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Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:11 PM

 

KEY POINT: All The Debt Ceiling does is allow for spending money CONGRESS ALREADY ALLOCATED!!!

Hit it hard and long. Those words MUST be repeated over and over and over again in the next two months.

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Reply KEY POINT: All The Debt Ceiling does is allow for spending money CONGRESS ALREADY ALLOCATED!!! (Original post)
RomneyLies Jan 2013 OP
Panasonic Jan 2013 #1
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #2
Panasonic Jan 2013 #3
TreasonousBastard Jan 2013 #4
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #6
TreasonousBastard Jan 2013 #9
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #10
TreasonousBastard Jan 2013 #12
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #13
TreasonousBastard Jan 2013 #16
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #18
yodermon Jan 2013 #5
Igel Jan 2013 #20
warrior1 Jan 2013 #7
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #8
Redfairen Jan 2013 #11
TreasonousBastard Jan 2013 #14
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #15
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #17
Redfairen Jan 2013 #19
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #21
Redfairen Jan 2013 #22
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #23
Redfairen Jan 2013 #24
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #25
Redfairen Jan 2013 #26
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #27
Agschmid Jan 2013 #28
RomneyLies Jan 2013 #29

Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:17 PM

1. Plus, Obama has an ace up his sleeve: the 14th Amendment

 

He is not obligated to agree to a debt ceiling, and should NOT.

May we remind the Republicans how many times did they agree to a debt ceiling during the * years?

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Response to Panasonic (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:18 PM

2. Yep, conflicting laws

 

One law says spend the money, the other law says he can't spend the money.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:23 PM

3. The 14th Amendment is the law of the land.

 

Overrules whatever the Rethuglicans want.

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Response to Panasonic (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:05 PM

4. As far as I know, Section 4 has never been tested...

for this so we don't know what would happen in the Constitutional crisis should Treasury just send out checks without the debt ceiling being lifted. We do know that Clinton said it was workable-- but that was when he wasn't President any more, so he may have been just shooting his mouth off.

Ya see, it was a Reconstruction amendment when they were more concerned about Confederate debts after reunification. Now, while we are required to pay the debts, there is no Constitutional mechanism for incurring the debt or setting debt limits. There is, however, mention of Congress dealing with all this, and they have-- with the debt ceiling.

Constitutional law experts are debating all this as we speak.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:19 PM

6. There's always the 31 USC § 5112 (k) Option

 

31 USC § 5112 - Denominations, specifications, and design of coins

(k) The Secretary may mint and issue platinum bullion coins and proof platinum coins in accordance with such specifications, designs, varieties, quantities, denominations, and inscriptions as the Secretary, in the Secretary’s discretion, may prescribe from time to time.


So the Treasury Secretary prescribes the minting of a few $1 trillion platinum coins, and deposits them in the Federal Reserve.

Problem solved and it forces the hands of the babies who want to hold the full faith and credit of the United States hostage.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:40 PM

9. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:43 PM

10. It means that.under the law, the Treasury Secretary has the power to strike a $1 trillion coin

 

Mint three coins, deposit them in the Federal Reserve, then spend the money paying the bills.

Once the debt ceiling is raised, the Treasury issues securities, secures funding, purchases the coins back, and places them in Fort Knox for the next stupid assed debt ceiling bullshit.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:49 PM

12. The trillion dollar coin is what makes no sense...

bullion coins are issued by weight and are valued at a small premium over whatever the value of the precious metal.

They are ways to own small amounts of gold, platinum, or whatever and are really just a cute way for Treasury to guarantee the fineness of the metal.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:54 PM

13. Under the wording of the law, the Secretary may determine the denomination

 

That is regardless of the value of the metal, under the law.

It's a loophole due to a lazy Congressional Aide who wrote the thing.

The Congress gave the Secretary full discretion as to denomination.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:57 PM

16. But they never have done anything that stupid. And...

hopefully never will.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:59 PM

18. With the fucknuts in the GOP Caucus, there may be no choice. n/t

 

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Response to Panasonic (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:14 PM

5. bond buyers under a 14th amendmend edict run the risk of the SC

Declaring their sale Unconstitutional. Big risk. This in and of itself could cause a collapse in confidence of full faith & credit of the US (ie market forces). Doubt Obama would go that route. Although better than outright default. ..so who knows.

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Response to yodermon (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:39 PM

20. Avoiding outright default is easy.

Tax revenues are more than enough to pay the interest.

The only question is one of timing: If the choice is to reduce spending now on "non public debt" (things like current accounts, entitlement disbursements) or put the Treasury in the positing of necessarily defaulting on public debt in two weeks, what would the president do?

Actually, it's not a serious question. We know what he did last time.

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Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:20 PM

7. they know that

they just don't give a fuck

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Response to warrior1 (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:23 PM

8. THEY know it.

 

The vast majority of the American People do not.

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Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:45 PM

11. "The Congress shall have power...to borrow money on the credit of the United States."

So says article 1, section 8 of the Constitution. Are we saying that congressional power is now a presidential power? It sounds a bit like the "unitary executive" theory so cherished by Dubya.

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Response to Redfairen (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:54 PM

14. The last debt crisis brouhaha had a lot of people suggesting...

Obama try one of these end runs around Congress.

The cooler heads that prevailed knew that it would immediately start a Constitutional crisis that maybe the Supreme Court could decide, or maybe not. They decided it was too big a gamble with really bad odds and not worth trying.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:56 PM

15. The last time they didn't think there was enough fucknuttery in the GOP House to actually do it, too

 

They were proved wrong in the end.

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Response to Redfairen (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:57 PM

17. Point being, the Congress ALREADY SPENT THE MONEY

 

and now they REFUSE TO BORROW THE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:38 PM

19. There's one big problem with that.

Let's say you're interpretation of the 14th amendment is correct. When Congress refuses to provide cash there is nothing which would require the president to BORROW. He could simply refuse to pay entitlements because it would cause a crisis which would call the validity of the debt into question.

What you're really saying is that the president can ignore laws, in this case the debt ceiling law. Well, if he can just ignore the debt ceiling law then he can also ignore the laws which actually spent the money. He can say the 14th amendment debt restriction is more important so he's just not going to pay out benefits and run up debt. Your constitutional problem is solved.

This is exactly where a Republican president would go with your idea.


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Response to Redfairen (Reply #19)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:43 PM

21. Please, stop putting fucking words in my mouth.

 

I said not one fucking thing about the 14th amendment.

Nothing I have posted cna be construed as having ANYTHING to do with the 14th amendment.

The point is, Congress SPENT THE FUCKING MONEY and when he bills are due they REFUSE TO TAKE OUT A LOAN to pay the fucking bills.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:48 PM

22. You're not getting it.

You're saying the president can ignore laws, for instance, debt ceiling laws. Well, if he can ignore a debt ceiling law then he can also ignore spending laws. He can refuse to pay entitlement benefits to the public in order to avoid debt. This is where your argument leads. You know damn well a Republican would do that. It doesn't work to play this game.

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Response to Redfairen (Reply #22)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:51 PM

23. I SAID NO SUCH FUCKING THING!

 

AGAIN, STOP FUCKING PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!



The Congress SPENT THE FUCKING MONEY and when the bills come due, the Congress REFUSES TO TAKE OUT A LOAN TO PAY THE BILLS!

Nowhere in that statement do I say JAck all about anything about the president.

STOP FUCKING PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:59 PM

24. OK then........

if not the president, then who will do the borrowing you propose?

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Response to Redfairen (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:02 PM

25. Man, you just do not fucking get it, do you?

 

The point is to put the pressure on the Congress from the Americna People because the American People simply do not understand the dynamics right now.

If the Left constantly hits home that the money is spent and the Congress refuses to take out a loan for money it already spent, it puts pressure on the Congress to do the right thing.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:17 PM

26. Good deal, write to Congress.

That's a fine idea. You were also talking about the Treasury Secretary printing money and spending it. That's a presidential action. Sorry I took it wrong. No hard feelings, OK?

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Response to Redfairen (Reply #26)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:24 PM

27. No hard feelings

 

Minting platinum coins in $1 trillion denominations would be an absolute last resort move. It takes advantage of a loophole written into the law.

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Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:26 PM

28. Obama just said that in his speech!

Less drama puhleaaaaze

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:29 PM

29. It needs to be repeated time after time after time.

 

The American People don't quite understand it.

Once people understand that Congress already spent the money and now they are unwilling to take out a loan to pay for what they already spent, there will be a massive movement of anger against the Congress for DARING to refuse to pay the bills.

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