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Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:50 PM

It was all about Wall Street all along. Apparently, this whole theater of the absurd

was because of the effect going over the so-called fiscal cliff would have on the markets. It really has nothing to do with the deficit, the debt ceiling, poor people and seniors sucking up more than they deserve, too many taxes on the privileged, oh well, yeah a little bit about that. It was how it was going to affect the markets. Imagine if they had pulled off the reduction of taxes for the rich, the chained cpi for seniors on Social Security and the other fingers in the pot maneuvers those Repukes tried. The futures market would have boomed among all the speculation that being able to dip into that last pot of money left, the social programs backed by separate funds from separate taxes just for them, would be available to them. They have already raided the Treasury until there is nothing left, but there is still money to be gotten out there in people's health care and pension money.

This is what the markets would react to. Sure if they pass the bill in the House, it will save the markets somewhat. Of course that's all they cared about. This is why our side was even willing to put our Social Security and Medicare on the auction block, which has zero to do with the deficit. They are all beholden to Wall Street. Damn, it's time to take those corporate markets down brick by brick and in the future to elect law makers who don't have corporate logos tatooed all over them.

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Reply It was all about Wall Street all along. Apparently, this whole theater of the absurd (Original post)
Cleita Jan 2013 OP
MightyMopar Jan 2013 #1
Cleita Jan 2013 #2
truedelphi Jan 2013 #14
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #29
Loudly Jan 2013 #3
xtraxritical Jan 2013 #43
Skittles Jan 2013 #4
Cleita Jan 2013 #6
Skittles Jan 2013 #9
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #5
Cleita Jan 2013 #7
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #10
Jim Warren Jan 2013 #8
jtuck004 Jan 2013 #11
truedelphi Jan 2013 #15
leftstreet Jan 2013 #19
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #23
jtuck004 Jan 2013 #24
DiverDave Jan 2013 #32
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #44
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #46
jtuck004 Jan 2013 #47
jtuck004 Jan 2013 #25
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #30
JReed Jan 2013 #12
Amonester Jan 2013 #13
Mosaic Jan 2013 #16
jonthebru Jan 2013 #21
cbrer Jan 2013 #17
grahamhgreen Jan 2013 #18
bubbayugga Jan 2013 #20
hobbit709 Jan 2013 #22
Cleita Jan 2013 #36
earcandle Jan 2013 #26
Jim Warren Jan 2013 #27
graham4anything Jan 2013 #28
Cleita Jan 2013 #31
bvar22 Jan 2013 #38
Solly Mack Jan 2013 #39
99Forever Jan 2013 #33
CanonRay Jan 2013 #34
DireStrike Jan 2013 #35
bvar22 Jan 2013 #37
Cleita Jan 2013 #40
Doctor_J Jan 2013 #41
Cleita Jan 2013 #42
AZ Progressive Jan 2013 #45

Response to Cleita (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:55 PM

1. Insider trading?

 

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Response to MightyMopar (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:55 PM

2. See how the markets react tomorrow and you tell me. eom

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Response to Cleita (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:23 AM

14. I spent my more "formative" years as an adult out in Silicon

Valley, often doing Temp Work.

Often in a six month period, I would be at two or three different companies that would all be about the same new product. The products would be similar in form and function, but created by different designers and run on different software or hardware. And whichever product had a Sugar Daddy that could get a deal going between the Department of Defense and that company was the company whose product went on to become successful.

Yes, often the products were rather identical. But that military connection was what it took to get the company into the Wall Street arena.

Perhaps the one company that succeeded without Department of Defense entanglements was Apple, which substituted the educational and graphic design arenas for the military connections.

Atari also escaped the military connections I think. But I never worked there so cannot say for sure.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 05:27 AM

29. govt contracts = time-honored path to success in the free market

 

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:56 PM

3. Stock futures up strongly right now.

 

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Response to Loudly (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 11:04 PM

43. I saw it coming in Nov. and bought a Jan. 19 DIA call option.

 

When I bought (DIA means Dow Jones Industrial Average) the option, the DOW was at 13007 and I sold it this morning at the peak of 13369. You did not have to be an insider to see this one coming. Those 'baggers are like money in the bank. I'm thinking puts for the debt ceiling debacle. Unload before the President uses the 14th amendment.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:15 PM

4. ah Cleita you are catching on!

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Response to Skittles (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:22 PM

6. Took long enough!

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Response to Cleita (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:32 PM

9. I never wrote you off

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:17 PM

5. The markets ARE hugely important in our economy.

They reflect how people feel about our economy, and also affect the retirement funds of millions of Americans. We should all care about the market.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:23 PM

7. They aren't the end all and be all though.

We can't have the notion that business trumps any decency we might have.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:52 PM

10. Well, no, but that is a thing to consider when negotiating about a fiscal cliff.

How it would affect the economy, of which the market is a huge part.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:26 PM

8. Markets are one thing

It's the marketeers that are the problem.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:15 AM

11. These would be the retirement funds with brochures full of returns at 4, 6, 7% that are only


giving 2% now? Wonder how people feel about a meager social security check and $400 from their pension, paid from what they earned for 28 years? Or the 1/3 of the millions of people on SS at 65, worse off yet with no other income. Don't see how or why their outlook intersects with Mi$$ RobMe and others with a $245,000 a week income, or that even in a month or a year.

Those people with stock holdings are a whole 'nother economy, and the rest don't live on their tailings. The rest live on what the people who in fact have most of the wealth today didn't manage to steal. Yet. I say that because the majority of the people with the assets didn't earn them, they took them from those who earned them.

I am guessing the market is not nearly as important as one might think to 47 million on food stamps, the 50,000 families yanked out of their homes this month, the over 10 million families we euphemistically call "working poor". Their fate might seem dependent on people with stock holdings and their earnings, but it's not. That's a set of policy choices made by others, mostly corporations who direct the government to do their bidding, to create laws that funnel money to them.

Or maybe we have different meanings of "our"





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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:24 AM

15. + Every single person who lost their home, had their job outsourced, etc n/t

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:13 AM

19. +1

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:56 AM

23. You are mistaken. Millions of people rely on 401ks for their retirement...

the 401ks are primarily invested in mutual funds (the stock market). The stock market is a reflection of the economy. If the stock market is down on a long term trend, we are in a recession.

There are poor people who don't have retirement funds, that is true. There are also poor people who don't have a lot of other things. And that is relevant to this discussion how? Are you implying that a middle class person who is saving for retirement shouldn't save and invest in mutual funds because there is a poor person in town?

As I said, millions of people rely on the stock market for their future. Plenty of DU posters point out how they "lost" their savings when the market went down during the recession.

If you can't afford to save for your retirement, as many young people can't, then you may not realize the importance of it. But believe me, it's not just the wealthy who invest in the market. If you have a 401k, you are almost certainly invested in the market. And the lower the market goes, it is the middle class who feel the pain of it the most, and whose retirements are most affected. Obama knows this. I don't think you have any idea of the vast amount of money in retirement accounts of the middle class.

Pensions are invested in the market, as well, if they choose to do that.

Kids have bonds building value to help pay for college. Lots of older people have corporate bonds and bond mutual funds, all of which are part of the market.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #23)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 03:33 AM

24. Maybe, but at least I'm not an unimportant little bully that blames victims and

makes arrogant and condescending assumptions about people who don't have money.

The OP said "It was all about Wall Street all along" and there are millions of victims of those corrupt, vicious, thieving assholes, for whom the market doesn't mean shit.

Tens of millions of aged people have no retirement other than SS. That's a fact, published every month on the SS web site. 1 in 3 seniors with no other income. Getting worse, too. Part of it comes from the dozens of junk bond firms they now call private equity and others who have seen the American worker as nothing more than a means of generating fees. But the profit from their labor wasn't enough, so now they are coming after their very lives.

We graduated 1.75 million college students last year, and now slightly less than 50% say they can't even get a job. No job, no retirement. The kids who have bonds that are building value belong to Mi$4 RobMe and a few thousands of others. All of the rest share a meager portion of the remainder, virtually meaningless amounts for over 100 million other people.

From your post -
"If you can't afford to save for your retirement, as many young people can't, then you may not realize the importance of it."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What the fuck did you just say? I hear this arrogant and condescending bullshit from others, but usually the level of educational attainment here prevents it. Guess not today. Damn ignorant of the facts. Do you get your news from planet Earth, or does being mean-spirited just comes naturally?

It's a little late in the year, but here's hint: If a clock sounds and you start hearing chains, just go along peacefully. Even if he does think your name is Ebeneezer.

According to the last BLS survey for November, 26 million people say they need work. The Jolts survey for the quarter says there are 3.4 million jobs available.

How do you propose those for whom there are no jobs to pay their mortgage, feed the children, pay for schooling save money, AND save for retirement?

You REALLY think they don't understand a WHOLE LOT BETTER THAN YOU what is important? You really think it doesn't stare them in the face every morning, in those eyes?

85% of the kids in EVERY school in the system over here on the West side of the city qualifies for free or reduced price meals. That means they live at less than 200% of poverty. 85% of the families in an 8 square mile neighborhood of a modern American city don't even make the median income for a family. Right across the border is Boise, where 50% of ALL families in the WHOLE school system make so little they qualify for free or reduced price food. These aren't big cities where there is 20%or worse unemployment for black folk. These are mostly WHITE neighborhoods, the people who are supposed to be doing better. But many cities are just as bad, scores upon scores of millions of households.

You suggest that people who can't even get sufficient food should have to depend on saving into a retirement plan and if they don't, in your view, it's because they DON'T UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF IT? Seriously?

Here's a picture of the job recovery of late -



Millions upon millions of jobs disappeared, and the ones that popped up to replace them pay half or less than the old ones.

How do you propose they save money on that? And for those that do have 401k's, (converted from pensions so as to steal fees/$/money from people's investments and put the burden on the worker, leaving the employer free to steal from their labor), would you please explain the utility of banks paying rating agencies fees to designate the highest tranches of a an MBS as AAA, shuffle the bottom tranches and then designate the top 5th of those homely pieces of shitpaper as AAA? Many pensions are REQUIRED to buy AAA debt, (safe as Uncle Sam, eh?). And when those assets went South, who do you think was on the hook? To begin to make that right (because we are still trying to ease out of it, you know) has cost tens of millions of people the opportunity that would have given them a job, food, education, maybe even retirement. So we rewarded the people that screwed us, who stole the money by abrogating their lending standards for profit, here...

WASHINGTON — The American International Group, which has received more than $170 billion in taxpayer bailout money from the Treasury and Federal Reserve, plans to pay about $165 million in bonuses by Sunday to executives in the same business unit that brought the company to the brink of collapse last year.


that was 2009.Think of the $BILLIONS of dollars in bonuses at all the largest banks and payoffs to investors outside the country. Not salaries, but bonuses, payoffs for bringing poverty and tragedy to tens of millions of Americans, money that might have been available for retirement had not their friends in government seen fit to reward them. $26 trillion was pledged.How much was pledged to to the over 10 million families called "working poor", or to the increasing numbers of people on food stamps?

Because of their criminal actions, and those of the politicians that do their bidding, we continue to yank families out of their homes to pay for their thievery, 50,000 this month while we file another 100,000 foreclosures. At the same time we are paying $40 billion a month to the wealthy so their mortgage- backed bonds don't lose value.

Where do you propose the over 5 million families that have been thrown out over the past few years save? Banks want you to have an address. And money.

Here ya go, partial excerpts from a report entitled "The Recession's Ongoing Impact on Children"

Economic conditions for children today are similar to those of a year ago—and much worse than they were in 2007. Millions of families with children have not yet regained ground lost during the recession....
...
An estimated 6.3 million children under the age of 18 are living in families with an unemployed parent during an average month of 2012, based on data through the first nine months of the year. While slightly below the 7 million figure for last year, this is still much higher than five years ago, before the recession. Further, 2.8 million of these children are living with a parent who has been looking for work for six months or longer.
...
More than one in seven Americans, or 46.4 million people, are now receiving food stamps (called Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program or SNAP benefits), 20.2 million more than in the first half of 2007.
...
More than 16 million children were poor in 2011, representing a child poverty rate of 22.5 percent, according to data from the American Community Survey. Using state-specific data on unemployment rates and SNAP caseloads, the authors predict that child poverty will remain at a similar level in 2012. In other words, more than one in five children are growing up in families with very low incomes (less than $18,000 for a family of three in 2011).


You want to know who really gives a rat's ass about the money in the market? It's the people with most of the money...



The folks on and below that median $50K line have nearly nothing of the universe of assets, stocks and bonds. over 87% of ALL wealth is held by the people above that, leaving a couple hundred million people to share in the crumbs that are left.

What happens in the "market" for these people is often nothing more than a measure by which they have been screwed.

Go find someone else to tell your story to. I gotta go get the taste out of my mouth.












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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #24)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:05 AM

32. Thank you.

it's worse then I thought...god damn them to hell.
But there aint no god, so they will get away with it.
Unless we all rise up, and I hope we do.

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #24)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:53 PM

44. Name calling because you disagree with another poster?

Hmmmm.

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #24)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:10 PM

46. Placing arrogant little bully on ignore.

When I said young people who can't afford to contribute to their 401ks may not understand the importance of it, it's because of (1) their youth (you know how young people think they'll live forever, and see life through a healthy prism, and old age is not even on their radar), and (2) because they can't participate, they don't give it a lot of thought. I know I didn't. (of course, there weren't 401ks when I was younger)

If you want those college kids to have jobs, then you are saying you want the stock market to be healthy. The stock market is a reflection of the health of businesses.

The fact that some cannot buy a computer is not a reason for YOU not to buy one. If you are wealthy, you can contribute to a charity that helps the poor buy computers, if you want. Or you can buy computers for people directly. But you probably have a computer, despite the fact that many around you can't afford one.

The middle class, as we ALL know, is the economic engine of the country. Many middle class people (not all) have 401ks or pension plans invested in the stock market. Their retirement security is dependent on it. That is a valid concern by me, by you, by our government.

The fact that rich people play in the stock market is no reason not to be concerned about the pensions and other retirement accounts of the middle class. Why don't you care about that? If you do, it does not mean you don't care about the poor. You can still hate the rich, if you want, even if you care about the stock market! So that should make you feel better!

My point is...the market is a huge part of our economy. If you want the economy to get better, then you want the stock market to do better, as well. They don't always go hand in hand every day, but generally they are both up or both down over a period of time.

So the question is...do you care if college kids have jobs and that the economy gets better? If you do, then you care that the stock market gets better. It's the same thing.

Notice that I didn't call you one name, or insult you in any way. That's called a discussion of an issue. It's usually done without name calling and personally attacking someone, esp when you didn't quite understand what you were responding to.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #46)

Fri Jan 4, 2013, 01:01 PM

47. Well, 50,000 people a month being foreclosed on, 26 million wanting jobs, all those are


on ignore and have been for a few years now, so I am in good company

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #23)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 04:53 AM

25. And: Table 1: Distribution of net worth and financial wealth in the United States, 1983-2010

Here.


Total Net Worth 2010
__________ Top 1 percent_____Next 19 percent_____Bottom 80 percent

2010_________35.4%_____________53.5%_____________11.1%


Financial (Non-Home) Wealth
___________Top 1 percent_____Next 19 percent_____Bottom 80 percent

2010_________42.1%___________53.5%______________4.7%

How do you save for retirement when someone else is stealing your income?

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #23)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 05:30 AM

30. the stock market has fuck all to do with whether we're in recession or not. & 2/3 of retirees

 

rely on social security for half or more of their retirement income.

only the top 3rd of the population, the upper middle class and the upper class, has any substantial money in the stock market.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:15 AM

12. K&R

 

n/t

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:18 AM

13. Voila.

Double-dip recession (if not total meltdown), millions of jobs saved (for now).

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:40 AM

16. Superman saved the day

Just in time for the Asian markets to open. Now he's flying back to paradise in Hawaii. Lucky duck.

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Response to Mosaic (Reply #16)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:25 AM

21. He deserves it.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:46 AM

17. Corporate Goons ARE our politicians

 

In too many cases

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:47 AM

18. Dont be suprised if you see the markets tank on the news.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:20 AM

20. It's all fun and games until the 401 Ks start crashing.

 

I don't think you can point fingers at wall street without pointing fingers at investment bankers either.

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Response to bubbayugga (Reply #20)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:32 AM

22. Our 401K became .401k before I was able to retire.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:09 PM

36. Lost mine in the Bush economy post Clinton. The income went down to nada and

then the principal went. The market really means nothing to the middle class.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 04:55 AM

26. or build ourselves up brick by brick

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Response to earcandle (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 04:56 AM

27. Or start throwing bricks

...

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 05:05 AM

28. Go vote for Ralph Nader or another 3rd party but remember-

 

they will get you what you want.(NOT)
but Go vote for Ralph Nader and become one of the ites.

as I just posted elsewhere-
everything bad that happened can direclty be tied in a straight line back to 2000 and Ralph Nader

Including the 2000 election

without Nader in the race, perhaps 10 million more people would have voted
without Nader in the race, Al Gore would have won
without Nader in the race, Alito and Roberts would not have won
without Nader in the race, corporate personhood wouldn't have happened
without Nader in the race, NH would have gone to Al Gore
without Nader in the race five to ten million more would have voted and voted enough to give Al Gore four more states without Florida even
Wihtout Nader in the race, they wouldn't have bothered to steal Florida as Gore would have had 270 without Florida

without Ralph Nader 12/12/2000 would not have occured as Al Gore would have won 11/2000

everything bad happened because of 3rd parties and Ralph Nader

Six degrees of separation has shown it.
2000 was the LEAST number of voters coming to the polls, because of Ralph Nader saying why bother voting, Bush and Gore were one and the same

Six degrees of Ralph Nader


Me, I thank God that Barack Obama was put on earth to be here where he is in this time of need in the US of A.
Best damn President since LBJ, FDR, Lincoln
(and there were some who hated them too.)

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #28)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 06:59 AM

31. Who ever said anything about voting for Nader or third party?

We need to make the Democratic Party honest. It has become corrupt although there are still good Democrats to work with.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #28)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:40 PM

38. WOW...Ralph Nader is a SUPERMAN!!!

This mild mannered Consumer Activist
knocked the wheels off the entire Democratic Party in 2000,
and single handedly caused Gore to LOSE!

Now THAT is a Superman!


Was Nader really as strong as you imagine?

...OR

Was the Centrist New Democrat Party that weak after 8 years of triangulation
and moving to The Right.


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Response to graham4anything (Reply #28)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:04 PM

39. Word for the day: Fallacy

Lesson for the day: Red Herring

Example of Lesson: See post # 28.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:13 AM

33. You got it, Cleita.

It's a 1%ers scam. (as in all of it)

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 08:43 AM

34. They know our whole financial system is a house of cards

and are very afraid of making waves that may bring the whole mess tumbling down.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 08:47 AM

35. "The market" - the biggest bullshit excuse to give money to the rich

If the market tanks, the only thing it means is that rich people will cry and throw tantrums with their money. So we have to take care of their pet for them so they don't wreck the economy.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:35 PM

37. There is a New GOD in town.



The Graven Image on The Altar of the Church of Free Markets





When this New God demands a Sacrifice,
his Temple Acolytes rush to perform their duties.



All Hail the Invisible Hand.
The Invisible Hand will Save us All!



Sorry, Virginia,
but there IS no such thing as "Free Markets".
There is no such thing as "Free Trade",
and there is no Giant Invisible Hand.
The RICH made that shit up
to get MORE MONEY for themselves.
They used smooth talking Con Men to sell it to gullible Americans.



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #37)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:53 PM

40. No kidding!

Time to formulate a new economic religion. Time to smash the graven images. I think the Pentagon and outsourced military spending is a good place to start.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 06:49 PM

41. Yep. BUT, if the 1% and Wall Street DID get pissed off,

they could certainly ruin the rest of us without even breathing hard. So there's that. It saddens me how so many DUers were played during this, and are celebrating this "victory" so lustily today. But it is way better than it could have been, so :hooray:

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #41)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:34 PM

42. Agree. We've been

played again, but as long as our leaders are beholden to the 1%, I don't see them behaving differently. They may promise us every thing but what we will get delivered is a few bones and mostly what the 1% want.

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Response to Cleita (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:56 PM

45. Wall Street is the holy temple of the God of Mammon

Don't you realize that America is controlled by the religion of Capitalism which worships Mammon, the true God of America? What else would you expect from Congress?

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