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Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:45 AM

URGENT: If You Believe in Homeopathic Therapies for Pets, PLEASE READ THIS

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by HappyMe (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Story at-a-glance
It seems the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) is on a fast track to kill off the practice of complementary/alternative/holistic veterinary medicine.

Fast on the heels of their recent anti-raw pet food position statement, they are now about to jam through a similar resolution discouraging the practice of homeopathy for pets.

The anti-homeopathy resolution is especially peculiar, since it arrived at the AVMA through a procedural back door and is based solely on an anonymously authored 32-page white paper that displays the stunning bias of the writer along with an abundance of misinformation.

If you would like not only veterinary homeopathy, but all alternative veterinary therapies to remain available for your pet, we encourage you to contact the AVMA immediately and voice your concerns about this latest resolution, and an overall trend we are seeing toward discouraging the practice of all types of holistic veterinary medicine.

****************************

More info and contact links:

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/01/04/homeopathic-therapy.aspx?e_cid=20130104_PetsNL_art_1

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Reply URGENT: If You Believe in Homeopathic Therapies for Pets, PLEASE READ THIS (Original post)
gateley Jan 2013 OP
PatSeg Jan 2013 #1
jberryhill Jan 2013 #2
gateley Jan 2013 #5
PatSeg Jan 2013 #10
jmowreader Jan 2013 #24
Big Blue Marble Jan 2013 #54
William Seger Jan 2013 #57
William Seger Jan 2013 #41
Deep13 Jan 2013 #3
gateley Jan 2013 #6
Electric Monk Jan 2013 #9
Jackpine Radical Jan 2013 #52
Scootaloo Jan 2013 #13
Big Blue Marble Jan 2013 #55
Scootaloo Jan 2013 #63
originalpckelly Jan 2013 #29
Tracer Jan 2013 #36
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #43
rbixby Jan 2013 #59
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #66
Raine Jan 2013 #4
eShirl Jan 2013 #7
Electric Monk Jan 2013 #8
adieu Jan 2013 #17
jberryhill Jan 2013 #20
originalpckelly Jan 2013 #31
surrealAmerican Jan 2013 #67
ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #53
jberryhill Jan 2013 #58
ZombieHorde Jan 2013 #62
GoCubsGo Jan 2013 #47
cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #11
Major Nikon Jan 2013 #32
sakabatou Jan 2013 #12
Scootaloo Jan 2013 #14
adieu Jan 2013 #16
adieu Jan 2013 #15
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #18
adieu Jan 2013 #56
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #19
dkhbrit Jan 2013 #21
Mona Jan 2013 #22
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #42
Mona Jan 2013 #49
AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #51
Ford_Prefect Jan 2013 #23
Democracyinkind Jan 2013 #26
longship Jan 2013 #25
Archae Jan 2013 #27
SidDithers Jan 2013 #28
LineReply .
Berlum Jan 2013 #30
hobbit709 Jan 2013 #33
Codeine Jan 2013 #34
SidDithers Jan 2013 #35
Ford_Prefect Jan 2013 #37
MineralMan Jan 2013 #38
SidDithers Jan 2013 #39
MineralMan Jan 2013 #40
FarCenter Jan 2013 #44
Arugula Latte Jan 2013 #45
rusty fender Jan 2013 #46
cleanhippie Jan 2013 #48
Mona Jan 2013 #50
gateley Jan 2013 #61
rbixby Jan 2013 #60
yawnmaster Jan 2013 #64
obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #65
HappyMe Jan 2013 #68

Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:04 AM

1. Alternative therapies

are always a threat for big Pharma. They have tried for decades to discredit vitamin supplements and homeopathy for humans. Now veterinary medicine has become a major cash cow. Not everything in life is about PROFIT or at least it shouldn't be.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:08 AM

2. Do homeopathy and alternative treatment operate at a loss?

I mean, I assume I've been paying the "at cost" price for my dog's distance reiki treatments.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:42 AM

5. And even more threatened now since more and more people are willing to give

other therapies a try. That's why they're sneaking in through the back door, I think.

The FDA (well, big Agra/Pharma) tried to make it impossible to use stevia as a sweetener, it was dangerous! But when Coke and Pepsi/Cargil decided they were watching too much money go from their "safe" artificial sweeteners towards more natural options, well gee, all of a sudden it wasn't so dangerous any more.

And we know this has happened countless times in countless areas.

It's always the money. Always.

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Response to gateley (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:12 AM

10. It has been going on for decades

When I go to the doctor, I'm starting to feel like I use to when I went to Firestone for tires. I shouldn't have to second guess every test or medication a doctor prescribed because of a profit motive. There was a time not so long ago where the medical profession actually put "healing" first. When I was a child, health insurance was actually nonprofit and anything medically related couldn't advertise their services. It was called integrity.

I know some really good doctors who are part of a system they have no control over and they've been encouraged to upsell. They aren't usually good at it, so I can tell when it isn't sincere and they can tell that I know it as well. They just wanted to be doctors, not sales people.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:09 AM

24. Homeopathy deserves to be discredited

As Sam Jackson said in Formula 51, "it's what we call a Placebo. It's anything you want it to be."

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:02 PM

54. How can homeopathics be explained as placebos for animals?

You have to believe in something for the placebo effect to work.
Animals do not believe in any kind of medical treatment.

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Response to Big Blue Marble (Reply #54)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:28 PM

57. Easy: There isn't any demonstrable effect that needs explaining

That's why the AVMA is taking this position.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:43 AM

41. PROFIT, eh? Homeopathic "medicine" costs $1.29 a gallon at Safeway

How much are you paying?

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:17 AM

3. So they are against fraud in animal medicine.

If only authorities were as diligent when it came to humans.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:44 AM

6. It has nothing to do with fraud. It has to do with money.

They don't care what we do to ourselves as long as we're not taking money away from those who have the lobbyists swarming DC. If they're losing too much of the pie, this is what they do.

It's always the money.

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Response to gateley (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:05 AM

9. You do have a point there, but how do we know you're not just a shill for big accupuncture?

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:52 PM

52. Are you just trying to needle Gately?

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Response to gateley (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:43 AM

13. Yes, Big Veterinary is out to get you.

No, it's because you're a gullible mark being flanneled by frauds and quacks who sense you are a fool in need of having some money parted from you.

Homeopathy for pets, are you fucking serious?

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:04 PM

55. And how much fraud is in big pharma drugs? N/T

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Response to Big Blue Marble (Reply #55)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:58 PM

63. Considerably less than homeopathy, acupuncture and aromtherapy.

Was that a real question?

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Response to gateley (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:25 AM

29. Homeopathy is not natural medicine it is a placebo.

If homeopathy is right, then you can water down Kool-Aid and it will taste sweeter.

It is not true from the perspective of basic chemistry, and for that reason fails as a theory.
Herbal medicine and homeopathy and not the same. Herbal medicine may in fact work, though it may be dangerous if knowledge about herb in question is not complete. It is at least based on real things.

Homeopathy is not. It is horseshit 1000 times diluted and shaken.

Homeopathy at one time was better than real medicine because real medicine's roots come from dangerous bullshit, not just harmless bullshit like homeopathy.

It was a theory conceived during the time of the humor theory of medicine. In comparison, people who receive homeopathic treatments were better off.

Today this is not true, and not getting your animals to vets is a bad thing.

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Response to originalpckelly (Reply #29)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:36 AM

36. We got our dog from a Homeopathic shelter.

They had all sorts of rules and regulations they wanted us to follow, but the weirdest one was that they only wanted our dog to have bottled water!

Bottled water? The hell.

I drink the water that comes right out of the damn faucet and so does my dog.

We are currently fostering a pup from that shelter that is having a lot of trouble with a dislocating knee cap. I'm sure that the shelter management would throw some homeopathic meds at him, rather than get him the operation he surely needs.

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Response to Tracer (Reply #36)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:54 AM

43. I'm going to stop calling it homeopathy and start calling it water fetish.

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Response to gateley (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:28 PM

59. How much money do you suppose the homeopaths are making? I bet their margins are even bigger!

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #3)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:13 PM

66. +1

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:19 AM

4. THANKS so much for this info and the link! nt

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:00 AM

7. What's next, an anti-astrology resolution?

Closed-minded greedy animal doctors.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:04 AM

8. Q: My dog got hit by a car and broke his foot, what should I do? A: Have you tried aromatheropy?

The placebo effect doesn't seem to work as well with pets, oddly enough.

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:49 AM

17. I would imagine the placebo effect

would work just as well with animals. It's just that you need to provide the placebo outcome demonstrations.

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Response to adieu (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:13 AM

20. My iguana is a die hard skeptic, then

But my hamster swears by coffee enemas

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:32 AM

31. My dog is down with all that hippie shit.

Fucking thing smells like incense everywhere she goes. Even has a peace sign dog tag. Let's her hair grow long. Damn hippies corrupted my dog.

She even refuses to chase after squirrels, tells me we should live in peace with other animals.

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Response to originalpckelly (Reply #31)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:21 PM

67. You should have never named her "Patchouli".

What were you thinking?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:00 PM

53. I use to date your hamster,

and I know for a fact that your hamster is just a pervert.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #53)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:41 PM

58. It was after dating you that it needed the enemas


So, pot, kettle, etc.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #58)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:54 PM

62. I was an inocent lad before I met that hamster.

Craziest church party ever.

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:49 AM

47. BINGO!!!

This is not about "Big Pharma". It's about people who don't know what the hell they're doing, treating their animals with stuff that may or may not work. My veterinarian uses "homeopathic" products if she knows they will help her patients. But, I would never give my cat ANYTHING that my vet has not approved. I wonder how many animals die because their know-it-all-know-nothing owners decided to play veterinarian.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:12 AM

11. We can give ourselves quack medicine, but please give pets real medicine

Pets don't have a choice. They cannot give informed consent to be endangered by quackery, and should be given legitimate medical treatment.

The same goes for children... like the children of Christian Scientists and anti-vaccination nuts.

The only human being who should ever be given bogus medical treatment is an adult who really wants bogus medical treatment.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:36 AM

32. I would add that this type of quackery has even less chance of working in pets

At least human quackery can rely on the placebo effect.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:20 AM

12. I don't know if it works in pets, but for humans

homeopathy is nothing more than a sugar pill, IMO.

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Response to sakabatou (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:45 AM

14. Actually it's water.

Water that you have to shake vigorously to "activate" and "align" and all sorts of other complete nonsense.

it's prayer for people who think church is hokey.

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Response to sakabatou (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:47 AM

16. Highly, highly diluted sugar pill

So much so that there's no sugar in that pill.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:46 AM

15. Homeopathy is the medical world's biggest scam

The bottom line is that homeopathy does not work as intended, or unintended. Whether you subscribe to the notion of pharmaceuticals is the cure-all or not, homeopathy is definitely not the solution

Understand what homeopathy claims to do. It claims that minuscule amounts of a drug will cause the non-active parts of the medicine, say the water containing the supposed drug, to have a trace record of the drug upon it, and that will provide the positive medicinal qualities desired.

Sorry, but that is plain and simple quack medicine. Whether you believe in taking drugs or not (I rarely take any medicine), homeopathy is the wrong solution because its premise is fundamentally wrong.

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Response to adieu (Reply #15)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:51 AM

18. I don't mind if people dabble in it. They have free will, and hey, they can enjoy the placebo effect

.

Domesticated animals on the other hand... The placebo effect doesn't work so awesome, because the animal just thinks that's water. (Which it is. Animals are pretty smart, yo)

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #18)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:47 PM

56. Placebo effect works for animals in sort of the opposite way

you crush up a pill for the pet, mix it in some tasty meat thingee (or whatever is the pet's favorite food), and then feed that to the pet. Pet thinks it's the food, not the crushed pill. That's sort of a reverse placebo effect.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:03 AM

19. It's very simple, if you don't want to use medicine to assist your pet

don't go to a veterinarian and ask for hokum solutions.


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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:21 AM

21. It gets a little worrying

That these quacks are profiteering and too many people think its OK just because it goes against big pharma. It's a dangerous path for sure.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:08 AM

22. I have little tolerance

For these folks that know little of what they talk about and are so quick to bash methods that do work.

This attempt by the avma is an assault against the vets that have trained long and hard to treat our pets with a skill they have learned. I have used homeopathy on my pets for over a decade, it's incredibly powerful.

Knowing what the right tool and when to use it is important. For those that aren't "into" that, just walk away and let us heal our pets.

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Response to Mona (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:45 AM

42. No. I dislike seeing animals suffer because actual medical treatment is being withheld.

Peer review it with reproducible results, and I promise to read it, and re-consider. As the science stands now, it appears to be about the same as doing nothing at all.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #42)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:46 PM

49. aas someone

Deeply steeped in animal health, I can asure you that you are wrong.

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Response to Mona (Reply #49)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:50 PM

51. I don't base my worldview on anecdotal opinions.

If the effect were real, it could be reproducibly demonstrated, with or without the support or permission of 'big pharma'.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:13 AM

23. If the white paper has no peer review and not author how can it be accepted as policy guidance?

Regardless of distorted views on what is and is not alternative medicine such formal policy has potential to harm good practice and invite lawsuits. While there is good and also foolish debate about what non-medical practices (those not taught at Vet school as procedure or policy) benefit animals and humans this sounds like the big pharma putting its boot on the neck of reasonable doubt.

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Response to Ford_Prefect (Reply #23)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:16 AM

26. Yeah, because the fact that homeopathy is quackery needs still to be scientifically determined.. (?)

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:53 AM

25. Homeopathy is magic medicine

Any Vet advocating for homeopathy or other quack modality is not looking after your pet's best interest. Screeching BigPharma won't change that.

Responders should educate themselves before embarrassing themselves on this.

Homeopathy has no plausible mode for being effective. It is nothing but BigQuackery.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:22 AM

27. This is yet another of Joseph Mercola's scams.

Mercola is a scam artist, a quack.

http://www.skepdic.com/mercola.html

I mean, he claims cancer is a fungus.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:25 AM

28. Mercola? Homeopathy?...

OMFG.



Sid

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:31 AM

30. .

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:37 AM

33. I don't believe in homeopathy for anything. Humans, pets, plants or even rocks.

More woo woo crap.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:53 AM

34. There's already enough water in Fido's bowl.

Don't give him more water and pretend it's medicine, because that would be stupid.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:20 AM

35. Shit and sugar...



Sid

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:24 AM

37. So this "discussion" is about science vs em, err belief? Culturally mandated fact vs superstition?

No, that was not sarcasm.

A science based medical practice is accepting an un-attributed White Paper as the basis for legal and medical policy with no peer review or opinion from professionals in the field? No matter what the subject of the white paper is that doesn't quite add up.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:40 AM

38. Oh, yes, how odd that a professional association of science-based

medical professionals would be against homeopathy. I'm shocked, I tell you.

Homeopathy is a fraud. If you use it to treat your pet, you do your pet no good at all. If your pet is ill, see your veterinarian.

Oh, yes....Mercola is a quack.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:50 AM

39. But you think links to mercola are just fine for GD...



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:06 AM

40. I think they do not violate the SOP for GD.

I also think they should be a violation of the DU TOS and should be locked instantly when they appear.

There are a couple of things that need adjusting, and the posting of links to anything from Mercola should be prohibited everywhere on DU. They are pure woo, crazy talk, and should be specifically listed in the TOS.

So, no, I don't think they're just fine. Not at all.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:28 AM

44. "Believe" - The headline says it all.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:34 AM

45. Many natural/alternative remedies are great, but homeopathy in particular seems to be quackery.

It's basically distillation of compounds to next to nothing, plus magical thinking.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:39 AM

46. Animals don't believe in faith healing

because they are reality-based beings, so I agree with the attempt to ban the outright fraud and deception of homeopathy.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:52 AM

48. Translation: If you want to continue to throw away more money on worthless placebos...

Stop shilling for the Ignorance industry.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:49 PM

50. gately, I'm sorry

I'm sorry that your thread turned out this way. Thanks for spreading the word, I hope that some that are reading went and signed the petition. It's a travesty.

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Response to Mona (Reply #50)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:50 PM

61. Aww, thank you Mona -- how sweet. But it's okay.

I actually bring my cat to a "real" vet, but I don't think any option should be taken away from us.

My boss adopted a "special needs" dog from the shelter -- lots of seizures and spinning in circles. The treatment was phenobarbital and he still was having seizures every 1-2 days.

She did some reasearch (thank you Google) and learned of a different treatment. I don't recall what it was, it wasn't herbs or tinctures, but it was an approach that was delivering better results. She told her "regular" vet she wanted to try it. Her vet had never heard of it, my boss said "I don't care, the treatment he's on isn't helping and if you won't do it, I'll find someone who will".

The vet went out and Googled it, came back and grudgingly agreed to it, but didn't hold out much hope. Charlie hasn't had one seizure in NINE MONTHS, and spins only when extremely nervous.

She also took him off of "veterinary approved" dry food, and began feeding him dehydrated raw. You look at him now and he just LOOKS so much healthier.

The problem with veterinarians, just like with MDs, is that too much of what they "learn" is dictated by Big Money.

Attitudes ARE changing, and I just think that we need to keep ALL options available, whether we choose to utilized them or not.

Again, thanks. As usual, people who just want to get in their two cents worth always muddy a thread instead of just ignoring it if they aren't interested. They won't change anybody's mind, and vice versa. Such are the perils of DU.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:37 PM

60. These things are almost always not about how much money is being made

but who's getting the paychecks. The homeopathy industry wants bigger paychecks, so they scare people into thinking that their quack medicine is threatened and use real medicine as the boogeyman to shill their products on people who want to believe that these for profit companies are only looking out for their best interests.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:11 PM

64. I believe homeopathic therapies should be killed. Note that killing off Homeopathic is NOT...

I repeat, NOT the same as killing off alternative and holistic practices.
Many alternative and holistic practices have a real basis and can be shown effective in double blind study or have their mechanisms explained within a scientific context.

Homeopathy cannot. There is no basis for it.

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:13 PM

65. What homeopathy is, for the uninformed

From Wikipedia:

Homeopathic remedies are prepared by repeatedly diluting a chosen substance in alcohol or distilled water, followed by forceful striking on an elastic body, called succussion. Each dilution followed by succussion is said to increase the remedy's potency. Dilution usually continues well past the point where none of the original substance remains. Homeopaths select remedies by consulting reference books known as repertories, considering the totality of the patient's symptoms as well as the patient's personal traits, physical and psychological state, and life history.

The low concentrations of homeopathic remedies, often lacking even a single molecule of the diluted substance, lead to an objection that has dogged homeopathy since the 19th century: how, then, can the substance have any effect? Modern advocates of homeopathy have suggested that "water has a memory"—that during mixing and succussion, the substance leaves an enduring effect on the water, perhaps a "vibration", and this produces an effect on the patient. However, nothing like water memory has ever been found in chemistry or physics. Pharmacological research has found, contrary to homeopathy, that stronger effects of an active ingredient come from higher doses, not lower doses.

Homeopathic remedies have been the subject of numerous clinical trials, which test the possibility that they may be effective through some mechanism unknown to science. Taken together, these trials showed at best no effect beyond placebo, at worst that homeopathy could be actively harmful. Although some trials produced positive results, systematic reviews revealed that this was because of chance, flawed research methods, and reporting bias. The proposed mechanisms for homeopathy are precluded by the laws of physics from having any effect. Patients who choose to use homeopathy rather than evidence based medicine risk missing timely diagnosis and effective treatment of serious conditions. The regulation and prevalence of homeopathy vary greatly from country to country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

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Response to gateley (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:30 PM

68. Locking

Mercola is not a reputable source. Please report in CS, or Alternative Meds.

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