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Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:23 PM

Why I find these hate the troops post pathetic

Beyond belief

For people who prattle at times about class solidarity, there is nothing funnier than hating people who in many instances serve, not to serve mom, apple pie and the American way...that is a lie. They serve in order to feed their families and escape a life of poverty, or at least try to.

These kids, and even lifers, are working class people trying to make it. When in the field they care for those besides them, and to go home. When they leave the service many don't make it to the lower middle class, and what they want is the few promises to be kept...nothing much...promises kept.

And the best part is you sent them there, through the political class you elected.

Then again, I should not be too shocked. There s just as much disdain for workers, especially union workers.

If you ever want to see the Glorious revolution (chuckle) some of you dream off, a good start would be to read whichever theory of class solidarity you subscribe to and actually understanding the true meaning of it.

For the record, the true heroes of the Russian Revolution of 1917 were the sailors and lower rank officers of the Battleship Potemkin. Never mind the USSR never quite trusted the Navy and political officers were placed in all units of the armed forces to ensure loyalty. Funny dat, since it was the Army that once again assured the failure of the state and the USSR fell a few decades later. Yup, the army refused to move on the Kremlin in 1991, funny dat.

I tell the story since class solidarity will not get you anywhere until you stop kicking those in the working classes you particularly don't like, whether they are Union workers or military, or just the suffering poor.

This was one thing OWS got, and still gets.

Why they are a threat to the state. Yup, they are still around, though not in the parks.

But damn it, latte drinking hipsters...who talk a good game but have no idea what the terms mean outside a book need to get a clue.

For the record, you are doing the work of the ruling elites, divide and conquer indeed...bravo indeed.

Chuckle.





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Reply Why I find these hate the troops post pathetic (Original post)
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 OP
Still Sensible Jan 2013 #1
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #2
jillan Jan 2013 #3
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #4
southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #79
zappaman Jan 2013 #5
pecwae Jan 2013 #38
Agnosticsherbet Jan 2013 #6
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #8
white_wolf Jan 2013 #21
gtar100 Jan 2013 #23
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #42
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #50
white_wolf Jan 2013 #111
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #112
white_wolf Jan 2013 #114
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #115
white_wolf Jan 2013 #116
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #118
white_wolf Jan 2013 #120
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #124
white_wolf Jan 2013 #127
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #128
DollarBillHines Jan 2013 #7
Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #9
freshwest Jan 2013 #10
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #11
freshwest Jan 2013 #15
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #12
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #14
zappaman Jan 2013 #69
dionysus Jan 2013 #110
LineReply .
former-republican Jan 2013 #13
Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2013 #16
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #17
Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2013 #18
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #48
BainsBane Jan 2013 #19
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #20
white_wolf Jan 2013 #25
Moses2SandyKoufax Jan 2013 #26
sarisataka Jan 2013 #27
white_wolf Jan 2013 #34
sarisataka Jan 2013 #49
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #31
patrice Jan 2013 #22
white_wolf Jan 2013 #24
patrice Jan 2013 #29
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #57
patrice Jan 2013 #73
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #78
patrice Jan 2013 #107
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #108
patrice Jan 2013 #109
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #113
patrice Jan 2013 #117
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #119
patrice Jan 2013 #121
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #125
Scootaloo Jan 2013 #28
DonCoquixote Jan 2013 #30
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #82
redgreenandblue Jan 2013 #32
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #44
MicaelS Jan 2013 #33
Scuba Jan 2013 #35
coalition_unwilling Jan 2013 #36
NoPasaran Jan 2013 #37
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #43
Bonobo Jan 2013 #39
99Forever Jan 2013 #41
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #47
randome Jan 2013 #40
stevenleser Jan 2013 #45
el_bryanto Jan 2013 #46
bluestate10 Jan 2013 #51
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zappaman Jan 2013 #71
Downtown Hound Jan 2013 #53
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #55
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nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #80
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atreides1 Jan 2013 #104
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4Q2u2 Jan 2013 #91
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #94
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riverbendviewgal Jan 2013 #98
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Jackpine Radical Jan 2013 #101
Zambero Jan 2013 #102
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11 Bravo Jan 2013 #105
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Vattel Jan 2013 #122
WooWooWoo Jan 2013 #123
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #126

Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:26 PM

1. Very well said. Thank you nadin. n/t

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Response to Still Sensible (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:28 PM

2. You welcome

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:31 PM

3. I have a family member who enlisted after 9/11 to get out of a pathetic, abusive home.



You can not judge someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes.

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Response to jillan (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:33 PM

4. There is that too

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:07 PM

79. As a wife of a lifer I thank you.

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:36 PM

5. I can't believe it!

For the first time ever I agree with the meat of your post.
I differ on the OWS stuff, but the military stuff you wrote is right on.

REC!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:05 AM

38. I'm feeling a bit strange myself

about reccing. I think it may be the second time in my DU history I've agreed with the OP on anything.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:42 PM

6. What I find pathetic about the hate the troops posts is their ignorance of the way...

our system works, in reality and theory.

They have deluded themselves into thinking the military decides who and where to fight so they can convince themselves that they are not responsible for what their civilian government orders. Even if they claim they voted for the other side they are just using that to justify not being responsible.

As American citizens we are all responsible for what our government does. The troops are just the weapon we use.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:45 PM

8. Absolutely, and there s hate, real hate

When this simple (and complex at the same time) truth is presented to them. We are responsible, ultimately, for policies our government takes in our name...whether they are military, economic, diplomatic or policy related.

We need to be informed, but be willing to accept this responsibility as citizens.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:48 AM

21. Hate? I've never said I hated them.

The majority of them are victims of a broken system that uses them and spits them out. That does not change my view that killing in times of war is little more than murder. Perhaps it is justified in some cases, but it hasn't been justified since WWII and I won't view people as heroes simply because they fought in wars. Should the government take care of them when they return? Yes, because the government made a promise to them in terms of VA and other benefits and they should honor that promise. The only members of the military I want to see punished are those who have killed civilians whether that be by bullets or drones or those who engaged in or covered up torture. Those two crimes are inexcusable. If you willingly and knowingly killed civilians, I don't care if it was under orders you deserve to punished for murder. If you engaged in or covered up acts of torture you deserve to be punished for that crime. My anger is not at the common grunt enlisted, my anger is at this entire system, my anger is at those people who tortured or knowingly killed civilian and have the nerve to be expect anything, but scorn. The average grunt? Let's bring him or her home, let's end these wars and put their skills to use doing something constructive.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:17 AM

23. Well stated. Ty.

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Response to gtar100 (Reply #23)


Response to white_wolf (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:07 AM

50. Sorry, your post was in hate for the common grunt

And class solidarity is a nice set of words in a book for you. It includes alliances with those you may not particularly like.

There is more...that glorious revolution will include some killing. So you will order others to do what you find distasteful? A little history helps. No revolution, not even the Arab Spring, has been completely bloodless.

Yes, the system is broken. What are you going to do to fix it? I suggest you put down the theory and go organize. But if it ever came to an actual revolution, shades of gray come to mind and a few non-tasty bits. The same goes for actual organizing.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #50)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:41 PM

111. Really tell me, Nadin how do you know my thoughts and intentions?

You can't so don't sit there and tell me what I think about the common grunts, because unless you have ESP you have no clue what I think.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #111)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:58 PM

112. Based on your posts and your words

No ESP needed.

Once again, class solidarity is far more than just theory.

Lenin knew that, but he had to learn that the hard way. Stalin exploited that, and turned to the tools of the Tsarist state by a new name. The dreaded secret police became the NKVD, and used Lubyanka.

Every revolution, the real kind, has this tension.

And all organizing has this tension as well.

But no need for ESP. Really, no need.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #112)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:12 PM

114. No my words and posts display anger towards the troops.

Anger towards a system that uses them. You are interpreting mere criticism as hate which is simply false. In my OP the only groups you could claim that I came across as hating was the ones who engaged in torture or the killing of civilians. As I have said countless times in this thread, the common troops should be brought home. Simply because I think they are at least partially responsible for the wars does not equal hate. It all comes down to what we are fighting for. I do not believe fighting for corporate profits is something to be cheered or celebrated. I do no believe that those who have done so should be viewed as heroes or given any more respect than anyone else. I don't think they should be punished, but I do no have any more respect for them than I do the average person on the street. If we were discussing WWII I would be taking a different tone, because that was a much more necessary war than any of the wars that have followed.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #114)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:28 PM

115. Thanks for the clarification.

Funny thing I was not the only one to read it that way.

So it's the system. Time to organize and take respinsibility for those you elect. We as citizens are part of the problem. Again, even Marxist theory understands this.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #115)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:36 PM

116. You are right about a few things here.

1. Maybe I did paint with too broad a brush because you aren't the only one who read it that way so I should have made it more clear, because I do not hate the troops, I hate the war, I hate the way the MIC uses them and I hate the way the effect war has on other countries and people, but I will concede that I may have painted with a broad brush. 2. You are right in saying that we do have to talk responsibility for who we elect, that's why I could not in good conscience vote for a straight Democratic ticket this war because a few of the reps. who were running were pro-war and to be frankly honest that is a deal breaker for me anymore. Unless the U.S. is under attack I really cannot support those who support a war. I won't lie I have no chance of running for office I'm too poor and I'm not a great public speaker, but next election time maybe I should campaign harder for those who are anti-war or at the very least donate some more money to those who are anti-war (sadly that's all I could do this time around.)

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #116)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:45 PM

118. What do you do between elections?



That is why I said organize.

My local labor leader council head, she started poor. She's been labor organizing for ever, like fifteen or so. She's running for state assembly next term.

She's taking the battle to the next stage.

I cover the news, and I cover labor, which is rare.

Elections are not the end of this thing we call politics. And I admit, it gets exhausting at times. Especially if you work three jobs...labor in the 1880s worked ten hour days, six days a week. They still found the time.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #118)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:50 PM

120. I'm active with a few local groups including my local Occupy movement.

Right now all those groups can really do is try to bring awareness to the issues and stand in support of the few labor unions we have around here when they need us. You know, since some people are saying I have don't understand the troops, maybe I should see about volunteering at a local veteran's organization some. It might be a good learning experience.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #120)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:57 PM

124. Veterans for peace would be my recomendation

Or the va.

Your local occupy should have some contacts I with veterans for peace.

And yes, like anything else there are some vets that will drive you nuts. We've met them.

To say vets are a single monolithic group would be a lie.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #124)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:04 PM

127. There's actually a member of Veterans for Peace in my Occupy movement.

He was a really good guy, but fell on bad times. He came home from Afghanistan only to lose his home to Bank of America. I was furious when I heard his story and what really made me mad was when some conservative businesswomen started lecturing him about how he was being lazy and lost his home because he was trying to game the system. The really rotten thing was he lost his home, because he took the advice of someone from Bank of America in regards to financing his mortgage. Maybe he should have looked into it more, but a lot of people may not have the time and should be able to trust the word of these so called experts. I mean when you go to the doctor and he says you have the flu, you don't normally go to multiple doctors to confirm his diagnosis. He's doing better since then and found a decent apartment, but I don't think he will ever get his house back, at least not anytime soon.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #127)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:09 PM

128. That is one problem we have seen with banks

Veterans and even active duty troops. The banks do it to everybody and these days, if we needed financing, I would not use any of the major banks.

The last group is surprising since JAG tends to get involved and kick ass. The banks have lost more than a few cases.

As to conservatives...greed is what ails them...pure and simple...I got mine...so screw you.

Your local occupy, introduce to them the Madrid model...organizing at the grass roots. This is what my locals are up to...and they have had a few victories.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:44 PM

7. "But damn it, latte drinking hipsters...who talk a good game"

Spot-on, Nadin.

Spot-fucking-on.

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Response to DollarBillHines (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:51 PM

9. Sipping lattes while condemning the evil E-1 privates for the Iraq War.

Gotta love it.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:31 AM

10. Looking down on anyone is assuming a superior moral position over others and not egalitarian at all.

Thanks for expressing it so well, nadin.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:40 AM

11. Hence why it is so jarring.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:57 AM

15. It is like talking with someone who knows the words, but not the feelings. You are spot on,

they are doing the work of the 1% by dividing us. The lack of respect for the people they claim to support, is like viewing oneself in fractured mirror. The heart is lacking, no matter how frenzied the words or how sharp the pictures painted by them.

It is profoundly hurtful and drives people to the right. Walking a mile in their shoes is too humbling for some to do, so they are quick to condemn. For some, the military is upward mobility. Some should consider that for moment.

Low wages, strict conditions, regimentation and commitments that can't be walked away from or go to the brig, away from family and friends, not certain if they will come home in one piece, and harsh treatment if they fail there. Sure there are opportunities, but not all make it through. Many woudn't consider that an improvement.

Many minorities I know who joined felt it was the best chance they got, so they loved it, tried to stay with it as long as they could. None of them shot anyone and didn't want to kill or hurt anyone.

My best friend's five sons all joined out of high school as their father had left early on and their mother worked several jobs a day to take care of them but couldn't afford to send them to college.

It was their big chance to get out of poverty and they've done well, not rich from it, but it gave them a place to stand. It's the biggest socialist program there is in this country, haha.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:44 AM

12. I figure many of them are RWNJs who post the crap

 

the run back to their little RWNJ holes to post about how "Liburls hate da troops!"

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:56 AM

14. Nah, just your standard

Pie in the sky, still lives in books, hipsters.

I love 'em, been here forever, but...

I walked the halls of academia, but walked the streets as well. Both are needed to get a measured view of the world.

The theory is fine, but only when balanced with real life. Also our hipsters do hate the lower classes...this is a problem I heard the occupy folks get through in more than one heated general assembly. They had to realize (and they did) that grimy street reality is different than theory.

This hate is actually in the water of the country and in the stories we like to tell..."pull yourself from the gutter, get a job you bum!"

Some of our hipsters have not realized this.

They are far more victims of propaganda than a first termer in country trying his or her hardest not to get shot.

You and I may not agree in many things, but we can disagree without being disagreeable since we do share that silent understanding. We also get something else many in this country do not. It does not matter if I elected the sob in office or not, my job as a citizen is to hold that sob responsible. And policies he or she votes for, are in my name. He represents me.

Thus citizens really do not know the meaning of the word citizenship.

For me it was not granted, I had to earn it...I take it seriously.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:19 PM

69. "I walked the halls of academia, but walked the streets as well."

and "Some of our hipsters have not realized this."

Now I will UNREC my Rec.
You had to go and ruin it...

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Response to zappaman (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:08 PM

110. ..and had many shootouts.. pew pew pew...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:12 AM

16. I don't hate the troops--I hate the way they are used to promote support for wars

and the way that the military is one of the few ways out of poverty for working class kids. I hate the way that well-meaning people are put into harm's way for no good reason. I hate the way they are indoctrinated to think that they're "fighting for freedom" or "fighting to protect our rights," when they're really just fighting for American corporate interests.

"Support the troops" is right-wing code speak for "support the wars."

I first noticed this when I was living in rural Oregon and our local National Guard unit was sent to the Gulf War. All of a sudden, every store window in town had a "we support the troops" sign. What this meant in practice was that if you criticized the Gulf War you were "not supporting the troops."

It was crazy. If you criticized the Gulf War because you didn't think that it was worth sacrificing young lives for, you were "not supporting the troops."

The hell with that.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:20 AM

17. Then work to change the policies that send those troops to war

Support the troops is RW code, but it's something else too, which many liberals conflate with the RW talking points.

It is tricare
It is the VA
It is the number of vets right now sleeping under a damn bridge.
It is the number of vets (and active troops) putting a bullet through their head.

It is so much more.

And it is one of those code phrases that liberals should make a commitment to retake from the fire breathing RW. One that I think we have retaken is "strong on defense," which now we need to push politicians to convert into serious policy reforms that will keep that strength, while reducing the size of the military. This is policy.

But you got mostly what I wrote. Those troops are our sons and daughters and they are working class. We should not spit on them, but, as you said, find real ways to actually support them. One of them is to change polices...that take us to the four corners. This is where real class solidarity (and movement politics) plays a role.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:26 AM

18. I've always liked the slogan "Support the troops; bring them home"

Another reason that "support the troops" annoys me is that the very right wingers who paste the slogan on their bumpers are the ones who want to defund VA medical care, think homeless people are just lazy, and think that suicides are morally weak.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #18)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:03 AM

48. And those are the ones I call on

I ad one of them n my truck since 911. Alas it was made in Hawaii, not China. And hubby was a troop, now retired. Part of that retaking I am talking about

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:28 AM

19. Such an attitude is repugnant

and turns my stomach. Thankfully I've missed the recent posts the OP refers to.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:37 AM

20. what 'hate the troops' posts? i haven't seen them.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #20)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:26 AM

25. She is probably referring to my post here.

Though, I never said I hated the troops in it and I thought I made it clear that my post was directed against those who commit torture or knowingly murder civilians, but for the sake of disclosure here is my post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022126929

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:30 AM

26. It is a direct reply to you thread.

What people must understand is that certain military people view any statement that falls short of blind worship and unconditional praise as hatred.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:33 AM

27. It may be these words

And just to be clear I consider anyone who enlisted during the Iraq War to be guilty of willfully invading a country that poses no threat to your own. They knew there was a high likelihood of them being sent there. They are just as guilty as the congressman who voted for that war.
...
That have people confused. You first made a blanket statement of guilt, then later qualified it to a subset that should face punishment. The initial statement shows that you believe all are guilty whether deserving of punishment or not.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #27)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:46 AM

34. Fair enough, but those words do not equal hate.

I don't hate them for doing what they did, I think it was a wrong decision that harmed many people and I feel that they do hold some degree of responsibility for that, but I never once claimed I hated them. Hate is an extremely strong term that implies I would wish death or harm upon them. I don't wish that one any of them. I don't even wish harm upon those who I directly mentioned in my OP aside from that which the judicial process would bring. Even in those cases of torture or killing civilians I would not wish them dead and would oppose the death penalty or even life in prison. I feel the goal of the justice system should be to rehabilitate as much as possible and life in prison does not do that.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #34)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:07 AM

49. I understand

it is a sensitive point for many. Personally, I don't care- I have BTDT, hate war and blame wars on those who do not actually fight them.

We cannot control what other nations do but I do fully support holding our troops to the standards our society supports. If we cannot stay true to our beliefs, no matter the provocation, then we have lost regardless of what happens on the battlefield.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:10 AM

31. that's the sum total of the 'hate the troops' posts the OP is talking about? lol.

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:07 AM

22. I'm probably going to get in trouble for this, but if you revere ALL life, but make exceptions for a

steak, cosmetics' research, 2+ tri-mester abortions, or capital punishment . . . you've already accepted the principle of politically correct killing.

No, that doesn't mean that just ANY killing in war is okay; we should defend ourselves only against authentic physical threats. And it ***IS***, in significant part, all of our faults that the wrong kind of political leadership gets into power and abuses the responsibility to differentiate between authentic threats and LIES. Yes, corporate personhood is an overwhelmingly powerful part of that political dynamic, but that fact does not excuse each and every one of us from accepting whatever responsibility we can define to use our own power to do what we can about that problem, "ineffective" though we may think it might be. And anyone who hasn't done the most s/he possibly can to oppose unjust wars, successfully or not, has no damn business judging the military, especially enlisted.

I think it's all good and fine for all of us to talk about ALL of it completely honestly, all of our feelings and thoughts, but the moral decisions that guide a person's life belong by right to that individual, not a group. Group relationship can be a factor, but determinative decisions must be each individual's to the fullest extent possible.

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Response to patrice (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:25 AM

24. Looking over your 4 examples.

Steak doesn't apply to me. While I think we should take care of the environment I don't view animal life as the equal to human life. I think doing cosmetic research on animals is wrong, but once again it's similar to the steak issue. The abortion one, I'll admit you may have me. I haven't done the research, but I'm assuming 2+ trimester is the point at which most scientists agree human life begins? Is that correct? As for the 4th, I strongly oppose the death penalty and consider it nothing more than state sanctioned murder and think it should be abolished.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:55 AM

29. I don't think most people have parsed it out as far as you have, white_wolf. & I don't personally

insist upon consistency, just the fullest awareness possible of why/how one is/does so and honesty about what you're doing, so one can legitimately call on others to do the same, i.e. modelling that same effort toward acute-as-possible awareness and honesty about it all.

Judgement? Every one should judge one's self, not others. That's the only judgement that one stands a chance of being valid in and in which judgement is actually useful. To me, I try to keep my interest in what others do or don't do about functionality, or not, of observable behavior and its consequences. Does it work (produce the person's desired outcomes)? or does the behavior not work? . . not judgement.

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Response to patrice (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:51 AM

57. The problem is that change

Comes from movement politics, it implies a mass of people and yes, class solidarity.

Individuals can do some, even lead...but you still need people behind you.

It's easy to ignore a person, not so easy when it's tens of thousands.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #57)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:41 PM

73. I'm trying to describe dynamics between factors, so, yes, individuals & cohorts are important

to one another.

Trying to look at a broad perspective that includes how individuals stay true to their own most valid values and, in so doing, increase the probabilities that one will encounter coherence with others doing more or less the same thing. Not as marketing, but in a more organic sense.

Seeing stuff on the frontpage here about rape in the presence of un-involved bystanders, e.g., anykind of situation in which the challenge is to be authentically what one is (in this thread, e.g., a peacemaker or a warrior) in any contexts that, at minimum, confuse or obfuscate, what one is and, at worst, degrade you/others, or erode one's values, or are proactively counter or aggressive, or even outright hostile and destructive.

The pattern of the usual "understanding" (seen here at DU quite a bit but practically everywhere else besides) is that difference must ALWAYS attack difference in order to remain different, or run away/avoid, or, at best, ignore it, e.g. "innocent" bystanders who let things like assault and war just happen. The problem with the assumption that differences must attack/avoid/ignore differences is that some differences are authentic and some are NOT authentic differences. That's a very important point, because potential for sharing is lost if each of us doesn't figure out which differences are authentic and which aren't and by how much and why. Not only is potential for sharing lost (think Venn diagram here), but we also can lose sight of what the authentic differences are, i.e. the things we don't share and why and how we don't share them.

That probably sounds convoluted to anyone who hasn't taught, but it is one of the basic sorts of things teachers do: compare contrast, identify at least hypothetically what differences are at work and what similarities are at work, individual by individual in a group and proceed from there; lather, rinse, repeat and empower individuals to do the same for themselves.

There are some authentic differences between people that are even complimentary in certain specific and rather constructive ways. And the challenges posed by those differences that are not complimentary, those that are more anti-thetical, also can be very clarifying for every honest person involved. What is needed for those complementarities and those challenges to be discovered is authentic engagement. "War" in its many forms makes it very difficult for those kinds of processes to go forward. MUCH is lost.

Language often deludes us and is also USED against us. Not all dichotomies are false (many things are more or less different). Not all equivalencies are false (many things are more or less similar). It's those "more or less" -es that I think will free all of us, first individually and then socially, to focus on how our differences and similarities function DYNAMICALLY, and hopefully even constructively, in given behavioral contexts.

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Response to patrice (Reply #73)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:07 PM

78. Absolutely.

The problem is also one of identification and fears.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #78)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:07 PM

107. We are not encouraged to authentically self-identify. There's that old conundrum about how

a culture that supposedly admires individuality produces the opposite of individuality and whatever causes that is so insidious that an awful lot of people think they are individuals when they aren't and, then, what's worse, they get blind-sided by things like the invasion and occupation of INNOCENT other nations.

I was in Chipotle the other day (here in Cupcake Land), standing in line, when a gaggle of <100 pounder-about-25-yr-old-cupcake-princesses passed through the line around me on their way out the door. All wearing THE skinny-jeans uniform, all of the hair done perfectly in trend, the RIGHT make-up, all about the same height, manicures, the works, silent except for whatever body-cues they have developed for crowded places, and no eye contact as each one of the appx. 8 of them passed in front of me standing there smiling at them.

I know there are persons in there somewhere, persons who will become more fully who they are as individuals and who they are as humans sometime somehow, I'm just pretty worried about HOW and when that might be.

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Response to patrice (Reply #107)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:17 PM

108. Which is interesting in itself

For a culture of individuals we are encouraged to be part of the trends...

Pull yourself by your bootstraps, but wear the correct clothes.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #108)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:20 PM

109. RIGHT on! nadin! ONLY certain kinds of bootstraps are even considered bootstraps & THAT

is screwing up some people pretty bad, which, in turn, affects everyone/everything else, whether they recognize it or not.

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Response to patrice (Reply #109)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:59 PM

113. Why I said some of our hipsters are even more

Propagandized than a first termer in a fox hole.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #113)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:36 PM

117. Gotta watch out for those hipsters, sometimes, most of all!

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Response to patrice (Reply #117)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:47 PM

119. I hope these conversations help to get 'em to think.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #119)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:50 PM

121. It also helps that we are right on the economics of "bootstraps" too! Thanks for ALL that

you do, nadinbrzezinski!

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Response to patrice (Reply #121)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:58 PM

125. You do as well.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:36 AM

28. I don't "hate the troops" but meaningless genuflection disgusts me

And it, even more than what you describe, works to enshrine a "ruling class."

Respect people for being people. Simple 'nuff, right?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:06 AM

30. Part of the problem with the self proclaimed left

is that almost none of them really like, or want to udnerstand, the proletariat, I myself do not understand them, save that my father was one, but I am at least wise enough to know that I should ask questions and LISTEN, rather than assume shit.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:12 PM

82. Yup

I do a lot of listening as a reporter. I cover labor, actively.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:00 AM

32. Why do you assume soldiers have no choice but the rest of us do?

That is what I don't understand. You insist that what drives people to sign up are economic forces which are beyond resisting. And yet at the same time you assume that the rest of us, those who were not desperate enough yet to sign up, have all the means in our hands to influence policy. Write to congress, run for congress, organize, etc. etc.

Yet, you don't say the same to people who sign up for the military. Why don't you say to them also "Instead of enlisting, write to congress, run for congress, organize a union, etc."?

Therein lies the fallacy in your argument: You assume a double standard. Those who enlist are under-privileged and subject to deterministic forces. Those who don't sign up, for what ever reason, must therefore posess a capacity to influence the system. Soldiers are innocent. Those who don't sign up are guilty.

By, the way, not all enlistment is due to poverty or lack of other options. Some people, like my cousin, sign up for, in his case the airforce, because "being a pilot is bad-ass" and similar reasons. It is a mixed bag. You can show me a statistic that says poor people are more likely to sign up, and I'll certainly believe it for it is plausible, but that is not the only reason people sign up for.

I don't blame those who had no other choice, for what ever reason. I blame those who did. Some did.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #32)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:56 AM

44. What double standard?

They are working class like some s us.

See, I know what class I belong to, and it ain't the mythical middle class...

You apparently don't, and it is part of the problem.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:42 AM

33. One of the best posts you have ever made.

Thank you very much.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:25 AM

35. Thanks Nadin, great post.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:29 AM

36. To which I would add that some of the most powerful anti-war statements and

 

organizing came from veterans in Vietnam (VVAW) and Iraq and Afghanistan (IVAW and Vets for Peace).

Lyndie England (of Abu Ghraib fame) said that the only reason she enlisted was that there were no jobs within a 60-mile radius of where she grew up other than WalMart. The irony is that Lyndie England had way more in common with the Iraqi detainees she tortured than she did with George W. Bush or General Ricardo Sanchez (or L. Paul Bremer).

In fairness to DU, I have not seen many 'hate the troops' posts here. Most DUers seem to recognize the reality of the poverty draft and the fact that the enlisted ranks are by and large working class.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:00 AM

37. You have your Russian Revolutions mixed up

The mutiny on the Battleship Potemkin took place during the 1905 Revolution. The naval icon of the 1917 Revolution was the Cruiser Aurora, which fired a few shots to signal the storming of the Winter Palace in Petrograd.

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Response to NoPasaran (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:54 AM

43. Thank you

I do indeed...been a few decades I guess.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:10 AM

39. I never saw a "hate the troops thread.

But I HAVE seen "I hate the military" or "I hate the blind reverence and hero worship" or "I hate the misappropriation of $$$ that could be better used elsewhere" or "I hate the killing of innocent people abroad and the besmirching of our good names" threads.


Was that maybe what you were thinking of? I know it is a little harder to take offense at THOSE, but it WOULD be a more fair assessment of the kinds of threads here on DU, I think.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:50 AM

41. Yeah, but...

... putting those actually presented sentiments out, rather than posting a deliberately misleading one, wouldn't stir up enough shit, apparently.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:01 AM

47. The sentiment tied to them is what I stated

And some people do hate the troops. Sorry if that scab had to be scratched.

The US left speaks a good game of class solidarity until they have to actually do it. It's easier to speak of it in theory, than actually well...do it.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:12 AM

40. That's something to keep in mind, yes.

But can we not weigh in on women's issues if we've never been a woman? Can we not have opinions on high finance if we've never worked on Wall Street?

Opinions should be judged on information content, not necessarily experience.

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Response to randome (Reply #40)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:00 AM

45. That is not Nadin's point. Her point is that troops are 99%ers.Filter that through OWS's perspective

then come back with whether we should be railing at the troops or focusing any negative attention on them.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:01 AM

46. Well stated. n/t

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:09 AM

51. There is an element on DU that hates anything that doesn't fit within their small, "purity"

bubble. I have learned to ignore many of them because by now, I recognize their user-names on sight.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:14 AM

52. Most of the troops are essentially very young adults trying to get by.

Trying to make a living or get money for college. My grandfather and my father both served in the military. My grandfather was in Europe during WWII but my father never ended up having to go to Vietnam. My Dad joined because he thought he would be drafted anyway. He didn't make much money and my mother hated living in Texas (we are from Connecticut and the weather was a shock). It was not really going to be a career for him and he got out as soon as his time was up.
There is a difference between being in the military and running the military.

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Response to Jennicut (Reply #52)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:36 AM

54. A fine distinction our hipsters miss

In fact, unless you have a couple stars on your shoulders, at that point you can start arguing they run it...you really don't. And civilians still outrank four star generals.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #54)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:27 PM

71. Seriously, what's with all this "hipster" stuff?

You really aren't doing yourself or your OP any favors.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:20 AM

53. I don't like war, and I don't like the military

That doesn't mean I hate the troops, but many people seem to think it does. But I don't like the military as an organization. I hate the blind, unquestioning, fanatical obedience it creates. I hate the adolescent, juvenile mentality it promotes. I don't like our culture that says I have to get down on my knees and express my eternal gratitude to those who invaded a country that posed no threat to me and massacred a shitload of civilians in the process. I hate how they tell me it was all to protect my freedom, it wasn't. I hate how I'm supposed to worship the fact that making yourself a slave to some of the most corrupt and evil men on the planet is such a noble thing to do.

I remember in the early days of the Iraq War how many soldiers actually WANTED to go into Iraq. There were a lot of them. Of course that changed fairly quickly when their friends started coming home in body bags by the hundreds, but in the early days, there was so much aggression and testosterone in the air, it just seemed like they wanted to kill some Arabs for 9-11. It didn't matter that Iraq had nothing to do with it, any Arab would do. It made me sick.

Choose to blame whoever you want for the atrocity that was the Iraq War. All I know is, I'll never have warm and fuzzy feelings towards the military again after I saw just how many of them turned their brains off and cheerfully allowed themselves to used in a crime against humanity.

I don't hate the troops as individuals, but I hate the military, I hate any organization that dehumanizes others to the point where you will kill them because somebody else told you to do it. So as far as I'm concerned, the sooner we stop worshipping the military as the greatest thing since sliced bread, the better.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #53)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:41 AM

55. Soldiers who have never seen combat want the experience

Soldiers who have seen combat become life time pacifists...something that I am sure escapes, or the why.

As to blind obedience...no, not really. But I shan't try to dissuade you since your mind is made up...especially in a military that works under a flexible doctrine where a corporal should be able to replace a sergeant in a pinch and a captain a light colonel.

There are forces where that does not happen. They reflect their societies very well.

But hey, your mind is made...suffice it to say you can thank the military for the non internment of Arab Americans. It has nothing to do with Oathkeepers. But hey, they were blindly following orders.

Chuckle.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #55)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 11:50 AM

56. Wonder how full of praise and excuses you would be

if it was one of your family members murdered in Iraq.

Oh and, not every soldier who sees combat becomes a lifelong pacifist. Some of them become the most gung ho and right wing of them all.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #56)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:06 PM

58. You are talking of REMF personnel

Gung ho is directly proportional to the distance from the actual front lines. Talk to other vets, they'll confirm this. The stories of honor and glory come from rear area mother fuckers, not front line troops who actually have seen combat.

For the record, both hubby and I tell stories of our experience, never to paint a story of glory or honor or any of that bullshit. It's in the quest of showing something to people who can't get it. Nor want to get it. It's a fools errand I admit.

And what if a family member of yours was in the towers on 911? Which is one reason people enlisted, not in as high numbers as they hoped I am sure...but I am also positive that never entered your though process. They wanted to go kick Iraqui ass since, you have conveniently forgotten that 70%+ believed 911 came from Iraq. To this day 30% or so believe they ad WMDs in country and we'd see mushroom clouds.

I can argue against the Iraq war, which I did at the time...I was against it months before the line of departure was crossed, and would love to see Bush and the rest, including the General Staff, hauled to The Hague. Alas I understand the dynamics at play too.

Chew gum, walk at the same time, try it. I promise, you won't trip..ok maybe the first time, especially if you are way out of practice.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #58)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:12 PM

59. Hey if 70% of people believed Iraq was responsible for 9-11

then that pretty much proves my point about the "blind obedience" created by the military and our militaristic culture. It's not like the truth wasn't out there at the time. But it was easier to just say, "let's go fuck some towel heads up," and, "shut up and support the troops," rather than actually come up with an intelligent response to 9-11.

Stupidity is not a defense, not when you have over a million dead, one country in ruins and the other in economic ruin.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:17 PM

60. Was the military involved in meet the press statements

By Condolesa Rice? When exactly did she get her commission? Was the military involved in Bolton's statements that we will be greeted as Liberators? I'm confused, was he a General or an Admiral?

Have a good life...you might want to move to Utopia, or perhaps read sociological work on how societies react under attack...which is what General Rice and Admiral Bolton, as well as General of the Army George Bush used, as well as General Chenney.

I did not realize, until now, that a military junta runs the Government f the United States, thank you for that revelation.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #60)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:25 PM

61. Bush received a majority of the military vote in both 2000 and 2004

even after all the lies about WMD became apparent. Even after Bush falsely accused John Kerry of not deserving his medals. I love how if I even say anything remotely critical of the military I'm an un-American communist, but when Bush, a military deserter, falsely trashes the honor of an actual veteran, most of the military votes for him.

So the U.S military votes for and backs an international war criminal who trashed democracy to win office, lied them into an illegal war, puts the entire future of the planet at risk by denying global warming, and destroys our economy through sheer incompetence, and I'm supposed to get down on my knees and thank them for protecting my freedom?

Sorry, but the sheer stupidity of the military makes them one of the greatest threats to life and liberty on the planet.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #61)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:27 PM

62. No they did not

In 2004 the vote was not for bush. The military knew the score.

Anyway. You seem to want that revolution, but despise a section of the proletariat.

You are funny, and like the hipsters, all theory, no practical knowledge.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #62)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:32 PM

63. Really? Not according to one simple google search:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_the_US_military_voted_for_Bush

I don't really think of myself as a hipster, but given that I am actually able to tell when I'm being lied to by politicians, whereas, according to you, most of the military isn't, I'll continue to rely on my own thinking. So far I seem to be doing much better than those you are currently lauding.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #63)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:40 PM

64. That is why they held the military vote in OH

Yup...

Cause it was not friendly to the thieving administration.

You have your hard view of the world...enough already, pack your bags and move to Utopia. You'll be happier there.

Either that, or join the rest of us in the real world and work for that change. That means stopping your disdain for a section of the proletariat. Who else do you hate among your fellow country men and women?

All theory indeed.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #64)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:59 PM

65. I already said I don't hate them as individuals, I hate the organization

The military is a noose around our necks. Do really think the powers that be would do half the shit they do if they didn't have the military and police protecting their backs?

The real question is why does the military hate me? Why do they hate me enough to drag me through a bullshit war? Why do they hate me enough to vote for a man that's ignoring the environmental catastrophe that's going to befall me one day in my life? Why do they hate me enough to help the police in squashing dissent?

You are aware that there were active duty military involved in squashing protest at both the 2004 and 2008 RNC demonstrations, right? Not just National Guard, but REGULAR MILITARY. As well as OWS, which you seem to support. I personally talked to a soldier who helped fire tear gas at demonstrators during the poor peoples' march at the RNC.

You say I hate my fellow countrymen? I've never once fired a tear gas canister at them for trying to make a better life for themselves. I never dragged them off on the concrete, hit them with billy clubs, pepper sprayed them or locked them in jail for trying to restore democracy and sanity to our country.

The military has played either a direct role or a support role in all of these things against me. So if you ask me why I hate them, there it is. They're stupid, violent, ignorant, and we'd all be much better off without them.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:01 PM

66. You miss this by a mile

But I saw it in your though process. Re-engage those who control the military and the military spending. Hint, it's not admirals.

Oh and sorry, active troops have not been involved in conus beyond training. And the soldiers you saw were swat. Highly militarized swat, but swat.

A soldier told you a tall tale.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #66)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:09 PM

67. I've done nothing but engage them for going on ten years now

Funny thing is, I keep seeing the military come to their defense, both on the street and in simple conversation. When the military actually does something truly noble, like maybe refusing to fire on demonstrators or not voting Republican in droves, then they'll actually have done something worthy of respect.

Other militaries in other countries have done that. Refused unlawful orders, chosen to side with the people over the government. Our military does neither. It obeys orders everytime and then tells me I should single-handedly change the government if I don't like it. I'd be happy to change the government boys, so how about you quit firing tear gas at us while we do so?

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #67)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:13 PM

68. Yup, cause we live in a dictatorship

And active duty troops have not fired at demonstrators. Somebody told you a real tall tale.

And the CIVILIANS are in control...wrong target.

Have an excellent life...need help in moving to Utopia?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #68)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:22 PM

70. Oh, it's no tall tale

You're the one living in a fantasy world if you think the military isn't involved in squashing protest. Whether or not they actually do the shooting or not is irrelevant. They provide support for it and help make it happen. This isn't your grandaddy's America anymore.

Given that you didn't even know that Bush got a majority of the military vote in 2004, I will continue to rely on my own thinking in this matter rather than yours.

I don't need to live in Utopia. I just need to live in a country that isn't overrun with militaristic idiots. The military has gotten us nowhere in the last few decades except made us poorer and less free.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #70)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:30 PM

72. Rely on whatever you want

And my grand daddy lived in a small town in Poland, so you are correct, this is not my grand daddy's America, it never was.

But you chose to live in tin foil hattery, your prerrogative, not mine.

And no dear, the military vote was so assured that it was delayed and not counted at cuyahooga County, where the electoral theft of 2004 happened.

Seems to me there is a chasm that cannot be bridged, parrtly since I chose to live in this place we call reality.

But at least you ave backed away from us forces (regulars) shooting on civilians. What they have done, which should raise alarms, where the tall tale might come from, is TRAINING in CONUS, the last we know off happened last year in Los Angeles, down town to be exact.

We also have photos of cal National Guard outside an armory in 2003, but I am sure you have no idea of the difference between the 101st, indeed deployed during Katrina, and a Guard unit.

Regardless, they are ALL UNDER CIVILIAN CONTROL. if you cannot comprehend this, it ain't my fault. But I will grant you this, General Condolosa Rice has a nice ring to it...perhaps for fiction in an alternate history of the US. Should I give her command of the 89th All American Division?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #72)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:45 PM

74. Well, holy shit, lookee what I found:

Something form none other than the army's own web page about military involvement in the 2008 RNC protests.

"Our main mission was to support local law enforcement," said 1st Lt. T. Zdon, an armor officer with the unit. The Soldiers provided assistance in two key ways, said Zdon. "One: we provided a good number of forces used to support them. Two: we provided a good military presence

Officials said the response time of the 150 Soldiers was remarkable, and the effect of their presence was evident in the quelling of the demonstrators."

http://www.army.mil/article/14576/Providing_security_for_the_Republican_National_Convention/

I have backed down from nothing. The military actively engaged and attacked demonstrators. The man I talked to was not national Guard, he was active duty and he was not lying. You want to shove your head up your ass and pretend these things don't happen, that's your business. But just so you know, it's yet another reason why I don't like the military or its defenders. You refuse to acknowledge the truth and make excuses for bad behavior.

Oh and, given that events like these are classified as "National Security Events," let's just say I remain unconvinced that they are truly under civilian control.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #74)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:01 PM

76. Remain as unconvinced as you want

We live in a military dictarstorship.

From that.

"
This is a unique event and the National Guard is doing what it always does, which is to be there to help civil authorities and back them up when there is an event that requires more capabilities than what they can handle," said Kelly.


That is what the guard does, under civilian control.

You keep that head in tin hat foil territory

Yup, the us is just like oh Argentina or Chile in the years of the Juntas

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #76)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:06 PM

77. No, what we live in is a corporate plutocracy

that in the last thirty years or so has moved more and more closer to becoming a dictatorship. The last administration seemed to go on an all out push to make it a dictatorship, and the military went out of their way to help him achieve that.

That is why the military shouldn't be trusted, and that is why joining it in this day and age isn't serving your country, it's harming it.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #77)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:11 PM

80. Okie dokie

Should I help you pack?

Serious.

And I know the problems. I also know the civilians still control the show. Like it or not.

So how fast should we pack your bags?

I mean, nothing will change, just get worst. And we should have whole classes of people.



I prefer to live in reality, where as dire as things are, we still can have a positive effect if we chose to. If people in real dictatorships can, so should we.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #80)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:15 PM

83. I never said we couldn't effect change

Talk about drawing the wrong conclusion. Do you think I would even be here, arguing with you if I didn't think we could effect change? This isn't about whether or not we can effect change. This is about hating the troops. I don't hate the troops. I hate the military. I hate them precisely because they are not a force for change. They are the enforcement arm of the status quo, and without them the status quo wouldn't be shit.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #83)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:23 PM

85. So in your world we should dissolve the military?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #85)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:31 PM

87. Shrink it down,

bring it home (no more of all these bases around the world), pass a law that says we can't go to war unless attacked, and NO MORE MILITARY involvement in law enforcement. That's what I'd do for starters.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #87)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:35 PM

88. Well, wonders never cease

The DOD should be reduced in size, there s no doubt. It's a matter of how. Willy nilly, depression, measured and with a plan, recession.

Of course I would not mind if Congress actually listened when they are told by Generals we don't need that program (Osprey)...that is how much influence they really don't have. The Osprey is but one example of programs the military wants to can but pesky civilians won't let them.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #76)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:12 PM

81. I guess you missed the "active duty" part that was in the article

It wasn't just National Guard, the army's own article there says so. I do believe that's a violation of the Posse Commitatus Act, but hey, who needs things like protections against government abuse when when there's poor people marching in the streets demanding things like health care and better pay, 'eh?

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #81)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:20 PM

84. Yes, they also had active duty

In a certain High School in the South in the 1950s, the 101st. They were ordered there by Ike.

They were under civilian control.

You don't want to get that, your problem.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #84)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:29 PM

86. Congratulations. You went back some 60 years and were able to find something positive that the

military did. Makes all of the torture in Guantanamo and Abu Grahib, the senseless wars in Vietnam and Iraq, the rise of the surveillance state here at home, and the countless acts of repression against dissent that we've had to deal with since then seem totally insignificant.

No wait, actually, it doesn't.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #86)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:37 PM

89. Katrina

The 101st and the 82nd were deployed as well.

That was not sixty years ago.

But hey, you hate them with a passion.

And I could mention all the humanitarian aid they have done and assisted with.

Yes, Guantanamo is an aberration, the AF running operations in Haiti is not, neither is the Christmas tsunami.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #89)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:44 PM

93. You think we couldn't come up with a different system of providing relief

if we really wanted to? And what you are talking about is RELIEF EFFORTS, not law enforcement. There is a difference.

And how many of those soldiers in those two divisions voted for Bush twice, the man who abandoned New Orleans and let it sink? According to exit polls, a majority of them did. And how many of them were left behind in New Orleans because they were too poor to evacuate, due in no small part because our country would rather spend money on the military than investing in social infrastructure?

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #93)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:46 PM

95. Yup, let's leave it in the hands of the states

That have the gear and personnel.

To every example you come back to your talking points. Sorry, won't fall for it.

In fact, at this point it's safe to say we live on two sides of a chasm that cannot be bridged.

Good bye.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #84)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:37 PM

90. Oh and to address an earlier point you made about

how soldiers that have never seen combat long for the experience, well, isn't that kind of a problem right there? The military so fosters a culture of violence and bravado that these young kids entering it become so eager to prove themselves that they actually want to fight a war and don't so much care about who its against. Call me crazy, but I don't think those are really good values to be teaching young people.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #90)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:41 PM

92. No, it's not the culture

This is common across human history. I am sure Hoplites and Legionnaires and Janisaires shared that you don't understand human nature.

Oh how I know? Well, we have found this from common soldiers.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #92)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:47 PM

96. Knowing this is common throughout human history is another reason why we should not

encourage it. We shouldn't pat young people on the back who want to go to war and praise them. We should tell them that war is evil, and that invading smaller nations based on lies is truly evil, and that by participating in it you are participating in evil.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #81)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:55 PM

104. You're right...the "active duty" part was in the article

But the article clearly states that it was the 1-194th that provided crowd control assistance to the St. Paul PD...and the article describes the 1-194th as a National Guard unit.


"That expertise came in handy the afternoon of Sept. 1, when the St. Paul Police Department requested that 150 Minnesota Army National Guard Soldiers from the 1st Combined Arms Battalion, 194th Armor assist them with crowd control downtown, after demonstrators became increasingly aggressive."



The article did say active duty personnel from the various services were there, but it failed to say where the active duty personnel were deployed...unlike the snippet above that states that National Guard personnel were used to assist with crowd control.

It's very likely that the active duty personnel were communications and administrative, with the exception of the Coast Guard who were probably used to patrol the waterways.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:50 PM

75. I served so that people could have the right to hate me.

Or love me. Either way, most that did one of the two never served and had no idea what they were talking about.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:38 PM

91. I Joined

For reasons not listed anywhere in this thread. It has been a very rewarding and educational experience. Seeing fine Americans of all races and creeds live and function as a cohesive unit. Learning to understand myself and others better, to become a better leader.
As my battle buddy said, Love me Hate me, it is all the same. I will keep moving forward in a positive direction. I just ask that when people demand defense budget cuts that they ask for very specific ones, or the books will be balanced on the backs of the troops. In ways many people do not see. Military schools are one of the few institutions that have no gap in learning and test scores between races. Repub like to aim at this one early. R-Ohio in the nineties want to disband this system. The sexy high tech weapons systems will be funded and troops will go with out training, pay raises, and good housing. One of the great ironies that I saw was that Pres. Clinton who was "anti military" spent more on base housing in his time, than most of his predecessors. Upgrading moral and improved the living conditions for a lot of troops.

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Response to 4Q2u2 (Reply #91)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 02:44 PM

94. The cuts have to be to programs the

Military does not want to begin with...the Osprey comes to mind.

That is the beginning of cuts.

Some of us get it.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #94)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:06 PM

97. The Osprey

All though being wildly over budget and delivery, I can tell you firsthand that I think it is a wonderful platform and does enhance operational capabilities. It is faster than Helos, flies higher, and delivers more troops at one time.

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Response to 4Q2u2 (Reply #97)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:17 PM

99. And the Corp still does not want it

There are many other examples as well, some include artillery (I think they finally killed it)... Some are research that should be done if we can afford it, gauss systems.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:10 PM

98. I met an American soldier in a sauna

About 2 years ago in an Ontario community pool center. I was admiring his tattoos thinking he was a Canadian Armed Forces soldier. He said he was visiting his wife's family. He was in Iraq and Afghanistan about 5 times the past 10 years. He had 2 young kids and missed half of their lives already being home only short times before going back overseas. He was from Georgia and joined to better himself. There were no jobs or money for education. He stays in the Army for the benefits for his family. I wished him well and to he safe.

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Response to riverbendviewgal (Reply #98)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:19 PM

100. That is a too common story

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:30 PM

101. Thanks Nadin.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:37 PM

102. Excellent post

It can be a somewhat difficult concept to grasp, but the U.S. military is run by and is accountable to a civilian and duly-elected Commander in Chief, at this time in the person of President Barrack Obama. I personally believe that the military is most effective when preventing rather than engaging in wars. That's where the civilian part comes in -- whether troops are deployed by the CIC to engage in so-called pre-emptive wars (as in Iraq) or to act as a deterrent to discourage war to begin with. Humanitarian assistance in the event of a natural disaster is also an appropriate use of militray capability, especially when there is an associated security need. Members of the armed services do in fact have a say in how the military is run, with their vote, to include a say in who their CIC will be. Also noteworthy to mention that the U.S. Dept of Defense was initially known as the Dept of War. The neocons of this world must have preferred the former designation.

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Response to Zambero (Reply #102)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 03:44 PM

103. I wish we turned back to Dept of War

To be honest. I would love to see that in fact.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:02 PM

105. Perfectly said, nadinbrzezinski! (Although predictably the bullshit has already started upthread.)

You know, that tired crock of horseshit which whines that "Any post which fails to worship the troops is accused of hating them." Lame-ass crap, but some continue to cling to it.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Reply #105)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:05 PM

106. And will continue to cling to it

It's the inability to take personal responsibility as citizens

I make allowances for the young, still in college, or just out of it. We were there...but those who should know better...not really. .

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:51 PM

122. At least I have enough respect for the working class soldier

to realize that they are responsible for their choices. If they participate in an immoral war to make ends meet, they are responsible for making a bad choice. Whoever said doing the right thing is always easy?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:55 PM

123. the most ironic thing about anti military posts on DU

is that the military itself is the purest...and most successful...form of socialism America has ever had.

I get paid for my job in the army, but I also get money for housing, food, clothing, education.

When I get out I'll have my college paid for. I'll be receiving a nice disability check. I can apply for a zero interest home loan.

It's pure socialism and sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who recognizes this.

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Response to WooWooWoo (Reply #123)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 07:00 PM

126. Yup...ain't that the truth

Why the GOP hates the troops. (But not the toys)

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