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Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:09 PM

If you've never served in the military than you can't criticize those who have.

This line,which I've heard here and elsewhere, is bullshit. I don't need to wear a uniform to know that willfully invading foreign nations that pose no threat to you and killing their people with bombs, bullets, and drones is wrong. And just to be clear I consider anyone who enlisted during the Iraq War to be guilty of willfully invading a country that poses no threat to your own. They knew there was a high likelihood of them being sent there. They are just as guilty as the congressman who voted for that war. I don't need to have worn a uniform to know that everyone who participated in, ordered, or covered up acts of torture is scum who need to be arrested.

I don't need to enlist to know any of that, in fact knowing that is a big reason why I will never serve in the military even if they institute a draft. I would rather be thrown in jail than kill people simply because someone orders me to.

149 replies, 9032 views

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Reply If you've never served in the military than you can't criticize those who have. (Original post)
white_wolf Jan 2013 OP
Skittles Jan 2013 #1
Adsos Letter Jan 2013 #5
Skittles Jan 2013 #12
Adsos Letter Jan 2013 #34
Skittles Jan 2013 #36
LineLineLineLineLineLineReply !
Adsos Letter Jan 2013 #39
cliffordu Jan 2013 #109
Skittles Jan 2013 #134
cliffordu Jan 2013 #136
Mojorabbit Jan 2013 #55
Recursion Jan 2013 #22
Solly Mack Jan 2013 #43
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #48
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #69
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #74
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #79
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #2
RedCappedBandit Jan 2013 #3
white_wolf Jan 2013 #8
Major Nikon Jan 2013 #20
RedCappedBandit Jan 2013 #52
southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #88
Major Nikon Jan 2013 #111
southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #115
iiibbb Jan 2013 #145
TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #4
liberal N proud Jan 2013 #6
white_wolf Jan 2013 #10
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #51
Adsos Letter Jan 2013 #64
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #66
jody Jan 2013 #7
white_wolf Jan 2013 #9
Jackpine Radical Jan 2013 #15
white_wolf Jan 2013 #29
Angry Dragon Jan 2013 #77
Egalitarian Thug Jan 2013 #95
Angry Dragon Jan 2013 #105
Egalitarian Thug Jan 2013 #138
Kaleva Jan 2013 #104
Egalitarian Thug Jan 2013 #92
Scuba Jan 2013 #97
jody Jan 2013 #16
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #17
white_wolf Jan 2013 #32
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #35
cliffordu Jan 2013 #110
iiibbb Jan 2013 #146
theKed Jan 2013 #11
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #13
pinboy3niner Jan 2013 #18
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #21
xoom Jan 2013 #63
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #70
xoom Jan 2013 #71
cliffordu Jan 2013 #114
pinboy3niner Jan 2013 #118
cliffordu Jan 2013 #121
xoom Jan 2013 #65
Bigmack Jan 2013 #14
GP6971 Jan 2013 #58
Adsos Letter Jan 2013 #90
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #94
Recursion Jan 2013 #99
pinboy3niner Jan 2013 #103
cliffordu Jan 2013 #116
Bigmack Jan 2013 #149
Recursion Jan 2013 #19
Adsos Letter Jan 2013 #24
Skittles Jan 2013 #31
Recursion Jan 2013 #37
cliffordu Jan 2013 #117
Skittles Jan 2013 #133
cliffordu Jan 2013 #137
LineLineReply .
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #61
Recursion Jan 2013 #72
mike_c Jan 2013 #23
11 Bravo Jan 2013 #25
4 t 4 Jan 2013 #26
DevonRex Jan 2013 #27
theKed Jan 2013 #100
quinnox Jan 2013 #28
patrice Jan 2013 #30
linbarkertx Jan 2013 #33
marmar Jan 2013 #38
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #42
marmar Jan 2013 #44
cliffordu Jan 2013 #119
quinnox Jan 2013 #41
white_wolf Jan 2013 #53
loyalkydem Jan 2013 #40
white_wolf Jan 2013 #49
Agnosticsherbet Jan 2013 #45
leveymg Jan 2013 #46
loyalkydem Jan 2013 #142
leveymg Jan 2013 #148
LineReply .
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #47
rrneck Jan 2013 #50
jody Jan 2013 #54
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #56
Adsos Letter Jan 2013 #57
white_wolf Jan 2013 #59
rrneck Jan 2013 #62
white_wolf Jan 2013 #67
rrneck Jan 2013 #91
quinnox Jan 2013 #60
Drunken Irishman Jan 2013 #83
quinnox Jan 2013 #93
cliffordu Jan 2013 #124
quinnox Jan 2013 #127
LineLineLineLineLineLineReply .
Bobbie Jo Jan 2013 #129
cliffordu Jan 2013 #130
LiberalLoner Jan 2013 #140
rrneck Jan 2013 #87
cliffordu Jan 2013 #128
quinnox Jan 2013 #132
Recursion Jan 2013 #76
rrneck Jan 2013 #96
MicaelS Jan 2013 #68
white_wolf Jan 2013 #73
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #78
atreides1 Jan 2013 #80
Recursion Jan 2013 #84
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #86
Mariana Jan 2013 #107
Logical Jan 2013 #143
Herlong Jan 2013 #75
zbdent Jan 2013 #81
Robb Jan 2013 #82
Arctic Dave Jan 2013 #85
Stinky The Clown Jan 2013 #89
underpants Jan 2013 #98
MNBrewer Jan 2013 #101
Angry Dragon Jan 2013 #141
Shivering Jemmy Jan 2013 #102
white_wolf Jan 2013 #106
jody Jan 2013 #113
cliffordu Jan 2013 #108
Demonaut Jan 2013 #112
Throd Jan 2013 #120
nadinbrzezinski Jan 2013 #123
Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2013 #122
We People Jan 2013 #125
tomg Jan 2013 #126
musical_soul Jan 2013 #131
Bradical79 Jan 2013 #135
cali Jan 2013 #139
iiibbb Jan 2013 #144
treestar Jan 2013 #147

Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:10 PM

1. of course people who have never served can criticize, and they do

however, from the perspective of people who have served, they very often sound ill-informed

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Response to Skittles (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:19 PM

5. This.

Criticism of the military is simply one aspect of freedom of speech. And, as you pointed out, those of us who have served ( and I know you were in the Air Force about the same time period that I was in the Army) recognize that non-military perceptions of the military are often stereotypical.

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Response to Adsos Letter (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:29 PM

12. you got it, Adsos Letter

and you state it very well

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Response to Skittles (Reply #12)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:43 PM

34. Does this entitle me to one "You may dodge one ass-kicking" card?

I hope so...yes INDEED I do.

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Response to Adsos Letter (Reply #34)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:44 PM

36. you know you'd pay me for one

I GOT YOUR NUMBER!!!

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Response to Skittles (Reply #36)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:49 PM

39. !

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Response to Skittles (Reply #36)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:10 PM

109. Hell, Skittles, I'll give you all my comic books,

my two handed Tarot cards, my '54 Thunderbird and my ACTUAL PLASTER CAST

of a secret rockstar's......uh......plaster cast..... for that attention.

All I got to know is when and were.....


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Response to cliffordu (Reply #109)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:34 PM

134. how big is that, er, plaster cast?

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Response to Skittles (Reply #134)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:54 PM

136. Uh.....

Smaller than the Andromeda, yet larger than a pic-a-nic basket.....

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Response to Adsos Letter (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:59 PM

55. You are right

I come from a military family and my first husband was air force. It may be that people look to movies and books to form their perceptions?

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Response to Skittles (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:37 PM

22. This

Criticize away. Also expect me to take it with a grain or two of salt.

Knowing everybody's job better than they do themselves is a God-given American right, and I wouldn't change that for the world.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:51 PM

43. Agree

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Response to Skittles (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:53 PM

48. They often are

Msperception

You can disobey any order if you wanted to.

They are entitled to their uninformed views...we try to educate them. After that...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #48)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:09 PM

69. That's what gets me the most about people like those in the OP

 

Exact same style of shit stirring got several serving members to believe they could disobey orders because "Obama's Birth Certificate".

At least one light colonel did time over that shit in Leavenworth.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #69)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:13 PM

74. A doctor if I remember correctly.

Oh and you mean private so and so.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #74)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:19 PM

79. There was also a captain and there was a major who first volunteered to go to Afghanistan

 

then when he filed suit against the Reserves because he claimed "Obama's Birth Certificate", was told he no longer had to go.

After that, he had his security clearance revoked and lost his civilian job which required the security clearance.

He was also a poster on Freak Repubelick. I took a perverse joy in following his escapades until the day his account was closed at his request.

Yep, shit stirrers like the OP cause real damage to real people's lives with their shit stirring.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:11 PM

2. At this point...popcorn

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:17 PM

3. Nah, enlisted aren't to blame for the war

They should be judged as individuals, because that's what they are. Some serve with the best of intentions. Others don't. They're just regular people. It's not really some enlisted kid's fault that the US government does the things it does.

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Response to RedCappedBandit (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:26 PM

8. They aren't at fault for what the government did, but they are responsible for their own actions.

They knowingly enlisted to serve in Iraq a country that posed no threat to the U.S. They are at least partially responsible for the Iraq War. After all, you can't fight a war without troops.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:35 PM

20. Makes about as much sense as blaming Wal-Mart door greeters for the evils of corporations

Just sayin'

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:54 PM

52. Like I said, they're individuals.

You can't simply lump them all into one category of people who 'enlisted to serve in Iraq'. Such a disingenuous statement really doesn't accomplish anything. You're right, though, in that you don't have to have served to criticize those who have.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:25 PM

88. No offense but that is a dumb comment to make. If I remember right Bush/Cheney were lying

 

to the american people at the time. Americans fell for it and we ended up going into a war we never should have. Now I didn't buy it. Because my husband was in the military and I wanted to know more and we weren't really getting it. The truth is always first to be lost and no one usually wants to hear it. It in many ways was like VN. So many of our young men and women died and came back wounded and had to deal with those terrible issues. Enlisted people do their jobs. If they don't and they are on the first lines people die. It is easy to judge when you aren't having fire fights around you. Many times you don't know who is shooting at you and you have to do your best to make the right decision. I am sure they pray like hell they don't do it wrong. But unfortunately it happens. Sitting in our homes is easy. Lets see people make those decisions on a battle field.

I try very hard not to judge a soldier. I thank them for their service. My husband spent 21 yrs in the Army and he was a good soldier. My father-in-law retired from the Army with 24 yrs and he was a good soldier. In fact he was wounded in VN. He also served in WWII and Korea. Never did anything he wasn't suppose to. My father was in WWII in the Army Air Corp then when the Air Force took over he moved into the Air Force. He also was in Korea and was in VN before it built up. He retired with 22 yrs. So I can honestly say I was very proud of my military family. I also worked for the military at various bases. So there are good and bad soldiers.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #88)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:14 PM

111. I would add that people don't join the military for patriotic or ideological reasons

They do it to support themselves, to support their families, and to improve their station in life. Many never make it to full retirement because even without combat the military is a dangerous place to work.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #111)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:18 PM

115. Well I know my dad and father-in-law both joined because of WWII but both liked the

 

life and they saw it as an opportunity to travel and meet people. My dad would have never met my mother in Italy. He met her after the war was way over. They married and we travelled all over the world. I would never take away from those wonderful trips and places we lived. Same way with my husband and travelling the world. Wouldn't trade it in the world. It's a wonderful life. But it takes special people who are willing to do it and their spouses have to be willing to go with them.

Yes they also stayed and made a career for the benefits at the time. Both my dad and father-in-law when they retired were able to get free health care and dental care for their families. That was in the early 60s. I remember my mother was able to get my little sister her braces when they weren't doing them. Now we have to pay in Tricare. So am 65 and this is the first month am on Medicare and Tricare for Life. I don't know what the difference is between Tricare Primary which I had and Tricare for Life. Unless it means I don't have to pay a co pay any more. I don't know.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:41 AM

145. They don't decide their mission

 

The military does what our publicly elected representatives tell them. The are expected to consider the outcomes of all options, but they are told what outcomes are to be delivered.

If you were alive for the Iraq war you are as to blame for not working hard enough to ensure our representatives are giving the right objectives. Thankfully we do not have a rouge military.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:18 PM

4. One does not have to be able to even boil water, much less cook a meal

to be able to know the food is burnt.

Tell them to pay your taxes or have a Coke and a smile and to shut the fuck up.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:21 PM

6. I have two brothers who prove military intelligence is an oxymoron.

And the use that line on me all the time.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:27 PM

10. I have an nephew who does the same.

The really funny thing is his tour of duty took him to S. Korea. I'm pretty sure the only danger he faced was live damage from drinking too much.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:54 PM

51. You are aware that the line of demarcation

Sees sniper fire regularly...or not.

The Korean War is not over.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #51)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:07 PM

64. Oh, c'mon nadin...

Don't you know it's all fun and games in duty stations like South Korea?

Unless the balloon goes up, that is...

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Response to Adsos Letter (Reply #64)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:09 PM

66. Of course it is

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:24 PM

7. Don't blame E-1s for obeying orders in combat coming from O-10s reporting to the Commander in Chief.

 

That's not too hard to understand.

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Response to jody (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:26 PM

9. Those E-1s choose to enlist.

They choose to put themselves in that situation. They are responsible.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:31 PM

15. No job, no prospect of a job, no way to afford college…

Sometimes people do what they have to in order to get out of a dead-end life path. I won't fault them for that, especially at age 18 with their heads full of Imperial propaganda and recruiters' lies.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:41 PM

29. Then we need to bring jobs back to this country.

Everything you said is legitimate, and I'll admit I went to far to say they were just as guilty as congress, but they are still guilty to an extent.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:15 PM

77. why do you think we are invading those countries??

it is to get those jobs back ...................

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #77)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:36 PM

95. That's possibly the most naive thing (I'm being extremely charitable) I've ever read here. n/t

 

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #95)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:54 PM

105. ...........

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #105)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:54 AM

138. Sorry. This is DU after all and one can never be sure. n/t

 

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:53 PM

104. One can argue that you are just as guilty for not providing alternatives for these people.

One doesn't need to walk a mile in your shoes in order to criticize your lack of results.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing you directly. Just following your line of thinking to its logical conclusion.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:35 PM

92. No, you never "have to" enlist, period. Not one person capable of filling out the enlistment

 

forms doesn't know what the service does for its living. You sign up to kill or help kill other people.

Do you excuse the police that kill and beat civilians for minor offenses? Do you excuse the 'investment counselors' that steal old people's money and churn their accounts to $0? Everybody signs up knowing what they're going to have to do. "Just following orders" is no excuse.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:40 PM

97. Thank you for bringing some sanity to this thread.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:32 PM

16. Those E-1s enlist to serve under CIC Obama you helped elect. If they have been misled as you claim,

 

then aren't you more guilty than they?

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:33 PM

17. And many did to escape the hood

Latte drinking liberals ignore the very real economic draft where soldiers serve to escape.

Jefferson spoke of how bad that is for the nation. Time we listen to Jefferson

If jobs were out there, at living wages, I am betting a good number of recruits would not join.

Life is not black and white...and I don't blame the O-9 as much as I blame the civilian leadership that signs the orders, and you and me who keep electing them.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:42 PM

32. If jobs were out there, at living wages, I am betting a good number of recruits would not join.

Then perhaps we should be focusing our spending efforts on that instead of military toys and propaganda.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #32)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:44 PM

35. Perhaps you missed this by a mile.

And you want to change policy, work for it, but stop blaming the ones sent to do the job obeying orders from the civilians you elect?

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #9)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:14 PM

110. Blah blah blah

Same ignorant shit, different day.

Ya got nothing.

You have my deepest sympathies.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:48 AM

146. You elected or failed to elect representatives to give the military their objectives

 

You use the fruits of our military. (hello internet) You make choices that define the National interests. Nobody's hands are clean if that's the line you're going to take.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:28 PM

11. Oh dear

I agree with you, but still...

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:29 PM

13. See post 87. eom

 

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #13)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:33 PM

18. ...




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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #18)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:37 PM

21. pardon me

 

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #21)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:07 PM

63. RomneyLies

 

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Response to xoom (Reply #63)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:10 PM

70. See Post 91. eom

 

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #70)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:11 PM

71. RomneyLies

 

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #18)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:17 PM

114. You do know that I love you, brother.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #114)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:23 PM

118. Back atcha, brother






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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #118)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:38 PM

121. ONE day in the sun, one day in the rain "over there"

Whether it be the War of the Roses, (lol) or some shithole valley in Afghanistan (From Hannibal to last night)...JUST ONE DAY,

And these precious consumers of life experiences on DU, would STFU.

The 101st armchair division and their ilk would beg God or mommie to get back home.

I know I did, back in the day.

Just sayin'

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #13)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:08 PM

65. RomneyLies

 

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:31 PM

14. You can't criticize the military...

... more clearly - and effectively - than these military heroes....

“War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. War is a racket. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives."
“I spent 33 years in the Marines. Most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism.”
"My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of the higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military."

Gen. Smedley Butler, USMC two time Medal of Honor recipient. 8 Purple Hearts
- - - - -
`I believe that if we had and would keep our dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers out of the business of these (Third World) nations so full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their own. And if unfortunately their revolution must be of the violent type because the `haves' refuse to share with the `have-nots' by any peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American style, which they don’t want and above all don’t want crammed down their throats by Americans.' –
Gen. David Shoup, United States Marine Commandant...Medal of Honor recipient.... 2 Purple Hearts (I'm proud to say that Gen Shoup was my Commandant during the first part of my time in.)
- - - - - -
“I hate it when they say, ‘He gave his life for his country.’ Nobody gives their life for anything. We steal the lives of these kids. We take it away from them. They don’t die for the honor and glory of their country. We kill them.” Admiral Gene LaRocque
- - - - -
"I'm fed up to the ears with old men dreaming up wars for young men to die in."
~George McGovern
- - - - -
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."
Dwight D. Eisenhower

"I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity."
Dwight D. Eisenhower


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Response to Bigmack (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:00 PM

58. I agree

The reality of war pisses off most soldiers

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Response to GP6971 (Reply #58)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:28 PM

90. Agreed

And those quotes are from military men who were highly critical of the system, not the individual soldier who gets stuck with the mess.

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Response to Bigmack (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:36 PM

94. There is nothing soldiers abhor most than war

Especially combat soldiers.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #94)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:45 PM

99. This

If you're not a veteran or refugee, you may hate war. Just not remotely as much as I do.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #99)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:53 PM

103. +47% nt

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Response to Bigmack (Reply #14)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:20 PM

116. So why aren't willing to lay down your life to stop these crimes

instead of boldly proclaiming what you can google???

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #116)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 10:49 AM

149. Translation, please... nt

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:33 PM

19. It's bullshit. OTOH if your exposure to the military is Hollywood

you probably don't know what you're talking about.

That said, criticize away: this Marine, at least, enlisted to protect every asshole's right to pontificate about whatever he wants to.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #19)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:39 PM

24. +1

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Response to Recursion (Reply #19)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:42 PM

31. hey recursion, check out the holiday pic emailed to me from Marines in Afghanistan



I had sent them body warmers, snacks and a Sports Illustrated bikini calendar

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Response to Skittles (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:46 PM

37. High five

Nice. I send a sleeve of Kodiak once a month.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:22 PM

117. Hey. When was the last time I said I loved ya???

You are the best, skittles. Just the best.

But I want my bikini calendar, like, yesterday.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #117)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:32 PM

133. you would have laughed at this

a couple of years ago I ran into a sanctimonious neighbor at the store while I was purchasing a calendar

Neighbor: "How can you send our Marines such smut?"

Me: "EASY; with a big envelope and a customs form!"

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Response to Skittles (Reply #133)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:56 PM

137. Rofl....

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Response to Recursion (Reply #19)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:01 PM

61. .

 

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #61)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:11 PM

72. I take a perverse satisfaction when people criticize military service

"I clearly did my job"

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:37 PM

23. clicked your OP just to say "horse shit," only to find that we think pretty much alike....

eom

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:40 PM

25. I'm curious, where have you heard that here? I've heard it elsewhere, and dismissed it as bullshit,

but I haven't heard that claim made at DU.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:40 PM

26. I agree, short of someone at your front door pointing a gun at your head, or Hitler, there is

no reason for war (! I don't need to wear a uniform to know that willfully invading foreign nations that pose no threat to you and killing their people with bombs, bullets, and drones is wrong). I say I bless you, I'm very sorry for you (that your country did this to you) you are a victim of your country , you deserve better and you must forgive yourself. you are a victim of the bad ideas of the united states president. I had a mother that did everything she could to keep my brother from going to war. I do think if he was drafted she would have made him go to Canada. I Think that's ok, war Is Never the answer.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:41 PM

27. If you had any clue how woefully

uninformed you are about the nature of military service you'd be embarrassed by your post. As it is, perhaps you should simply be embarrassed that you have never had to make the choice between enlisting and letting your children go hungry yet feel the need to lord that superiority over those who have. Funny, but there is no need for a draft when there are no jobs and no hope.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:47 PM

100. Does that mean we should be applauding the MIC

or working harder to fix America?

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:41 PM

28. K&R, that is just one lame talking point among many others

 

that some folks use when they don't like anyone speaking "disrespectfully" about the military. As if it takes a genius to see the whole picture from outside the box.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:42 PM

30. Right and/or wrong, you have a right to your own understandings & so do others. &

It is the particular mix of rights and/or wrongs, validities and/or invalidities, that makes one's own understanding (which ever mix, valid:invalid is the predominant trait of your own understandings) significant in larger events.

I'm with you, I couldn't kill people simply because someone ordered me to, but I equally cannot say, "Better dead than _________________ " and I know that there are those who do think "Better dead than __________________ ."

k, so what to do, as a person of conscience caught in this situation? I don't really know. All I do know is that (e.g. as we are seeing in the gun ownership debate) there are none so blind as those who will not see and the most blind also tend to have the most political inertia, so they pull lots of other more or less benighted folks along with them.

I know it really is just REALLY to facile to put it this way, but the problem is like kicking a dog ("the blind"), because it can't sing opera. It makes monsters out of the dog and you and singing of anykind becomes extinct.

What we must do has to begin with recognizing the limitations upon our more obsolete ideas about how to do it. That's because, if I am to have a right to my own FREE moral conscience, I MUST respect that right in others to the extent that theirs is also free. And it is possible that free honest individuals have chosen the responsibility of doing the best they can to protect others from those who do, in fact, believe and act upon the principle that "Better dead than ___________________ " is true for anyone and everyone, especially as long as it isn't themselves.

This is one of the reasons that what happened under the influence of Evangelical End Timers in the last Republican administration is such a profound sacrilege, because it took all of this and profaned people's efforts to do their best to do what is right with LIES and WAR PROFITEERING and, in the process, also pulled some very sadly deluded folks, lost, foolish, ir-responsible, childish, blind folks along with them, many of whom are maybe somewhat wiser now. And I don't think that judgement and the wrong kind of pressure is going to help any of them figure out his/her own valid:invalid valence, but I do think that it is my responsibility to call upon them to do so as honestly and freely as possible and, thus, to yield to them the same rights of conscience that I claim for myself.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:43 PM

33. If you've never served

First, when the the Westboro Baptist Church start posting threads here?

Second, blaming the serviceman for foreign policy is stupidity in action.

Third, since you-have all the answers, why didn't you run for President the last time around?

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Response to linbarkertx (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:48 PM

38. 'First, when the the Westboro Baptist Church start posting threads here?'


You are seriously comparing a post about criticizing the military to the Westboro Baptist Church? Really?

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Response to marmar (Reply #38)


Response to RomneyLies (Reply #42)


Response to marmar (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:25 PM

119. Yep. Why the fuck not??

I mean, since we're all about posting ignorant hateful posts about Veterans??

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Response to linbarkertx (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:49 PM

41. and let me guess, they are a dirty commie as well

 

the 50s called, and they want their false patriotism talking points back....

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Response to linbarkertx (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:56 PM

53. Wow you really are pathetic.

You've completely bought the propaganda. As to your last line, you know as well as I do that only the wealthy have the money to have a chance at running for president.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:49 PM

40. Now you sound like the anti-Obama people. I'll critizize who I want

don't like it, let me put you on ignore.

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Response to loyalkydem (Reply #40)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:54 PM

49. Did you read past the thread title?

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:51 PM

45. The military can not invade nations without orders from the civilian government.

Blaming the military for wars is wrong. It is the President and Congress who are responsible. Since those bodies are elected, all citizens are responsible.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:52 PM

46. That was Heinlein's idea in Starship Troopers. The vets simply said nobody else votes, and that was

that. But, then the bugs started throwing rocks across interstellar space . . .

"If it can feel fear, we can win"

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Response to leveymg (Reply #46)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:06 AM

142. Nice to know I'm not the only starship troopers fan

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Response to loyalkydem (Reply #142)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:52 AM

148. I read it as a warning not a User's Guide

Robert Heinlein was an enthusiast of military life and discipline and duty, and apparently there are prescriptive elements in here. But, he also enthused about rebellion and revolution, as The Moon is a Harsh Mistress shows. A complex character.

I thought the film version did a good job of unveiling the Fascist undercurrents in the book.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:53 PM

47. .

 

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:54 PM

50. W and Co. lied to the American people to garner support for those wars.

Some people believed those lies, and not a few of them gave their lives for it. Others joined up because they had little opportunity to do otherwise. Still others were just plain patriotic. In the end it was a rich man's war and a poor man's fight. It does no good to lambaste those who sacrificed, and military service is a sacrifice, for the mistakes of the civilians who got us into that mess. The military serves at the pleasure of civilian leadership. This means you. If you want to go blaming anybody, blame yourself.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:58 PM

54. rrneck bullseye! nt

 

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Response to rrneck (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:59 PM

56. Bravo!

 


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Response to rrneck (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:59 PM

57. Indeed. n/t

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Response to rrneck (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:00 PM

59. Why I didn't vote for Bush or the Congress.

How is it my fault? Unless I helped elect the people who voted for those wars I am not responsible.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #59)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:06 PM

62. Just plain bullshit.

And consumerist bullshit at that. If you are a citizen of the United States of America, you are responsible for the actions of your government whether you voted for them or not.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #62)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:09 PM

67. How so? I had nothing to do with the wars. I didn't elect the people who voted for them.

You are operating under the assumption that we actually have some semblance of a democracy in this country. That ended a long time ago, the wealthy and powerful control this country, the common citizens have little to no say.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #67)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:28 PM

91. That's a cheap cop out.

If your are citizen of this country, you are responsible. Your armed forces are guarding the manufacturing and energy interests that make your life possible. Unless you're in the middle of the woods somewhere you enjoy the advantages of our empire just as much as anybody else. Deal with it.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:00 PM

60. so all the troops are patriotic heroes?

 

I'm not sure about that, I have heard about several soldiers who did pretty despicable things like massacre civilians, and also stuff like Abu Ghraib comes to mind too.

In any case, I think the soldiers do bear some personal responsibility for their own decisions, which include volunteering for the military in the first place.


For those interested, here are a couple incidents I'm referring too:

U.S. Soldier Accused of Killing 16 Afghans, Including Women and Children - he killed them with a machine gun while they were sleeping in their beds.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/us-soldier-accused-killing-16-afghans-including-women/story?id=15897098#.UOY7yGmwWSo

Haditha killings - The Haditha killings (also called the Haditha incident or the Haditha massacre) refers to the incident in which 24 unarmed Iraqi men, women and children were killed by a group of United States Marines on November 19, 2005 in Haditha, a city in the western Iraqi province of Al Anbar. All those killed were civilians. The dead included several children and elderly people, who were shot multiple times at close range while unarmed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings





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Response to quinnox (Reply #60)


Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #83)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:36 PM

93. give me a fucking break

 

If you want to go on some tangent with a wild rant that has nothing to do with my post, which is about facts and real life incidents that took place then we have nothing to discuss.

Go look up the links and see what I posted are facts. And if those make you have an emotional and unhinged reaction that has something to do with your past, but truly, has nothing to do with me, I can't help you.

EDITED: I made this response before/while the jury decided to hide their post, but I thank the jury for their decision.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #93)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:46 PM

124. Just because you alerted on that Drunken Irishman post, I'll post it again:

Maybe I'll post it until hell itself comes to get me.

To quote:

"Derp:
That's pretty much what I read here. What a pathetic, heartless, ridiculous response. The fact this time of slime is allowed on DU is absolutely fucking appalling. I don't know what's more sad - the fact your holier than thou piece of shit ass is still allowed to post or that you seriously believe soldiers who volunteered should be held responsible for the decisions many aren't in control of during conflict.

First of all, what the fuck does that even mean? I've seem some stupid shit posted on this forum before ... but that right there takes the cake. They bear responsibility how? What would you like to do to those soldiers? Throw 'em in jail, shoot 'em? Try 'em for murder?

Give me a fucking break.

And yes, this is personal. It's personal because I'm the son of a Vietnam vet who volunteered to join the army and went over to Vietnam. By your definition, and the bastard who wrote this OP, he's somehow deserving of something, which you haven't explained, because, at the age of 16, he believed the military was the best option for him - bought into the lies of the government ... and joined up. He wasn't one those drafted, which really doesn't make a goddamn difference in my book ... but I can already tell your kind, you snotty coward fuck, look your nose down on him and others who volunteer.

You wanna know how my father paid for killing the Vietnamese in America's name? He died. He's fucking dead because he suffered Agent Orange - which gave him cancer and ate away at his brain for the last remaining years of his life. He's no longer on this planet and I'm guessing you're the type of sonofabitch who would say that he's deserving of that type of suffering because he volunteered and it was HIS decision.

That's all I can get out of your cryptic, bullshit, pious view that these people should 'bear some personal responsibility.'

Guess what, fuckwad, many, many - millions, in fact do! They come home and they kill themselves because of their PTSD. They come home and go crazy because they can't handle the shit they went through. Many can't readjust and become homeless and sit on the corner of the street shells of their former selves begging for change, pissin' themselves and then dying in the cold of winter. That's their taking responsibility. These men and women will come home and never be the same ... they will come home knowing they took a life and that will haunt their memories for the remainder of the lives.

I saw this shit first hand. I saw it first hand with my father who wouldn't dare open up about what he witnessed in Vietnam. He wouldn't dare burden me with the horrors he experienced in the jungles - the people he saw murdered ... the crimes he saw committed. But those memories stayed with him until he left this earth.

And I'll tell you something ... my father was not some killer ... he was not some lunatic. He was a kid. He was a kid who was told to fight and shoot and kill. And he did. And then he came home, created a family and died ... a painful death associated with his time in Vietnam.

When my dad died, he had cancer scares, heart problems, brain atrophy, PTSD, weakened bones, nightmares ... some undiagnosed muscle problem that gave him violent shakes when he was asleep and had an unknown infection that the doctors at the VA here couldn't find.

Don't tell me these people don't pay. Don't act smugly on some goddamn message board and suggest they need to pay.

They do and so do their families. But let's admit, you don't care. You don't give two fucks about the soldiers coming home or their families. It's pretty clear in the tone of your post. You think they're criminals who deserve some personal responsibility for their decisions.

I think you're a fucking coward who can only say that without fully understanding the horrors of war. It's so easy spewing that bullshit from the comfort of your house. But why don't you get off your ass and go down to the VFW and tell those veterans they need to bear some personal responsibility.

Do you have what it takes to do that - or are you another loser?

I'm guessing it's the latter. Loser."


And, as Cliffordu, I couldn't have said it better.

Try the VFW. They'll fix you right up!

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #124)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:00 PM

127. nope, I didn't alert on it, that is why I was in the middle of typing a reply to it

 

and then it was hidden because some other duer alerted, and quite rightly, in hindsight. I also think it was a correct decision to hide it, it was pretty off the wall and a bizarre mostly "personal history" focused rant that had little to nothing to do with my post.

Go ahead and re-post it a million times though, for all I care. It will still be the same thing, every time, which is what I described already above.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #124)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:14 PM

129. .

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #129)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:15 PM

130. Thanks,

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #124)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:23 AM

140. +1


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Response to quinnox (Reply #60)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:24 PM

87. No, they are not partiotic heros.

They're just people doing what they think is right, or doing what they have to do and calling it right. They are citizens. Some bear the responsibility better than others. For those who fail there is the UCMJ and their conscience.

The issue has been addressed much better than I ever could:

http://shakespeare.mit.edu/henryv/full.html

KING HENRY V

I dare say you love him not so ill, to wish him here
alone, howsoever you speak this to feel other men's
minds: methinks I could not die any where so
contented as in the king's company; his cause being
just and his quarrel honourable.

WILLIAMS

That's more than we know.

BATES

Ay, or more than we should seek after; for we know
enough, if we know we are the kings subjects: if
his cause be wrong, our obedience to the king wipes
the crime of it out of us.

WILLIAMS

But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath
a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and
arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join
together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at
such a place;' some swearing, some crying for a
surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind
them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their
children rawly left. I am afeard there are few die
well that die in a battle; for how can they
charitably dispose of any thing, when blood is their
argument? Now, if these men do not die well, it
will be a black matter for the king that led them to
it; whom to disobey were against all proportion of
subjection.

KING HENRY V

So, if a son that is by his father sent about
merchandise do sinfully miscarry upon the sea, the
imputation of his wickedness by your rule, should be
imposed upon his father that sent him: or if a
servant, under his master's command transporting a
sum of money, be assailed by robbers and die in
many irreconciled iniquities, you may call the
business of the master the author of the servant's
damnation: but this is not so: the king is not
bound to answer the particular endings of his
soldiers, the father of his son, nor the master of
his servant; for they purpose not their death, when
they purpose their services. Besides, there is no
king, be his cause never so spotless, if it come to
the arbitrement of swords, can try it out with all
unspotted soldiers

...

Every subject's duty is the king's; but every subject's
soul is his own. Therefore should every soldier in
the wars do as every sick man in his bed, wash every
mote out of his conscience: and dying so, death
is to him advantage; or not dying, the time was
blessedly lost wherein such preparation was gained:
and in him that escapes, it were not sin to think
that, making God so free an offer, He let him
outlive that day to see His greatness and to teach
others how they should prepare.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #60)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:10 PM

128. Kinda painting with a REALLY broad brush, right?

I mean you are intelligent enough to use the google and sting a couple of words together to actually make a sentence, right?

You REALLY should know the norm from the outlier.

Shame on you.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #128)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:25 PM

132. "painting with a broad brush" is exactly what I thought the post I was responding to

 

was doing, seemingly painting all the troops as patriotic heroes, or economically disadvantaged people who had no choice but to join the military. Sorry, but I don't buy it. And so I pointed out and linked to a couple of relevant news items from the past that showed this is not the case. Some of the "heroic" soldiers are in fact the complete opposite of that term, as these news stories I linked to prove in a very disturbing manner. And you say shame on me, well, I say shame on those soldiers and those troops who committed those atrocities, which in any book are or should be labeled as war crimes.

And did I say all the troops were this way? Nope. There are some true heroes in the military, just like in other jobs such as health care, police, fire department, etc.

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Response to rrneck (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:15 PM

76. I liked the line from Dr. Zhivago

"Others had better motives: they knew the times were critical, and wanted a man's (or woman's, nowadays -- Recursion) part to play in them."

I know there were times in Iraq that I held my squad's fire when another sergeant might have given the order, and that civilians were saved. I sleep ok at night.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #76)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:40 PM

96. I never served in the military.

In high school I thought about it, but everyone told me I had too big a mouth and I'd spend all my time doing pushups and running laps. They were probably right. So I can't speak with any real authority about what it's like to go to war. But I have friends that went. It changed them. I can see it in their eyes. When their defenses are down I can see pain and regret.

Soldiering is hard dangerous work in peacetime, never mind with some sumbitch shooting at you. I don't "lionize the troops". I almost never thank anyone for their service. But I respect the sacrifice and try to remember they have been to a place I will never have to go.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:09 PM

68. Criticize them all you want from your computer.

It's easy and safe. You're anonymous. There's no risk to you. Do it to a vet's face, and one just might kick your ass. And he, or she, might not even get arrested or prosecuted. And if they did, the jury might find them Not Guilty.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #68)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:12 PM

73. Oh wow the vets can kick my ass.

What does that say about them aside from the fact that they are better fighters than me? It doesn't say their opinion is correct, it doesn't say they are more intelligent. All it says is they are people who can only respond to criticism with violence. As for them not getting arrested or prosecuted that just shows how corrupt the so called "justice" system is.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #73)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:16 PM

78. For the record

Most people will shake their head and walk away. This is whether they are vets or not.

REMFers might get their knickers in a bunch a tad more though.

You are adding to the stereotype, and that ain't a good thing.

What is more, you want to change policy? You are kicking potential allies in the proverbial nuts.

The world is not black and white...perhaps with the passage of years you will learn this...perhaps not.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #73)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:19 PM

80. No Vet who takes the oath seriously will cause you any harm

I'm a Desert Storm vet, but I enlisted in 1978...I took the oath and the most important part of it was to support and defend the Constitution...I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it!

Even if it means defending you from another vet.

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #80)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:22 PM

84. Criticizing vets won't get you beat up

Impersonating one is a different story.

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #80)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:23 PM

86. Yup

But we may disagree with the OP and try to educate.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #68)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:04 PM

107. So that's how you really feel about those freedoms?

You know, the ones veterans are supposed to have been protecting? Really?

I think you should speak for yourself, MicaelS, because you sure as hell don't speak for me. I'm a veteran, and I wouldn't dream of assaulting someone for saying some words I don't like. I also don't expect immunity from prosecution for criminal behavior on account of my service. My fellow citizens may certainly feel free to exercise their freedom of speech in my presence, no matter whether I agree with them or not.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #68)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:11 AM

143. So vets are bully's?

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:15 PM

75. Since you are a soldier in a war against reason

 

Let me assure you there has been no draft instituted. You, my friend, are an army of one.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:19 PM

81. Tell someone who says that to you that the logic is similar to the idea that

Men can't make legislative decisions for women because they don't have vaginas ...

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:21 PM

82. I think of it like people who have never smoked.

Yeah, you might think you get it, and on some level you might have an inkling what it's about. But you never really will.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:23 PM

85. I wonder if the "you can't criticised the grunt" posters would be that forging to an invading

 

occupation?

Do they feel that way towards criminals who rob a store for food?

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:26 PM

89. I guess the rant was okay.

Your point is correct. I don't get your "why" however.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:41 PM

98. A civlian outranks a general

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:47 PM

101. That's like saying if you haven't been a member of the US House or Senate

you can't criticize the Congress.

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #101)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:55 AM

141. +4,962

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:51 PM

102. "just to be clear I consider anyone who enlisted..."

are people supposed to care about what you "consider" to be what?

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Response to Shivering Jemmy (Reply #102)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:00 PM

106. Not at all and nor do I care what you or the other posters here think.

However, the whole point of this forum is to discuss what other people think about politics.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #106)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:17 PM

113. Wish that were so but there is a group that only want people who support their personal beliefs to

 

post.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:06 PM

108. LOL. THAT was easy to type, wasn't it?

I hope if you are ever sent to prison for your 'beliefs', that I am your cellmate.

Love ya, brother....

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:15 PM

112. whatever....wrong on so many levels, not worth these few words to argue

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:36 PM

120. If you've never been a snotty young campus Marxist, you can't criticize those who are.

Get over yourself. Using what you call logic, anybody who voted for Obama is just as guilty of drone strikes as the people that actually control them.

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Response to Throd (Reply #120)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:45 PM

123. The irony

Is that the heroes of the Potemkin are ignored by the premise of the OP.

The USSR never trusted the navy after that, less they get ideas of revolution...

But there was a lot of gray and class solidarity our latte drinking friend is missing.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:40 PM

122. B.S.

 

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:46 PM

125. Those same types of people who have made such statements are same type who criticized

such honored veterans as Senator McGovern and President Carter for being "weak on defense" just because they didn't engage in warmongering...and their presidential opponents did.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:54 PM

126. You noted this in your op:

Last edited Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:41 PM - Edit history (1)

"I would rather be thrown in jail than kill people simply because someone orders me to." After you have faced that, let us know. Never met a vet from my era who didn't respect an actual resister/ co. Never met a co/resister from my era who didn't respect a vet. Probably out there,
i just never met them. I was AR25 100 I think - it was 1970; current regs, though are AR 600 - 43 and concern conscientious objection.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:17 PM

131. You sound like somebody who doesn't know know any veterans or troops.

Obviously, bad stuff does happen in war, sometimes unjustified. If it's unjustified, then I'm all for bringing it to justice.

However, civilian casualties do not typically happen because somebody was ordered to kill. It's usually an accident. It's also been done to them by fellow Iraqis who want more power in their country for themselves. Guess who tries to protect them from rebels. Troops.

If you don't support the war for your own reasons, then fine (and we have pulled out of Iraq anyway, soon to leave Afghanistan). Don't demonize an entire group of people for your cause.

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Response to musical_soul (Reply #131)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:49 PM

135. Civilian casualties in modern warfare

Your post brings up a bothersome topic.

I don't know this for a fact, but it seems most civilian casualties don't happen due to conscious decisions by troops on the ground these days. We often hear about "accidents" like when our drones or missiles unintentionally kill civilians. The way our drone program works though would make me question how accidental many of these tragedies actually are.

While we don't send drones out specifically to target civilians, the pilots use computer algorithms that decide how much civilian lives can be risked depending on the value of the target. You get a high enough profile target hanging out around civilians, and they will fire that missile knowing full well that civilians will die. Meanwhile the "pilot" is sitting in a lovely air conditioned room in front of a computer monitor back here in the states, just like any typical white collar worker, with little to no accountability. From what I've read (in both Rachel Maddow's book and online) it sounds if the algorithm spits out a number in some pre-determined acceptable range, that target is toast along with any other poor soul who happened to be walking by. Though they aren't the targets, I'd still consider that the intentional killing of civilians.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 06:00 AM

139. I have never ever seen that here.

so link to it you poor little put upon and singular speaker of all that is true and brave and real.

gad. you are so frickin' full of yourself.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:31 AM

144. You can criticize all you want.

 

But realize you may be completely off base, and paint yourself as having no credibility.

For instance... If you call them all baby killing war mongers and assume the have an agenda you may very well be way off base. The military has a unique culture for sure... and one of the strongest ingrained traits is following orders and fullfiling your mission in spite of your feelings.

Officers over captain are much smarter and better informed than you might think... If you have an inclination to think otherwise.

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Response to white_wolf (Original post)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:59 AM

147. I haven't heard that one

But agree, everyone will have an opinion, and there is no point to trying to exclude people on grounds like this.

When it comes to Iraq, though, IMO it's an evasion to blame Bush alone or for that matter the middle eastern leaders - we all participate. Unless you refuse to pay taxes, you are financially providing for the troops and equipment. People sign up for the military for many reasons, and aren't to blame for the illegal wars they are sent too. And as a people we elected Bush and a republican Congress and after 911, were all for attacking some target in the middle east in revenge for 911. I don't think we should give ourselves a pass as a nation and blame Bush because we fell for the lies. And it is especially a dodge to blame people for being in the military at the time.

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