If you've never served in the military than you can't criticize those who have.

however, from the perspective of people who have served, they very often sound ill-informed

Criticism of the military is simply one aspect of freedom of speech. And, as you pointed out, those of us who have served ( and I know you were in the Air Force about the same time period that I was in the Army) recognize that non-military perceptions of the military are often stereotypical.

and you state it very well

I hope so...yes INDEED I do.

I GOT YOUR NUMBER!!!

my two handed Tarot cards, my '54 Thunderbird and my ACTUAL PLASTER CAST

of a secret rockstar's......uh......plaster cast..... for that attention.

All I got to know is when and were.....

Smaller than the Andromeda, yet larger than a pic-a-nic basket.....

I come from a military family and my first husband was air force. It may be that people look to movies and books to form their perceptions?

Criticize away. Also expect me to take it with a grain or two of salt.

Knowing everybody's job better than they do themselves is a God-given American right, and I wouldn't change that for the world.

Msperception

You can disobey any order if you wanted to.

They are entitled to their uninformed views...we try to educate them. After that...

Exact same style of shit stirring got several serving members to believe they could disobey orders because "Obama's Birth Certificate".

At least one light colonel did time over that shit in Leavenworth.

Oh and you mean private so and so.

then when he filed suit against the Reserves because he claimed "Obama's Birth Certificate", was told he no longer had to go.

After that, he had his security clearance revoked and lost his civilian job which required the security clearance.

He was also a poster on Freak Repubelick. I took a perverse joy in following his escapades until the day his account was closed at his request.

Yep, shit stirrers like the OP cause real damage to real people's lives with their shit stirring.

They should be judged as individuals, because that's what they are. Some serve with the best of intentions. Others don't. They're just regular people. It's not really some enlisted kid's fault that the US government does the things it does.

They knowingly enlisted to serve in Iraq a country that posed no threat to the U.S. They are at least partially responsible for the Iraq War. After all, you can't fight a war without troops.

Just sayin'

You can't simply lump them all into one category of people who 'enlisted to serve in Iraq'. Such a disingenuous statement really doesn't accomplish anything. You're right, though, in that you don't have to have served to criticize those who have.

to the american people at the time. Americans fell for it and we ended up going into a war we never should have. Now I didn't buy it. Because my husband was in the military and I wanted to know more and we weren't really getting it. The truth is always first to be lost and no one usually wants to hear it. It in many ways was like VN. So many of our young men and women died and came back wounded and had to deal with those terrible issues. Enlisted people do their jobs. If they don't and they are on the first lines people die. It is easy to judge when you aren't having fire fights around you. Many times you don't know who is shooting at you and you have to do your best to make the right decision. I am sure they pray like hell they don't do it wrong. But unfortunately it happens. Sitting in our homes is easy. Lets see people make those decisions on a battle field.

I try very hard not to judge a soldier. I thank them for their service. My husband spent 21 yrs in the Army and he was a good soldier. My father-in-law retired from the Army with 24 yrs and he was a good soldier. In fact he was wounded in VN. He also served in WWII and Korea. Never did anything he wasn't suppose to. My father was in WWII in the Army Air Corp then when the Air Force took over he moved into the Air Force. He also was in Korea and was in VN before it built up. He retired with 22 yrs. So I can honestly say I was very proud of my military family. I also worked for the military at various bases. So there are good and bad soldiers.

They do it to support themselves, to support their families, and to improve their station in life. Many never make it to full retirement because even without combat the military is a dangerous place to work.

life and they saw it as an opportunity to travel and meet people. My dad would have never met my mother in Italy. He met her after the war was way over. They married and we travelled all over the world. I would never take away from those wonderful trips and places we lived. Same way with my husband and travelling the world. Wouldn't trade it in the world. It's a wonderful life. But it takes special people who are willing to do it and their spouses have to be willing to go with them.

Yes they also stayed and made a career for the benefits at the time. Both my dad and father-in-law when they retired were able to get free health care and dental care for their families. That was in the early 60s. I remember my mother was able to get my little sister her braces when they weren't doing them. Now we have to pay in Tricare. So am 65 and this is the first month am on Medicare and Tricare for Life. I don't know what the difference is between Tricare Primary which I had and Tricare for Life. Unless it means I don't have to pay a co pay any more. I don't know.

The military does what our publicly elected representatives tell them. The are expected to consider the outcomes of all options, but they are told what outcomes are to be delivered.

If you were alive for the Iraq war you are as to blame for not working hard enough to ensure our representatives are giving the right objectives. Thankfully we do not have a rouge military.

to be able to know the food is burnt.

Tell them to pay your taxes or have a Coke and a smile and to shut the fuck up.

And the use that line on me all the time.

The really funny thing is his tour of duty took him to S. Korea. I'm pretty sure the only danger he faced was live damage from drinking too much.

Sees sniper fire regularly...or not.

The Korean War is not over.

Don't you know it's all fun and games in duty stations like South Korea?

Unless the balloon goes up, that is...

That's not too hard to understand.

They choose to put themselves in that situation. They are responsible.

Sometimes people do what they have to in order to get out of a dead-end life path. I won't fault them for that, especially at age 18 with their heads full of Imperial propaganda and recruiters' lies.

Everything you said is legitimate, and I'll admit I went to far to say they were just as guilty as congress, but they are still guilty to an extent.

it is to get those jobs back ...................

One doesn't need to walk a mile in your shoes in order to criticize your lack of results.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing you directly. Just following your line of thinking to its logical conclusion.

forms doesn't know what the service does for its living. You sign up to kill or help kill other people.

Do you excuse the police that kill and beat civilians for minor offenses? Do you excuse the 'investment counselors' that steal old people's money and churn their accounts to $0? Everybody signs up knowing what they're going to have to do. "Just following orders" is no excuse.

then aren't you more guilty than they?

Latte drinking liberals ignore the very real economic draft where soldiers serve to escape.

Jefferson spoke of how bad that is for the nation. Time we listen to Jefferson

If jobs were out there, at living wages, I am betting a good number of recruits would not join.

Life is not black and white...and I don't blame the O-9 as much as I blame the civilian leadership that signs the orders, and you and me who keep electing them.

Then perhaps we should be focusing our spending efforts on that instead of military toys and propaganda.

And you want to change policy, work for it, but stop blaming the ones sent to do the job obeying orders from the civilians you elect?

Same ignorant shit, different day.

Ya got nothing.

You have my deepest sympathies.

You use the fruits of our military. (hello internet) You make choices that define the National interests. Nobody's hands are clean if that's the line you're going to take.

I agree with you, but still...

Whether it be the War of the Roses, (lol) or some shithole valley in Afghanistan (From Hannibal to last night)...JUST ONE DAY,

And these precious consumers of life experiences on DU, would STFU.

The 101st armchair division and their ilk would beg God or mommie to get back home.

I know I did, back in the day.

Just sayin'

... more clearly - and effectively - than these military heroes....

“War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. War is a racket. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives."
“I spent 33 years in the Marines. Most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism.”
"My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of the higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military."

Gen. Smedley Butler, USMC two time Medal of Honor recipient. 8 Purple Hearts
- - - - -
`I believe that if we had and would keep our dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers out of the business of these (Third World) nations so full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their own. And if unfortunately their revolution must be of the violent type because the `haves' refuse to share with the `have-nots' by any peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American style, which they don’t want and above all don’t want crammed down their throats by Americans.' –
Gen. David Shoup, United States Marine Commandant...Medal of Honor recipient.... 2 Purple Hearts (I'm proud to say that Gen Shoup was my Commandant during the first part of my time in.)
- - - - - -
“I hate it when they say, ‘He gave his life for his country.’ Nobody gives their life for anything. We steal the lives of these kids. We take it away from them. They don’t die for the honor and glory of their country. We kill them.” Admiral Gene LaRocque
- - - - -
"I'm fed up to the ears with old men dreaming up wars for young men to die in."
~George McGovern
- - - - -
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."
Dwight D. Eisenhower

"I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity."
Dwight D. Eisenhower

The reality of war pisses off most soldiers

And those quotes are from military men who were highly critical of the system, not the individual soldier who gets stuck with the mess.

Especially combat soldiers.

If you're not a veteran or refugee, you may hate war. Just not remotely as much as I do.

instead of boldly proclaiming what you can google???

you probably don't know what you're talking about.

That said, criticize away: this Marine, at least, enlisted to protect every asshole's right to pontificate about whatever he wants to.

I had sent them body warmers, snacks and a Sports Illustrated bikini calendar

Nice. I send a sleeve of Kodiak once a month.

You are the best, skittles. Just the best.

But I want my bikini calendar, like, yesterday.

a couple of years ago I ran into a sanctimonious neighbor at the store while I was purchasing a calendar

Neighbor: "How can you send our Marines such smut?"

Me: "EASY; with a big envelope and a customs form!"

"I clearly did my job"

eom

but I haven't heard that claim made at DU.

no reason for war (! I don't need to wear a uniform to know that willfully invading foreign nations that pose no threat to you and killing their people with bombs, bullets, and drones is wrong). I say I bless you, I'm very sorry for you (that your country did this to you) you are a victim of your country , you deserve better and you must forgive yourself. you are a victim of the bad ideas of the united states president. I had a mother that did everything she could to keep my brother from going to war. I do think if he was drafted she would have made him go to Canada. I Think that's ok, war Is Never the answer.

uninformed you are about the nature of military service you'd be embarrassed by your post. As it is, perhaps you should simply be embarrassed that you have never had to make the choice between enlisting and letting your children go hungry yet feel the need to lord that superiority over those who have. Funny, but there is no need for a draft when there are no jobs and no hope.

or working harder to fix America?

that some folks use when they don't like anyone speaking "disrespectfully" about the military. As if it takes a genius to see the whole picture from outside the box.

It is the particular mix of rights and/or wrongs, validities and/or invalidities, that makes one's own understanding (which ever mix, valid:invalid is the predominant trait of your own understandings) significant in larger events.

I'm with you, I couldn't kill people simply because someone ordered me to, but I equally cannot say, "Better dead than _________________ " and I know that there are those who do think "Better dead than __________________ ."

k, so what to do, as a person of conscience caught in this situation? I don't really know. All I do know is that (e.g. as we are seeing in the gun ownership debate) there are none so blind as those who will not see and the most blind also tend to have the most political inertia, so they pull lots of other more or less benighted folks along with them.

I know it really is just REALLY to facile to put it this way, but the problem is like kicking a dog ("the blind"), because it can't sing opera. It makes monsters out of the dog and you and singing of anykind becomes extinct.

What we must do has to begin with recognizing the limitations upon our more obsolete ideas about how to do it. That's because, if I am to have a right to my own FREE moral conscience, I MUST respect that right in others to the extent that theirs is also free. And it is possible that free honest individuals have chosen the responsibility of doing the best they can to protect others from those who do, in fact, believe and act upon the principle that "Better dead than ___________________ " is true for anyone and everyone, especially as long as it isn't themselves.

This is one of the reasons that what happened under the influence of Evangelical End Timers in the last Republican administration is such a profound sacrilege, because it took all of this and profaned people's efforts to do their best to do what is right with LIES and WAR PROFITEERING and, in the process, also pulled some very sadly deluded folks, lost, foolish, ir-responsible, childish, blind folks along with them, many of whom are maybe somewhat wiser now. And I don't think that judgement and the wrong kind of pressure is going to help any of them figure out his/her own valid:invalid valence, but I do think that it is my responsibility to call upon them to do so as honestly and freely as possible and, thus, to yield to them the same rights of conscience that I claim for myself.

First, when the the Westboro Baptist Church start posting threads here?

Second, blaming the serviceman for foreign policy is stupidity in action.

Third, since you-have all the answers, why didn't you run for President the last time around?

You are seriously comparing a post about criticizing the military to the Westboro Baptist Church? Really?

I mean, since we're all about posting ignorant hateful posts about Veterans??

the 50s called, and they want their false patriotism talking points back....

You've completely bought the propaganda. As to your last line, you know as well as I do that only the wealthy have the money to have a chance at running for president.

don't like it, let me put you on ignore.

Blaming the military for wars is wrong. It is the President and Congress who are responsible. Since those bodies are elected, all citizens are responsible.

that. But, then the bugs started throwing rocks across interstellar space . . .

"If it can feel fear, we can win"

Robert Heinlein was an enthusiast of military life and discipline and duty, and apparently there are prescriptive elements in here. But, he also enthused about rebellion and revolution, as The Moon is a Harsh Mistress shows. A complex character.

I thought the film version did a good job of unveiling the Fascist undercurrents in the book.

Some people believed those lies, and not a few of them gave their lives for it. Others joined up because they had little opportunity to do otherwise. Still others were just plain patriotic. In the end it was a rich man's war and a poor man's fight. It does no good to lambaste those who sacrificed, and military service is a sacrifice, for the mistakes of the civilians who got us into that mess. The military serves at the pleasure of civilian leadership. This means you. If you want to go blaming anybody, blame yourself.

How is it my fault? Unless I helped elect the people who voted for those wars I am not responsible.

And consumerist bullshit at that. If you are a citizen of the United States of America, you are responsible for the actions of your government whether you voted for them or not.

You are operating under the assumption that we actually have some semblance of a democracy in this country. That ended a long time ago, the wealthy and powerful control this country, the common citizens have little to no say.

If your are citizen of this country, you are responsible. Your armed forces are guarding the manufacturing and energy interests that make your life possible. Unless you're in the middle of the woods somewhere you enjoy the advantages of our empire just as much as anybody else. Deal with it.

I'm not sure about that, I have heard about several soldiers who did pretty despicable things like massacre civilians, and also stuff like Abu Ghraib comes to mind too.

In any case, I think the soldiers do bear some personal responsibility for their own decisions, which include volunteering for the military in the first place.


For those interested, here are a couple incidents I'm referring too:

U.S. Soldier Accused of Killing 16 Afghans, Including Women and Children - he killed them with a machine gun while they were sleeping in their beds.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/us-soldier-accused-killing-16-afghans-including-women/story?id=15897098#.UOY7yGmwWSo

Haditha killings - The Haditha killings (also called the Haditha incident or the Haditha massacre) refers to the incident in which 24 unarmed Iraqi men, women and children were killed by a group of United States Marines on November 19, 2005 in Haditha, a city in the western Iraqi province of Al Anbar. All those killed were civilians. The dead included several children and elderly people, who were shot multiple times at close range while unarmed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings

If you want to go on some tangent with a wild rant that has nothing to do with my post, which is about facts and real life incidents that took place then we have nothing to discuss.

Go look up the links and see what I posted are facts. And if those make you have an emotional and unhinged reaction that has something to do with your past, but truly, has nothing to do with me, I can't help you.

EDITED: I made this response before/while the jury decided to hide their post, but I thank the jury for their decision.

Maybe I'll post it until hell itself comes to get me.

To quote:

"Derp:
That's pretty much what I read here. What a pathetic, heartless, ridiculous response. The fact this time of slime is allowed on DU is absolutely fucking appalling. I don't know what's more sad - the fact your holier than thou piece of shit ass is still allowed to post or that you seriously believe soldiers who volunteered should be held responsible for the decisions many aren't in control of during conflict.

First of all, what the fuck does that even mean? I've seem some stupid shit posted on this forum before ... but that right there takes the cake. They bear responsibility how? What would you like to do to those soldiers? Throw 'em in jail, shoot 'em? Try 'em for murder?

Give me a fucking break.

And yes, this is personal. It's personal because I'm the son of a Vietnam vet who volunteered to join the army and went over to Vietnam. By your definition, and the bastard who wrote this OP, he's somehow deserving of something, which you haven't explained, because, at the age of 16, he believed the military was the best option for him - bought into the lies of the government ... and joined up. He wasn't one those drafted, which really doesn't make a goddamn difference in my book ... but I can already tell your kind, you snotty coward fuck, look your nose down on him and others who volunteer.

You wanna know how my father paid for killing the Vietnamese in America's name? He died. He's fucking dead because he suffered Agent Orange - which gave him cancer and ate away at his brain for the last remaining years of his life. He's no longer on this planet and I'm guessing you're the type of sonofabitch who would say that he's deserving of that type of suffering because he volunteered and it was HIS decision.

That's all I can get out of your cryptic, bullshit, pious view that these people should 'bear some personal responsibility.'

Guess what, fuckwad, many, many - millions, in fact do! They come home and they kill themselves because of their PTSD. They come home and go crazy because they can't handle the shit they went through. Many can't readjust and become homeless and sit on the corner of the street shells of their former selves begging for change, pissin' themselves and then dying in the cold of winter. That's their taking responsibility. These men and women will come home and never be the same ... they will come home knowing they took a life and that will haunt their memories for the remainder of the lives.

I saw this shit first hand. I saw it first hand with my father who wouldn't dare open up about what he witnessed in Vietnam. He wouldn't dare burden me with the horrors he experienced in the jungles - the people he saw murdered ... the crimes he saw committed. But those memories stayed with him until he left this earth.

And I'll tell you something ... my father was not some killer ... he was not some lunatic. He was a kid. He was a kid who was told to fight and shoot and kill. And he did. And then he came home, created a family and died ... a painful death associated with his time in Vietnam.

When my dad died, he had cancer scares, heart problems, brain atrophy, PTSD, weakened bones, nightmares ... some undiagnosed muscle problem that gave him violent shakes when he was asleep and had an unknown infection that the doctors at the VA here couldn't find.

Don't tell me these people don't pay. Don't act smugly on some goddamn message board and suggest they need to pay.

They do and so do their families. But let's admit, you don't care. You don't give two fucks about the soldiers coming home or their families. It's pretty clear in the tone of your post. You think they're criminals who deserve some personal responsibility for their decisions.

I think you're a fucking coward who can only say that without fully understanding the horrors of war. It's so easy spewing that bullshit from the comfort of your house. But why don't you get off your ass and go down to the VFW and tell those veterans they need to bear some personal responsibility.

Do you have what it takes to do that - or are you another loser?

I'm guessing it's the latter. Loser."


And, as Cliffordu, I couldn't have said it better.

Try the VFW. They'll fix you right up!

and then it was hidden because some other duer alerted, and quite rightly, in hindsight. I also think it was a correct decision to hide it, it was pretty off the wall and a bizarre mostly "personal history" focused rant that had little to nothing to do with my post.

Go ahead and re-post it a million times though, for all I care. It will still be the same thing, every time, which is what I described already above.

They're just people doing what they think is right, or doing what they have to do and calling it right. They are citizens. Some bear the responsibility better than others. For those who fail there is the UCMJ and their conscience.

The issue has been addressed much better than I ever could:

http://shakespeare.mit.edu/henryv/full.html

KING HENRY V

I dare say you love him not so ill, to wish him here
alone, howsoever you speak this to feel other men's
minds: methinks I could not die any where so
contented as in the king's company; his cause being
just and his quarrel honourable.

WILLIAMS

That's more than we know.

BATES

Ay, or more than we should seek after; for we know
enough, if we know we are the kings subjects: if
his cause be wrong, our obedience to the king wipes
the crime of it out of us.

WILLIAMS

But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath
a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and
arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join
together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at
such a place;' some swearing, some crying for a
surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind
them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their
children rawly left. I am afeard there are few die
well that die in a battle; for how can they
charitably dispose of any thing, when blood is their
argument? Now, if these men do not die well, it
will be a black matter for the king that led them to
it; whom to disobey were against all proportion of
subjection.

KING HENRY V

So, if a son that is by his father sent about
merchandise do sinfully miscarry upon the sea, the
imputation of his wickedness by your rule, should be
imposed upon his father that sent him: or if a
servant, under his master's command transporting a
sum of money, be assailed by robbers and die in
many irreconciled iniquities, you may call the
business of the master the author of the servant's
damnation: but this is not so: the king is not
bound to answer the particular endings of his
soldiers, the father of his son, nor the master of
his servant; for they purpose not their death, when
they purpose their services. Besides, there is no
king, be his cause never so spotless, if it come to
the arbitrement of swords, can try it out with all
unspotted soldiers

...

Every subject's duty is the king's; but every subject's
soul is his own. Therefore should every soldier in
the wars do as every sick man in his bed, wash every
mote out of his conscience: and dying so, death
is to him advantage; or not dying, the time was
blessedly lost wherein such preparation was gained:
and in him that escapes, it were not sin to think
that, making God so free an offer, He let him
outlive that day to see His greatness and to teach
others how they should prepare.

I mean you are intelligent enough to use the google and sting a couple of words together to actually make a sentence, right?

You REALLY should know the norm from the outlier.

Shame on you.

was doing, seemingly painting all the troops as patriotic heroes, or economically disadvantaged people who had no choice but to join the military. Sorry, but I don't buy it. And so I pointed out and linked to a couple of relevant news items from the past that showed this is not the case. Some of the "heroic" soldiers are in fact the complete opposite of that term, as these news stories I linked to prove in a very disturbing manner. And you say shame on me, well, I say shame on those soldiers and those troops who committed those atrocities, which in any book are or should be labeled as war crimes.

And did I say all the troops were this way? Nope. There are some true heroes in the military, just like in other jobs such as health care, police, fire department, etc.

"Others had better motives: they knew the times were critical, and wanted a man's (or woman's, nowadays -- Recursion) part to play in them."

I know there were times in Iraq that I held my squad's fire when another sergeant might have given the order, and that civilians were saved. I sleep ok at night.

In high school I thought about it, but everyone told me I had too big a mouth and I'd spend all my time doing pushups and running laps. They were probably right. So I can't speak with any real authority about what it's like to go to war. But I have friends that went. It changed them. I can see it in their eyes. When their defenses are down I can see pain and regret.

Soldiering is hard dangerous work in peacetime, never mind with some sumbitch shooting at you. I don't "lionize the troops". I almost never thank anyone for their service. But I respect the sacrifice and try to remember they have been to a place I will never have to go.

It's easy and safe. You're anonymous. There's no risk to you. Do it to a vet's face, and one just might kick your ass. And he, or she, might not even get arrested or prosecuted. And if they did, the jury might find them Not Guilty.

What does that say about them aside from the fact that they are better fighters than me? It doesn't say their opinion is correct, it doesn't say they are more intelligent. All it says is they are people who can only respond to criticism with violence. As for them not getting arrested or prosecuted that just shows how corrupt the so called "justice" system is.

Most people will shake their head and walk away. This is whether they are vets or not.

REMFers might get their knickers in a bunch a tad more though.

You are adding to the stereotype, and that ain't a good thing.

What is more, you want to change policy? You are kicking potential allies in the proverbial nuts.

The world is not black and white...perhaps with the passage of years you will learn this...perhaps not.

I'm a Desert Storm vet, but I enlisted in 1978...I took the oath and the most important part of it was to support and defend the Constitution...I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it!

Even if it means defending you from another vet.

Impersonating one is a different story.

But we may disagree with the OP and try to educate.

You know, the ones veterans are supposed to have been protecting? Really?

I think you should speak for yourself, MicaelS, because you sure as hell don't speak for me. I'm a veteran, and I wouldn't dream of assaulting someone for saying some words I don't like. I also don't expect immunity from prosecution for criminal behavior on account of my service. My fellow citizens may certainly feel free to exercise their freedom of speech in my presence, no matter whether I agree with them or not.

Let me assure you there has been no draft instituted. You, my friend, are an army of one.

Men can't make legislative decisions for women because they don't have vaginas ...

Yeah, you might think you get it, and on some level you might have an inkling what it's about. But you never really will.

occupation?

Do they feel that way towards criminals who rob a store for food?

Your point is correct. I don't get your "why" however.

you can't criticize the Congress.

are people supposed to care about what you "consider" to be what?

However, the whole point of this forum is to discuss what other people think about politics.

post.

I hope if you are ever sent to prison for your 'beliefs', that I am your cellmate.

Love ya, brother....

Get over yourself. Using what you call logic, anybody who voted for Obama is just as guilty of drone strikes as the people that actually control them.

Is that the heroes of the Potemkin are ignored by the premise of the OP.

The USSR never trusted the navy after that, less they get ideas of revolution...

But there was a lot of gray and class solidarity our latte drinking friend is missing.

such honored veterans as Senator McGovern and President Carter for being "weak on defense" just because they didn't engage in warmongering...and their presidential opponents did.

"I would rather be thrown in jail than kill people simply because someone orders me to." After you have faced that, let us know. Never met a vet from my era who didn't respect an actual resister/ co. Never met a co/resister from my era who didn't respect a vet. Probably out there,
i just never met them. I was AR25 100 I think - it was 1970; current regs, though are AR 600 - 43 and concern conscientious objection.

Obviously, bad stuff does happen in war, sometimes unjustified. If it's unjustified, then I'm all for bringing it to justice.

However, civilian casualties do not typically happen because somebody was ordered to kill. It's usually an accident. It's also been done to them by fellow Iraqis who want more power in their country for themselves. Guess who tries to protect them from rebels. Troops.

If you don't support the war for your own reasons, then fine (and we have pulled out of Iraq anyway, soon to leave Afghanistan). Don't demonize an entire group of people for your cause.

Your post brings up a bothersome topic.

I don't know this for a fact, but it seems most civilian casualties don't happen due to conscious decisions by troops on the ground these days. We often hear about "accidents" like when our drones or missiles unintentionally kill civilians. The way our drone program works though would make me question how accidental many of these tragedies actually are.

While we don't send drones out specifically to target civilians, the pilots use computer algorithms that decide how much civilian lives can be risked depending on the value of the target. You get a high enough profile target hanging out around civilians, and they will fire that missile knowing full well that civilians will die. Meanwhile the "pilot" is sitting in a lovely air conditioned room in front of a computer monitor back here in the states, just like any typical white collar worker, with little to no accountability. From what I've read (in both Rachel Maddow's book and online) it sounds if the algorithm spits out a number in some pre-determined acceptable range, that target is toast along with any other poor soul who happened to be walking by. Though they aren't the targets, I'd still consider that the intentional killing of civilians.

so link to it you poor little put upon and singular speaker of all that is true and brave and real.

gad. you are so frickin' full of yourself.

But realize you may be completely off base, and paint yourself as having no credibility.

For instance... If you call them all baby killing war mongers and assume the have an agenda you may very well be way off base. The military has a unique culture for sure... and one of the strongest ingrained traits is following orders and fullfiling your mission in spite of your feelings.

Officers over captain are much smarter and better informed than you might think... If you have an inclination to think otherwise.

But agree, everyone will have an opinion, and there is no point to trying to exclude people on grounds like this.

When it comes to Iraq, though, IMO it's an evasion to blame Bush alone or for that matter the middle eastern leaders - we all participate. Unless you refuse to pay taxes, you are financially providing for the troops and equipment. People sign up for the military for many reasons, and aren't to blame for the illegal wars they are sent too. And as a people we elected Bush and a republican Congress and after 911, were all for attacking some target in the middle east in revenge for 911. I don't think we should give ourselves a pass as a nation and blame Bush because we fell for the lies. And it is especially a dodge to blame people for being in the military at the time.