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Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:30 AM

"Some in the crowd, which would grow to close to 50 people, arrived with beer"

"Those who did not were met by cases of it and a makeshift bar of vodka, rum and whiskey, all for the taking, no identification needed. In a matter of no time, many of the partygoers — many of them were high school athletes — were imbibing from red plastic cups inside the home of a volunteer football coach at Steubenville High at what would be the first of several parties that night."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/sports/high-school-football-rape-case-unfolds-online-and-divides-steubenville-ohio.html?pagewanted=all

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Reply "Some in the crowd, which would grow to close to 50 people, arrived with beer" (Original post)
Earth_First Jan 2013 OP
bigtree Jan 2013 #1
Laurian Jan 2013 #2
bigtree Jan 2013 #8
cali Jan 2013 #12
bigtree Jan 2013 #17
cali Jan 2013 #25
Rex Jan 2013 #64
MynameisBlarney Jan 2013 #53
Bluenorthwest Jan 2013 #167
bigtree Jan 2013 #185
dog_lovin_dem Jan 2013 #209
Laurian Jan 2013 #217
Bluenorthwest Jan 2013 #221
Laurian Jan 2013 #13
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #49
seabeyond Jan 2013 #56
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #137
seabeyond Jan 2013 #139
demmiblue Jan 2013 #16
bigtree Jan 2013 #41
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #50
bigtree Jan 2013 #59
MynameisBlarney Jan 2013 #57
bigtree Jan 2013 #67
MynameisBlarney Jan 2013 #72
bigtree Jan 2013 #80
MynameisBlarney Jan 2013 #90
bigtree Jan 2013 #92
MynameisBlarney Jan 2013 #93
Earth_First Jan 2013 #102
lapislzi Jan 2013 #120
bigtree Jan 2013 #126
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #140
lapislzi Jan 2013 #119
riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #160
bigtree Jan 2013 #165
riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #171
bigtree Jan 2013 #177
yardwork Jan 2013 #192
riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #196
bigtree Jan 2013 #200
bigtree Jan 2013 #197
yardwork Jan 2013 #206
bigtree Jan 2013 #211
yardwork Jan 2013 #214
datasuspect Jan 2013 #213
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #219
riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #220
seabeyond Jan 2013 #18
bigtree Jan 2013 #46
cleanhippie Jan 2013 #91
cleanhippie Jan 2013 #84
cleanhippie Jan 2013 #81
seabeyond Jan 2013 #87
bigtree Jan 2013 #101
seabeyond Jan 2013 #105
bigtree Jan 2013 #111
seabeyond Jan 2013 #114
Saboburns Jan 2013 #129
seabeyond Jan 2013 #141
bigtree Jan 2013 #145
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #149
bigtree Jan 2013 #152
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #155
bigtree Jan 2013 #159
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #161
bigtree Jan 2013 #163
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #170
bigtree Jan 2013 #176
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #182
bigtree Jan 2013 #190
yardwork Jan 2013 #193
bigtree Jan 2013 #198
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #194
bigtree Jan 2013 #199
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #202
bigtree Jan 2013 #203
randome Jan 2013 #204
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cleanhippie Jan 2013 #104
seabeyond Jan 2013 #108
cleanhippie Jan 2013 #109
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #150
bigtree Jan 2013 #153
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #157
bigtree Jan 2013 #162
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #166
bigtree Jan 2013 #174
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #179
polly7 Jan 2013 #168
bigtree Jan 2013 #178
polly7 Jan 2013 #188
Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #3
Earth_First Jan 2013 #5
Chan790 Jan 2013 #15
tblue37 Jan 2013 #19
Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #23
Earth_First Jan 2013 #27
Brickbat Jan 2013 #28
bigtree Jan 2013 #6
Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #26
seabeyond Jan 2013 #32
lapislzi Jan 2013 #62
Rex Jan 2013 #68
bigtree Jan 2013 #69
lapislzi Jan 2013 #94
bigtree Jan 2013 #103
lapislzi Jan 2013 #117
bigtree Jan 2013 #123
lapislzi Jan 2013 #127
randome Jan 2013 #134
lapislzi Jan 2013 #136
randome Jan 2013 #147
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #154
seabeyond Jan 2013 #156
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #158
randome Jan 2013 #164
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #175
randome Jan 2013 #187
riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #169
seabeyond Jan 2013 #172
randome Jan 2013 #186
seabeyond Jan 2013 #189
randome Jan 2013 #191
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #173
riderinthestorm Jan 2013 #201
Tsiyu Jan 2013 #205
Jenoch Jan 2013 #97
Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #112
Earth_First Jan 2013 #4
bigtree Jan 2013 #11
cali Jan 2013 #14
bigtree Jan 2013 #24
cali Jan 2013 #31
bigtree Jan 2013 #35
Bluenorthwest Jan 2013 #180
bigtree Jan 2013 #195
Earth_First Jan 2013 #33
cali Jan 2013 #37
demmiblue Jan 2013 #43
bigtree Jan 2013 #54
cali Jan 2013 #58
bigtree Jan 2013 #75
Earth_First Jan 2013 #100
bigtree Jan 2013 #107
Rex Jan 2013 #106
demmiblue Jan 2013 #60
bigtree Jan 2013 #52
Earth_First Jan 2013 #61
bigtree Jan 2013 #116
alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #148
Mariana Jan 2013 #124
seabeyond Jan 2013 #22
bigtree Jan 2013 #30
seabeyond Jan 2013 #34
riverbendviewgal Jan 2013 #63
seabeyond Jan 2013 #73
amandabeech Jan 2013 #132
seabeyond Jan 2013 #143
amandabeech Jan 2013 #146
bigtree Jan 2013 #85
Brickbat Jan 2013 #36
lapislzi Jan 2013 #51
LineLineLineLineLineLineReply .
Rex Jan 2013 #82
LanternWaste Jan 2013 #121
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply I
Rex Jan 2013 #125
bigtree Jan 2013 #128
Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #9
Chan790 Jan 2013 #10
amandabeech Jan 2013 #133
Jamastiene Jan 2013 #208
Chan790 Jan 2013 #222
Brickbat Jan 2013 #20
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #42
lapislzi Jan 2013 #44
randome Jan 2013 #48
lapislzi Jan 2013 #55
randome Jan 2013 #71
seabeyond Jan 2013 #79
randome Jan 2013 #86
seabeyond Jan 2013 #89
Jamastiene Jan 2013 #210
randome Jan 2013 #216
Rex Jan 2013 #66
seabeyond Jan 2013 #83
Rex Jan 2013 #96
seabeyond Jan 2013 #110
Rex Jan 2013 #115
yardwork Jan 2013 #70
Rex Jan 2013 #77
MynameisBlarney Jan 2013 #135
Sunlei Jan 2013 #78
TeamPooka Jan 2013 #118
GeorgeGist Jan 2013 #138
seabeyond Jan 2013 #7
tblue37 Jan 2013 #29
seabeyond Jan 2013 #39
tblue37 Jan 2013 #98
seabeyond Jan 2013 #113
tblue37 Jan 2013 #183
TwilightGardener Jan 2013 #21
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #45
TwilightGardener Jan 2013 #95
Sunlei Jan 2013 #38
Earth_First Jan 2013 #40
OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #99
lapislzi Jan 2013 #47
riverbendviewgal Jan 2013 #76
lapislzi Jan 2013 #122
KurtNYC Jan 2013 #144
lapislzi Jan 2013 #151
A Brand New World Jan 2013 #65
Rex Jan 2013 #74
Earth_First Jan 2013 #88
kerry-is-my-prez Jan 2013 #218
TeeYiYi Jan 2013 #130
Kooljas Jan 2013 #131
trumad Jan 2013 #142
joelbny Jan 2013 #212
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Donfini Jan 2013 #181
seabeyond Jan 2013 #184
Go Vols Jan 2013 #215
No Compromise Jan 2013 #223
Taverner Jan 2013 #225
riverbendviewgal Jan 2013 #226

Response to Earth_First (Original post)


Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:43 AM

2. Really? If everyone had waited for a court determination,

likely none of this would have come to light. That is one of the main problems with this case. Public opinion has moved justice forward (hopefully).

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Response to Laurian (Reply #2)


Response to bigtree (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:56 AM

12. have you even read the long NYT mag piece that's linked in the OP?

Are you actually suggesting that the only people who should speak of this are those directly involved? What on earth do you even mean by "professionalism"?

Actually that sentence makes no sense whatsoever.

It's clear from the evidence that already presented that this girl was the victim of a horrible crime. The outstanding question is how many people engaged in this crime.

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Response to cali (Reply #12)


Response to bigtree (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:05 PM

25. .....

"f you're directly involved, in some way, then, by all means, speak up."

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Response to cali (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:40 PM

64. YEP.

.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:32 PM

53. Short memory?

"If you're directly involved, in some way, then, by all means, speak up. If not, a little professionalism and less sensationalism would seem to be more productive and make whatever folks are advocating or addressing more credible."

There it is.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:09 PM

167. You said it very clearly. You also claim posters should show 'professionalism'. Are your posts here

part of your profession?
Yes or no?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #167)


Response to bigtree (Reply #185)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:40 PM

209. Bigtree, I have been hanging around

this joint since the latter part of 2004 and I want you to know that I accept your humaness and your apology. I agree that most times, we need to step back and let the legal system work things out. This case, however, brings out strong emotions in many of us due to the community's misogynistic response to what took place. The pictures and video make it pretty clear that the female in question was both physically and emotionally violated. Thje town's people have continued that violation, as far as I can see.
Thanks again for your post.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #185)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:13 PM

217. No hard feelings, here. I've read your posts frequently and that's

why I was so surprised by your response to this OP. To me, you've always seemed to be empathetic, kind and understanding. I still think you are.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #185)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:57 PM

221. I think....

A few questions rather than making demands as to how and what others say might go far in such cases.
That goes for me as well.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:58 AM

13. I am not directly involved, but as a past victim of

sexual assault, I do not take this lightly......and I will not sit down and shut up until someone tells me it's okay to have an opinion.

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Response to Laurian (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:24 PM

49. Damn straight!

I get bloody tired of this attitude. The evidence, coming from their own mouths, posted to their own social media accounts is quite sufficient for me to have an opinion on the issue.

Yes, context is everything, but I cannot find a context which mitigates the circumstances in any way. In fact, the statements made by defenders of the football team are quite revealing and damning to boot.

These boys behaved this way because the men in their lives tacitly taught them that this was how you treat women. I went to military school for six years, and even to my jaded sensibilities the misogyny in this story is shocking.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #49)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:34 PM

56. boys behaved this way ... men in their lives tacitly taught them that this was how you treat women.

right. fuckin. on.

thank you

clear. black and white. quick trying to cushion this bullshit.

thanks.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #56)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:40 PM

137. People seem to have a hard time understanding

that we are not required to "not" have an opinion on this incident. The only people who will have an obligation to assess criminal culpability are jurors, should they be charged with evaluating the evidence. We have every right to judge these people for lacking human decency.

Also, witnesses to a crime, ARE allowed to have an opinion, and by posting their videos, these boys have made the world their witness.

A lot of Americans, especially those of us who are male, do not like the thought that we are not that far removed from India in our attitudes towards women. We also hate being reminded how racist we are, but a lot of men will own up faster to American racism than they will criminal misogyny. This is why we had a black president before a woman president.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #137)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:47 PM

139. thank you kelvin. this is a very good post and will say again. there is a freedom

in owning. it is much hard to protect the nontruth then to boldly declare the truth and gain freedom. not ownership. not guilt. and not a loss. they are afraid they will lose something in the process. and there is not a loss. but gaining so much.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:59 AM

16. Pure BS. n/t

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Response to demmiblue (Reply #16)


Response to bigtree (Reply #41)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:28 PM

50. Well, kind of hard to ignore their own words

Last edited Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:42 PM - Edit history (1)

or find any context which would render them innocent. These are not "news reports", these are videos these young men posted themselves and they saw nothing wrong with them until people with more developed consciences got pissed.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #50)


Response to bigtree (Reply #41)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:34 PM

57. So, the videos

and the live tweets mean nothing to you?

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Response to MynameisBlarney (Reply #57)


Response to bigtree (Reply #67)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:45 PM

72. You should probably stop

if you can't remember what you type from just a few moments ago.

"we don't need facts to convict these children; just internet outrage over news reports."

Those videos and tweets are cold hard facts.

And you keep accusing everyone of projecting.

What everyone is doing is calling you out.

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Response to MynameisBlarney (Reply #72)


Response to bigtree (Reply #80)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:52 PM

90. lol

easy there Tiger.
I'm just saying, if you can't remember what you JUST FRIGGIN TYPED a minute ago, maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard.

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Response to MynameisBlarney (Reply #90)


Response to bigtree (Reply #92)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:56 PM

93. Ya know...

I think at this point, I'm gonna take my own advice and just step away from the keyboard for a bit.

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Response to MynameisBlarney (Reply #93)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:03 PM

102. YEP.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #80)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:43 PM

120. You're not from around here, are you?

Only 2 were charged, and then had charges reduced and kicked to juvenile. The corruption in this town is so rank; it goes right to the very top. In the unlikely event (IMO) that there are convictions, they will amount to little more than a wrist slap.

When in fact the damned town is as rotten as rotten can be. Every single adult who knew about alcohol being served to minors should be charged, and fired from any position having to do with the school. Every kid at those parties who saw and did nothing should be charged with accessory. Every kid who tweeted and posted should be charged.

The football program should be terminated.

Only then will others get the message that football players are not a protected class. Only then will the message be sent that some people are above the law. Only then (and probably not even then) will the message be sent that young women are not sex toys for boys. But I don't see that happening, in Steubenville, or anywhere else in the U.S.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #120)


Response to lapislzi (Reply #120)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:49 PM

140. Agreed

Convictions are more likely involving the alcohol than the sexual assault.

These people will walk, but the school and the individuals whose homes these parties took place in are going to pay a VERY heavy price in civil suits.

They might delude themselves (and the criminal justice system) with "boys will be boys" excuses, people will remember their names and faces, and a civil court will not be as forgiving.

Sadly, the only price that will be paid by these scum, is financial.

That said, I AM a believer in trying juveniles as juveniles. This country's justice system is warped enough when it demands to try 12 year-olds as adults.

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Response to MynameisBlarney (Reply #72)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:34 PM

119. Shazam! n/t

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Response to bigtree (Reply #41)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:58 PM

160. Children?? You do know that Micheal Nodiano, from one of those tapes, is 18 years old. An adult.

He proudly posted his own video of his own self proclaiming his participation in the crime.

Others did as well.

Your faux outrage on behalf of these guys is very, very disturbing. Nodiano (and others involved) are legal adults and aren't facing ANY charges even as they have bragged about what they've done. In public.

Yet you want to scold us for being outraged and commenting on this?

What the fuck.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #160)


Response to bigtree (Reply #165)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:16 PM

171. You smeared all of us! As "going nuts" over this.

"we don't need facts to convict these children; just internet outrage over news reports. "

As though those of us who are outraged about this are NOT going by the FACTS. That the FACTS these guys put out there themselves are somehow, what, not facts?

"Think of the children!!!111!!!"

They're not CHILDREN.

None of them.

Being told we're "nuts" for being outraged over this, is well, that's the crazy part. And its not a lie bigtree. I have now read thru the thread and have seen you seemed to be getting a clue that you stepped in it, but you also appear to have selective amnesia over the stuff you've already posted.

These are your own words. I know you're not defending THEM. But you sure are slamming US.







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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #171)


Response to bigtree (Reply #177)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:06 PM

192. Well, I must say that that clears that up.

I was feeling some sympathy for you in this thread until I read this post.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #192)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:15 PM

196. I'm not going to alert on it (I presume someone else will). Its illustrative all on its own here.



Unbelievable.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #196)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:21 PM

200. believe this

I'll never see another thing you write here

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Response to yardwork (Reply #192)


Response to bigtree (Reply #197)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:32 PM

206. I've read all your posts here.

Before I went out earlier today I'd even considered sending you a personal message saying that I usually have a lot of respect for your posts on DU, but I think you have gotten yourself into a pickle in this thread and it would be best to just drop it. Then I returned to read these personal attacks. I understand that you are frustrated and feel unfairly attacked, but your recent posts are just making it worse.

I mean this sincerely, as a poster who has read and respected your posts for a long time.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #206)


Response to bigtree (Reply #211)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:49 PM

214. I think that everybody is very upset about this case.

Emotions are running very high. People are furious that this gang rape of a child was swept under the rug in this community and that she and her family are being blamed. Posters have stated that they had trouble sleeping last night. This has really touched a nerve.

Please don't walk away from DU. Just walk away from this thread. Let it go. Many people have posted appreciation for your point of view in this thread.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #177)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:47 PM

213. you're getting swarmed bubba

 

yep.

best not to engage them.

they make DU suck.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #213)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:43 PM

219. Nobody called HIM an ignorant jackass

or told bigtree to "fuck off."

And yes, the post where he used this kind of language - rather than discussing the topic - was alerted on and allowed to stand 2-4.

Sad.

bigtree admitted he wrote without knowing the facts of the case. On a discussion board, that means people will call you on it.

If posters don't want to engage, they should not post on threads or reply to others. Then they will be cozy and warm and safe from their own words.

Cursing and whining your way through a thread makes DU suck.




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Response to datasuspect (Reply #213)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:50 PM

220. He's using common techniques designed to shut down discussion of rape, rape culture and more.

Sorry but that sucks and its wrong.

Claiming we're simply "nuts" for being outraged. Or that we're using "sensationalized news' instead of facts. Or that we're going after "children" (when we're not).

There's more than a few on this thread alone who are working hard to shut down those of us having a discussion on rape, this rape in particular but it shows up on virtually every rape thread.

Its wrong. Dead wrong.

I'm sorry you are choosing to align yourself with that. I was polite. I objected. I got told to fuck off.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:59 AM

18. we saw a video, we saw pictures, we heard the words out of the boys mouth.

it is incredible to me how often we hear from men telling us to not discuss rape until after the fact.

the problem is, if it was not discussed BEFORE the fact, NOTHING would have been done and it ALL would have been covered up.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #18)


Response to bigtree (Reply #46)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:54 PM

91. Come on, bigtree, you just need to move past her bullshit.

Do you remember the story about the frog and the scorpion? I think the point of the story is applicable here.

The fable is used to illustrate the view that the behaviour of some creatures, or of some people, is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog





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Response to seabeyond (Reply #18)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:50 PM

84. It is incredible to me how often we see you wilfully misconstrue a persons comments

in order to serve your agenda.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:48 PM

81. "a little professionalism and less sensationalism would seem to be more productive..."

Dude, this is DU. We don't do that here.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #81)


Response to seabeyond (Reply #87)


Response to bigtree (Reply #101)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:05 PM

105. there have been a SMALL handful of men that have done this and you are right....

it has nothing to do with you. when this poster stepped into it with your posts, though honestly i do not get what you are doing in this thread, i made the comment. wasnt really referring to you but the small group of the last 24 hours. i am going to self delete. it was wrong and i knew it when typing.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #105)


Response to bigtree (Reply #111)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:27 PM

114. lol... hugzz, i hear ya. leaving you alone. there is much more in this thread we are discussing

though.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #111)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:06 PM

129. Nope. You done good.

Apparently we're supposed to go complete hair on fire, today, right now and if you don't, THEN BY GAWD YOU'RE DEFENDING RAPE (which is exactly the opposite of what you did say).

I, for one, Bigtree, like your stance. And admire your DU demeanor. Yes we want the guilty punished.







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Response to Saboburns (Reply #129)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:50 PM

141. this is really offensive. very offensive when we hear a girl unconscious gang raped and have our

reaction and voice reduced to hair on fire. you are exactly the problem.

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Response to Saboburns (Reply #129)


Response to bigtree (Reply #145)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:15 PM

149. Poor, poor you


You are such a victim here....

Here's a big fat fucking clue: You are the one right off the bat who tried to censor what others were saying.

"Wait for the courts." Well, we rape victims have waited a long goddamned time for the courts.

A LOOOONG time.

The only reason there is action on this case is that outsiders put pressure on. The courts or LE didn't do SHIT.


And if we want to condemn the very PUBLIC tweets, videos and phone pics that people decided ON THEIR OWN to broadcast, suddenly we hate due process? No, we are reacting to PUBLIC postings. NOT private information.


You're funny - doing so many contortions in this thread trying to say you didn't say what we all know you said.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #149)


Response to bigtree (Reply #152)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:42 PM

155. Stop? Really? You've posted on this thread 5 x what I have

You've had ample opportunity to clear yourself.

And I will post as often as I like just as you have. And I see nothing better to do than to highlight the way rape is treated by some in this nation. It's a priority of mine. Perhaps YOU should go find another "standard" kegger to attend?

If you think this is "standard" partying in 2012; if you think we cannot condemn the very public admissions and videos and tweets that the criminal thugs made, you WILL and HAVE been confronted about those statements.

I see you are trying to be more understanding.

I accept that, but I will post as often as I like on this thread - just as you have.



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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #155)


Response to bigtree (Reply #159)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:59 PM

161. Twist what knife? Again - YOU are the victim?

WE are discussing the brutal abduction, torture and rape of a young woman. A 15 year old CHILD who was hauled to three separate parties, raped, sodomized, pissed on, kicked, hit, AND all of these lovely behaviors were broadcast to an entire school, videos of the rape being hosted on an adult football booster's website.

The perps even have a 12 minute video further exploiting and boasting about their crime, humilating this child beyond what seems humanly possible.

And her town let it happen, made these men feel so safe in raping they even broadcast their goddamn torture for all of us to see!

THIS is tragedy. THIS is sticking the knife in and twisting it. THIS is real pain and injustice.

Yeah, your callous words seem rather shocking in light of this horror.

I won't stop saying they were callous as long as you pretend you are the victim here.

You made an error in posting judgment. But you are no victim of anything but your own keyboard.




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #161)


Response to bigtree (Reply #163)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:11 PM

170. I was not aware that I was on your back



Nope.

Just checked.

Not on anybody's back here.

Check again, yourself, if you don't mind.

Maybe that's your conscience?


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #170)


Response to bigtree (Reply #176)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:45 PM

182. Bullying would be trying to force someone off the thread

as you have tried to do to me by teling me to stop, do something else, get off "my back" etc.

I'm here for the discussion, Baby. Not once have I said you shouldn't post in this thread.

Not once. If I had, as you have done to me, that may be bullying. But I'm not afraid to hash these things out.

I'm not afraid to discuss rape and our society. So why would I bully anyone else wanting to discuss it?


I think it would be wise to let the facts emerge in court and then make a more informed judgement than one based on sensationalistic details from what I believe was a standard (unsupervised) teen party.


You think t would be wise to not judge the teens, and you claimed it was a standard party.

And you have no clue why that was offensive? Or you do now, but anyone who was offended is now bullying?

Post all you like; your statement above offended me deeply. I've seen enough of these kids' work to know I don't need you to tell me whether or not I can pass judgment.

That's it.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #182)


Response to bigtree (Reply #190)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:10 PM

193. You don't think anything you've said in this thread has been offensive?

Let me highlight for you the words that look like personal attacks, from just one of your posts in this thread:

Well, you've been enough of a jackass on this board that i don't feel I have to justify myself to you on anything. You want to put yourself in the way of my response to that other poster? What a self-serving and idiotic thing to do. It's just fanning flames and looking for a cheap fight. Well, I've got news for you asshole, there's not a dimes worth of difference between my view and the one you purport to represent on this issue. So fuck off.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2132713

Have I misinterpreted your words? Because they look offensive to me.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #193)


Response to bigtree (Reply #190)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:13 PM

194. "You're not the boss of me!"



I was merely pointing out why your words seemed wrong to others. You've expressed your remorse and I said as much.

I have not excoriated you here by any means.

I tried to say it was offensive to me and why it was offensive to me, but all you can think about in this discussion is yourself. So, in your own vein, I will say "you don't get to tell me what's offensive to me." See how that works?

Either your words in post #1 were ill-advised - as you yourself have admitted in this thread a few times - or your words are completely harmelss as you claim in post 190 right now.

You want it both ways? And YOU want to talk about "taking someone seriously."





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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #194)


Response to bigtree (Reply #199)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:23 PM

202. Then why do you keep responding to my posts?



Although it would be nice to have a discussion, you obviously would rather attack me. That's your choice.

You continue to threaten and attack me, and I have not done either to you. YOU are the BULLY here.

You are on a discussion board with thousands of people reading and posting. If you want to be alone with your thoughts, go lock yourself in your room and start a blog.






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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #202)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:24 PM

203. here, let me take care of that replying thing

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #202)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:25 PM

204. There is far too much infighting going on in this thread.

We are all in agreement on what happened in Steubenville. Let's not descend into anarchy, okay everyone?

It does a disservice to the subject of this thread.

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Response to randome (Reply #204)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:35 PM

207. Huh?





If the OP is upset, I will honor the OP.

Otherwise, this is a DISCUSSION board, not nap time, not "make sure everyone feels all cozy and warm" time.

Right now, we are discussing the GANG RAPE of a 15-year-old.

The discussion helped at least one poster, because he may be more careful and THINK before he posts uninformed commentary in the future.










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Response to seabeyond (Reply #87)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:05 PM

104. How do you respect yourself knowing that you make shit up in every post?



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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #104)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:06 PM

108. history of posts with certain posters. nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #108)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:12 PM

109. More incoherence.

I've often wondered what a real-life, face to face conversation with you would be like. Interesting, to say the least, I'm sure.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #109)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:26 PM

150. The poster you defend - bigtree - claimed this was a "standard" teen party

If so, we are in deeper trouble than I thought. This gangrape of a 15-year-old is STANDARD partying in 2012? God-fucking DAMN!

The poster - bigtree - that you defend, said that we should "let the courts sort it out and not condemn the criminals based on sensationalist crap."

He or she SAID these things openly and proudly.

And seabeyond and others are saying: These criminals exposed themselves. The sensationalist aspects CAME FROM THEIR OWN PHONES and tweets! Nobody is assuming anything, as these criminal thug lowlifes shared the FACTS of their crime with us all - rather proudly as well.

I realize you were looking for a reason to attack seabeyond - bitterness in your words is very, very clear in my opinion - but you are defending someone who was completely incoherent on this case.

You never fail to amuse with your outrage, though. It's so hard to be a bittter victim, I suppose.


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #150)


Response to bigtree (Reply #153)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:46 PM

157. lol

I merely repeated your words.

You don't like what you said all of a sudden?

Retract your fucking post, bigtree, if you don't like the responses it got.


Everyone else knows what you said, everyone reads your post plain and clear.

"Standard kegger"

"Wait for the courts before condemning."

YOUR WORDS, not mine.




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #157)


Response to bigtree (Reply #162)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:09 PM

166. We all gotta do what we gotta do



Sometimes, when you dig yourself into a hole with your words, a retraction can get you out.

You continue to defend your honor, and I will continue to advocate for victims of rape - male and female - and I will continue to condemn rapists - ESPECIALLY when they broadcast their crimes so cruelly, and with the idea they will never be forced to pay for them.

Rape is an uncomfortable topic, and I suppose your first post merely highlighted how women are told to "shut up and wait for justice." That may not have been your intent, but it's an old attitude we are FED UP with.

We've waited a long time for justice for rape victims, bigtree, and the fact that there is no justice - a fact blatantly displayed by the tweets and videos these kids made bragging of their raping a 15-year old as if it was just another day in the life - makes shallow comments much more painful to read.

I don't care if people are uncomfortable about discussing rape. I don't care if it makes them want to do anything they can to distance themselves, to pretend it doesn't happen, to pretend the courts deal with it. I will call you on it when you minimize the horror of it.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #166)


Response to bigtree (Reply #174)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:35 PM

179. I never trashed you

, have not said one way or the other how you feel about rape except that you were telling others how THEY should feel about it.

What I said was that YOUR words - as you admit yourself - were shallow and not well thought out.

Surely you are intelligent and caring enough to know that rape victims have heard enough excuses, have heard enough "innocent until proven guilty even if there are videos," have heard "wait for the courts."

The outrage you hear is against those comments - not you as a person.

I'm glad you are able to understand why your comment were hurtful to others.

You claimed we shouldn't be condemning those young men based on sensationalist, unfactual stuff. And what people said was: We are condemning based on their own evidence they provided all of us. Then you admitted you didn't know these facts, so that is understandable, but it still points to someone who - without the facts - jumps to tell others how to feel or view criminals.

And I've had enough of well-meaning folks - who don't have all the facts - telling me what I must think and feel.

That's where the backlash came from.

Peace, and I am sure you are a fine person.

( I didn't like your WORDS. I don't even know anything about you, so I don't know if I like you or not )



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Response to bigtree (Reply #162)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:10 PM

168. No worries, bigtree.

What you stated, and what it was turned into is obvious for anyone willing to read. There's nothing wrong with introducing something that may be controversial .... it's a message board. We discuss.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #168)


Response to bigtree (Reply #178)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:57 PM

188. Hey, we've all done that! No crime there. And most of us don't have the grace to admit it. nt.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:46 AM

3. Inside the home of the high school football coach?

We didn't party with the coach. This is not a "standard" keg party.

Something is really, really rotten in Steubenville.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:47 AM

5. Absolutely.

In our town, the football team took great strides to make sure that the coach did not hear nary a peep about underage drinking during.

It CERTIANTLY would have never happend AT his home!

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:59 AM

15. Same here.

We washed out of state playoff contention my junior year because my coach suspended our star LB and 3 2-way starters for the last 2 games of the year for partying.

Not the school, not the state commission...the coach. Coach was more interested in producing quality men than wins...produced 14 D-IA football athletes and 2 NFL players in 25 years running what was a clean program in a dirty state.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:02 PM

19. Not THE coach--A VOLUNTEER coach. nt

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:04 PM

23. Not THE point....

I don't care if the person is a volunteer coach or paid employee of the school district. That person was an adult with responsibilities.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:05 PM

27. Oh well then...thank goodness it wasn't someone in a position of authority!

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:06 PM

28. In our district, they're held to the same standard as "faculty" coaches.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #3)


Response to bigtree (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:05 PM

26. It's not about the teens....

It's about an adult in a position of responsibility who was providing alcohol to minors. Teens do stupid stuff. An adult -- and a coach -- should be there to STOP them, not to encourage them.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #26)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:07 PM

32. yes. nt

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Response to bigtree (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:39 PM

62. You're making a false equivalence.

While illegal, underage drinking is potentially harmless. Often it proves otherwise, but on its own, it's not the worst thing a kid can do, although it remains illegal, and for good reason.

We are talking here about the commission of serious crimes, beginning with adult complicity in the delinquency of minors, rape, assault, kidnapping, and conspiracy.

Not the same thing at all. In this case, I would call the inclusion of alcohol an aggravating, rather than a mitigating, circumstance.

If it was just a party, it would never have made the news. Let's focus on the crimes here, not the presumption that "party" = "harmless fun."

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #62)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:43 PM

68. YEP.

.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #62)


Response to bigtree (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:57 PM

94. You didn't say "mitigating." I did.

My inferred take-away from your post was that teenage drinking isn't a big deal, and often is mere harmless fun. That's my interpretation of your post, and I disagree with that assessment, in the main.

MANY people suggest that drunkenness excuses or mitigates bad behavior. I disagree with that too.

Any questions?

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #94)


Response to bigtree (Reply #103)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:32 PM

117. Then what was the point of your post?

If every single reply to (what I consider) your insensitive post is a "misconstruction," a "projection" or a "misinterpretation," please DO clarify for us what you actually meant.

It was a "standard kegger?" Well, then the standards are wrong and need to be changed.

Something went "disturbingly wrong?" That's the understatement of the century. A young woman's life was ruined.

We should wait for "the facts to come out?" So the taped footage, photos, and tweets are not facts? Are you aware of the travesty that the prosecution of rape is in this country? There will be no more "facts" than the ones you have already seen. Law enforcement and the football apparatus will see to that, unless something is done.

But, please carry on with your cries of "projection!"

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #117)


Response to bigtree (Reply #123)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:02 PM

127. Well said, bigtree

I appreciate your taking the time to clarify your intention. These threads get very emotional and it is difficult sometimes to keep a clear head.

Sadly, many of us who are rape victims know that the likelihood of justice is slim, even in the best of circumstances. When you add the corruption of football culture, even those small chances seem to disappear. I urge you to read more about this case to discover how systemic the rot is in Steubenville. It's not a nice place. This town has had a dark underbelly for decades.

I know Ohio football culture firsthand from having spent a great deal of time in a town about 25 miles south of Steubenville. When the only thing your town has is football, you fight like a cornered wolverine to protect it. Sometimes that doesn't go so well, as we are seeing here. And it is long past the time that these abuses are brought to light. Can you have football without the corruption? I will defer to better minds than mine on this question.

Peace to you, bigtree.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #117)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:15 PM

134. 'A young woman's life was ruined.' That could be part of the problem there.

We don't know that her life was ruined. This in no way condones what happened nor does it exonerate anyone who was responsible or who 'turned the other way'.

But not everyone who goes through this comes out of it the same way. We can actually make things much worse for the woman by 'piling on' with assumptions.

Again, not condoning anything in the slightest here. Just pointing out something to consider.

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Response to randome (Reply #134)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:37 PM

136. I can't imagine it being otherwise, but I'll concede the point.

Perhaps my own vision is limited and my bias is showing. I don't know any rape survivors who claim anything other than that their experience was horrible and life-changing.

A good, if long read: We Were the Mulvaneys by Joyce Carol Oates. How rape can change an individual, a family, and a community.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #136)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:15 PM

147. And I can't imagine what it would be like to be raped so I'm only conjecturing.

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Response to randome (Reply #147)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:37 PM

154. You sure are


We don't know that her life isn't ruined.

Maybe long term she'll be okay.

But maybe having males drug you and haul you to three parties and use their penises as weapons on you - repeatedly - and piss on you, and send the pics all over, and make videos of raping you and gloat about it and not face any repercussions ( until now ) is just a great big old walk in the goddamned park and she'll be perfectly FINE.

She may have internal injuries that will keep her from bearing children. She may very well have become pregnant or acquired an STD. But those possibilities are just fluffy ideas - no reality there.

Some people's cold natures really sicken me beyond my human ability to express the disgust.


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #154)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:45 PM

156. can i hug you....

ah, i need the no bullshit, anger that we are all justified in feeling. and so does this girl.

thank you.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #156)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:50 PM

158. I'm hugging you back

This "oh, la-dee-da, rape is just some nebulous thing I'll never get...tweedly dee. tweedly dum" shit is unfucking believable.

and to all who know that rape is a horrific, awful, soul-killing experience.

Kudos to all who condemn those who feel so free to gangrape a child, they even broadcast the crime for all to see, and THEN further degrade the poor child in a twelve minute video!

And FUCK those who think we should just be good girls and "hush up and don't condemn those poor little lambs on the Football team!"




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #158)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:06 PM

164. Your anger is getting the better of you.

Why would I not admit that I would not understand what it's like to be raped? Just as I would not understand what it's like to go through life as a woman.

No one has said not to condemn 'those poor little lambs'. I think your anger is misplaced here.

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Response to randome (Reply #164)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:25 PM

175. You made the statement

after most of the facts are known about what happened to this child owing to the very public tweets and such her rapists made.

If you can still sit there straight-faced and say "Maybe her life isn't ruined" then you really are being obtuse, or is it cruelty?

You may not know for a fact what rape is like, but any human should be able to imagine how awful a gang rape would be. Imagine it happening to yourself. maybe you'd be perfectly fine getting gang-raped, cuz you are a hero or something? Can you imagine it for yourself, as horrible as it might be?

A fifteen-year-old is another story. You are an adult.

And I am not so blindly angry as you imagine or I'd be using a lot more curse words. I am thoroughly DISGUSTED.

But there's anger as well, and we should all have that anger in us. But you cannot make people put themselves in another's shoes, nor can you force some people to care about anything but themselves.









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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #175)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:56 PM

187. I said some people come through this better than others.

It's a fact. Neither of us knows how this girl feels right now. I'm not trying to diminish what she went through but neither am I trying to inflate it.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #158)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:10 PM

169. I have to admit, I am STUNNED anyone could say that this girl's life may not be ruined.

Really. How can anyone say this with a straight face? Seriously.

I am stunned that its here on this very board. Raped, violated, kidnapped, drugged, her naked body left on the front lawn of some guy's house, getting pissed on - all of it filmed and publicly broadcasted. Yet somehow, some DUer thinks this may be empowering! Or something.

So disturbing.

I've been following your posts Tsiyu. Stay strong.



And don't ever let anyone tell you to shut up.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #169)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:18 PM

172. it is JUST sex. how can that ruin a girls life, be real.

heavy sarcasm.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #172)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:54 PM

186. That is not what I said.

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Response to randome (Reply #186)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:00 PM

189. no. but reality is many men really do not want to think too deeply about this cause it is painful.

it just is. my husband does not want to get into it. he doesnt want to hear it. he wants to be happy.

fuck, i do too. but this is our reality. and because i am willing to feel the pain of it, it makes me a better mother. most men in my life do not want to look and feel too much. it makes them angry and sick and makes them feel really really bad.

so, what a lot of men do is reduce it to just sex.

and it is so much more.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #189)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:05 PM

191. Deflection I understand.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #169)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:18 PM

173. Amazing, isn't it?

Some people sure seem disconnected from reality.

Thanks for your words. I know you have a child this age. It must be chilling to read the callous statements of some on this board. It's chilling to me.



And don't worry, many have tried to shut me up, few have succeeded!


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #173)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:23 PM

201. I do. 16 yrs old. I shudder when I read stuff like this. My girl is completely wild.

I fear for her even as I'm fighting like hell to keep her safe. She's lucky in that she's got loving parents, her older sister, involved grandparents and a slew of cousins, aunts and uncles to surround her wherever her path leads her, if it goes off the rails, she'll have a safety net to catch the pieces.

Some of the posters are blowing my skirts up though, I have to admit. Got told upthread to "fuck off jackass" for objecting to being smeared as "going nuts" without cause.

Its always an education here on DU. Keep on keeping on...


More hugs coming your way!



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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #201)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:28 PM

205. Yes, the bully here has spoken up often

love the "fuckoff jackass" comment. A real manly man there!

I hope your girl matures and learns. She sounds like an intelligent kid who just hasn't figured the world out yet. There is hope for her yet!

Another to you. It's a rough fight but what else can we do but throw ourselves in there and take the beating? If even one person gets enlightenment, it will be for good.

Love you woman.


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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:59 PM

97. This was at the home of a VOLUNTEER football coach.From what I can tell,

it is likely a volunteer coach not far removed from high school himself, a former player on the team. That is how a high school football team acquires 19 coaches.

The big picture here is that this crappy, long-dying town has nothing much going for it other than the high school football team. The identity of the town is so tied in with the football team to make it an unhealthy situation for most involved. The self-esteem of the teens and many people in the area is dependent on the success of the football team. Everywhere these players go, probably year-round they have townspeople praising them for their actions on the football field. Pretty soon these boys are getting away with anything. They better not this time. Any kid who was a witness and did nothing to help the girl should be prosecuted. The kid in the Ohio State t-shirt (from the video) should be shunned. The kid shooting the video and egging him on needs to be dealt with in some manner as well. I know this is rambling but I am so angry right now I don't know what else to do.

I sure as hell hope the producers of 60 Minutes are on this story. The people of this town who are denying their boys (more than just the two currently being prosecuted) did anything wrong need a reality check. Maybe more national exposure of this cesspool of a town will help bring justice.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #97)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:19 PM

112. As a former VOLUNTEER football coach...

providing alcohol to kids -- particularly to athletes -- isn't cool. In my town, I'd be arrested and banned from future participation in youth sports. Now you're right that the appearance is that Stuebenville looks the other way when it comes to their athletes, and that crap needs to stop. I hope it stops with the entire coaching staff being fired (they HAD to know this was going on) and the program being suspended for a season.

As to prosecuting the witnesses who did nothing, there are states that allow for that, but I don't know if Ohio is one of them.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:46 AM

4. This sound disturbingly akin to "boys will be boys"

Just saying...

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #4)


Response to bigtree (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:58 AM

14. Yes, most teen parties involve both boys and girls

Many involve alcohol and drugs. Most don't involve boys gang raping girls

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Response to cali (Reply #14)


Response to bigtree (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:07 PM

31. you don't seem to realize that knife wounds

and deaths at teenage parties are not the norm- even at teenage parties where there is "free-flowing" alcohol.

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Response to cali (Reply #31)


Response to bigtree (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:38 PM

180. I need you to know that no one in my school community thought of stabbings as a standard

party game. If such a thing had happened once, we'd have all been on permanent house arrest. Your parents and your community apparently were fine with this shit?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #180)


Response to bigtree (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:07 PM

33. Where did you happen to go to school?

Because NOTHING of your experience is indicitive of anything remotely CLOSE to my experience in high school.

Stabbings? Assaults? A *FEW* deaths?!

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #33)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:10 PM

37. Same here

went to lots of drug and alcohol teen parties, my 25 year old son sure attended his share- and in a rough and tumble area, but no knife fights and the deaths, tragic as they were, were all car accidents.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #33)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:18 PM

43. I now see that we are dealing with someone who has a very skewed sense of reality in this matter.

Ignoring him/her is probably the best option.

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Response to demmiblue (Reply #43)


Response to bigtree (Reply #54)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:34 PM

58. right. everyone is misrepresenting what you said. sure.

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Response to cali (Reply #58)


Response to bigtree (Reply #75)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:00 PM

100. Well, after all it was just a "standard keg party" right...?

Lots of standard things happening, lots of standard crimes being comitted, lots of crimes you participated in as a youth you've owned up to.

How are you being misrepresented when you "understand" all this because they were "experiences" of your own as a youth.

"YOUTHFUL INDISGRESSION" some would say...

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #100)


Response to cali (Reply #58)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:05 PM

106. YEP.

.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #54)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:37 PM

60. you'd also do better if you didn't misrepresent what I've said here

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #33)


Response to bigtree (Reply #52)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:38 PM

61. I would encourage anyone with similar experiences to please chime in...

Methinks that you are in an exceptional minority here, bigtree.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #61)


Response to Earth_First (Reply #61)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:17 PM

148. This is opretty much how it was growing up in Queens in the late 1980's and early 1990's

Keg parties, fights, brawls, people getting cut up or batted down. Generally, this wasn't at houses so much as in the large public parks.

No deaths so far as I know, though. And I never saw anything like that this Steubenville craziness, and the guys I hung out with would beat down that whole team like it was nothing.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #33)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:51 PM

124. More than a few deaths, actually, is what bigtree said.

Please read the post again.

"We endured many assaults and more than a few deaths in my youth."

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Response to bigtree (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:03 PM

22. an unconscious girl was dragged to 3 parties to be sexually assaulted. those FACTS are out.

they cannot be shoved out of view or hidden anymore. they trried. cannot happen.

so reality is, with an unconscious girl taken from party, after party to be RAPED by boys will result in people being ANGRY. and i gotta wonder about those telling us not to be ANGRY.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #22)


Response to bigtree (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:08 PM

34. and i really do not get your perspective either. a coach should not have booze, leave party

unsupervised, allow and encourage immoral behavior. and all of that is part of the element of this case.

i really do not get what you are defending.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #34)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:39 PM

63. I read one of parties was at the home

Of the district attorney whose son is on the football team and whose name is in the videos. Also the assaulted girl was believed to have been given a date rape drug.

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Response to riverbendviewgal (Reply #63)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:45 PM

73. yes, further, the prosecutor, mother talked the raped girl and her parents to not take it further

without letting parents know she was a parent to one of the rape crew and that it all started in her house.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #73)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:08 PM

132. Her behavior was absolutely inexcusable.

State prosecutors are now in charge. Two women, I think, who specialize either juvie cases or sex crimes.

I have the feeling that they mean business.

Unfortunately, very few people are talking, and it seems that quite a few people probably know a lot.

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Response to amandabeech (Reply #132)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:54 PM

143. i hope they mean business, good to know. and like you say in previous posts

i hope it amounts to be disbarred.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #143)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:06 PM

146. She needs to be removed from her post and prosecuted for obstructing justice.

This lady also recently went to WVU to help cover up the misdeeds of another ex-Steubenville football player now playing for WVU.

A real piece of work, this lady, if I can call her that.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #34)


Response to bigtree (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:09 PM

36. No one's "gobsmacked" by alcohol at a teen party, or that teens throw parties with alcohol.

The point, which is bolded in the OP, is that it was at a coach's house.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:29 PM

51. No, dammit, I AM gobsmacked!

Gobsmacked that people supposedly in charge of the development of children see nothing wrong with providing them with illegal substances. Goddamn right I'm gobsmacked. It's a fucking CRIME. Yeah, I have a problem with coaches and teachers committing crimes.

Now, what perspective am I missing here?

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Response to bigtree (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:48 PM

82. .

'I think it would be wise to let the facts emerge in court and then make a more informed judgement than one based on sensationalistic details from what I believe was a standard (unsupervised) teen party.'

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Response to bigtree (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:48 PM

121. I don't think anyone is surprised by teens drinking alcohol at a party

I don't think anyone is surprised by teens drinking alcohol at a party; however, you could of course direct me to the relevant post if that indeed has been stated (I'd hate to think you're "misrepresenting" what someone said... that would compel us to believe you hold others to a higher standard than you hold yourself, as you've so righteously defended your own person from that on this thread many times)

I do however, think many people are surprised... "gob-smacked" even, by a gang-rape and its cover-up.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #121)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:53 PM

125. I

am shocked at the size of the cover-up.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #121)


Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:51 AM

9. Not especially, no

sounds more like the coach should be told his services are no longer required and also like he should be charged with multiple counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor. At minimum. If not a charge as an accessory to the crime that was obviously committed. (Gang-raping drugged girls is not a standard part of high-school parties where I come from.)

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Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:53 AM

10. Same for me, but I have a problem here.

The party was as the home of an assistant coach. Was the coach fired? No.

When a reporter tried to interview the head coach about all of this (the party, the rape, the conduct by his staff, the failure to respond to criminal misconduct by his staff-member), he threatened her (as reported last night on Anderson Cooper 360, substitute hosted by Ashleigh Banfield...so, no link.)...there is an institutional problem here.

No accountability by the people society should be expecting to be accountable.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:10 PM

133. The coach threatened the reporter and those close to her.

What a sweetheart.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:38 PM

208. “You’re going to get yours. And if you don’t get yours, somebody close to you will.”

Approached in November to be interviewed about the case, Saccoccia said he did not “do the Internet,” so he had not seen the comments and photographs posted online from that night. When asked again about the players involved and why he chose not to discipline them, he became agitated.

“You made me mad now,” he said, throwing in several expletives as he walked from the high school to his car.

Nearly nose to nose with a reporter, he growled: “You’re going to get yours. And if you don’t get yours, somebody close to you will.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/sports/high-school-football-rape-case-unfolds-online-and-divides-steubenville-ohio.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

According to the article, Coach Reno Saccoccia threatened reporters.

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Response to Jamastiene (Reply #208)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:35 PM

222. Thanks Jama, that's the quote.

It's reprehensible. It should have been the last thing he said before getting fired.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:02 PM

20. There's a big difference between a teen kegger in a cornfield or quarry and at a coach's house.

But I suspect you know that.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:16 PM

42. A kegger with the coach's blessing?

I can hardly believe he didn't know what was happening in his own home.

I have a serious problem with anyone:

1) Providing alcohol to minors, or allowing minors to consume alcohol with their tacit consent.

2) Failing to supervise the behavior that results when you infuse minors with alcohol.

"...what I believe was a standard (unsupervised) teen party."


This is the saddest statement I have read about this incident on this board so far.

As to making a "judgement", in today's world of social media, and the fact that the evidence was posted by the perpetrators themselves, kind of hard NOT to come to a conclusion.

But then, some people looked at the Rodney King video and claimed the beating was "justified".

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Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:18 PM

44. Then there's something radically wrong with the "standards."

The drinking age is 21 years. When I was in HS, it was 18 years. I did not attend parties where alcohol was served until I was of legal age. That was the norm in MY town. Parents didn't allow it. Although there were probably exceptions, most of the kids in my school stuck to the rules.

I don't know where or when this flagrant rule-flouting became the norm, but it is disturbing, and it is sick.

If people like you, bigtree, are willing to shrug your shoulders and say, "ah, well, kids..." then these horrific incidents will continue to occur. Shame on you. it's not likely to change if no one does anything to change it. Fortunately, not everyone's like you.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #44)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:23 PM

48. I don't think anyone is 'shrugging their shoulders'.

But drinking IS the norm among teenagers. Denying it won't help. When I was a teen, we had keg parties in an isolated part of the park. Thirty or forty of us. We would make out then drink too much and get sick or pass out and the mounties would come by at 2am to wake us up and tell us to go home.

Flaunting the rules is a normal part of teenaged life.

But the adults who actively hosted this kind of activity should lose their jobs and be prosecuted, no doubt about that.

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Response to randome (Reply #48)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:33 PM

55. It's the adults' job to discourage, not encourage drinking.

When my kid tried it, she suffered the full force of my wrath as well as her nasty hangover. (Actually, I'm pretty sure the hangover was worse; nothing like a good object lesson). Hasn't happened since.

As parents, we have the foreknowledge that terrible things can and do happen to drunk teenagers.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #55)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:45 PM

71. I agree. I don't expect my daughters to ever get so plastered they don't know what's happening.

I can't imagine being that drunk again for myself. Just not interested any longer.

I could be wrong about my daughters, of course. But not every teenager has a caring parent behind them. Many WILL drink alcohol. Many WILL bend the rules or even break them. It's human nature.

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Response to randome (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:47 PM

79. but this girl was drugged. not drunk. and i havent had any issue with oldest.

wait and see with younger son.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #79)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:50 PM

86. Yeah. I know. Things never got that out of hand at the keggers I attended.

Even if we were to allow that it was okay for a coach to host a party -it's not but allow that for the sake of argument- then the coach(es) should have been watching every single kid at that party like a hawk.

They didn't. No argument from me that someone should be prosecuted for this.

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Response to randome (Reply #86)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:51 PM

89. agreed at the very least. but, what i gather in this instance is the men/adults were full particpant

in the corruption of it all. maybe not actually seeing the drunk girl, but in their relationship with these kids.

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Response to randome (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:42 PM

210. There is a difference between getting drunk and being drugged.

In this case, the girl was drugged, not drunk.

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Response to Jamastiene (Reply #210)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:03 PM

216. Right. I forgot about that.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:41 PM

66. Funny never had parties where the coaches were there

breaking the law, but you go on with your bad self! Your last sentence is so revealing!

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Response to Rex (Reply #66)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:50 PM

83. my oldest has never gone to parties... not his style. yea. youngest much more social. BUT, IF

my child ever went to a house, that i knew the parents were there, and they allowed booze.... i would press charges. that simple. so parents, beware. cause some of us prudes will cause you problems.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #83)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:57 PM

96. Can you believe how disingenuous some are here in this thread?

It is sick.

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Response to Rex (Reply #96)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:16 PM

110. it is a hard one. though i know too many parents that do not seem to hold to the same expectation i

have for my kids. they are also the ones that i keep an i on their kids. and make boys aware i do not trust the childs abilities in choices. that they are to be aware in case they are walking toward trouble. geeez, the reality is, my kids tend to just not hang out with those kids, well aware of the problems that can happen. they are too good, all on their own, making their own choices. thank goodness.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #110)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:28 PM

115. Good idea to keep an eye on the troublemakers

I remember in HS, they were the first to drag you down with them! Sounds like you raised some smart, sensible young-uns!

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Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:45 PM

70. Have you seen the video made by one of the participants?

Have you read their tweets?

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Response to yardwork (Reply #70)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:46 PM

77. And yet we are told to wait for all the facts...

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Response to Rex (Reply #77)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:37 PM

135. I guess since these were not

admitted into court as evidence, they are rendered meaningless.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:46 PM

78. same here, lucky I didn't die. With todays internet exposure those days are over.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:32 PM

118. were your keggers at the coach's house? nt

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Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:44 PM

138. Someone sounds guilty.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:49 AM

7. is this the guy that had child porn, camera in the girls bathroom? or the coach let kids view porn

on his laptop in the office?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:07 PM

29. Not the coach. A VOLUNTEER coach.

THE coach is the one who won't suspend jerks like the ones who posted pics and comments online. THE coach is the one who claims that because he doesn't do social media, he has no "direct" knowledge of those postings and therefore no reason to suspend players who posted such things.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #29)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:11 PM

39. there are 19 fuckin coaches for this team. an assistant coach would supply booze, drugs and porn

for the boys.

another on the booster (and i am wondering if a "volunteering" coach) had the pictures and video of the rape on his web page and also had pictures of girls from a bathroom in his email or computer.

hence my question.

these are the MEN that had a relationship and influential role on the boys.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:59 PM

98. seabeyond, I am not trying to minimize the responsibility--or the

Last edited Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:54 PM - Edit history (3)

authority--of the coach who is responsible for this particular evil. I just worry about giving the bad guys a chance to "Rather" us on assigning guilt for a series of crimes of such viciousness.

The official head coach--the one most people would identify as "the" coach--is guilty of truly evil behavior, too--just as evil as what this coach has done, as far as I am concerned. He Pontius Pilates the whole thing, claiming that since he doesn't "do" social media, he cannot punish anyone by suspending them from the team, because he did not personally see any of those posts.

What happened to the story about GWB's AWOL is just the most obvious case of "Rathering." Recently, Wayne LaPierre tried to use errors about the type of weapons described in articles about the NewTown massacre as a way to discredit those who spoke out against the proliferation of assault weapons and large capacity clips, magazines, or whatever the "correct" term is. There was a whole thread here on DU correcting the terminology because, apparently, people were conflating the two terms. (I know nothing of guns, so I can't be clearer about this confusion of terminology.)

I fear that if we are not careful about identifying the individuals responsible for all of the different evil and criminal actions, then those who want to sweep it all under the rug will get an opportunity to "Rather" the situation. They will say that since Coach Reno did not commit this particular act, yet he seems to be the one being accused of it, then anything else he is accused of can be dismissed. Or they will say that since he didn't commit this act, the one he did commit is less serious, so it should not be used as a reason to force him out of his job.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #98)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:24 PM

113. i get you. the head coach has his own garbage. but, i have read about so many other adults that

are connected with these kids. and that is what i wanted to bring up, so people understand there are a lot of adults involved without a moral compass, teaching these boys. they get ownership in it.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #113)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:49 PM

183. Absolutely! nt

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:02 PM

21. Hope all the parents "hosting" these parties are punished, in addition to the perps

and accessories. You do not give alcohol to minors. THIS IS WHY.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:18 PM

45. I see a major civil suit

in the future. The criminal justice system may turn a blind eye, but these people will have a hell of a time defending against a civil suit.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #45)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:57 PM

95. Agreed.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:10 PM

38. If any adults knew, they are in a lot of trouble.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:15 PM

40. As they should be.

Any parent, regardless of ties to the school, the community or otherwise should be concerned about the reprecussions of minors drinking at their home.

REGARDLESS if they know about it or not.

There was a REASON why we would have field parties on Friday/Saturday nights, because very few of my peers had parents that would allow such activities to happen at their home.

By and large, less than 10% of the parties we actually attended in high school were actually at someone's home.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:00 PM

99. I'm starting to think that a much smaller list would include those parents who didn't know. nt.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:23 PM

47. Big, fat, fucking irony.

I know Steubenville. I've been there many times. The main highway runs along the Ohio River. At a certain stoplight, you can't help but see, and study, and contemplate (it's a long traffic light) the giant (and I do mean giant) billboard warning parents about the penalties for permitting underage drinking.

What a fucking joke.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:46 PM

76. that would awesome to send CNN

They are reporting this story on their home page today with big picture.

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Response to riverbendviewgal (Reply #76)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:50 PM

122. I'll see if hub has a photo. He photographs everything.

It's right opposite the big EORWA "water onion," which always made me point and laugh when we drove past.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:56 PM

144. Which intersection? Maybe we can grab a street view photo from Google maps n/t

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Response to KurtNYC (Reply #144)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:28 PM

151. Intersection of Rtes 7 and I470

Just north of Bellaire. Haven't been there for awhile, and I know they get changed. But it's worth checking. It was a pretty common billboard along well traveled routes.

Edited for poor memory.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:40 PM

65. As an Ohioan who works with children,

I know there is severe punishment for parents who host underage drinking parties. There is a program supported by the Drug-Free Action Alliance entitled "Parents Who Host Lose the Most". You cannot give alcohol to anyone under 21 even with other parent permission. The maximum fines are 6 months in jail and/or $1000 fine and the parent can be sued by anyone if someone is hurt or there is damaged property due to the alcohol involvement. Property & money can even be confiscated. I cannot imagine that would also not apply to other adults, especially someone in a supervisory role such as a coach. I hope the maximum sentences are meted out to all adults & juveniles in this cruel & disgusting episode.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:45 PM

74. That is sad, they could have been stopped

but I guess there were no responsible adults around that cared enough.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:51 PM

88. ...another angle to this: a party with 50+ guests creates quite a scene

When I was in high school, there was well more than one occasion in which the Sheriff would visit to respond to excessive noise, excessive side street parking, etc. etc.

So where was the Sheriff in all this mele?

How does the Sheriff just casually turn a blind eye to this scene where underage drinking is ocurring.

Mind you, this isn't just a dozen kids sitting around a bonfire or pool on a Friday night.

This was DOZENS of kids using the home of a football coach to consume alcohol illegally.

Where was the Sheriff in all this?

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #88)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:27 PM

218. When it's one of the football coaches and star football players guess it's the old boys network...

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:07 PM

130. For anyone still confused about what this OP is about...

... I recommend watching the 12:39 "Leaked Steubenville Big Red Rape Video" at the following link:

http://prinniefied.com/wp/collateral-damage/

If you're not thoroughly disgusted, you're not paying attention.

TYY

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:07 PM

131. It's no wonder where those boys got the idea

 

That their actions were okay. Our culture is deeply diseased.

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Response to Kooljas (Reply #131)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:53 PM

142. Ahh the old video game, Rock and Roll excuse.

which is pure bullshit.

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Response to trumad (Reply #142)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:46 PM

212. video games/movies are fake, porn is real...

I'm not saying porn is good or bad. Probably some is not harmful and some is exploitative. I am no saint, and certainly no prude.

But the ubiquity of hardcore internet porn, gangbangs/anal/cumshots etc etc for free to any hormone-raging 13-year-old boy who is probably learning about sex for the first time through this material, definitely raises some questions...

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Response to trumad (Reply #142)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 02:06 PM

224. You don't think mass media plays a part in molding society?

 

What kind of fantasy world do you inhabit?

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Response to Kooljas (Reply #224)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 02:17 PM

227. What kind of fantasy world do I inhabit?

Dungeons and Dragons, Halo, Grand Theft Auto.

But guess what---it's fantasy

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:44 PM

181. Parents

 

This is why we as parents need to be stricter, I have friends who worry about being the kids best friend. Bunch of idiots. Be a parent.

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Response to Donfini (Reply #181)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:49 PM

184. "worry about being the kids best friend" so true. i told kids years ago, i am not here to be your

friend. i am your mama. why would i give up that role to be a mere friend. i am so much more.

my kids appreciate the strictness. my oldest says, on the one hand, you are the toughest mom i know out of all my friends. on the other, the most laid back. building the foundation comes the toughness. life... the laid back. but, i can be laid back because i did the building first.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #184)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:52 PM

215. +1

" i am not here to be your friend"

cant count the times I have said the same.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:16 PM

223. this football coach allowed the rapist to continue playing after video exposed the entire event

 


it was on youtube, but the crime was 'under investigation' for a month so he could keep playing football.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022132583

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 02:11 PM

225. Not a surprise. We need to get at the root of this problem tho...

 

Lots of talk about irresponsible behavior on the part of the town, school and adults - and much of it shocking.

HOWEVER, the problem still remains, we have an all out misogyny problem - in the US, in the world, etc.

We have a RAPE problem

There is no excuse for it. Whether the rapist is drunk, high, misunderstood, bipolar, ADHD, smart, stupid, a jock, a nerd, a Christian, a Muslim, a Hindu...

Rape is wrong

We don't teach empathy in our culture, we expect people to just have it, and not too much, mind you! That gets in the way of Capitalism!

You can't solve this problem overnight

But you can start solving it - and it begins with empathy

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Response to Taverner (Reply #225)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 02:16 PM

226. You are absolutely correct

I am watching Steubenville and how this will all resolve. Will it be a forgotten case when the MSM is tired of reporting it.

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