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Tue Jan 1, 2013, 03:42 PM

wowsers. this emphatically refutes the 'need a gun to stop a bad guy' thing. how did i miss this?!?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2153505/Ian-Lee-Stawicki-Seattle-gun-massacre-hero-reveals-vowed-hide-table-brother-died-9-11.html

that should read "hero reveals he vowed to NEVER hide under a table after his brother died"



'I just threw the frigging stool at him, legs first,' he told police. 'My brother died in the World Trade Center. I promised myself, if something like this ever happened, I would never hide under a table.

***

Police said more people could have been injured or even killed at the cafe were it not for the actions of Adams.

'The hero picked up a stool and threw it at the suspect. Hit him. Picked up another stool, as the suspect is shooting and now pointing (a gun) at him and hits him with another stool,' Assistant Chief Jim Pugel said.




holy freakin' moly.

no comment, mind BLOWN!!!


114 replies, 8747 views

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Reply wowsers. this emphatically refutes the 'need a gun to stop a bad guy' thing. how did i miss this?!? (Original post)
farminator3000 Jan 2013 OP
intaglio Jan 2013 #1
NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #2
CTyankee Jan 2013 #5
NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #6
CTyankee Jan 2013 #7
NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #8
CTyankee Jan 2013 #9
Mojorabbit Jan 2013 #30
Robb Jan 2013 #3
Brickbat Jan 2013 #10
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #12
Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #13
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #14
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #15
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #17
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #18
JoeBlowToo Jan 2013 #82
OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #97
JoeBlowToo Jan 2013 #108
Robb Jan 2013 #16
jberryhill Jan 2013 #27
Squatter Jan 2013 #90
MrScorpio Jan 2013 #91
Bake Jan 2013 #69
Robb Jan 2013 #85
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #21
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #59
Warpy Jan 2013 #107
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #4
mokawanis Jan 2013 #11
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #19
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #26
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #33
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #45
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #57
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #60
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #76
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #98
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #65
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #80
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #87
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #103
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #110
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #105
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #109
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #113
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #20
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #23
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #24
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #28
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #32
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #46
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #55
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #62
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #66
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #75
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #84
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #92
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #99
Jenoch Jan 2013 #67
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #74
Jenoch Jan 2013 #89
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #93
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #100
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #101
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #111
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #112
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #114
sarisataka Jan 2013 #22
politicaljunkie41910 Jan 2013 #25
ileus Jan 2013 #29
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #35
Jenoch Jan 2013 #31
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #34
Jenoch Jan 2013 #36
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #37
Jenoch Jan 2013 #39
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #40
Jenoch Jan 2013 #44
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #49
Jenoch Jan 2013 #50
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #41
Jenoch Jan 2013 #42
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #47
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #51
SQUEE Jan 2013 #61
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #72
SQUEE Jan 2013 #86
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #88
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #94
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #95
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #64
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #70
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #73
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #38
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #48
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #53
bongbong Jan 2013 #56
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #58
jp76 Jan 2013 #63
GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #68
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #71
rrneck Jan 2013 #43
Buzz Clik Jan 2013 #52
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #54
ThoughtCriminal Jan 2013 #77
slackmaster Jan 2013 #78
Walk away Jan 2013 #79
Yo_Mama Jan 2013 #81
LanternWaste Jan 2013 #83
-..__... Jan 2013 #96
Hoyt Jan 2013 #102
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #104
Hoyt Jan 2013 #106

Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 03:45 PM

1. But they were semi-auto barstools

though I'm not sure if they had silencers

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 03:47 PM

2. It's one of your options in this kind of scenario

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Response to NutmegYankee (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:32 PM

5. This was ruined for me by its repeated use of hysterical, screaming women falling

apart and unsure if they want to flee.

All I could think of was all of those women at the Sandy Hook School who protected the children, hiding them, locking them in, fighting back, talking calmly to the kids and performing heroically.

This video does all women a disservice, but particularly the heroes of Sandy Hook...

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:34 PM

6. I didn't make it.

But I was forced to watch it at work.

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Response to NutmegYankee (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:43 PM

7. not blaming you. I blame the makers of the video. Isn't it galling to see this, with

images of those wonderful women who were strong and courageous still in our heads?

Maybe they'll make another video showing women taking the leadership role and leading people to safety. One can hope...

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:45 PM

8. Maybe if it's made somewhere else.

I'm sure the fact that it was made in Texas colored the perspective somewhat.

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Response to NutmegYankee (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 05:07 PM

9. Maybe. but, god, I get tired of seeing this same old shit over and over again.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:54 PM

30. I agree. nt

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 03:48 PM

3. There is no defense against the force of will.

Firearms included.

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Response to Robb (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 05:11 PM

10. This is wisdom.

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Response to Robb (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 06:15 PM

12. wise, you are...

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 06:23 PM

13. "order of Omega", huh?

well, that's interesting.

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Response to Robb (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 06:37 PM

14. I'm pretty sure 135grains @ 1600fps stops a burgler

 

Last edited Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:05 PM - Edit history (1)

no matter how bad they want your teevee. At least 99% of them.
And if that don't work, there's always the venerable .30-06 AP.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 07:56 PM

15. so does a dog. or an alarm. or police locks. or a motion detector. or a .22 long

dig? and dogs are a lot more interesting.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:20 PM

17. Nor are they mutually exclusive!

 

What's wrong with having a dog, alarm system, good door/window locks & lights, a police department AND a gun? There's nothing about any of those that prevents you from having the rest of the others.

Heck, in the long run, a cheap SKS or Semiauto AK is probably cheaper than any of the other options.
I picked up a semi-AK about a 2yrs ago for $350.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:27 PM

18. maybe a different neighborhood would be more relaxing? also, pepper spray, body armor, chainmail?

it sounds a bit dangerous.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:15 PM

82. Ooooh, gun porn!

 

Gun nuts are getting hard!

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Response to JoeBlowToo (Reply #82)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 09:41 PM

97. Just have your people send the keyboard-cleaning bill to my people. nt

 

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #97)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 07:03 AM

108. Sorry but my lust is directed toward "soft targets"

 

Your hardcore blue steel doesn't do it for me.

As they teach you in the army, "this one's for fighting, the other's for fun"

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:18 PM

16. That's missing the point.

This story is about a very cool-headed customer who was more accurate with a barstool than the other guy was with a firearm.

Or as we used to say, it's not the weapon, it's the man. Determined men with box cutters changed the face of the world.

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Response to Robb (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:50 PM

27. Guns Don't Stop Bad Guys, People Stop Bad Guys


Funny how the "Guns don't kill people" mantra ignores the fact that these folks think guns do a whole lot of other stuff on their own.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 08:37 PM

90. And the shotgun was hung by its barrels until pronounced dead!

 

Stupid arses think guns kill people - what a bunch of tossers!

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Response to Squatter (Reply #90)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 08:39 PM

91. You're gone soon. Enjoy it while you've got it nt

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Response to Robb (Reply #16)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 03:52 PM

69. He's damn lucky he hit the guy with a barstool.

That's probably one of the dumbest things I've seen lately. But it SOOOO completely refutes the "need a gun to stop a bad guy" thing OP is talking about.

When my bank branch was robbed, I should've thrown my chair at the guy. Right.

Or not.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #69)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:41 PM

85. Looks like he was lucky twice.

Two launched barstools, two hits.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:45 PM

21. AP? Bad choice for anti-personnel. Use a JHP. N/T

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Response to Robb (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:09 PM

59. Were you a French World War I general in another life?

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/slang.htm


Unlikely as it may seem, the generals of victorious Germany and defeated France arrived at the same conclusions: only total offensive - offensive B l'outrance - could ensure victory. While the Germans planned the von Schlieffen offensive, Revanche became the motive force behind French military planning in the years between the wars. (17)

With all sides (including the British, despite their experience in the Boer War) committed to the theory of the offensive, the sudden concretion of the long-awaited war into defensive entrenchment baffled even the generals. In their obsession with the offensive, and with its psychological component of troop morale, they had failed to recognise that the enormous technological advances in weaponry worked more to the benefit of defence than of offence. The Western Front was shaped by artillery, the machine gun, barbed wire, and the spade...

...Unfortunately for the miserable troops mired in the wet, cold, and filthy trenches, the generals refused to accept the deadly efficacy of the defensive weapons, and spent the first three years of the war mounting one costly frontal assault after another, until the abortive Nivelle offensive of May 1917 precipitated the mutiny of the French army and ended what J.M. Winter calls "the great slaughter." (19)

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Response to Robb (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 02:06 AM

107. Or against people who don't give a damn if they live or not

doing something completely off the wall to throw a bad guy off his stride. Throwing furniture at him qualifies.

Bad guys want people to be predictable, to act like victims.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 03:55 PM

4. i found this when i was posting THIS!!

i think i just created a wormhole!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101651889

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 05:12 PM

11. Glad he didn't pull out a weapon and spray bullets everywhere n/t

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:38 PM

19. What makes you think that a legally armed citizen would spray bullets everywhere?

There have been lots of incidents in the last few years of legally armed citizens shooting criminals, and not a single instance of the CCWer spraying bullets.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #19)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:48 PM

26. it happens every day?

what makes you think somebody would just believe something you type? have any evidence?


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/nra-mass-shootings-myth

"There's just one little problem with this: Not a single one of the 62 mass shootings we studied in our investigation has been stopped this way—even as the nation has been flooded with millions of additional firearms and a barrage of recent laws has made it easier than ever for ordinary citizens to carry them in public places, including bars, parks, and schools.

(Gun rights die-hards claim the Portland mall shooter saw an armed good guy—who ran for cover instead of firing—and promptly shot himself dead. Obviously.)

Attempts by armed citizens to stop shooters are rare. At least two such attempts in recent years ended badly, with the would-be good guys gravely wounded or killed. Meanwhile, the five cases most commonly cited as instances of regular folks stopping massacres fall apart under scrutiny: Either they didn't involve ordinary citizens taking action—those who intervened were actually cops, trained security officers, or military personnel—or the citizens took action after the shooting rampages appeared to have already ended. (Or in some cases, both.)"


skip 2 ¶


For their part, law enforcement officials overwhelmingly hate the idea of armed civilians getting involved. As a senior FBI agent told me, it would make their jobs more difficult if they had to figure out which of the shooters at an active crime scene was the bad guy. And while they train rigorously for responding in confined and chaotic situations, the danger to innocent bystanders from ordinary civilians whipping out firearms is obvious. Exhibit A: the gun-wielding citizen who admitted to coming within a split second of shooting an innocent person as the Tucson massacre unfolded, after initially mistaking that person for the killer, Jared Loughner.


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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #26)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:31 PM

33. Guns are better for defense in the home...mano a mano.

Or womano a mano. If you know someone's breaking in, you have time to get your gun. It's a fact that time and time again, a homeowner with a gun has been able to protect the home and its inhabitants. The intruder has the element of surprise, but if you hear, they've lost a bit of that surprise.

In a public event, it's a total surprise...and most people don't carry guns. Mass killers know this...they choose to kill in places that are unlikely to have people with loaded weapons. Schools, churches.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 11:18 AM

45. Then show me an incident of a CCWer spraying bullets.

If it happens every day, as you claim, then there should be dozens of news reports. Considering the large number of people here that are so strongly anti-gun, then there should be lots of posts showing such incidents, and you should have no problem finding examples. For clarity, I am discussing CCWers who engage a criminal in public and spray bullets everywhere.

I can easily show dozens of incidents in which a CCWer has engaged a criminal in public with no innocents hit. There is a web site that tracks such incidents, lists them with a link to an MSM source. The MSM link is proof that the site isn't lying. Here is the link:http://www.learnaboutguns.com/tag/self-defense-example/

The armed citizen in your post didn't shoot anybody. Almost doesn't count. He restrained himself, as did the recent armed citizen at the mall shooting.

So let's see your list of CCWers spray firing in publc.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #45)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:27 PM

57. tab still open took 30 seconds

The violence began with an argument inside a sports bar that escalated into a fight and culminated in a shootout between the suspect and an armed security guard, police said.

An employee tried to break up the fight, and the suspect fired several rounds toward the subjects he was fighting with, police said.

The two people fatally wounded were the employee, who was in his 20s, and a 35-year-old man, police said. They suffered multiple gunshot wounds and died at the scene, police said

http://wtvr.com/2013/01/01/2-killed-3-wounded-after-shooting-at-fireworks-show-in-ca/

security guard also wounded

that edit was a mis-type, not an insult!

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #57)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:11 PM

60. Fail-No CCW holder in that, but a mall ninja.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #60)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:03 PM

76. nothing mentioned about a mall. what are you reading.

stop butting in.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #76)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 10:26 PM

98. You've not heard the term "Mall ninja" before? I thought you were knowledgable about guns...

"Mall ninja" is a term of derision for armed security guards with an inflated self-image

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mall%20ninja

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Shrine of the Mall Ninja
March 1, 2006

This is a collection of the wisdom posted on the internet by a guy calling himself Gecko45. It all started back at the end of the halcyon summer of 2001, and his posts have created a certain urban legend that many refer to as the Mall Ninja. Hang out at any gun shop, gun show or shooting match and you’ll see one of these guys; you might even see a group of them since they are known to associate in the wild.

The Mall Ninja is easily distinguished by an abundance of “tactical” gear, such as fatigues, a thigh holster (with, of course, a Glock), combat boots, bandolier and other accouterments that you’d usually only see on a SWAT operative. Median age is usually 19-25, and they tend to boast about their various exploits with certain Special Forces units, all of which they’re too young and idiotic to have joined (real Special Forces types don’t brag). They typically have opinions on everything, regardless of expertise, they are uniformly poor shots, and they tend to exhibit a frightening lack of safety training.

The shadowy and shrill figure known as Gecko45 is the holy Dalai Lama of these dolts, but trust me, there are more. Many, many more.

Anyhow, I went looking for the original GlockTalk thread, and I found that it’s no longer archived. For a time, it was mirrored at mallninja.com, but sadly, the site is now down. Luckily, I had a copy of the thread cached (as well as a great one from the HK91 forum), so I figured I’d post it here. I’ve only kept Gecko’s posts (with one hilarious exception), since I don’t have permission from the folks who responded to him, but needless to say, he got grilled. A few folks even played along to get a rise out of him....


I've had the misfortune of knowing a couple of these dolts. One in particular enjoyed telling
some of my co-workers and I about his expertise with firearms, which was doubly amusing
since one of the people he bloviated at was a regular competitor in practical pistol events (winning several)-but he simply chose not to run his mouth about it all the time...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practical_shooting

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #57)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:47 PM

65. I don't see where a CCWer srayed bullets all over the place.

Further, given CA laws, the shooter almost certainly has a criminal or police record.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:08 PM

80. that would be the armed guard. don't you guys read?

no, CA law means a criminal wouldn't have a gun

they are some of the better ones in the nation, but i guess they aren't good enough.

gonna have to tighten them all up a bit.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #80)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:48 PM

87. The link does not say who fired the shots that missed.

CA law does not stop a criminal from having a gun, it merely provides an avenue of punishment if the criminal is caught and charged.

You are accusing the guard of spray firing, without proof.

And I am still waiting for you to show an example of a CCWer engaging a criminal by spray-firing into bystanders.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #87)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 11:46 PM

103. they probably both had permits. they probably both missed. they probably didn't need to be shooting

http://www.wday.com/event/article/id/71819/

there's a guy who executed two teenagers in minnesota. should have had a permit, if he was legal.

look up your own "facts". i'm not really interested in arguing with a brick wall.

maybe you are having trouble finding evidence of a licensed owner engaging a criminal because it never really happens much at all?

maybe the pros know what they're talking about?

For their part, law enforcement officials overwhelmingly hate the idea of armed civilians getting involved. As a senior FBI agent told me, it would make their jobs more difficult if they had to figure out which of the shooters at an active crime scene was the bad guy. And while they train rigorously for responding in confined and chaotic situations, the danger to innocent bystanders from ordinary civilians whipping out firearms is obvious.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/nra-mass-shootings-myth

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #103)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:47 AM

110. The guard had to have a permit, in WA. The other guy would have been illegal.

The MN guy wasn't a CC case. The shootings occured in his home, where he could have had guns without having to have a CC permit. I understand he has been charged with murder.

There are lots of cases of CCWers engaging criminals. I posted a link to a website that tracks them and provides links to the media story of each one. There are hundreds of such news stories on the site. But you ignore all evidence that is contrary to your already made up mind. Here is the link again: http://www.learnaboutguns.com/tag/self-defense-example/

Here are some from the first page:

Store-worker-shoots-suspected-robber-police-say-4152941
12/28/2012
Store worker shoots suspected robber, police say

Since such stores almost never provide guns for employees it is safe to assume that he had a CHL.


Interruption: Wife wants to eat breakfast out. I will return later and list a dozen RECENT stories of CCWers engaging criminals. It will be easy to do. We list those kind of news reports in the gungeon fairly frequently.


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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #45)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 01:13 AM

105. i'm not saying you can't defend yourself, i'm saying you don't need a military rifle to do it

and you have to be responsible enough to handle a gun- don't assume everyone is just because you are...

CHL holder fired shot that killed store clerk

The customer tried to leave but noticed the door was locked.

He pulled out his weapon and got in a gunfight with the robbers. Smith was caught in the crossfire, and ballistics tests show the CHL holder killed her.

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/18661869/chl


nothing wrong with self-defense. the problem is the 40-50% of guns floating around that are illegal, which are getting to criminals through people, UNLIKE YOURSELF, who abuse or ignore the laws and make responsible people like yourself look bad.




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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #105)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:18 AM

109. That's one innocent hit. Still not a spray of bullets.

This is a tough one. The CHLer is definately responsible for any rounds that he fires. He did try to evade, but found that the robbers had locked the door. That is normally considered a very bad sign that they may be intending to murder any witnesses. Normally robbers only want the money and a fast escape and should not be engaged. Just observe and tell the police later. But there are certain things that if the robbers do them, then you are in danger and need to fight, even if the odds are hopelessly against you. For example, NEVER let yourself be moved to a second crime scene, even in the same building. Locking everybody inside the building is one of those danger signs.

No course of action has any guarantees.

The Texas convictions rates that I have posted show that in 2010 we had a conviction rate for murder/manslaughter of 1.14 per 100K, well below the rate for the general population. That shows that as a group, we are much more responsible than average, but not perfect.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #45)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 02:39 PM

113. see #112

and don't bother getting back to me.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:41 PM

20. Yes, he was a hero, no doubt about that. But he was also lucky.

In a barstool vs gun confrontation the odds are strongly, but not completely, on the side of the gun. While I hope it never happens to me, if I ever have to go up against an armed criminal, I want to have a gun.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #20)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:11 PM

23. maybe he was lucky he DIDN'T have a gun, and didn't become a target, and was able to do something

i hope i'm not standing next to you.

A male employee of the bar, who police said tried to break up the fight, was also wounded by gunfire, said police.

The woman suffered a gunshot wound to her lower body and is expected to survive, police said.

The 35-year-old man and the male employee died at the scene.

According to the statement, an armed security guard at the bar confronted the alleged gunman, the two exchanged gunfire and both were injured.

http://www.kcra.com/news/Police-2-dead-3-hurt-during-Old-Sac-bar-shooting/-/11797728/17963494/-/owhnvn/-/index.html

from TODAY.


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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:29 PM

24. The guards gun was in open view, and he was in uniform.

That attracted attention to him, thereby making him a target. I will be in ordinary clothes, with a concealed gun, and thereby won't be a first target. The criminal won't know that I am engaging him until he is getting shot. However, my own lifestyle does not include bars so I won't be in a bar for you to concern yourself about.

There have been numerous incidents in the past few years of CCWer shooting criminals and it is very rare for one of us to make things worse.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:52 PM

28. see #26. the guard confronted the guy and he started shooting. he got in the guys face. not a target

evidence?

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:23 PM

32. i don't only go to bars. unfortunately. but

However, my own lifestyle does not include bars so I won't be in a bar for you to concern yourself about.

i assume you go the the grocery store, bank, mall...

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #32)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 11:31 AM

46. Went to bank today. Didn't shoot anybody.

Texas keeps and annually publishes state statistics on CHL (Concealed Hangun License) holders who commit crimes. The percentage is much lower than our share of the general population. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm

Legal concealed carry saves more innocent lives than it takes.

In Texas the detailed statistics are compiled annually by the Department of Public Safety and published on the internet. It is likely that the Texas experience with Concealed Handgun Licenses would be about the same in other states. The last year for which statistics are published is 2011 for convictions. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/index.htm

In 2011 there were 512,625 people who had CHLs. Out of those people there were exactly three (3) murder convictions and three (3) manslaughter convictions. Out of the general population there were 578 convictions for murder in its various forms.

So very, very few CHL holders go bad, but some do.

The DPS also publishes an annual Crime in Texas Report. http://www.dps.texas.gov/crimereports/10/citCh3.pdf
From that report, page 15:

Statistics on murder circumstances, victims, and
victim/offender relationships on the next page
include justifiable homicides. Justifiable homicide
is the killing of a felon by a peace officer in the
line of duty or the killing (during the commission
of a felony) of a felon by a private citizen. In
2010, there were 98 justifiable homicides, of
which, 50 were felons killed by private citizens,
and 48 were felons killed by police.


In Texas all homicides, even those that are clearly self-defense, have to go before a grand jury which will rule if the killing was justified or not. So those 50 justified private citizen homicides were ones in which the defender genuinely and legitimately feared for his life. Since most shootings are merely woundings there would be a much larger number of justified woundings in which the defender genuinely feared for his life, but that number is not kept. Obviously there are dozens of cases each year in which a CHL holder uses their gun to save themselves.

Dozens of innocent lives saved versus four innocents killed shows the concealed carry is working in Texas. As already stated, there is no reason to believe that other CCW states have a different experience.

Legal concealed carry saves innocent lives.

Here is a chart showing the conviction ratio for various years. You may verify the chart by looking at the Texas state statistics at the state link I have given you.


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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #46)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:22 PM

55. i stopped at the word texas. i'm sure they are very neutral and unbaised on the subject of guns, but

It is likely that the Texas experience with Concealed Handgun Licenses would be about the same in other states.



see post #51

guy robs bank. with screwdriver. good guy pulls gun on bad guy. cop runs in, shoots good guy.

guy throws screwdriver at good guy, innocent person gets shot.

just give up.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #55)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:13 PM

62. Your anecdotes are more reliable than published statistics? It really *is* a religious...

...belief amongst you lot, isn't it?

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #55)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:50 PM

66. IOW, don't bother you with facts, your mind is made up. N/T

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #66)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:00 PM

75. one "fact" from one state just doesn't mean a thing...


http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/index.html

1-3 Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense

4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments and are both socially undesirable and illegal

5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense.

6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime.
We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.

7. Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense.

8. Criminals who are shot are typically the victims of crime

9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law abiding citizens

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #75)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:39 PM

84. Texas posts a collection of a year's results of 525,000 CHLers.

Data from 525K CHLers is much more than a mere one fact. You just don't like what the data shows. CHLers are much safer to be around than the general population.

1-3 Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense
Unprovable, one way or another.

4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments and are both socially undesirable and illegal
Law-abiding people don't reach for guns in heated arguments. Criminals likely do. Separate out the criminals for the law-abiding.

5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense.
Criminals do use them to intimidate. Law-abiding don't.

6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime.
We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.

Living with a violent criminal is dangerous. Law-abiding folks don't act like criminals.

7. Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense.
Probably true. Adolescents aren't allowed to legally CC, and are supposed to be supervised if they have a gun.

8. Criminals who are shot are typically the victims of crime
True. Most murder victims are also criminals.

9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law abiding citizens
True. Most DGUs do not involve any shots being fired. The criminal runs away and the law-abiding citizen allows him to flee.

The Harvard study is by epidemiologists. Guns aren't germs, they are tools used by people to further those individual's ends. Much better research has been done by criminologists.

If the law-abiding person does not have to use their gun for self-protection, and most won't, then no harm is done. Law-abiding people aren't the problem. It is criminals with guns that are the problem. But for some folks, the gun is a lifesaver. Consider that there are about 10 million CCWers in the nation. According to the FBI, in 2011 there were a bit over 1M violent crimes reported, and about 9M property crimes. That is about 10M crimes. In a nation of 310M some of those 10M crimes will happen to some of those 10M CCWers, which will frequently result in a DGU.

The Harvard study is flawed in that it does not attempt to separate out criminals misuse of a gun from legal use. I am a law-abiding person who background has been checked by the FBI, fingerprinted, and photographed. To attempt to apply data from criminals misuse of guns to me is absurd. The behaviors of criminals, and of people like me, is vastly different and will have different outcomes.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #84)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 08:39 PM

92. i'd go with harvard over you, myself, thanks. texas data? right. interpreted by you? ha!

It is criminals with guns that are the problem.

and the criminals who sell them guns legally because the laws suck.

you look kind of silly trying to refute whole studies by typing a sentence, don't you?

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #92)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 11:04 PM

99. The State of Florida has *also* refuted what you have claimed:

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/news/reports.html

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/Number_of_Licensees_By_Type.pdf

Total Number of Licensees 1,185,300


http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/07012012_06302013_cw_annual.pdf

License Suspended- Disqualifying arrest

1478

License Revoked

353

License Suspended-DVI

561

So out of the 1.1 million plus CCW holders, about 0.15% of them got their permits pulled-and
some will no doubt get them back if found 'not guilty' of a felony or domestic violence offense.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #55)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:55 PM

67. Why are you mo ing the goalposts?

Your OP was about a private citizen in a cafe and saying that since he was successful in driving off a shooting suspect withlut a gun so that the perp was able to run off and later carjack and kill an innocent woman and not about police shootings. Give it up already. The point you wete attempting to make just is not logical. You are attempting to use an absolute for all situations. Life does not work that way. If you come back by saying guns are not always successful in this situation, well I don't see anyone making that claim.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #67)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 06:53 PM

74. we resolved that in #49

how soon you forget...

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #74)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 08:29 PM

89. B.S. You have not been able to make any point.

You should have taken your own advice and not made any comments (but in order to do that you would have had to skip writing the OP since even though you wrote no comment, you had already written your unsubstantiated hyperbole before the no comment).

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #89)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 08:44 PM

93. you are totally confused- the hyperbole is not mine- i'm 110% right that the NRA is full o'crap

"the only way to stop a bad guy" is the BS

there are many, better ways, and you are wrong to defend this misguided propanganda to the general public

please desist, this is worse than arguing with my wife.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #55)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 11:09 PM

100. Then go on to Florida- you won't like those numbers, either:

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/news/reports.html

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/Number_of_Licensees_By_Type.pdf

Total Number of Licensees 1,185,300


http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/07012012_06302013_cw_annual.pdf

License Suspended- Disqualifying arrest

1478

License Revoked

353

License Suspended-DVI

561

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #100)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 11:15 PM

101. stop posting jumbled up batches of number that don't mean anything

http://www.wday.com/event/article/id/71819/

there's a guy who shot two teenagers and said it was self defense.

that type of thing happens a lot more than your lone warrior fantasy.

20.6 people shot a day. as in, today and tomorrow.

how many of those were "good" shootings?

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #101)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 01:38 PM

111. Yeah, yeah, anecdotes are better than verifiable statistics to you.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #46)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 02:38 PM

112. lucky you. gotta be ready.

not 2.5 million in self defense.

many more people injured than criminals stopped by citizens.

have fun.


* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if they "had not used a gun for protection." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 162,000 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

Results: During 1993--1998, an estimated average of 115,000 firearm-related injuries (including 35,200 fatal and 79,400 nonfatal injuries) occurred annually in the United States. Males were seven times more likely to die or be treated in a hospital ED for a gunshot wound than females. The proportion of firearm-related injuries that resulted in death increased from younger to older age groups. Approximately 68% of firearm-related injuries for teenagers and young adults aged 15--24 years were from interpersonal violence, and 78% of firearm-related injuries among older persons aged >65 years were from intentionally self-inflicted gunshot wounds. Black males aged 20--24 years had the highest average annual fatal (166.7/100,000 population) and nonfatal (689.4/100,000 population) firearm-related injury rates during the 6-year period. Although 51.4% of intentionally self-inflicted nonfatal wounds were to the head or neck, 71.8% of unintentional and 45.8% of assault-related nonfatal wounds were to the extremities. During the 6-year period, estimates are that quarterly fatal firearm-related injury rates declined 29.3%, and quarterly nonfatal firearm-related injury rates declined 46.9%. Firearm-related injury rates declined for intentionally self-inflicted, assault, and unintentional causes.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5002a1.htm

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #112)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 05:55 PM

114. You falsely assume all of those shooting were by legal gun owners.

Further, you use data from when crime was at a peak, almost twenty years ago.

There have been numerous studies that have produced widely divergent numbers on DGUs per year. For example a 1994 Dept. of Justice survey found about 1.5 million DGUs annually. That was a Clinton era DOJ study so please don't accuse them of a pro-gun bias.

I do not deny that a gun in the hand of a criminal is a problem. I do claim that guns in the hands of the law-abiding do more good than harm.

Out of 525K CHL holders in Texas, only 6 were convicted of murder/manslaughter in 2011. That is a very low percentage.

I promised to post a dozen links to recent CCW DGUs. Here they are:

12/28/2012
http://www.local10.com/news/Robber-fatally-shot-outside-Miami-Gardens-shopping-center/-/1717324/17937826/-/hop3uw/-/index.html
According to police, a man was approached by an armed man who demanded his gold-chain. The armed man then shot the victim in the leg.

The victim returned fire and killed the attempted robber.



12/24/2012
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/atlanta-police-robbery-suspect-shot-and-killed-by-/nTfk2/

“The investigation revealed that the deceased male and another male attempted to rob a subject,” Jones said. “The intended victim pulled his own weapon to defend himself and shot one of the would-be robbers.”


12/29/2012
http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/story/20465522/man-killed-in-shooting-during-robbery-in-augusta
Richmond County Deputy Coroner Kenneth Boose told the Augusta Chronicle that 18-year-old Trezmaine Jessie Williams was killed in the shooting at about 6:30 p.m. Friday. Richmond County Sheriff's Lt. Blaise Dresser said another man, 18-year-old Dontavius Payne was also shot in the incident in the 2000 block of First Avenue. Payne was in critical condition at the Medical College of Georgia Hospital.

Investigators said Williams and Payne were apparently attempting to rob another man when they were shot. Dresser said the shooting appeared to be in self-defense.


12/25/2012
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2012/12/25/police-aa-county-business-owner-fatally-shoots-intruder/
GLEN BURNIE, Md. (AP/WJZ) — Anne Arundel County police say a store employee fatally shot someone trying to break into his shop in Glen Burnie.


12/17/2012
http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/20360030/police-mauldin-armed-robber-shot-by-victim
MAULDIN, SC (FOX Carolina) -
Mauldin police said a man was robbed at gunpoint in a parking lot, but fired back, hitting the robber.


12/11/2012

http://chronicle.northcoastnow.com/2012/12/11/clerks-who-shot-and-killed-armed-robber-wont-be-charged-prosecutor-says/
CINCINNATI — Two gas station workers were protecting themselves when they pulled guns and fatally shot a robber, an Ohio prosecutor said today.


12/02/2012
http://wkzo.com/news/articles/2012/dec/04/attempted-battle-creek-robber-shot-in-head/
BATTLE CREEK (WKZO) -- A clerk at a Battle Creek convenience store wasn't about to be robbed. The 28-year-old man running the register at Liberty Mart Convenience store shot the attempted thief in the head when the suspect pulled a knife and demanded money.


11/30/2012
http://www.rrstar.com/news/x1156349919/Robber-shot-dead-by-employee-at-Rockford-jewelry-store
ROCKFORD -- A man was shot dead about 5 p.m. today during an attempted robbery at Jewelry Concepts in the North Towne Mall.

Lt. Marc Walsh of the Rockford Police said a suspect armed with a gun entered the store and was confronted by an employee, who shot and killed him. There were other employees in the store, he said..

"Nobody else was injured," Walsh said.


11/27/2012

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Would-be-Robber-Shot-At-Hialeah-Fruit-Stand-181065551.html
Hialeah police said a man approached a fruit vendor, took out a gun and asked for money. That's when a third person at the scene took out his own gun and shot the suspect.


11/22/2012
http://www.ksn.com/mostpopular/story/Police-Teen-shot-and-killed-during-gas-station/HcT6Acwbek6jzpbmY5F1Hg.cspx
Wichita Police responded to the call shortly after 7:00 p.m on Thanksgiving. They say two male supspects walked into KC's Gas and Groceries and tried to rob the store. A third man was outside of the building.

"The clerk then fired several rounds and shot one male," said Sgt. Ron Hunt, Wichita Police Department.

The 16-year-old was pronounced dead less than an hour later.


11/21/2012

http://www.kvue.com/news/state/180346641.html
An investigation revealed the alleged robbers approached two men in a parking lot at gunpoint and demanded their wallets and other valuables.

“The suspects found out they were at the wrong car and became a little agitated, pulled a pistol out and raised the pistol up,” said HPD Sgt. James Devereaux. “One of the complainants or victims had a Concealed Handgun License. He was able to obtain his pistol and defend himself and his friend.”

A witness said the third suspect managed to get away but not before he was hit by a passing car.

I guess you could say that was bad karma.

11/12/2012

http://www2.wspa.com/news/2012/nov/12/13/deputies-scene-greenville-co-shooting-ar-4954058/
Investigators tell 7 On Your Side that the victim, who has a Concealed Weapons Permit, fought back when one of the suspects pointed a gun at him. The victim pulled his gun and fired two shots, hitting one of the men in the chest. The other suspect got away.


I didn't select cases of homeowners defending against intruders. They are more numerous, but I wanted to show cases of people defending themselves against violent crime while away from their homes.


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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:53 PM

22. We need to put

guards with bar stools in every school in America. The NBSA (National Bar Stool Association) will help fund and train the guards for any school that wants them.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:46 PM

25. I would be willing to bet that 90% of those owners of semi automatic weapons

who claim their 2nd amendment right to bear arms, and call for a civil war if Obama tries to come for their guns, chose not to serve their country in the military when they had the chance. They like to talk tough and loud, but when they had a chance to suit up under Bush 41 and Bush 43's wars, they opted out.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:53 PM

29. he did a hell of a job with the tools available to him.

would he have done better with a PT145? Maybe maybe not.

It's a chance he took and it proved out good this time. Of course the stools could have been bolted to the floor, and salt and pepper shakers would have been his next line of defense.

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Response to ileus (Reply #29)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:37 PM

35. I think that's it. He used the best that was available to him. It doesn't mean that something else..

a gun or a crowbar...wouldn't have also worked.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:20 PM

31. What this terrible shooting proved

is that Lawrence Adams was able to chase off the shooter by throwing stools at him.

However, if he had a CCW permit and was carrying that day, it is also possible that he could have disabled the shooter and in doing so saved the life of the woman whom the shooter later shot and killed as he stole her vehicle.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #31)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:31 PM

34. typing a few sentences doesn't prove anything unless you were there when it happened

sure, its possible, or he could have got shot when he drew his gun and more people would have died.

anything's POSSIBLE.

see #26

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #34)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:27 PM

36. If you are correct, then your logic alao

applies to your original post. Anything can happen and the next time throwibg stools will cause the shooter to create MORE havoc. Admit it, when you wrote your OP you did so without considering the woman KILLED after the perp left the cafe.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #36)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:41 PM

37. i am correct and that makes no sense. OP was 'no comment'. why are you trying to belittle the guy?

MAYBE the guy who has no right to have a gun could NOT HAVE one. there could be more expansive laws against guns, better enforced.

THAT would be ideal.

what kind of attitude is that, as if a crazed maniac shooting up coffee shops is inevitable for some OTHER reason than he had SIX guns?

see post #26

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #37)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:56 PM

39. Why are you dealing

in a world of MAYBES when you wrote EMPHATICALLY that a gun is not needed to stop a bad guy. That's the problem with absolutes, they rarely ever are.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #39)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:07 AM

40. "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," LaPierre said. .....



why are you?

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #40)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:21 AM

44. LaPierre does not speak for me.

I have never been a member of the NRA.

These are your posts:

"18. maybe a different neighborhood would be more relaxing? also, pepper spray, body armor, chainmail

23. maybe he was lucky he DIDN'T have a gun, and didn't become a target, and was able to do something

37. MAYBE the guy who has no right to have a gun could NOT HAVE one. there could be more expansive laws against guns, better enforced."

Your OP was about EMPHATIC absolutes and then you switched to several MAYBES. i happen to think nothing is predictable in a shooting situation. The only reason I even started this exchange is because the point you attempted to make in your OP is unsupportable.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #44)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:32 PM

49. i am glad to hear that!

i hear you!

my point in the OP is that the nra's 'talking point' is unsupportable, so we are agreeing, i guess?

i'm saying that the "statement"

'the only thing that stops the bad guy is a good guy with a gun'/'you need a gun to stop a bad guy'

should actually be "there are 1000 ways to stop a bad guy, and a gun is the easiest AND most dangerous way of all"

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #49)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:02 PM

50. Clarity on these threads is always helpful.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #39)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:11 AM

41. MAYBE...

a cop runs in, doesn't know the good guy from the bad guy, and gets shot or shoots the good guy.

just maybe.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #41)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:18 AM

42. MAYBE the good guy oversleeps that day

and never makes it to the cafe. MAYBE the bad guy steps out in traffic and gets hit by a bus. Or MAYBE the good gjy has a gun, shoots the perp anf the perp then does not later shoot another innocent person. By the way, I am not belittling tbe guy who threw the stools. I am atgempting to tell you that your OP does not EMPHATICALLY apply in all situations.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #41)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:06 PM

47. Please show where that has happened. N/T

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #47)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:06 PM

51. ok! took less than 5 minutes. are you lazy?

Nov. 9, 2012

DENVER — A police officer was shot and killed Friday by another officer after several agencies responded to a report of shots fired at a home in the Denver suburb of Lakewood, authorities said.

James Davies, 35, was in full uniform when he was killed, police spokesman Steve Davis said.

Davies was in the backyard of a home when an officer behind a fence in another yard saw Davies, mistook him for an armed suspect and issued unspecified commands to the person, Davis said.

Davies was shot after he failed to respond, he said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/09/james-davis-lakewood-poli_n_2104431.html

***

also found this, kinda f'd up...

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/police-364905-dunn-anaheim.html

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #51)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:12 PM

61. But only cops can save us..

As many have pointed out LEO are most often woefully under trained on firearms proficiency, to the point of being negligent and a danger... thanks for reminding us.
I am solely responsible for my safety and of those I love. I chose not to defer this to the state OR other citizens acting in their stead. How is this so hard for you and your fellows to understand?

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Response to SQUEE (Reply #61)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 06:43 PM

72. i'm more comfortable with cops than vigilantes, thanks. why trust any joe off the street?

and if your so worried about being in public, a small pistol is plenty


http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/index.html

1-3 Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense

4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments and are both socially undesirable and illegal

5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense.

6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime.
We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.

7. Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense.

8. Criminals who are shot are typically the victims of crime

9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law abiding citizens

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #72)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:48 PM

86. Far from a vigilante, or just any Joe off the street.

Quite a bit of training at the Benning School for Wayward Boys, as well as weekly trips to different ranges, (one of which is literally in my back yard) and numerous classes/ schools each year. I actually spend time shooting with the local ERT, I can speak from experience, I am quite sure I am more competent than the vast majority of LEO's in America, as are many, many of the "average Joes" you think are just itching to get their Wyatt Earp on.
I have concealed carry for my state but do not carry due to inability to enjoy being out of the house due the necessity of situational awareness. It comes in handy when transporting to the range or local gun plumber.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #72)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:57 PM

88. Not vigilantes. Please use language correctly.

Or perhaps you just wish to throw insults. A person who interrupts a crime in progress is not the definition of a vigilante.

The requirements for a CCW vary from state to state. Four states allow anyone to carry, and I am not comfortable with that. Most states require training and a live fire range test.

FWIW, I qualified as expert with the M1911A1 .45 pistol when I was on active duty in the Navy. When I have to fire for qualification on the state test, I have always scored 250 out of a possible 250. (It isn't that difficult.)

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #88)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 08:49 PM

94. a guy going around with a gun looking for trouble sounds pretty lame to me, thanks.

especially in a crowded public place.

there are probably 100 times as many hurt by accident and 1000 more who kill themselves than get "saved" by heros.

and no, i don't want any statistics. yours don't work for me.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #94)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 09:08 PM

95. Not looking for trouble. Just ready if it comes to me.

Violent crime is a reality. Old folks (I am a senior citizen) do get mugged. I will not be an easy victim.

Too bad that you have a closed mind. You should take a look at the results of over half a million CHLers.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #51)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:41 PM

64. That was cop on cop. I asked for a CCWer. N/T

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #64)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 04:56 PM

70. Factual accuracy is strictly optional for gun control advocates...

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #64)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 06:51 PM

73. that was EXACTLY what you asked for.

go take a nap


http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/index.html

1-3 Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense

4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments and are both socially undesirable and illegal

5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense.

6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime.
We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.

7. Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense.

8. Criminals who are shot are typically the victims of crime

9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law abiding citizens

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:48 PM

38. Attempts by armed citizens to stop shooters are rare. At least two such attempts in recent years

ended badly, with the would-be good guys gravely wounded or killed. Meanwhile, the five cases most commonly cited as instances of regular folks stopping massacres fall apart under scrutiny: Either they didn't involve ordinary citizens taking action—those who intervened were actually cops, trained security officers, or military personnel—or the citizens took action after the shooting rampages appeared to have already ended. (Or in some cases, both.)"

skip 2 ¶


For their part, law enforcement officials overwhelmingly hate the idea of armed civilians getting involved. As a senior FBI agent told me, it would make their jobs more difficult if they had to figure out which of the shooters at an active crime scene was the bad guy. And while they train rigorously for responding in confined and chaotic situations, the danger to innocent bystanders from ordinary civilians whipping out firearms is obvious. Exhibit A: the gun-wielding citizen who admitted to coming within a split second of shooting an innocent person as the Tucson massacre unfolded, after initially mistaking that person for the killer, Jared Loughner.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/nra-mass-shootings-myth

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #38)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:09 PM

48. Show what is wrong with these.

Rampage Shootings Stopped:

Pearl MS school shooting stopped by armed citizen 1997:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

Appalachian School of Law shooting, 2002
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

Golden Food Market Shooting 2009
http://blasphemes.blogspot.com/2009/07/golden-food-market-shootout-update.html

New Life Church Shooting 2007
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/1638879

Winnemuccca, NV bar shooting, 2008
http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/19251374.html
Trolley Square Mall

4/24/1998 - Andrew Wurst attended a middle school dance in Edinboro, Pennsylvania intent on killing a bully but shot wildly into the crowd. He killed 1 student. James Strand lived next door. When he heard the shots he ran over with his 12 gauge shotgun and apprehended the gunman without firing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Middle_School_dance_shooting


LAC stops bar shooting in Plymouth, PA
http://citizensvoice.com/news/police-plymouth-shooter-wasn-t-provoked-1.1371854

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #48)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:14 PM

53. ok. i have done so. stop wasting my time, please

1st link-

Myrick, a U.S. Army Reserve commander,

(not just any yahoo who wants a gun)

2nd link-
There are two versions of the events that transpired at that moment, one by Tracy Bridges and one by Ted Besen.

According to Bridges: at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to retrieve their personally-owned firearms placed in their glove compartments. Mikael Gross, a police officer from Grifton, North Carolina retrieved a 9 mm pistol and body armor. Bridges, a county sheriff's deputy from Asheville, North Carolina retrieved his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevrolet Tahoe. Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun. Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm and was subdued by several other unarmed students, including Ted Besen and Todd Ross.

According to Besen: Before Odighizuwa saw Bridges and Gross with their weapons, Odighizuwa set down his gun and raised his arms like he was mocking people. Besen, a former Marine and police officer in Wilmington, North Carolina, engaged in a physical confrontation with Odighizuwa, and knocked him to the ground. Bridges and Gross then arrived with their guns once Odighizuwa was tackled. Additional witnesses at the scene stated they did not see Bridges or Gross with their guns at the time Besen started subduing Odighizuwa. Once Odighizuwa was securely held down, Gross went back to his vehicle and retrieved handcuffs to detain Odighizuwa until police could arrive.

3rd link-
The gun owner used a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2 inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's owner.

(not a rambo-style gun)


i have better things to do. you are wasting my time. that also took less than 5 minutes. i read quickly.



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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #53)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:25 PM

56. That's the NRA-bots' M.O.

 

Waste Liberal's time rebutting them ... after being rebutted on the same point in another thread. Repeat the lie until it becomes "true", just like that German guy noted in 1945.

Repeat XXXXXXX times and you end up with the situation currently on DU (and probably other Liberal chatboards that the NRA has assigned staff to)

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Response to bongbong (Reply #56)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:57 PM

58. at least i showed him!

and it really wasn't too hard...

that smilie is PERFECT!!! hee hee...

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #58)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:39 PM

63. They were still civilians...

...and you only addressed 3 out of 7 links. I don't understand the rambo-style gun reference either.

Are you saying that properly trained civilians should be able to defend themselves with rambo-style guns?

Or that old-looking revolvers are safer than barstools?

Your message seems unclear.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #53)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:58 PM

68. Responses.

1st. Just because he was in the Army reserves doesn't mean that he was highly trained with guns. What was his job in the reserves. I am a veteran of nine years active duty. I can assure you that the average soldier rarely fires a gun after basic training.

2nd. They were still civilians with guns.

3rd. What does the type of gun have to do with anything? He was still a civilian with a gun.

In each case a civilian with a gun stopped a rampage shooting. It has happened, although rarely. Civilians engaging criminals is much more common.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #68)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 06:35 PM

71. if that's what you want to call them, go ahead...

you asked-
What does the type of gun have to do with anything?


nothing at all. a NORMAL gun is just as good as a fancy one. you don't get to pick whichever one you want, it isn't fair to other people.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/index.html

1-3 Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense

4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments and are both socially undesirable and illegal

5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense.

6. Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime.
We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.


7. Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense.

8. Criminals who are shot are typically the victims of crime

9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law abiding citizens

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 12:20 AM

43. I'm opposed to open carry




And before you know it, everyone will be toting high capicaty chair clips.



It'll be chaos. Musical chairs will never be the same again.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:11 PM

52. Stools don't save people. People save people.

You can have my stool when you take it from my cold, dead hands.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #52)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:16 PM

54. ewwww! that's just gross!

You can have my stool when you take it from my cold, dead hands.

at least you didn't say WARM stool!



(as in poop)

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:03 PM

77. You don't need a gun if you have a Donk

&feature=share&list=FLfzHgcx2LMBw8BdSpKelr1A

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:04 PM

78. Throwing stool at people is kind of simian

 

But seriously, should people all be carrying stools around in public?

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:07 PM

79. "Records reveal that he legally acquired at least six weapons in the years before his death."

" Stawicki later killed himself as police closed in."

So the good guys use stools and the bad guys use legally acquired guns. And once again the gunner kills himself.


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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:12 PM

81. Personally, I recommend throwing cats.

They scream, spit and claw as they fly through the air, and often if you make contact with the upper head or body pf the perp they will dig in and cause a real pause in fire.

Of course you have to get good at it, so I recommend picking up a few canine strays from the ASPCA (for practice targets) and always answering all those "free kittens to good home" ads. The best part of it is that your spent ammo feeds the canine targets nicely.

And always be sure to carry a few of your kittens in one of those large handbags - securely fastened, of course - when you are going about your daily rounds. Be prepared.

Of course, you also need someone to actually run up and grab the guy, so try to make friends with a really fit boxer or someone like that, and always go out with that person.

Or you could try throwing knives - but I hear those are already illegal in the UK, so I assume they will shortly be illegal here as well.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:18 PM

83. anyone who adheres to the wisdom of a bumper-sticker...

"A bad guy with a gun can only be stopped by a good guy with a gun' is the latest bit of puerile philosophies to come out recently. And anyone who adheres to the absolutist wisdom of a bumper-sticker to do or not do a thing is either a rather dogmatic individual, or simply a wee bit dull in the head.

And for those people, anything more than a pat on the head and a "bless your little heart..." is a waste of time and effort.

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 09:12 PM

96. Snork!

 

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Response to farminator3000 (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 11:20 PM

102. Frail elderly ladies have saved the day too. Don't need armed cowboys jumping in.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #102)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 11:57 PM

104. and NOT SO frail..check this out!

http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1206366

Grandma Whops Burglar With BBQ Fork

'in his defense it was a really big fork'

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #104)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 01:13 AM

106. God bless that fine lady. Applause indeed.

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