, then, can the substance have any effect? Modern advocates of homeopathy have suggested that "water has a memory"—that during mixing and succussion, the substance leaves an enduring effect on the water, perhaps a "vibration", and this produces an effect on the patient. However, nothing like water memory has ever been found in chemistry or physics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

If that doesn't sound like pure hokum, I don't know what does.

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:25 PM

36. And there are some here who want to feed their cats a vegan diet

Posting on DU is no guarantee of being an intelligent person. Particularly where pets are concerned, it seems.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:11 PM

22. What homeopathy is, for thsoe who don't know

From Wikipedia:

Homeopathic remedies are prepared by repeatedly diluting a chosen substance in alcohol or distilled water, followed by forceful striking on an elastic body, called succussion. Each dilution followed by succussion is said to increase the remedy's potency. Dilution usually continues well past the point where none of the original substance remains. Homeopaths select remedies by consulting reference books known as repertories, considering the totality of the patient's symptoms as well as the patient's personal traits, physical and psychological state, and life history.

The low concentrations of homeopathic remedies, often lacking even a single molecule of the diluted substance, lead to an objection that has dogged homeopathy since the 19th century: how, then, can the substance have any effect? Modern advocates of homeopathy have suggested that "water has a memory"—that during mixing and succussion, the substance leaves an enduring effect on the water, perhaps a "vibration", and this produces an effect on the patient. However, nothing like water memory has ever been found in chemistry or physics. Pharmacological research has found, contrary to homeopathy, that stronger effects of an active ingredient come from higher doses, not lower doses.

Homeopathic remedies have been the subject of numerous clinical trials, which test the possibility that they may be effective through some mechanism unknown to science. Taken together, these trials showed at best no effect beyond placebo, at worst that homeopathy could be actively harmful. Although some trials produced positive results, systematic reviews revealed that this was because of chance, flawed research methods, and reporting bias. The proposed mechanisms for homeopathy are precluded by the laws of physics from having any effect. Patients who choose to use homeopathy rather than evidence based medicine risk missing timely diagnosis and effective treatment of serious conditions. The regulation and prevalence of homeopathy vary greatly from country to country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy


******************************************

ie woo

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:13 PM

24. And no homeopathy woo thread is complete without Mitchell and Webb...



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:15 PM

30. hehehe

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:41 PM

89. Well played! I'll see you and raise you an Amazing Randi!

This video is about fifteen minutes, but it explains how homeopathy really works (or fails to work) mercilessly.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #89)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:01 PM

93. Is that the homeopathic suicide?...

Don't have time to watch it right now.

Marking for tomorrow.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #93)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:02 PM

94. No, it's Randi explaining in hilarious detail how homeopathy works. n/t

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #94)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:07 PM

96. Ok will watch tomorrow...

This is the one I was thinking of:



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #96)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:49 PM

108. Awesome! n/t

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:14 PM

27. Yup

 

woo

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:23 PM

35. So my health fund covers woo treatment, and my government regulates woo?

It's covered under 'alternative treatments', and while I think that this like most alternative treatments is full of bullshit and placebo, I don't get why Americans focus on one over all else. I think it's a waste of money, but don't have a problem with others using it as long as they do it in conjunction with conventional medical treatments. My GP (that's General Practitioner) suggested I give it a try because medication I'm already on to prevent stroke means I can't take hayfever medication and I get severe hayfever. But he's never suggested it for anything else and if he suggested it as a possible replacement treatment for my high blood pressure, I'd walk out and find another doctor. It's when it's promoted as being a replacement to conventional treatment where it's a massive problem.

Anyway, here's the info from my health fund (one of the major health funds in Australia) on what it covers as Extras cover on policies:

Homeopathy


Description


Homeopathy is a system of medicine based on the principle that 'like cures like'. It is a system for treating disease that is based on the administration of minute doses of remedies that in large amounts produce symptoms in healthy people similar to those of the disease itself. This means that the homeopathic medicine deliberately mimics or provokes the symptoms of a persons’ disease in order to strengthen their body’s ability to heal itself.

The remedies are made from plants, minerals, animals and chemicals. They are prepared according to strict guidelines set out in international pharmacopoeias and, in Australia, are under the control of the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA).

You may have seen or heard of "Rescue Remedy", which is an example of a homeopathic remedy.

Treatment


Homeopathic consultations may take up to an hour, however some may only take 15-30 minutes. Information relating to current symptoms and past medical history will be required. Questions about your lifestyle, family, work and stressors may be asked, as well as your diet and sleep patterns.

Physical examinations may be required according to the particular complaint.

A single dose or repeated doses of remedies may be given. Your practitioner will advise the dose and frequency to take them, and will usually recommend a visit at the end of the course to assess its effectiveness. Where illness has developed over a long time, several successive remedies may be needed during the course of weeks, months or years.

Although practitioners advise that remedies can be taken in conjunction with conventional medications, it is always advisable to notify both your homeopath and your doctor of any medicines or remedies you are taking.

Conditions


As homeopathy is a holistic system that aims to strengthen the mind and body against disease, it can be used to help treat a wide array of common and chronic ailments. Homeopaths may be sought for seasonal conditions such as colds, flu and hay-fever as well as a wide range of illnesses including allergies, asthma, eczema, stress, period pains and endometriosis, headaches and respiratory infections. Advocates also claim homeopathy can assist in breaking the negative emotional patterns believed to be the underlying causes of some physical conditions.

This information is a general description only. Call 13 14 63 to check if your nib Health Cover includes homeopathy and the specific treatments nib will pay a benefit for under this service. Please note that if your cover includes this service, nib will only provide benefits for the consultation only. No benefit is payable for any remedies.

nib will only pay benefits for services supplied by nib recognised providers, so make sure that your practitioner is both properly qualified and recognised by nib (ask the service provider or contact nib if you are unsure).

Want to know more about homeopathy? Here's a place to start:

Australian Homeopathic Association


http://www.nib.com.au/home/newtonib/help/pages/extrasglossary.aspx?filter=FtoJ

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:27 PM

37. Then yes, it does cover and fund woo

I am rather shocked it does, too.

It is NOT a holistic system at all. It is water, or whatever the base is, and nothing else. Nothing. It is woo.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:33 PM

45. But this is a major health fund, not some small alternative type thing...

I'm pretty sure if I looked at the other major Australian health funds, they'll all have very similar things. And I don't think any of them, nor the TGA (Therapuetic Goods Association) which is our official place where drugs and shit have to be approved for use in Australia, are the sort of organisations that would peddle woo. I kind of suspect the difference in attitude between the countries has something to do with the aggressive attitude of the pharmaceutical companies in the US that doesn't happen here...

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #45)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:36 PM

46. I undeerstand, but hemoepathy is BS Woo

It is water. Literally. Water that is "vibrated."

It isn't about attitudes, it is about science. We are discussing home remedies or holistic approaches, we are talking about WATER.

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Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #45)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:28 PM

79. You might want to look again. TGA can't restrict sale...

 

...of what is essentially water. HOWEVER, it most certainly restricts and forbids claims of medical efficacy.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:18 PM

32. Well I suppose that homeopathic medications are in accord with Hippocrates

"first do no harm" but the problem is that minuscule amounts of water that once had a passing acquaintance with something that homeopaths think cause similar symptoms to the illness being treated will do no good. All they offer is false hope.

Every single double blind test of homeopathic medicines shows they are no better than chance at affecting illness. Please do not regale us with stories about how some relative was cured, if you do that then why not rely on prayer to do the healing? Prayer has record just as impressive as homeopathy.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #32)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:20 PM

33. It's just holy water without the holy part.

At least holy water allegedly has traces of Jesus. Homeopathic water just has traces of hydrogen and oxygen. And bullshit.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #33)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:28 PM

38. Ah but has the Holy water undergone succussion?

Striking something 10 times on an elastic body has wondrous effects.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:32 PM

42. Better check with the Pope.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #42)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:48 PM

54. Is he an elastic body?...nt

Sid

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:29 PM

39. I was just making this info available

no need to pile on calling bullshit. There ARE plenty of folks who use and agree with these remedies...so I was passing on information for them to act on.

While there may be evidence to the contrary, there are other remedies out there that work for some, who may not be able to handle other medicines. ...and yes, i do have plenty of anecdotal stories, but it's not worth relating to you here. I don't need your approval to know what works for me and those I know. It's not all about homeopathy, it's herbal and alternative therapies as well...take ONE away and we lose access to MANY.

Now if you please, take your negativity and bashing elsewhere...
If you have nothing constructive to contribute, why bother? You think your attitude and links will change minds?

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:31 PM

41. "You think your attitude and links will change minds?"

Hopefully, if anyone is dumb enough to believe in this crap, yes.
"While there may be evidence to the contrary"---TRANSLATION' "I ignore science."

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Response to zappaman (Reply #41)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:40 PM

48. no...i have a broader view of science than most

...and just because something isn't mainstream doesn't mean it's bullshit.

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #48)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:42 PM

49. "and just because something isn't mainstream doesn't mean it's bullshit."

True.
The fact that it is bullshit is what makes it bullshit.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #49)


Response to FirstLight (Reply #48)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:34 PM

58. A broader view of science than most?

Yeah, in the same way the guys from "Ancient Aliens" on A&E have a broader view of science than most archeologists when they say aliens built the Pyramids.

Carry on.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #58)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:37 PM

103. But if aliens used the Internet, some might use DU...

And if they did, would they be trolls?

Some researchers say, "Yes".

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #58)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:25 AM

117. This guy's got a broad view...

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:37 PM

47. People think HIV dosn't cause AIDS -- like your source link

People wear copper bracelets, think Blacks are less intelligent... so?

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:45 PM

68. See post 87. eom

 

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:41 PM

88. I got plenty of anecdotal stories too.

 

One ran straight into the side of a moving vehicle. TWICE. Because his mother insisted on treating cerebal palsy with homeopathy and excuses.

Scientific fact is not a matter for vote or lobbying. It is or it isn't. Wishful thinking has no place in scientific debate. Evidence not second hand anecdote is the basis of science.

This law does nothing to stop stupid pet owners killing their animals with wishful thinking. What it stops is purveyors of less than snake oil (which at least gave you nice soft skin) preying on ignorance.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:30 PM

40. The issue goes beyond homeopathy

Hey, FirstLight, bet you didn't expect the outrage from the anti-homeopathy crowd.

I'm not going to touch the issue of the homeopathy.

First of all, this move will not affect anything, anyone, anywhere. Most vets operate conventional practices, and won't even consider homeopathic remedies. And for vets who do recommend homeopathic remedies - there's one in my town - you can just head on over to the nearest health food store or online and buy what's recommended. I suppose the vets who do believe in these remedies are free to offer them directly, though it may affect their membership in this group, or even their certification as vets. That'll be their decision.

So, take a deep breath. You won't be affected by this.

The larger issue, from my perspective, is vets offering conventional medication at all. I usually take what's recommended, pay the price, and move on. In fact, I'm heading over the vet right now for stuff for my 18-year-old dog. But I suspect that if I were to check online, I'd find the prices were cheaper. When I suggested this once to my vet, she said that "you can't really be sure about the legitimacy of these drugs or their sell-by dates." Well, gosh, I said, I'm glad you mentioned that. Frankly, that's a lot easier than making a fuss and risking a decade-long relationship with this practice with almost a dozen creatures. But I know - I just know - that I'm paying more than I should if I could buy online or, for that matter, from the local CVS.

In other words, this is nothing more than a play to protect its members' bottom lines. Sure, there may be some legitimate concerns about homeopathic or other alternative remedies, but this is, above all, about money.

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Response to matt819 (Reply #40)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:44 PM

50. well thanks for at least being honest and not an asshole

i did not expect a shitstorm by posting this. Just know that there are folks out there who would give a hoot and want to take action.
But then the haters show up and flame the crap out of me.

You are most likely correct about the bottom line and the vets who will or will not adhere to the guidelines....I just hate to see any kind of big pharma or medical group try to get 'handy' with alternative therapies. because they are more about stifling it for their own profits...

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #50)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:23 PM

56. 'i did not expect a shitstorm by posting this."

I guess you expected bullshit would go unchallenged?

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:33 PM

43. The FDA

loved by skeptics everywhere, regulates homeopathic remedies, just as any other OTC.

http://healing.about.com/od/homeopathy/a/homeopathy_fact_4.htm

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:33 PM

44. Mercola is a conservative woo CT website

1. Joseph Mercola runs it. He is a member of the AAPS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercola

2. "The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) is a politically conservative non-profit association founded in 1943 to "fight socialized medicine and to fight the government takeover of medicine." The group was reported to have approximately 4,000 members in 2005, and 3,000 in 2011. Many of the political and scientific viewpoints advocated by AAPS are considered extreme or dubious by other medical groups. Notable members include Ron Paul..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

3. That is the GOOD thing about him.

4. The medical watchdog site Quackwatch has criticized Mercola for making "unsubstantiated claims and clash with those of leading medical and public health organizations many unsubstantiated recommendations for dietary supplements."

5. Just ONE thing he says:

" HIV and AIDS

Mercola has questioned whether HIV is the cause of AIDS. He has argued instead that the manifestations of AIDS (including opportunistic infections and death) may be the result of "psychological stress" brought on by the belief that HIV is harmful. Mercola.com has featured positive presentations of the claims of AIDS denialists, a fringe group which denies the existence of AIDS and/or the role of HIV in causing it.

The scientific community considers the evidence that HIV causes AIDS to be conclusive and rejects AIDS-denialist claims as pseudoscience based on conspiracy theories, faulty reasoning, cherry picking, and misrepresentation of mainly outdated scientific data."

It just goes on and on and on.



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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #44)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:10 AM

114. HATE Mercola. He's also a Ron Paul booster.

 

Great post.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:45 PM

52. homeopathy = fairy dust

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:22 PM

55. OP locked out of their own post?

Golly, who'd have thought?

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Response to zappaman (Reply #55)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:25 PM

57. ...

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:44 PM

59. Wow the hating haters are coming out from under rocks here.

I've used homeopathy for years for myself and for my dogs and cats. Tell my cat with kidney infection that it is fairy dust if you want, but he is alive today because of quick treatment with it.

Such a big response is pretty suspicious.

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Response to Pat Cee (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:55 PM

61. "but he is alive today because of quick treatment with it."

And you know this how?

'Such a big response is pretty suspicious."
Yes, isn't it?
Gee, we must all have jobs with big pharma!

Does paranoia go hand in hand with believing bullshit?

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Response to Pat Cee (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:08 PM

63. Your cat is lucky his immune system was able to overcome kidney infection on its own.

No, I don't believe in magic water.

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Response to Pat Cee (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:42 PM

66. It is fairy dust

Your kitty is very lucky that not being treated hasn't killed him. He has a great immune system.

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Response to Pat Cee (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:38 PM

85. Homeopathy does NOTHING to fight bacterial infections or any other

diseases. IT'S WATER.

I have a microbiology degree AND a veterinary license to back me up. Homeopathy is pure, unadulterated fraudulent bullshit and you got conned.

Thank god your cat survived such nonsensical "treatment".

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Response to Pat Cee (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:43 PM

90. The hating haters

Trolls or just very left brained. Ha! Certainly very disrespectfully egotistical.

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Response to Pat Cee (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:53 PM

91. I'm glad the placebo effect is helping you.

But the fact is that there is NOTHING in homeopathy. Literally nothing.

Homeopathy operates on the "hair of the dog" principle - give someone a teeny bit of something that's related (at least in theory) to their ailment, and the disease is cured.

By "teeny", I mean proportions that can only sanely be expressed using exponential notation. For a 30x dilution, which is a typical dilution used in many homeopathic preparations (I won't call them remedies), you're taking a measure of that substance, diluting it in 10 times the amount of water, taking that dilution, diluting it 10:1, and repeating 30 times, so you have a dilution of one part in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (1 in 10E30, or 30X.)

Just for comparison, Avogadro's number is about 6.02*10E23, and that counts the number of carbon atoms in 12 grams of carbon. That's smaller by a factor of a million.

This means that a 30X homeopathic dilution is so extremely dilute that not one molecule of the original substance exists in the dilution.

That's why people like me immediately pounce on homeopathy, and righteously call it woo-woo. Homeopathy is nonsense! That expensive homeopathic pill you got at Walgreens is nothing but a sugar pill - the active ingredient is so dilute as to be literally non-existant.

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Response to Pat Cee (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:14 PM

97. It is really an embarrassment

and does not reflect normal democrats at all. There is this fringe (nutty imo) group on DU who are BONKERS CRAZY anti homeopathy- and any discussion of vaccines also sets them all off.

I have decided that they are simply scared of it.

Most of the vets around here use homeopathic remedies along with regular stuff. In the real world it is not so controversial. only here on DU for some reason I have yet to grasp.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:58 PM

62. Yes, call and congratulate them for cleaning up the quackery

Any time vets remind people of basic science, and stop people thinking magical thinking will cure their pets, it is a Good Thing.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:39 PM

64. I'll call them on Sunday to thank them

I would never give my kitty that useless crap.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:39 PM

65. Good! On the other hand I have a pint of snake oil to sell, any takers?

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:53 PM

70. If you turn that into homeopathic snake oil...

You could have a hundred billion pints of 11X anguis oleum to sell to easily fleeced.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #70)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:21 PM

73. Hmmm, good idea but don't you think 11x is a little too strong?

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #73)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:38 AM

119. Better strengthen it.

Dilute it until it's 30X!

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:20 PM

71. Homeopathy

Homeopathy, my dear woo woo haters and bullshit decriers, has been used in Europe for 250 years and you can buy it OTC in any pharmacy there. I use it myself for allergies because the friggin pharma solutions make me sicker. On the other hand I take my meds for what ails me also,as I would rather feel better than make fun of something because my ego just can't stand not to be right. Just because you are all too incurious to try using homeopathic meds and flower essences which are also in world wide usage and were a guided spiritual solution to emotional conditions as well as physical ones doesn't mean shouting woo woo and magical thinking and bullshit at it will make them any less effective. I mean... A magically small amount of LSD will make you think magically too. Very tiny amounts of mold which you can't see on a sugar cube...don't tell me that is bullshit or woo woo. Flower essences were discovered BY a doctor through guided meditation. Does that make their effectiveness any less powerful? Oh, you wouldn't know that because you've never used them? Sad for you then. How about microscopic amounts of Sarin in the water supply? Well no, we don't need to try that out. I know! Vaccinations! Minute tiny unseeable amounts of a pox which could and most likely would kill you in an epidemic, instead administered under the skin instead heals or prevents death? Actually that is what homeopathy does. Only through a frequency of vibrations. Which of course you all say don't exist. Good luck with that.

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Response to ms.airomatic (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:23 PM

72. Ahahahahahahah...

Seriously. Do you believe that nonsense?



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #72)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:58 PM

110. I love that image! n/t

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Response to ms.airomatic (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:00 PM

74. Vibrations... I bet they are quantum level ones... Or something like that...

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #74)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:31 AM

118. The fun part of homeopathy...

...is that you get to go all Geordi LaForge and start technobabbling to explain how a substance that has been diluted until there's not one molecule left can somehow have a real effect on the sucker patient that consumes it.

"The succussion creates a verteron pulse that reverses the polarity of the electron fields, causing a subspace signature of the substance to be retained in the water, which creates ionic vibrations that result in homeopathic effects!"

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Response to ms.airomatic (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:40 PM

87. Astrology has been used for hundreds of years, too.

Doesn't mean it's anything but pure quackery either.

Fraudulent bullshit, preying on the ignorant and misinformed and gullible.

God I hate this bullshit.

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Response to ms.airomatic (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:20 PM

98. Thanks, this anti homeopathy group is ridiculous

and lots of us on DU use homeopathic remedies.

But we mostly have given up discussing it as the pile on effect is really so low and demoralizing.

And they all try to act as though they are so so much smarter than everyone else. Good grief!

But they are mostly scared. That is all. It is too scary to contemplate that something so irrational can be effective for so many.

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Response to ms.airomatic (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:41 PM

105. Human sacrifice to appease gods has been around longer

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:01 PM

75. All of you Naysayers should be asshamed of yourselves.

You are extremely disrespectful.

When you have Big-Pharma news to share, we don't insult the hell out of you just because you choose a different path to health.

Some folks out there can use this news. Just because you can't or won't doesn't mean it isn't worthy.

What happened to RESPECT?

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Response to kimmerspixelated (Reply #75)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:10 PM

77. I am not sure why it is necessary

to be respectful of something that has absolutely no support in science. If you want to cite some peer-reviewed publications documenting field trials and other evidence that homeopathy actually works, do it. That's where respect comes from. And when I refer to homeopathy, I do not mean traditional or herbal remedies, at least some of which seem to have some value, I mean the ridiculous 18th-century pseudo-science which claims that water that once had some substance dissolved in it but has been diluted to the point where not a single molecule of that substance remains but there are still some "vibrations" in the water that supposedly will cure disease. This is in the same category as phrenology, astrology and ouija boards. I don't understand why this foolishness is worthy of respect.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #77)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:39 PM

86. Really????

You sound like a total materialist who has no experience other than the material. With your scorn you shut everyone who does know another reality which is pretty disrespectful in itself. You know nothing of what you are scorning.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #77)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:35 PM

102. We are supposed to have respectful discourse

about issues. These pile ons are not only rude, but they create discord where none is really required.

The OP is simple, no need to attack the author or the content.

Just move on, no one is asking anyone to go buy homeopathic remedies.

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Response to kimmerspixelated (Reply #75)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:21 PM

99. Yes, good point! nt

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Response to kimmerspixelated (Reply #75)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:03 AM

112. Fuck no, I'm not ashamed of exposing quackery.

Feel free to make a fool of yourself with your bottles of water and sugar pills infused with unicorn farts, but excuuuuse me for referring to nonsense as nonsense.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:02 PM

76. Just use tap water, same thing.

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Response to RedCappedBandit (Reply #76)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:16 PM

78. If you think that magic homeopathic water works, it just might.

The placebo effect can be quite powerful, as long as your ailment isn't something life-threatening. However, the AVMA doesn't think the placebo effect works very well on animals because the animal isn't going to think it works. The animal's dumbass owner who believes this quackery might think the animal is getting better - kind of like a transferred placebo effect - but in fact nothing will happen except the animal might be less thirsty. But it will still be sick.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #78)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:35 PM

84. Are you a vet The that you know this?

You have treated animals with homeopathy? Why not tell people of your experiences then? I mean all the failures?

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:29 PM

80. Please retract your lie. The AVMA is NOT voting to

"outlaw" a goddamned thing. The AVMA is a private association, not a legislative body, for starters. Their RESOLUTIONS carry no legal weight. They are just a group OPINION.

So get a fucking grip and stop lying about what is going on.

Furthermore, homeopathic remedies are fraudulent snake oil. There is NO scientific basis for the entire pseudoscience of homeopathy. And it is HARMFUL because it misleads people into believing that they are helping their pets by administering it when they may very well be delaying obtaining actual, real, helpful medical care.

GAWD, how I loathe pseudoscience and its promoters. Buncha charlatans.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #80)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:33 PM

83. i was looking for your reply

should have waited another minute before posting

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #80)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:43 PM

107. Thanks! I knew the vote would allow them to lobby Congress at most

but it's the same type of overstatement we've always seen from frauds and quacks like Mercola.

Some people will believe the most outrageous nonsense on the planet no matter how many facts they've been exposed to.

Their pets deserve better. Shame on Mercola and shame on anybody who produces this rubbish and markets it to pet owners.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #80)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:14 AM

115. Your post was alerted. I was Juror #6

 

At Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:24 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Please retract your lie. The AVMA is NOT voting to
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2134303

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

this poster is accusing the OP of lying and is disrespectful.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:28 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Left alone for truth.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: I agree with the post's sentiment, but the alerter is correct.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Sorry, I totally agree with Kestrel. If you want to give your pets $12 drops of dirty water, that's on you. Leave medical science out of it.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:32 PM

82. The AVMA is the medical association

for veterinarians... They take positions on various animal medical and welfare issues. Although they may lobby for or against certain legislation, they don't regulate anything.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:04 PM

95. Homeopathy - there's nothing in it.

I took an overdose of homeopathic medicine tonight - 1000 times the recommended dose. Hasn't done a thing.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:27 PM

100. Now, if only we could end the homeopathy bullshit for humans, too

Would be a perfect start to the weekend.

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Response to Godhumor (Reply #100)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:35 PM

101. never happen

It's Faith Healing, without the actual religion.

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Response to eShirl (Reply #101)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:41 PM

106. let me dream, heh

I know it won't happen, but I can always hope.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:39 PM

104. This stuff is BULLSHIT and needs to be outlawed

If people want to believe this horseshit for themselves, that's their problem. Kids and pets need real care.

Homeopathy isn't alternative medicine, it's water.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:52 PM

109. Homeopathy is pseudoscientific nonsense but I have a great recipe for homeopathic chicken soup

 

Hang a chicken carcass in a sunny window.

Allow the shadow to shine on a pot of boiling water for 1 hour.

Season to taste and serve while still warm.

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:02 AM

111. Last year for my university skeptic club's Pseudoscience fair, I made homeopathic beer!

You would think that if homeopathy actually worked, people would be using it to get wasted!

But, I got a syringe, and some cups, and made a 30X beer dilution that I called Placebrew!

0.0% ABV, Zero calories, Zero carbs, No hangovers, legal for minors, safe for pregnant women, and even for driving!

The Ultimate Light Beer!

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Response to FirstLight (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 12:09 AM

113. Text of my email to AVMA

On a liberal political message board that I enjoy, someone posted a request that people contact you in opposition to the supposed "ban" on homeopathic treatment for pets. Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022131922

Quite a few people responded by pointing out that homeopathy is unscientific rubbish. (If you bother to go to the thread you'll see references to "woo," which on that site is slang for any belief not grounded in fact.)

I am one pet owner who strongly SUPPORTS the proposal that the AVMA take a stand against subjecting animals to homeopathy. The stuff the homeopaths sell is, itself, probably not harmful (it's just water), but reliance on it may lead some people to forgo genuine treatment for their pets.


Thanks,

Jim Lane


Note to DUers who agree with me. Repeated here for your emailing convenience is the email address from the OP: avmainfo@avma.org

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