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Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:55 PM

10 tips to end rape

76 replies, 5818 views

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Reply 10 tips to end rape (Original post)
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 OP
MotherPetrie Jan 2013 #1
thelordofhell Jan 2013 #2
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #3
dsc Jan 2013 #25
CTyankee Jan 2013 #4
ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #5
SunSeeker Jan 2013 #6
SCVDem Jan 2013 #7
Iggo Jan 2013 #8
Hekate Jan 2013 #9
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #10
davidn3600 Jan 2013 #49
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #50
smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #68
Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2013 #11
tavalon Jan 2013 #12
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #13
tavalon Jan 2013 #15
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #17
LisaLynne Jan 2013 #18
MadrasT Jan 2013 #34
Iggo Jan 2013 #58
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #59
REP Jan 2013 #47
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #51
me b zola Jan 2013 #14
etherealtruth Jan 2013 #16
Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #19
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #20
Confusious Jan 2013 #26
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #27
Confusious Jan 2013 #28
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #30
Confusious Jan 2013 #32
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #31
Confusious Jan 2013 #33
MadrasT Jan 2013 #35
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #36
Confusious Jan 2013 #38
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #40
Confusious Jan 2013 #41
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #42
Confusious Jan 2013 #43
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #45
REP Jan 2013 #48
Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #56
REP Jan 2013 #64
MotherPetrie Jan 2013 #53
Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #57
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #21
Solly Mack Jan 2013 #22
SalviaBlue Jan 2013 #23
Odin2005 Jan 2013 #24
Iggo Jan 2013 #60
Major Nikon Jan 2013 #63
leftstreet Jan 2013 #29
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #37
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #39
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #44
TeeYiYi Jan 2013 #46
BlueJazz Jan 2013 #52
PeaceNikki Jan 2013 #54
BlueJazz Jan 2013 #55
redqueen Jan 2013 #62
smirkymonkey Jan 2013 #69
BlueJazz Jan 2013 #71
aptal Jan 2013 #61
Silent3 Jan 2013 #65
Confusious Jan 2013 #66
bettyellen Jan 2013 #67
redqueen Jan 2013 #72
bettyellen Jan 2013 #75
Silent3 Jan 2013 #73
bettyellen Jan 2013 #74
Silent3 Jan 2013 #76
Iggo Jan 2013 #70

Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:02 PM

1. K&R

 

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Response to thelordofhell (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:47 PM

3. Or if you're Julian Assange.

"In August, the MP George Galloway publicly dismissed allegations of rape and sexual assault against Julian Assange. The WikiLeaks founder, he said, was guilty simply of “bad sexual etiquette” when he began to have sex with a sleeping woman who had previously consented; his actions were “not rape as anyone with any sense can possibly recognize it”. The law clearly states otherwise."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/2012-the-year-when-it-became-okay-to-blame-victims-of-sexual-assault-8432716.html

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Response to thelordofhell (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 06:24 PM

25. no it's not

The case was thrown out because the prosecutor chose to charge under two different parts of the same statute.. One part banned having sex with someone who wasn't able to give consent due to being unconscious and the other which banned having sex with someone you fraudently convinced that you were their spouse. The court ruled that since the woman was married to the man with whom she thought she was having sex, that the second law wasn't broken. They then overturned the conviction since they didn't know if he had been convicted under the first theory or under the second.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:38 PM

4. This needs to be posted again and again...even here on liberal DU...

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:39 PM

5. K&R

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:03 PM

6. I love this!

I am so sick of society expecting the woman to prevent the rape: don't wear revealing clothing, don't go out at night, blah blah blah.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:09 PM

7. The best?

Bailiff, Whack his pee pee!

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:18 PM

8. Plus a fucken million.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:32 PM

9. Puts the responsibility right where it belongs--with men.

Years ago I read the autobiography of Golda Meir, one of the founding mothers of modern Israel. In the early days there was a problem of assaults on women, and the wise male heads in the leadership suggested a curfew for women to help keep them safe.

She said, Why do women need a curfew? They are not doing the assaulting. Give men the curfew.

Works for me.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:44 PM

10. love it!!

Golda is a treasure.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #9)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:11 PM

49. This bothers me immensely

The reality is that we don't live in a perfect world. There will always be criminals out there. There will always be evil people out there. It is only smart to take precautions for your own safety.

If my house is robbed, is it my fault because I forgot to lock the door? No. No matter what it's the burglar's fault. They are the ones that broke the law. BUT, had I locked the door it might not have made it so easy for them to break in....maybe even prevented it. So every night before I go to bed, I make sure my door is locked.

But for some reason it's considered bad to tell women to watch their drinks when they are at a bar?

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #49)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:34 PM

50. You are totally missing the point.

This is addressing the fact that we are sick of risk reduction being taught to women as 'prevention'. Targeting rape prevention advice at women can start off as empowering, and quickly descend into crippling—or worse, preemptive victim blaming.

Imagine the potential psychological implications if all "rape PREVENTION" is directed at a women who is assaulted. In addition to the trauma of the act, there can be serious emotional turmoil when they are made to feel as if THEY did something wrong.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/06/02/jackson-katz-violence-against-women-is-a-mens-issue

Jackson Katz, an internationally recognized educator on gender violence prevention among men and boys, argues society must first transform how it thinks about violence against women if it wants to prevent these acts from reoccurring. "As a culture, Americans first must take the step in acknowledging that violence against women is not a women's issue, but a men's issue," Katz said.

Another reason why Katz has a problem with people using women's issues to describe violence against women is the issue of perpetration and who is responsible for perpetrating these acts. "Take rape for example," said Katz. "Over 99 percent of rape is perpetrated by men, but it's a women's issue?"

Kats said one underlying problem is that college campuses tend to focus on the prevention of rape and sexual violence. "But the term prevention in not really prevention; rather, it's risk reduction," Katz said. "These programs focus on how women can reduce their chances of being sexually assaulted. I agree that women benefit from these education programs, but let us not mistake this for prevention."

"If a woman has done everything in her power to reduce her risk, then a man who has the proclivity for abuse or need for power will just move on to another woman or target," Katz added. "It's about the guy and his need to assert his power. And it's not just individual men, it's a cultural problem. Our culture is producing violent men, and violence against women has become institutionalized. We need to take a step back and examine the institutionalized polices drafted by men that perpetuate the problem."

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #50)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 07:23 AM

68. K&R, Great Thread.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:36 PM

11. EXACTLY. nt

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:50 AM

12. Wow, that's a great list!

I thought it was going to be another blame the victim thing, but it isn't.

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Response to tavalon (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:52 AM

13. You will NEVER see one of those "blame the victim" things from me...

Never, never, ever.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:54 AM

15. Good

And the list was completely spot on.

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Response to tavalon (Reply #15)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:58 AM

17. I am a huge fan of Jackson Katz who does a wonderful job of advocating.

If you are not familiar with his work, here's the one I re-read, cite and think about with great frequency:

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/06/02/jackson-katz-violence-against-women-is-a-mens-issue


ETA HIS 10 tips:

http://www.jacksonkatz.com/wmcd.html

TEN THINGS MEN CAN DO TO PREVENT GENDER VIOLENCE

1. Approach gender violence as a MEN'S issue involving men of all ages and socioeconomic, racial and ethnic backgrounds. View men not only as perpetrators or possible offenders, but as empowered bystanders who can confront abusive peers

2. If a brother, friend, classmate, or teammate is abusing his female partner -- or is disrespectful or abusive to girls and women in general -- don't look the other way. If you feel comfortable doing so, try to talk to him about it. Urge him to seek help. Or if you don't know what to do, consult a friend, a parent, a professor, or a counselor. DON'T REMAIN SILENT.

3. Have the courage to look inward. Question your own attitudes. Don't be defensive when something you do or say ends up hurting someone else. Try hard to understand how your own attitudes and actions might inadvertently perpetuate sexism and violence, and work toward changing them.

4. If you suspect that a woman close to you is being abused or has been sexually assaulted, gently ask if you can help.

5. If you are emotionally, psychologically, physically, or sexually abusive to women, or have been in the past, seek professional help NOW.

6. Be an ally to women who are working to end all forms of gender violence. Support the work of campus-based women's centers. Attend "Take Back the Night" rallies and other public events. Raise money for community-based rape crisis centers and battered women's shelters. If you belong to a team or fraternity, or another student group, organize a fundraiser.

7. Recognize and speak out against homophobia and gay-bashing. Discrimination and violence against lesbians and gays are wrong in and of themselves. This abuse also has direct links to sexism (eg. the sexual orientation of men who speak out against sexism is often questioned, a conscious or unconscious strategy intended to silence them. This is a key reason few men do so).

8. Attend programs, take courses, watch films, and read articles and books about multicultural masculinities, gender inequality, and the root causes of gender violence. Educate yourself and others about how larger social forces affect the conflicts between individual men and women.

9. Don't fund sexism. Refuse to purchase any magazine, rent any video, subscribe to any Web site, or buy any music that portrays girls or women in a sexually degrading or abusive manner. Protest sexism in the media.

10. Mentor and teach young boys about how to be men in ways that don't involve degrading or abusing girls and women. Volunteer to work with gender violence prevention programs, including anti-sexist men's programs. Lead by example

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:08 AM

18. That is also an awesome list. nt

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 07:05 PM

34. This is great. Bookmarking for future reference.

Thanks.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:21 PM

58. I can't emphasize enough how overall goddam important is #3.

It took me a long time to learn how to step outside of a situation, look at it coldly, and ask, "Am I doing it?", and then accept it if the answer was Yes. And believe me, I got zero help from my peer group. It was all me and it was a lonely journey.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #58)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:24 PM

59. Thank you for that.

After some 'resistance' to these concepts, it warms my heart to read that.


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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:56 PM

47. Remember Golda Meir's response to protecting women by locking women up at night?

"But it is the men who are attacking the women. If there is to be a curfew, let the men stay at home.”

I love this quote.

I think she said that over 50 years ago, and I'm sure some will think it as shocking now as they did then.

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Response to REP (Reply #47)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:38 PM

51. Yes, she was a treasure. :)

And totally correct.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:54 AM

14. ^^^^THIS^^^^

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:55 AM

16. This needs to be posted over and over

Thank you!

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:12 AM

19. This is GREAT and should be extended to other crimes, too.

TOP TIPS TO END MURDER (GUARANTEED TO WORK):

1. When you go into a convenience store, simply choose what you want to buy and pay for it. Under NO circumstances take out a gun and blow away the clerk.

2. Don't be tempted to kill your parents to get your inheritance sooner. Instead, learn to be patient. They will eventually die of old age.

3. Is your spouse annoying you, or cheating on you? Divorce is a MUCH better solution than murder.

4. When you see someone withdrawing a large amount of cash from an ATM, do NOT follow them, murder them and then steal their money.

5. If you are really, really angry at someone, and happen to have access to a weapon, count to 10 slowly until your anger subsides. Do not get out your weapon and murder the person you are angry at.

6. If you are a drugs dealer who has been stiffed on a large payment by a customer, report them to Experian or one of the other credit reporting firms. Don't murder them.

7. Angry at the President of the United States? Don't assassinate him. Simply vote against him in the next election!

8. Do you have an unhealthy obsession with a well-known celebrity? Don't stalk and murder them. Join their fan club instead. They may even send you an autographed photo.

9. Refrain from joining any kind of fanatical organization that advocates terrorist attacks and suicide bombings. Because that's murder. Join a more civilized club instead.

10. DON'T murder.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:17 AM

20. I get that you missed the nuance of the list.

Victims of sexual violence are sick of being blamed.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/06/02/jackson-katz-violence-against-women-is-a-mens-issue
Jackson Katz, an internationally recognized educator on gender violence prevention among men and boys, argues society must first transform how it thinks about violence against women if it wants to prevent these acts from reoccurring. "As a culture, Americans first must take the step in acknowledging that violence against women is not a women's issue, but a men's issue," Katz said.

Another reason why Katz has a problem with people using women's issues to describe violence against women is the issue of perpetration and who is responsible for perpetrating these acts. "Take rape for example," said Katz. "Over 99 percent of rape is perpetrated by men, but it's a women's issue?"

Kats said one underlying problem is that college campuses tend to focus on the prevention of rape and sexual violence. "But the term prevention in not really prevention; rather, it's risk reduction," Katz said. "These programs focus on how women can reduce their chances of being sexually assaulted. I agree that women benefit from these education programs, but let us not mistake this for prevention."

"If a woman has done everything in her power to reduce her risk, then a man who has the proclivity for abuse or need for power will just move on to another woman or target," Katz added. "It's about the guy and his need to assert his power. And it's not just individual men, it's a cultural problem. Our culture is producing violent men, and violence against women has become institutionalized. We need to take a step back and examine the institutionalized polices drafted by men that perpetuate the problem."

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #20)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 06:37 PM

26. You missed the nuance of the list

People who don't do these sorts of things don't need the list, and those that do aren't going to listen to a list.

That is, unless you think all men rape, even the "good" ones. But what kind of fucked up definition of good do you have if you think the definition includes rape?

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Response to Confusious (Reply #26)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 06:39 PM

27. confucius would say: you should read content of post you reply to

Not just the title

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 06:44 PM

28. I did, and it's bullshit

It's like saying we need to teach the criminals not to commit crime, not teach the victims how to avoid it.

Do you think most men do rape?

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Response to Confusious (Reply #28)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 06:47 PM

30. while you make an intelligent, strong and well-reasoned argument, I disagree.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #30)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 06:49 PM

32. Of course you do.

Expecting any sort of logic from a person posting this stuff is like expecting Jesus to return. It ain't gonna happen.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #28)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 06:47 PM

31. you didn't read a fucking word.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #31)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 06:50 PM

33. I read the entire thing. As you said, I disagree.

You just can't accept it.

(or logic, for that matter)

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Response to Confusious (Reply #33)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 07:07 PM

35. Ah, method #1452 to try to shut up a woman who speaks out.

Claim she's not "logical".

Old, tired, and transparent as hell.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #33)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 07:09 PM

36. I'm sorry you don't understand the difference between risk reduction and prevention.

Or, do just think women are responsible for their own rapes?

That's sick, dude.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #36)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:05 PM

38. That's a straw man DUDE

I guess you can't be honest either.

That's sick, DUDE

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Response to Confusious (Reply #38)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:08 PM

40. ..|..

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #40)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:11 PM

41. par for the course. nt

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Response to Confusious (Reply #41)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:11 PM

42. ..|..

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #42)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:12 PM

43. Now you're just making me laugh.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #43)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:39 PM

45. Are you sitting in your stinky leather recliner



So upset that you have to see another opinion about a subject?

Shaking your fists at the sky and at Uppity wymmins?

You don't "get" nuance, and we all see this.

So don't dig yourself into the Hole of Denial any more than you already have.

You've made your point; stop hijacking the thread.



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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:02 PM

48. Tip #7 on the poster seems to be a grey area to some Members here at DU

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Response to REP (Reply #48)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:13 PM

56. Yes. There HAVE been a number of DUers defending Julian Assange,

arguing that he should not face charges of forcible rape of a sleeping woman.

Surprising and disappointing.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #56)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:41 PM

64. I was thinking about the self-admitted rapist who posted this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1904784


NashvilleLefty (725 posts)
59. I am 55. A passed put "chick" was considered

"fair game". In fact, if you didn't take advantage of her, then you were accused of sexual deviance or being inadequate.

It's really easy to say "I wouldn't do that" when they have never been put in that position.


Even though he deleted the OP, it's easy enough to figure out what he was admitting to if one lacks the kind of recall I have.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:41 PM

53. You REALLY are trying to deflect attention from the fact that vast majority of rapists are men

 

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #53)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:14 PM

57. Nope. Dominique Strauss-Kahn; Julian Assange; Roman Polanski.

Certainly all male. I wish these dudes had taken on board the poster in the OP.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:16 PM

21. Kick for everyone who is sick of risk reduction being taught to women as 'prevention'.

For those missing the nuance: targeting rape prevention advice at women can start off as empowering, and quickly descend into crippling—or worse, preemptive victim blaming.

Imagine the potential psychological implications if all "rape PREVENTION" is directed at a women who is assaulted. In addition to the trauma of the act, there can be serious emotional turmoil when they are made to feel as if THEY did something wrong.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:19 PM

22. k/r

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:42 PM

23. K&R

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:55 PM

24. The least time this was posted the "Mens Rights" folks had a hissy fit.

But fuck them! This stuff needs to be said.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #24)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:40 PM

60. I remember.

Oy.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #24)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:33 PM

63. Sexism does not need to be said

If you don't think it's sexist, imagine if a man had posted a thread entitled 10 tips to end neonaticide. Such a post would be incredibly sexist and offensive and would likely earn the poster a pizza. Yet when you flip the gender roles posters can flaunt sexism with impunity. Regardless of how important the underlying subject is, sexism is not the way to communicate points in civilized adult discussion. There is no need for sexism and it's hard to imagine in this case how this can be anything other than counterproductive to whatever the OP is trying to accomplish. There are education programs which do have proven efficacy towards prevention, but the biggest obstacle towards those initiatives aren't "men's rights folks" (whoever that is), it's the religous establishment. Yet we can't have a discussion about that because so many are hung up on indignant sexist drama.

Just sayin'

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 06:45 PM

29. DURec

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 07:53 PM

37. Bravo


I love this.

Some characters refuse to "get it" and this tells you all you need to know.

I am consistently perplexed by those men who get really pissy and pout and act all out of sorts whenever we discuss rape.

I suppose in their world, rape - as a subject - is much like childbirth was before men were allowed in the delivery room. Some mystery they should not have to trouble their manly man selves to contemplate.

They would rather "not know" any details, not have to confront the ugliness of rape, and it really disrupts their day to have to be reminded about rape. And dayum if you actually ask them to CARE or to see things from a different perpective? They act like you've tried to steal their hairpieces or feed them bad leftovers.

I can almost smell the musty, BO tinge to their easy chairs, as they shake their fists at uppity womens for ruining their happy little bubble worlds.

I just laugh at them. I know when they get crotchety and mean and such, we are hitting a nerve. For as much as they hate rape threads, they always chime in to TELL you how much they hate rape threads - one way or the other. And then you can only thank them for the kick, and shake your head at their cold-hearted selfishness....

Thanks for this post PeaceNikki





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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #37)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:07 PM

39. Thank you.



The truth is, there's no such thing as a meaningful "rape prevention tip" for potential victims, because the only surefire way to prevent being raped is to never be in the same space as a determined rapist, over which we often have no control, which is why most survivors have been raped in a familiar place by a person known to them.

Real practical rape prevention is dismantling the rape culture, but that's a lot harder than telling a woman to take a cab to her door, as if everyone can afford cabs—and as if cabbies don't sometimes rape people, too.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #39)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:34 PM

44. I especially love the mixed messages



"Ladies, never let your guard down; if you're really, really, really careful and avoid all contact with men, you won't be blamed if you do happen to get raped. No matter where you are or what you're doing, always be on the lookout for possible rapists or else you aren't being responsible and you deserve the rape."

In the same breath, they say:


"Damn, Ladies! Why do you act like every man is a potential rapist? Lighten up!"


WELL WHICH ONE IS IT, FFS?


I always wonder how they spin this shit in their tiny brains......








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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:42 PM

46. k+r ...nt

TYY

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:41 PM

52. Is this a Joke ? Geez...I hope so.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #54)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:58 PM

55. Damn...if our society has gotten this bad that we have to say stuff like: >

"If you're dating a Woman, please tell her if you feel you might rape her" (or something like that) we're in deep trouble.

Christ..I'm 28 and the thought of forcing myself on any woman is something that's never even crossed my mind.

Shit...if it were not for my male friends (who are kind, decent people) I'd think the other men on this planet should be exterminated.

My signature line expresses my thoughts.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #55)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:52 PM

62. It's been this bad.

Only difference is that now, the criminals can immediately post material evidence and brag online. For millennia, shame and misogynist patriarchal culture kept the overwhelming majority of victims silent.

Now the public is finally getting a fuller appreciation of what has been going on, and it's just now starting to sink in. The problem isn't just a few bad apples. It's interwoven in the society that enables these kinds of criminals to operate with almost certain impunity.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #55)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 07:30 AM

69. It's nice to know there are men like you BlueJazz.

I like to think of myself as rational, but I have become increasingly paranoid to the point of thinking that all men are potential rapists (I live in a large city). I don't want to think this way, but I do. I hate having to live in constant fear of a fate that I consider worse than death.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #69)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 10:17 AM

71. Aw..that was sweet. Thanks for posting that.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #52)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:48 PM

61. This is real...

And I find no laughter in the matter.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 11:53 PM

65. I get that this is a protest against "blame the victim" thinking...

...but from all of the enthusiastic "K&R!" the OP is getting, do a lot of people here on DU really think that the major cause of rape is a lot of people out there (men specifically) having somehow missed the "rape is wrong!" message over the course of their lives?

Do people think there's an actual problem with the lack of anti-rape public education programs targeted at would-be rapists? Would-be rapists who won't rape once they learn (imagine their surprise and shock!) that rape is bad?

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #65)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:44 AM

66. Yes. To everything.

Search the web. Read about it yourself.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #65)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 02:09 AM

67. I think a lot of people (even here at DU) need to be educated exactly what rape is

(because a lot of men seemed to be - or claim to be -mired in confusion) but also that campuses and local police need to take it more seriously.

A lot of the assholes look for loopholes, a lot of them get no punishment because people - the perps, cops, lawyers... all do tend to look for ways to blame the victims. Like MRA dudes claiming unsuccessful prosecutions mean that those women lied. Crazy misinformation abounds.

For example I saw a lawyer claim in this Stubenville case that at some points she was somewhat conscious and somehow this could imply consent. This is not true, as she was seriously inebriated, but some will believe that this is the law now. There are also claims she was dating the attacker (I guess because she agreed to meet him that night) and if she dated him, consent was implied. Now we know that legally, even if they were married no is supposed to mean no. But a lot of men do not agree with that law, and they see that very few husbands ever go to jail for rape. So they don't take it seriously. Then you see lawyers muddying the waters with this crap and people start to believe you can't possibly rape a girlfriend either. But the legal system reinforces this idea, because cops tell women all the time to drop charges when they have a relationship with the rapist. All the above are reasons why women get pissed off when you put it on them to protect themselves, and say NOTHING about this being a problem with men's behavior.

Education can change the culture. Other people would be more willing to step up if the boundaries were made clearer to everyone and law enforcement did a better job supporting the victims. As it is now, women are seen by some as fair game. India has the same situation, just to a much stronger degree, so the men's attacks are even more bolder.

But men in America know that so many are willing to turn their heads away too. In making this an issue of women preventing instead of society- and men in particular- dealing with the issue, it is turning our backs on these women. That is why the approach is offensive.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #67)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 11:11 AM

72. This shoild be an OP.

My only minor disagreement is with the characterization of the MRA spin on statistics as misinformation.

It is disinformation. Intentional.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #72)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 02:10 PM

75. Thank you- you are correct- the MRA stuff is deliberate disinformation.

As are the lawyers statements.
Feel free to copy and share and edit as you like, red. Credit me or not, as you wish. It's all good.
I hesitate to start an OP because I don't have links to the lawyers statement, and I feel like if I don't sit and defend the thread for two hours, people will accuse me of posting and running. But yeah, the statement from that lawyer are outrageous and there does need to be an OP about that.
We should all be writing Anderson 360 and asking why the fuck they didn't correct the lawyer! Now, I'm going to have to find links.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #67)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 12:06 PM

73. Rightly or wrongly, we do chastise people who don't lock their houses who end up getting robbed...

...and we don't broadcast public service announcements informing our citizens, "Just because the house is unlocked, that doesn't mean it's OK to take the things inside it. Don't steal!"

I think a lot of people would, in fact, without any hesitation or worry that it would sound callous or politically incorrect, call a person who always left their house unlocked and who eventually got robbed "an idiot".

I don't think people should have to lock their houses, I do indeed put the blame for theft totally on the thieves... but that doesn't change the fact that you're safer from theft when you lock your house than when you don't. We expect people to understand that there are bad people out there in the world, and to at least take some small measures to protect themselves.

If merely acknowledging that there are ways to increase your safety that aren't dependent on the good behavior of others isn't "blaming the victim" in the case of theft, why is it blaming the victim in the case of rape?

I realize the parallels aren't perfect. Some of the things recommended to reduce the risk of rape represent a woman sacrificing a degree of freedom well beyond merely keeping a door locked. I certainly understand a woman saying, "I refuse to live in fear. I'll dress as I want to dress, I'll go where I want to go and go alone if I like, anytime day or night, I'm not going to give up freedom for safety."

That's brave, not foolish like leaving your house unlocked. What would be foolish, however, is to not realize that what makes bravery bravery is acknowledgement of risk. Being angry that such a risk exists doesn't make it go away, and I really don't see anything like the OP public service announcement being an efficacious method of reducing that risk.

The OP hardly seems at the level of "loopholes" of the kind that some people might use to fool themselves that rape isn't rape. To the extent that it might be, it's not going to overpower the human power of rationalizing bad actions. I'm sure there are plenty of thieves who say "The house was unlocked. Those people were practically begging to be robbed!", and they might have a bunch of asshole friends who'd get a big laugh out of that too.

You aren't going to reach people who think that way, be it about theft or rape, with naive public service announcement which do little more than help make people taking the not-so-controversial stand "Rape is bad!" feel good about themselves.

I think there are consciousness-raising efforts that could help, of course. You certainly can take a society like India and make it better about rape than it is now, and ours can be made better too. I just don't think that tactically the OP represents a useful step forward. It's too naive and self-congratulatory for the people delivering the message than helpful to anyone who might receive it.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #73)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 01:54 PM

74. But you see, we're all (mostly!) trained that taking things from other people is wrong from day one.

Last edited Sun Jan 6, 2013, 03:17 PM - Edit history (1)

It's probably the first thing parents teach their kids when they have play dates with other kids. There's not any gray area there. And in the press or in court you NEVER EVER hear anyone excuse the crim of robbery by putting it on the victim. Never. That's what matters, because this enables rapists. No one is enabling robbers by letting them off easy.
Pretty much the same situation with hitting/ violence in general, people try to train their kids not to do that. It;s usually clear from early on. Although, you do see screwed up families giving this a pass because unfortunately parents do pass on their values, screwed up or not.

Anyway-I agree the "naive public service announcement" is not enough- but it's not meant to be. It's just a beginning in reframing the conversation because rape is a problem men have- something they are doing wrong and men need to begin to take it very seriously. Do you really have a problem with that?
Society currently acts as if there's nothing to be done except warn women, and that is accepting that men will continue to rape a large percentage of women, unpunished. It is acceptance of the status quo- and that is very offensive.

Because currently all conversation ranges from how women somehow "let this happen" and goes to "asked for it". There is very little said about rape that correctly identifies it as something men are doing. And that's a huge problem, and a reason why men feel okay to shirk even thinking about it. It's a reason people like the kids at this party are okay in looking the other way.

Do you think it is because the tone is a bit snarky that men find it so offensive? Or do they just not feel like thinking about it because it doesn't directly hurt them?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #74)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 06:18 PM

76. I don't find the OP offensive at all, so I can't speak for those who are offended.

It merely strikes me as strange that the OP earns so much acclaim for something that seems to me a bit naive, and doomed to be ineffective.

But you see, we're all (mostly!) trained that taking things from other people is wrong from day one.

And yet, a great deal of theft occurs. More theft than rape. I think (at least in our American culture -- for all of our faults, some cultures are incredibly more misogynistic than ours) we do make it pretty clear that rape is considered not just bad, but heinous. It doesn't come up with what we teach kids at a young age because we're usually shy about bringing up any kind of sexual topics with young kids.

We don't explicitly tell kids not to murder their playmates either, but they still get the idea that murder is an even worse form of the hurting and fighting and bullying they've (hopefully) been taught not to do. I doubt that many people somehow miss that those lessons apply to rape as well.

The tone in which both rape and murder are discussed is generally so serious and harsh that I don't see how people could escape knowing they're both considered very wrong, not without applying their own rationalizations in ways that people who are determined to rationalize wrongdoing do anyway, no matter what. Sure, there might be contexts in which rape gets trivialized (someone might describe getting overbilled by a mechanic as being "raped"), but we trivialize killing much, much more often (casually phrases like, "oh, that's killing me", "I'm going to kill you", plenty of killing in games), yet I don't think that we often worry that this means the "killing is wrong" message isn't getting through.

And in the press or in court you NEVER EVER hear anyone excuse the crim of robbery by putting it on the victim. Never. That's what matters, because this enables rapists.

Not that we're exactly comparing apples to apples here anyway, but I certainly have many times heard victims of theft being blamed for being careless or naive. These things simply don't make it to court because there's no known suspect to charge, and don't make a big splash in the news most of the time because (unless it's a huge heist) theft is not considered a major crime.

If you, say, left your wallet on a table in a restaurant while going to the bathroom, and came back and found it gone, if you aren't too embarrassed to report such a theft, you can bet that the officer who takes your report would be considering that crime almost half your fault (no, I'm never saying that's true of rape, for anyone who misconstrues that I'm going there), and may or may not be polite enough to keep that thought to himself. Report a theft like that and you can be pretty sure the report will be filed and forgotten -- enough blame will be placed on you that the police won't think the crime worthy of further investigation.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2013, 10:11 AM

70. How DARE you try to make me feel like I'm the one responsible..,

...even though I haven't done anything wrong!

Oh. Wait a minute. ( )

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