General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNightWatcher
(39,343 posts)I'm sure that ten shots wouldn't work, but you give me 30...
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)is also borderline seditious...
Cary
(11,746 posts)Nadinbrzezinski, my friend..."conservatives" are traitors. They value ideology over our nation. Their loyalty is to their ideology, not to WE, THE PEOPLE.
CTyankee
(63,893 posts)it seems to be a recurring meme. I can only imagine the narrative that goes along with it, like something out of a novel or maybe one of those futuristic movies where there is only this one guy who is left to fight the Enemy State that has taken over America, with only his trusty gun and his wiles. Kind of a tragic hero, doomed yet defiant to the very end...very romantic in its own way. I've heard this enough (only more fleshed out) to where I think it is a common fantasy, perhaps a wish to return to more heroic, noble times. Often it blends in with the modernization of the Civil War where the South wins, or at least goes down fighting to the end...then roll the credits and the lights go up in the theatre as the movie theme music surges...
Undismayed
(76 posts)All those things are useless outside of a combat operation.
Can a bomb enforce a curfew? Can a fighter jet conduct house to house searches? What good is a tank in a city setting? Will a rocket target only combatants? Those things couldn't be used against a homeland insurrection type movement because that's not what they were designed for.
mike_c
(36,270 posts)jmg257
(11,996 posts)Whenever there is an insurrections in any State against its government, the President may, upon the request of its legislature or of its governor if the legislature cannot be convened, call into Federal service such of the militia of the other States, in the number requested by that State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to suppress the insurrection.
Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.
"The President, by using the militia or the armed forces, or both, or by any other means, shall take such measures as he considers necessary to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it
(1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted authorities of that State are unable, fail, or refuse to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that protection; or
(2) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.
In any situation covered by clause (1), the State shall be considered to have denied the equal protection of the laws secured by the Constitution."
"Have fun stormin' da castle."
frylock
(34,825 posts)and level it with an m230 chain gun? I think it could.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Oh Hell Yes.
NickB79
(19,224 posts)Same with drone strikes.
Is that something you're OK with all of a sudden?
frylock
(34,825 posts)but you'll have to forgive me if I don't give two fucking shits about some dumbass who threatens to overthrow the govt with his AR-15 or Mini 30. now run along outside and play with your red herring.
NickB79
(19,224 posts)Than the children of the alleged terrorists we kill every week?
The point of discussing civilian casualties was because Undismayed stated:
All those things are useless outside of a combat operation.
Can a bomb enforce a curfew? Can a fighter jet conduct house to house searches? What good is a tank in a city setting? Will a rocket target only combatants? Those things couldn't be used against a homeland insurrection type movement because that's not what they were designed for.
If you don't give a shit about killing said dumbass with a helicopter gunship strike, you clearly haven't thought through the ramifications of such a strike. You actually made my point for me: that the bulk of the weapons the US military has would be useless in such a fight, unless civilian casualties are considered an acceptable loss.
frylock
(34,825 posts)I am merely pointing out the likely consequences of a so-called armed insurrection by teabaggers and gun humpers.
billh58
(6,635 posts)NRA members against the other 297 million Americans plus the US Military? Really?
You're high, right?...
Undismayed
(76 posts)citizens.
billh58
(6,635 posts)called the Civil War? Not only did they shoot citizens, but family members as well. When a bunch of "water the tree of life with blood" yahoos in cammos wearing wannabe rank patches even THINKS about taking up arms against our government, it won't be a civil war -- it will be mass arrests and martial law.
And you kind of missed the point of my post: there aren't enough 2nd Amendment crazies to make a difference anyway. The police should be able to handle any "rebels" with no help from the National Guard.
Fantasies? Good one Bubba -- look in the mirror...
Undismayed
(76 posts)billh58
(6,635 posts)side simply does not have the numbers, or the support from the vast majority of Americans. As the OP states, "gun nuts are delusional."
Deal with it...
baldguy
(36,649 posts)They also can carry IR and very low light video sensors that can follow you anywhere & know exactly what you're doing.
You have no idea what you'd be up against. Your pea-shooter won't help you.
Undismayed
(76 posts)what then? How exactly will the government justify killing children? Doing that would turn the citizenry against them faster than anything else. Pressing the button to fire the missile is easy. Dealing with the consequences is not. This is what you fail to see. Could the government technically destroy any insurrection movement? Obviously, the weapons at their disposal are formidable. However, it would be a Pyrrhic victory. Any such government would be torn apart by the citizens that it has wronged.
billh58
(6,635 posts)movement which would put a child in harm's way would be ostracized by not only the American people, but by their own members. The NRA is feeding you three meals a day of pure horseshit, and you have the audacity to come before sane, rational people on DU and try and serve it to us?
Once again, there will not be an armed insurrection in the United States of America, especially over the regulation of fucking guns. It is inconceivable that our government would allow any situation to develop which would trigger another Civil War in this country. We would not need the military, as the local and federal police forces should be adequate to contain any idiocy drummed up by KKK and skinhead wannabe soldiers.
The NRA bullshit talk about a "well regulated militia" of armed malcontents going to war with our government is seditious and anti-American. If we were invaded by Mexico, Switzerland or Norway, and the US military needed our help to repel them, then maybe, just maybe, the gun nuts' wet dream might come true and they would be deputized as block wardens.
Until that unlikely scenario, however, no sane, thinking, private American citizen will, or has a cause to, take up arms against our government. Then again, that does not rule out the NRA, nor its most rabid members, does it?
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)Tiananmen Square is in Beijing after all. Drones can enforce a curfew. When a population rises up against its lawful government it usually loses whatever protection citizenship conveyed.
Undismayed
(76 posts)If a population is rising up against its government, something is wrong. Your solution scares me.
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)I was simply pointing out that your statement about tanks is historically incorrect. When a population rises up against a Democratically elected government, you're 100% correct something is wrong...with the nut jobs who think they have some constitutional right to do so.
Bucky
(53,947 posts)until America WAKES UP!! and they all start gunning their way back to the Constitution of government that George Washington intended, in a sort of cross between Ruby Ridge and Red Dawn. You think I'm kidding, but that's exactly the sort of shit fantasized about by that guy who shot up that elementary in Newtown Ct (and his mother, too).
What they fail to remember is that George Washington probably wanted a government a hell of a lot like what we have now and he had his own version of the Tea Party to deal with. It was called the Whiskey Rebellion and they were all bark and no bite too.
OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)Please explain how a bunch of people living in mud/shit huts has been able to thwart two superpowers with no standing army?
I've explained it before, but here (just for your edification):
Your OP ignores the end game of a tyrannical government. The fact that the government has tanks, planes, nukes, and ships is irrelevant. They will not help to control a population at the street level. Those items only serve to make America stronger because we evidently don't give a shit if OTHER countries cities get destroyed... that's not our problem. I fail to see how the US destroying it's own infrastructure is productive to itself. You don't control millions of people in a city by destroying it. We're not talking about little pop-guns defeating a Soviet nuclear strike or anything.
At some point, to maintain or establish government control over The People, government boots will have to hit the ground. And what awaits government forces in the public jungle? Nearly 300,000,000 firearms owned by an estimated 80,000,000 people. If only 10% of gun owners are, as you claim, stupid enough to resist our Armed forces... they would STILL outnumber US ground troops 8 to 3. And the resistance fighters would look American, speak American, be smarter and more educated than other countries/enemies previously faced, and blend in to the rest of society 100%. The collateral damage would be so severe in such a campaign, that more enemy resistance would be created than destroyed with each military action.
If you doubt this is the case, look at Afghanistan. I'm currently stationed in Afghanistan as I type this. These are people who have little infrastructure, they live in mud/shit huts (the ones who aren't lucky enough to find enough trash and nails to construct a hard shelter), an have AKs and other remnants of 1960's technology Cold War souvenirs. Sure, we bombed the shit out of Afg to kick off this campaign. We tossed their fucking salad with billions of dollars of missiles, rockets, bombs, and jets. And what happened when it came time to actually take control? Ten years... over ten years they've resisted the Armed Forces of the most technology advanced and powerful military empire the world has ever known. I have little doubt that our Nation's millions of guns can adequately protect it from it's own government.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)IED deaths account for the largest share of U.S. in-action deaths in Afghanistan
We wondered whether non-IED deaths in Afghanistan are in fact "very, very rare."
We found a report issued by the Brookings Institution titled, "Afghanistan Index: Tracking Variables of Reconstruction & Security in Post-9/11 Afghanistan." Using the data, we were able to determine the annual totals for U.S. deaths caused by IEDs in Afghanistan, the total "hostile" deaths in Afghanistan and, ultimately, the percentage of hostile deaths that were caused by IEDs. The numbers are based in part on totals compiled by an independent monitoring organization called iCasualties.org. (Heres some background about iCasualties.org and the use of its data by media outlets.)
2001: 0 IED deaths, 6 total hostile deaths, 0 percent
2002: 5 IED deaths, 41 total hostile deaths, 12 percent
2003: 1 IED death, 32 total hostile deaths, 3 percent
2004: 12 IED deaths, 29 total hostile deaths, 41 percent
2005: 18 IED deaths, 82 total hostile deaths, 22 percent
2006: 27 IED deaths, 86 total hostile deaths, 32 percent
2007: 33 IED deaths, 92 total hostile deaths, 36 percent
2008: 84 IED deaths, 135 total hostile deaths, 62 percent
2009: 142 IED deaths, 277 total hostile deaths, 51 percent
2010: 257 IED deaths, 465 total hostile deaths, 55 percent
2011 (through July 31): 112 IED deaths, 210 total hostile deaths, 53 percent
We also asked the Pentagon for the official statistics, and they provided them. The two data sets differ for varying technical reasons, but the overall pattern is similar:
2001: 3 IED deaths, 3 killed in action, 100 percent
2002: 6 IED deaths, 18 killed in action, 33 percent
2003: 1 IED deaths, 17 killed in action, 6 percent
2004: 14 IED deaths, 25 killed in action, 56 percent
2005: 23 IED deaths, 66 killed in action, 35 percent
2006: 32 IED deaths, 65 killed in action, 49 percent
2007: 34 IED deaths, 83 killed in action, 41 percent
2008: 68 IED deaths, 132 killed in action, 52 percent
2009: 168 IED deaths, 271 killed in action, 62 percent
2010: 268 IED deaths, 437 killed in action, 61 percent
2011 (partial year): 102 IED deaths, 202 killed in action, 50 percent
By either set of numbers, IED deaths account for the largest share of U.S. in-action deaths in Afghanistan.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)Totally *not* covered by the 2nd am.
OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)I fail to see how that factors into the discussion of legal gun ownership.
The US's military might accounts for nothing in the streets of America, assuming that the US is unwilling to destroy it's own cities & towns. Our military is kickass because, generally, nations carpet-bomb the shit out of other nations without care or regard. Do you really think that the US would start dropping bombs on buildings because a few guys with popguns are hiding in there? At the end of the day, the US could not afford the infrastructure loss that such a campaign would cost. The kind of armed insurrection you describe would HAVE to be fought at the insurgent level.
I'm not saying that gun toters can defeat the US military or government. That's absurd. But the Government/military would be equally unable to defeat civilian militias for no other reason than civilian militias would employ guerrilla-style evasive tactics. It would be a stalemate because neither opposing group would attempt to face the other on equal terms.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Circa 1864.
A civil war, full blown, would see that infrastructure destruction.
Yes, even in the US.
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)Wouldn't be the first time the US bombed its own...
Eleven people, including five children, perished in the blaze. Sixty-one houses burned to the ground. As this article goes to press, for the first time ever the men who ordered a satchel bomb dropped on the home of MOVE members at 6221 Osage Avenue in Philadelphia, and let the resulting fire burn, are answering in court for their actions on that infamous day: May 13, 1985.
http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/hougland_move_massacre.htm
NickB79
(19,224 posts)With easily available materials found in any rural area:
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=oklahoma+city+bombing&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=A59498C677EBED4E26B367DFA0209FF3BA357CC0&selectedIndex=4
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)NickB79
(19,224 posts)My point was that, in such a hypothetical civil war, it would be easy for rebels to make and deploy powerful IED's using locally available materials.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)You're making it progressively clearer (pardon the pun) which side you're on, for those who still may have had some doubts.
tama
(9,137 posts)MIC, banksters, imperialist resource wars, domestic police state fascism, etc. what defines current US state apparatus?
Or are there more than two sides?
Which side is "Civil Disobedience" of Thoreau, Gandhi, MLK and Occupy? Those who believe that non-violent forms of resistance are most efficient at least under current circumstances, but make no absolutist commitment to pacifism?
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)The military has been extremely effective. The failure is in politics.
The military can only remain on foreign soil for so long before people in the US tire of it, so a political victory has to take place before that point is reached.
However, that same dynamic does not occur when you're talking about a domestic deployment of the military. How do I know this? The "war on drugs". We've been fighting it for 50 years now, getting more and more paramilitary, with more and more collateral damage, and the public still overwhelmingly supports it.
And given the difference in training and equipment, I expect the military to be successful against at least 20-to-1 odds. Meaning your 8-to-3 would be easily annihilated.
Because Taliban-supporting Afghanis look entirely different from non-Taliban supporting Afghanis.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)The Taliban was soundly beaten militarily, and US forces continue to do well militarily.
But you don't win a war just militarily. You also have to win the war politically. Diplomats and other political types have to win the political side of the war, and they've failed to do so in Afghanistan, and failed in Iraq and Vietnam.
In those three wars, the "insurgents" just wait out the erosion of political will in the US, which causes the military to be withdrawn.
Which is why you have to go into the war not just with guns and soldiers, but also with diplomats - the latter actually "win" the war after the former wins the fighting.
NickB79
(19,224 posts)With policing and possibly shooting the citizens of their own nation, right?
There's a reason we dehumanize our enemies. The Germans were Krauts, the Japanese were Nips, the Vietnamese were Gooks, the Iraqis were ragheads and haji's.
This is part of the psychological conditioning to allow soldiers to sleep at night and delude themselves that they weren't killing people just like them, that they're not the bad guys. They were killing the Others, the Not-Us, the Enemy.
When the people in that soldier's crosshairs look like Mom, or Dad, or his little brother or sister, how long do you think the US military's will to fight will hold?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)In my experience, active duty soldiers are far more patriotic than tea party. Demonizing the rebels would be pretty easy - after all, the rebels started it.
Or do you think soldiers in the civil war were utterly unwilling to fight?
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Large parts of the military might join the rebellion if it was an RW rebellion.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)And I assure you, lots and lots of soldiers think rebellion is treason, not a goal.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)And just as importantly, their poor deluded followers who believed those talking points?
If you raise a gun against the U.S. government, then you're pretty well fucked. See the OP to this thread for further details.
after the Depression and lot of talk about socialism and internationalism, many if not most American soldiers didn't point their weapons towards other humans, but when required to shoot missed on purpose.
Sure, the efficiency of psychological methods of conditioning people into killing machines have developed and professional army is much easier to condition that way than drafted citizens. But that and robocops instead of officers of peace is hardly something to feel proud of.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Without the bounds of Constitutionality or any morality or ethics or adherence to UN and Geneva Convention treaties, the US easily wins all of those conflicts.
Arm drones with tactical nuclear weapons and biological and chemical weapons, and the guerrillas are toast.
Your AR-15 armed guerillas are at the mercy of the tyrannical government you seek to overthrow obeying numerous conventions of war. But thats the problem, you are overthrowing a tyrannical government because you feel they have problems playing by the proper rules in the first place.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)There are very few afghan traitors, there would be many American "loyalists".
There is too much money to be lost in America, with an insurrection the value of the dollar would drop to near nothing. The real powers that be would make sure any insurrection was snuffed and snuffed quickly.
Apples and Oranges my friend, the reason Afghanistan can shrug off a super power (or two) is because they don't have a strong central government. They don't have to live like insurgents, they live that way every day.
If you put Joe six-pack up against an Afghan insurgent, let me know. I know who I would bet on. I'll even spot you a single shot against a semi.
As you are military, do you know how much training our soldiers get in urban warfare?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Because they sure as hell aren't living in suburban developments. Nor would they be for long.
Pashtun are de facto anarchists.
tama
(9,137 posts)Also Syrian governemnt had quite big army against first peaceful demonstration, then insurrection by not much weaponry, and it's losing.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Tunisia is the least-armed country in the world, with one firearm for every 100,000 residents. Yet it 2011 they managed to overthrow a military dictatorship.
RedCloud
(9,230 posts)And we cannot otherthrow the robber barons.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)They fought the world's largest superpower to a draw, and eventually kicked us out.
JohnnyBoots
(2,969 posts)as well. Also, why is it assumed that the entire military will stay together? I would think most of the trigger pullers are Republican and at least half would fight for the rebel side, taking arms and artillery with them. Is the US Army going to bomb whole neighborhoods to kill one rebel who is not wearing a uniform?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)You keep repeating this nonsensical talking point.
We wiped out the existing government in Iraq and replaced it with one we liked, then we left. That isnt being kicked out.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)And yes we are still in Iraq militarily. I doubt we will leave for a long time.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)bongbong
(5,436 posts)They are super-sensitive about labels.
Although they are at the same time super-tough (in the Rambo sense, at least in their fantasies), they demand RESPECT for the opinions that the NRA has filled them with. So, to let them know you acknowledge their super-sensitive feelings, call them something sweet & innocent, like "Delicate Flowers".
derby378
(30,252 posts)Snark and sneer and paint gun owners as thin-skinned in order to deflect away from your own insecurities.
> ct away from your own insecurities.
If I was insecure I'd get a gun! Like the Flowers do!
Got any more for me?
samsingh
(17,593 posts)Robb
(39,665 posts)And frankly, if it were me in your shoes -- having to defend that -- I'd be more than a little insecure.
So don't feel bad, it's not about you in particular. You're just in an untenable position.
Skittles
(153,122 posts)but they sure get their panties in a wad being called what they are
samsingh
(17,593 posts)but even a rumor of gun control gets emotional posts within seconds.
Response to samsingh (Reply #28)
Post removed
rightsideout
(978 posts)Like (meaning I like that response)
samsingh
(17,593 posts)better to protect democracy through:
1. the ballot box
2. education - every important because an educated poplulation will vote for the betterment of the country
3. no single issue voting
4. don't let yourself be seduced by those using your fears to further their own interests (usually economic, or bigotry).
But, good luck with the knee-jerk responses that violate point 2, 3, and 4 above.
reteachinwi
(579 posts)like civilized people do. Like the constitution was written to do.
Shrike47
(6,913 posts)I do not think they imagine having to fire on American troops, really. In their imaginations, the majority of the military joins them in taking back America for 'real Americans' from the weak, effeminate Left and the shrill but useless Feminazis.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And in a full blown civil war some troops, even units, will.
See Oathkeepers as an example.
samsingh
(17,593 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But some will.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)If the scenario of insurrection was anywhere over in "a few whackjobs taking to the hills with their rifles" territory, then the OP's graphic is pretty valid. It would be Waco on a slightly larger scale, basically. If, however, it's a much more general sort of rising, with at least a significant minority of Americans willing to do violence against the government, then all bets are of in terms of the military's willingness to suppress the insurrection. There is no reason to believe that the military's response to whatever provoked the insurrection would be all that different from that of the general population. there would be loyalists and rebels alike.
Such a scenario pretty much guarantees a fragmented military. A fragmented military's first breakdowns would be in logistics...and without solid logistics, complex weapons and communication systems go offline in a big hurry. Those systems constitute a modern military's biggest advantage over armed civilians. One of their other biggest advantages, man-portable force multipliers like mortars, grenades, and light automatic weapons, would end up on both sides of the conflict (due to defections). In this sort of scenario, civiian weapons are far from trivial.
I make no secret of the fact that I think this nation (as currently constituted) has only got 15-30 years left before it fragments into smaller, regional polities. But dear gods, not like that, not by civil war...
samsingh
(17,593 posts)NickB79
(19,224 posts)I'm sure that, in such a theoretical conflict, there would be soldiers switching sides (in a military force of millions, there are bound to be some). But I don't think there would be tanks driving into rebel camps with white flags on top.
I do think, though, that the act of turning US cities into warzones, complete with firing on fellow US citizens, would be incredibly demoralizing to American troops, so much so that their ability to be an effective fighting force would be seriously compromised.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)I've had this discussion with genuine nutters before. The presumption is that U.S. soldiers might have no problem following "unconstitutional" orders if it doesn't hurt anyone, but that many in the military may have serious problems actually killing their fellow Americans in order to enforce "unconstitutional" orders. At a minimum, they assume that the military would "stand down" rather than kill fellow citizens who are simply engaging in a bit of "patriotic rebellion".
To which I normally reply, "Hey, to the guy in that bomber, or the lady manning the joystick controlling that drone, you're just another dot on a computer screen. No different than any other enemy."
NickB79
(19,224 posts)That I haven't seen in any of my friends who've served in the military, and we're pretty young (28-32 yr old). It's one thing to blow up funny-looking people in weird clothes that don't speak your language in another country far away; quite another to bomb a subdivision in downtown Atlanta or a Walgreens in suburban Dallas.
It would also assume that they couldn't see the results of their actions. Would the videos and pictures of smoldering craters where US neighborhoods once stood be censored from TV and the Internet? Would this military campaign be over in a matter of days, or would it drag on for months or even years?
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)samsingh
(17,593 posts)the amount of money spent on weapons and wars could eliminate poverty, illiteracy, and probably some of the most common diseases.
SunSeeker
(51,522 posts)BlueNoteSpecial
(141 posts)onethatcares
(16,163 posts)overthrow our government, I gotta get out of this place.
what the fuck is so wrong with people that they would want to kill others just because they had to have "health care insurance"?
something is very fucking wrong with this scenario. I would feel so much better if they threatened to revolt because their voting rights
were shredded, their jobs were shitcanned to somewhere else, or because there was too much homelessness.
but no, they threaten to revolt because they can't have multi capacity killing machines in their own homes..............we as a nation are truly fucked.
samsingh
(17,593 posts)FreeBC
(403 posts)The Air Force is a bunch of Jesus freaks.
Response to Playinghardball (Original post)
Post removed
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)That is all
aristocles
(594 posts)Thoughts of open rebellion:
http://www.bob-owens.com/2012/12/what-youll-see-in-the-rebellion/comment-page-1/
Fantasies of a coup against Obama:
http://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2012/09/11/what-i-saw-at-the-coup/
rightsideout
(978 posts)First you have to consider who these people are. Obviously, paranoid schizoids. They don't trust anyone and that includes their own kind. With their big egos, they'll turn on each other and their little rebellion will implode in on themselves. Hopefully they won't take innocent people down with them in the process. Let them waste their lives playing Army in the woods and stew over something that will never happen. Bunch of whackos.
kimbutgar
(21,060 posts)Who is president? I think the FBI should investigate this facebook poster and their group. This is so crazy it needs to be investigated, the person arrested and have their firearms confiscated for attempting to overthrow our government.
Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)Treason is defined in the U.S. Constitution. Look it up.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)with this thread is either disingenuous or ignorant. I don't believe anyone that supports RKBA actually believes they can hold off the U.S. military iif the mlitary is willing to use WMDs upon their own citizens. That's rhe thing, it would not come to that. Nobody thinks they can hold off the force of the entire U.S. government. A local insurrection has actually happened to overthrow corrupt politicians.
http://www.americanheritage.com/content/battle-athens
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)I've seen a lot of similar memes lately talking about how individual firearm ownership poses no challenge to the US military.
The problem with such a position is that it makes a lot of unwarranted and untenable assumptions.
Probably the biggest wrong assumption is that a group of people wearing similar uniforms would line up toe to toe with the military to fight on an open battlefield. That hasn't been a standard tactic since Korea. No, think Viet Nam. Think Afghanistan (either in the 80's against the Soviets or now with the US .mil).
Now imagine that the "battlefields" are the same places where the soldiers live, not "over there somewhere". No geographic distinctions, no 'line' where you can say, "those from this side are okay, those from the other side are not." Unlike in the second world war, there wouldn't be one factory producing munitions for the "loyalists", and another factory on a different side of a line producing munitions for the "rebels". Same range of skin colors, no religious ornamentation to differentiate "us" from "them", no language differences.
Remember the chaos caused by Lee Boyd Malvo in the beltway in 2002? Imagine that times a hundred, or a thousand. Imagine the same number of guys with chain come-a-longs misaligning railroad tracks at railroad yards or even worse- out in the sticks where a derailed train would be screwed. Or the same number of guys taking pot shots at power substations or transformers. Or a concerted effort to snipe workers at the Port of Los Angeles and Miami- how much chaos do you think *that* would cause?
Stochiastic actions such as these are not designed to 'win', but to make maintaining the status quo impossible.
Such a meme also assumes that the military is a monolithic entity. As if, were there serious civil unrest, all the military would remain loyal to whatever party was in power. As if a unit from the Mississippi National Guard would act the same way a unit from the New York National Guard would, if the orders were to subdue a population in New York City. Preposterous. No, you'd see widespread fracturing and dessertion.
No, a person with a rifle can't take on a tank, but tanks are thirsty / hungry beasts, driven by thirsty / hungry people. You don't have to take on a tank, just the tanker truck feeding it or the guy driving it.
There's a saying that, "In battle, a handgun is what you use to fight your way to your rifle." Well, a logical extension of that would be, "A rifle is what you use to fight your way to heavy weaponry."
No, if a "Prophet Nehemiah Scudder" were to be elected and declared himself permanent ruler under a theocracy, it wouldn't be a band of men wearing red armbands calling themselves the "Cabal" who resisted. It would be the same guy who fixes your cable, the cute waitress you make sure to tip well at lunch each week, or the car wash attendant who snaps his towel to get your attention.
CTyankee
(63,893 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)onehandle
(51,122 posts)That's about the only scenario I could ever envision where people would be justified taking up arms against the U.S. government -- should a Christo-Fascist theocracy arise and take hold.
Unfortunately, its also the most likely tyranny scenario, considering the way one of our major political parties is headed now...
Elmergantry
(884 posts)What's also striking is how many of the same people predicting, or even tacitly condoning violent
upheaval in society in response to government apathy and oppression a couple of years ago now
respond with a page full of rolling smileys at the very thought that society might one day be
in a place where it must defend itself against government. Even more striking is that after proclaiming the government to be an oligarchy, teetering on the edge of fascism, and the police being violent, corrupt tools of that oligarchy interested in saving only the 1%, many of those same people are willing to turn over the the citizens' last line of defense, their personal firearms, to that same corrupt oligarchy and place sole responsibility for their security with them.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)of the US Military after them if they refuse to give up their small arms. The strangest part is they are probably part of the large group who's always screaming about military personnel and their propensity for killing and how they're monsters who only joined the military TO kill.
Fucking unbelievable, and worthy of hiding if you ask me. Maybe even more.
On the other hand, I'm guessing the gun-grabbers have already figured out they had better grab all the guns BEFORE they start gutting the military budget...
tabasco
(22,974 posts)in the original OP. It's rather obvious.
Takket
(21,529 posts)we see stories all the time of guys who are "holes up" with a gun in a building. how many times have those guy ever successfully fought off the police and escaped?
Using this as a mini "citizens vs. government" example.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Not much. Order, such as it was, was imposed by soldiers with guns, who had the unaffected resources of the United States to draw upon. The source of the arms, ammunition, food, pay, raw materials, vehicles, fuel, and other necessary items of war were able to flow, unimpeded and inexhaustible, from the US to Iraq.
What is the Air Force or Navy going to bomb? Our own bridges? Our own power plants? Our own train yards? Our own harbors? What is the Army or the Marines going to shell into oblivion? Cities and towns in America? Our own factories and farms? Our own oil pipelines and airports?
There's not going to be an armed rebellion because there is no mood for it. Americans as a whole are fat and happy. The macho bullshit is just that... macho bullshit.