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Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:41 PM

What am I supposed to be outraged about?

Someone help me out. All I see is how awful and terrible this deal is here on DU and on certain liberal sites. I don't see that. Do I think this deal is ideal? No. Not at all. But really, how is this at all bad? We're getting roughly $750 billion in new revenue entirely from taxes on the top, no cuts at all in entitlements, and an extension of unemployment insurance. It's really a very basic, bare bones deal. I don't get what I'm supposed to be so upset about. It's not a perfect deal, I wouldn't even say it's that good, but it's certainly not bad and if you would've told me a couple weeks ago that this would've been the deal, I gladly would have taken it.

62 replies, 5224 views

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Arrow 62 replies Author Time Post
Reply What am I supposed to be outraged about? (Original post)
boxman15 Dec 2012 OP
phleshdef Dec 2012 #1
kardonb Dec 2012 #53
graham4anything Dec 2012 #2
Comrade_McKenzie Dec 2012 #3
iamthebandfanman Dec 2012 #52
tabasco Dec 2012 #4
iamthebandfanman Dec 2012 #48
tabasco Dec 2012 #57
Harmony Blue Dec 2012 #5
Lex Dec 2012 #6
MineralMan Dec 2012 #7
Igel Dec 2012 #18
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #8
oldhippydude Dec 2012 #9
Harmony Blue Dec 2012 #10
Lex Dec 2012 #16
Harmony Blue Dec 2012 #26
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #11
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #17
TDale313 Dec 2012 #12
backscatter712 Dec 2012 #13
ms liberty Dec 2012 #14
JoePhilly Dec 2012 #21
Sophiegirl Dec 2012 #42
JoePhilly Dec 2012 #47
ms liberty Dec 2012 #58
Enrique Dec 2012 #15
jeff47 Dec 2012 #22
Enrique Dec 2012 #23
jeff47 Dec 2012 #30
RC Dec 2012 #45
zipplewrath Dec 2012 #55
Harmony Blue Dec 2012 #29
Moral Compass Dec 2012 #19
Mass Dec 2012 #20
Enrique Dec 2012 #25
Mass Dec 2012 #37
MannyGoldstein Dec 2012 #32
RC Dec 2012 #46
iamthebandfanman Dec 2012 #51
Deb Dec 2012 #24
pasto76 Dec 2012 #27
Bluenorthwest Jan 2013 #62
grahamhgreen Dec 2012 #28
Taverner Dec 2012 #31
Cleita Dec 2012 #34
Blanks Dec 2012 #56
ErikJ Dec 2012 #33
Cleita Dec 2012 #35
sulphurdunn Dec 2012 #36
truedelphi Dec 2012 #40
airplaneman Dec 2012 #43
Skittles Jan 2013 #59
world wide wally Dec 2012 #38
truedelphi Dec 2012 #39
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #41
sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #44
iamthebandfanman Dec 2012 #49
think_critically Dec 2012 #50
shireen Dec 2012 #54
aaaaaa5a Jan 2013 #60
Demo_Chris Jan 2013 #61

Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:42 PM

1. Of all the compromises that could be made to get the GOP to budge, this is fairly inoffensive.

But people love to wet their pants with anything they can find to fill up their collective bitching bladder.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 04:29 PM

53. deal

You can't please all of the people all the time , and then : you can't please some people , no matter how hard you try . And some people just like to complain , regardless .

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:43 PM

2. Because the whiners need to whine, otherwise they would no longer qualify as whiners

 

they have forgotten their logic and common sense and are like a raging mob where mob mentality has taken over their senses.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:43 PM

3. It is all this whining that has started driving me toward the center...

 

It is unbearable.

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Response to Comrade_McKenzie (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 04:23 PM

52. lmao

i remember a time on DU when your name alone would have singled you out as a fake liberal

'comrade'


thats the thing about the internet..
nobody will ever know where you really lie in your political beliefs..
your word against someone elses


i could call myself prettypinkelephantnumber3 but it wouldnt make me one :p

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:45 PM

4. It's not utopia, man!!!

Where's my free LSD?????

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Response to tabasco (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 04:06 PM

48. I know this gets said alot, but that REALLY

sounds like something a right winger would say :p

infact, i think ive had something to that effect said to me on several occasions...

im a liberal so im a dirty drug loving hippy with dreams of some mythical utopia full of peace and love..

yup, heard that before.

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Response to iamthebandfanman (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 07:21 PM

57. I am a damned dirty hippy with dreams of utopia

I just happen to understand how things work.

Obama is moving us in the right direction and that is quite an accomplishment with the proto-fascist U.S. republican party still with so much power.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:45 PM

5. I have to agree based on what we know

some people expect too much IMO.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:48 PM

6. Given that the Republicans can barely deal with their own teabaggers

I figured the deal would not be great.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:49 PM

7. What? Outraged? Of course you should be outraged.

Someone will be along shortly to tell you why. I have no idea, so we'll have to wait for someone to tell us what to be outraged about. I have absolute confidence that such a person will inform us soon, so we can begin our outrage.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:12 PM

18. Ah, I see the problem.

No, you have to start your outrage now.

The outrage evaluators will monitor you and assign you a reason based upon the observed extent and quality of the outrage you show.

Can't have important things assigned to paltry outrages or petty things assigned to huge, towering outrages.

First begin, and at some point "why" will become known.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:50 PM

8. They'll let us know. I am in the process of getting rid of old outrages

to make room for this new one.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:57 PM

9. actually there is something as important that people are missing..

that is the death (albeit slowly) of the tax argument that the right wingers have used for the last 30 years.... Grover is well on his way to being Grover who? that's a big fuggen deal

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Response to oldhippydude (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:58 PM

10. Most people are spinning this as a victory for the Republicans

but seem to miss this point. That Grover's no tax alliance has burst into flames.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:07 PM

16. Spinning as an R victory on TV, or here at DU?

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Response to Lex (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:39 PM

26. It sure seems like it

but I will let others voice their opinions. I shouldn't paint with broad brush strokes but the sentiment is there. Understandably given what is at stake, but still some need to be realistic.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:59 PM

11. A 15% cut in the inheritance tax rate and a $4M increase in the starting point,

 

a 25% increase in the capital gains tax rate, as opposed to a 34% increase, topped off with no cuts to spending. This is significant giveaway to the 1% for no progress at in any of the areas that must be addressed if we're to slow the downward spiral of Main Street.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:12 PM

17. We should not do this. It is stopgap, and the Republicans will demand cuts to Social Security

when it comes time to raise the debt limit.

This deal should be allowed to fall through.

We need a comprehensive deal that includes raising the debt ceiling.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:00 PM

12. I've been fairly hard on the president...

Did not want SS on the table. What we're hearing about this deal actually sounds pretty good to me. Tax rates going up on the wealthy, including Estate Tax rates. Unemployment extension. I don't see a need for outrage if this is where we end up.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:02 PM

13. I've already reminded people that the GOP backed off on chained CPI...

in the midst of sackcloths and ashes over moving from tax increases on incomes >$250k to incomes >$450k.

At this point, that's mere haggling.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:04 PM

14. Here at HairOnFireUnderground?

Well, everything, of course!
I did not come up with HairOnFireUnderground, but I can' t credit the DU'er because I can' t remember who it was...but it is too appropriate to not use, LOL!

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Response to ms liberty (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:24 PM

21. I'll help ...

It was me ... its open source, no TM, no copyright, no fees!!!


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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:39 PM

42. Therefore.....

Non-taxable?

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Response to Sophiegirl (Reply #42)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 04:03 PM

47. Crap, could have solved my own personal

Fiscal cliff!!!

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 08:00 PM

58. Thank you - its so delightfully descriptive!

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:05 PM

15. you don't have to be outraged about it

i would ask people to think about why they like the deal.

You can like every centrist policy we see, you can even like conservative policies if you want. Just think about why, is it because you like it or because you like Obama and want to defend everything he does. The latter reason is a bad reason imo.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:28 PM

22. Unemployment extension, no tax hike on <$250k/year and pushing off the sequester

Would prefer more, such as $250k instead of $400k for the tax increases, but negotiation means not getting everything.

What, exactly, is not to like about those three items?

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:33 PM

23. for me, as someone who thought 250K was way too high,

raising it even higer to 450K pisses me off. Plus I've heard that these cuts will be permanent, which makes it even worse.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:51 PM

30. So you want to raise taxes on everyone in order to raise taxes on whatever you define as "rich".

Child tax credit is a HUGE cut for working families, and you want to take that away. Aside from raising their headline tax rate.

All so that you can mildly inconvenience those making between (whatever number you call 'rich') and $450k.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:44 PM

45. I agree. $100,000 on personal should be a much better start.

 

Isn't $250,000 something like the upper 10% or such?

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Response to RC (Reply #45)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 04:43 PM

55. hardly outrage

But I agree. The conversation is all in the wrong direction. We shouldn't be discussing INCREASING the income inflection point, we should be talking about decreasing it. If we are talking about "stop gap" measures, I'd suggest only addressing $50K and below until a larger deal is struck. Write the "truly needy" bill and push it through, with the understanding that there is another bill that needs to be done for the 'middle class".

By the by, anyone else notice that the same day we started talking about moving to 450K and above, the congress got a pay raise?

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:42 PM

29. Yeah I can't see why people would be upset

unless they know something we don't know? ???

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:23 PM

19. I'm with you on this one

This looks like a reasonable deal unless I've really missed something major.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:24 PM

20. Because DU has become the world of "Fuck the working poor"!

It is more important to say NO to the GOP than to help people who need it.

Frankly, most of the Democratic party has become that too, and this is why these issues are not emphasized. Who cares! They confuse these issues with the game "Let's make a deal".

It is a pretty bad deal (and has always been. Who in their right mind defines the middle class up to $250,000), but it will be a life saver for some.

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Response to Mass (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:38 PM

25. Tom Harkin

"As I see this thing developing -- quite frankly, as I've said before -- no deal is better than a bad deal, and this looks like a very bad deal, the way this is shaking up," he said.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:22 PM

37. And he refused to say if he would filibuster

which means that, contrarily to many here, he still cares about them more than about winning one against the GOP

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/31/tom-harkin-fiscal-cliff-talks_n_2388612.html

I actually agree with what Harkin said. I think taxes should have been raised for people with an AGI of at least $100,000. The whole deal is ridiculous. However, this is not a game. There are people who will suffer (or already do, as they do not know what will happen to them tomorrow, and I am not talking about the rich here, or even the middle class). And frankly these people are generally ignored on DU.

But dont worry because there will be no deal. The GOP does not want a deal at all and the Dems are done advocating those who need it anyway.

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Response to Mass (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:04 PM

32. Paul Krugman wants to fuck the working poor, too!

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/

OK, now for the really bad news. Anyone looking at these negotiations, especially given Obama’s previous behavior, can’t help but reach one main conclusion: whenever the president says that there’s an issue on which he absolutely, positively won’t give ground, you can count on him, you know, giving way — and soon, too. The idea that you should only make promises and threats you intend to make good on doesn’t seem to be one that this particular president can grasp.

And that means that Republicans will go right from this negotiation into the debt ceiling in the firm belief that Obama can be rolled.

At that point he can redeem himself by holding firm — but because the Republicans don’t think he will, they will play tough, almost surely forcing him to actually hit the ceiling with all the costs that entails. And look, if I were a Republican I would also be betting that he’ll cave.

So Obama has set himself and the nation up for a much uglier confrontation than we would have had if he had set a negotiating position and held to it.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:48 PM

46. Why can't more people around here see that?

 

It should be fairly obvious to most people by now. But it's not.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 04:19 PM

51. in the words of someone above

generalising about displeased DUers who dare question anything our great leader does or says...

AW man Paul is just a dirty hippy looking for free drugs so he can live in his utopian hippy world!


people on du amaze me :p

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:38 PM

24. Thanks for the heads-up

this deal will help me to focus on my own personal money pit

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:41 PM

27. Word! maybe they have forgotten how long the rich have had 0 taxes

so getting ANY tax increase, the GOP saying fuck you to Norquist and pushing off the sequester INSTEAD of demanding SS cuts.... I really dont see any room for a DEMOCRAT to complain at this point. the liberal part of the left is unhappy that single payer health insurance is not part of this deal or something....

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #27)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:55 AM

62. The rich have not had 'zero taxes' and this deal only raises the very rich by 4.6 %

Current rate is 35% new rate will be 39.6. Those who make 33,300 per month or more will pay an additional 4.6% on the portion of income which is above 400K, not on the entire income, just on the top part, and it is not a raise from zero.
I guess if you really thought they were paying Zero and now it is 39.6 that would seem like a huge breakthrough, but that's not the case. Small increase on huge incomes.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:41 PM

28. Which deal is that? Link please.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:52 PM

31. I get the feeling this is all GOP political theater

 

They already decided how much they would go for, andthis is all to distract from the fact that our defense budget is killing us

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Response to Taverner (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:16 PM

34. Yep, to distract us from crucial issues like global climate change, our

crumbling infrastructure and Americans on the streets, homeless and without the health care and nutrition they need. Also, we who have enough to eat, need to start questioning how safe the food we eat actually is.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 06:43 PM

56. Good points.

We have more vacant homes than homeless people.

And nobody is even looking at one of the problems as a solution to the other.

Look over there... The fiscal cliff.

When are our lawmakers going to stop all the drama and get to work?

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:13 PM

33. Much better to let the ALL the tax rates on rich go back up then pass tax cuts for middle class

The top marginal income taxes, capital gains, dividends and estate tax would all go back up to Clinton era. Far from getting back to pre-Reagan rates on rich but its a start. It would be easy to pass middle class tax cuts though in January.

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Response to ErikJ (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:17 PM

35. I agree but apparently our overlords in Washington don't. n/t

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:18 PM

36. No real deal is being made.

People cheer the President for not giving away things that should never have been an issue. They salute raising income taxes on people who receive little if any of their wealth from wages and salaries while leaving capital gains and inheritance taxes untouched. Failure to raise capital gains and inheritance taxes, combined with a failure to tax financial transactions and a failure to cut national security spending will give cover for the President to capitulate to future corporate demands for reductions in social programs as the deficit continues to increase and federal policy continues to transfer the nations wealth into the hands of the very wealthy.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #36)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:31 PM

40. + My household. n/t

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #36)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:40 PM

43. I agree and would add the republicans get 80% of what they want in this deal. n/t.

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Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #36)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 06:14 AM

59. that is a very good summary

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:28 PM

38. Seems to me like the Republicans doubled the income level to be taxed that Obama campaigned on.

We will get only half of the revenues we started with. Down from 1.6 trillion to 750 Billion.

Social Security does not even factor into the budget and should never have even been brought to the table.

And once again, all we get is the unemployment extended for another year (same thing he buckled on in the debt ceiling negotiations).

Sure looks to me like the Republicans win again. Just imagine what would have happened if the election was close... and I don't even WANT to see what happens when Obama caves on the next round of debt ceiling negotiations.

Wasn't it a treat when Obama at least pretended to have a backbone?

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:30 PM

39. Well, here's a paragraph gleaned off Huffington Post:

What does the article do? It seems to give full credit to the GOP for taking C-CPI off the table:

“CPI has to be off the table because it’s not a winning argument to say benefits for seniors versus tax breaks for rich people,” said Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.). “We need to take CPI off the table — that’s not part of the negotiations — because we can’t win an argument that has Social Security for seniors versus taxes for the rich.”

So, many of us wonder exactly what was Obama’s part in all of this? Why would he put the CPI measures inside his package. Is he friends with Grover Norquist? What gives? Why is it McCain who is mentioning the necessity of keeping Social Security strong. (And actually, Social Security has already been weakened. Lost in all this Fiscal Cliff nonsense is the fact that those of us born in the fifties have to wait till we are 67 to receive a benefit others got at 65. If you retire at 65, you end up losing a substantial portion of the monthly payments - for LIFE!)

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:31 PM

41. Agree 100%. Glad to see someone look at this deal in a rational way instead of.....

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:42 PM

44. There is no need to be outraged anymore, the Republicans took the Chained

CPI off the table which is what the outrage was about in the first place. If that is no longer in there, and I'm sure you would be outraged over making Seniors pay the gambling debts of Wall St., then you can relax. Until they try again and we will again take action, as we did this time, to stop them once again.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 04:08 PM

49. I dunno, but im glad you made this post

the closet right wingers are coming out in droves and exposing themselves with insults about drugs and utopias because oh our liberal ideas are just soooooo extreme.


thanks for making my list of frauds on DU a lil bit bigger!

(if you guys think they only put plants in crowds of people and not on internet forums, ur all crazy... both sides have plants on DU)

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 04:09 PM

50. Outrage makes no sense

 


Regardless of what happened today all this drama is really about is setting the parameters for tax reform next year. Obama had to get some rate increase in order to have leverage when it comes to tax reform. Tax reform will probably hit high income earners a little harder and will even hit middle class folks.

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)


Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 06:25 AM

60. Agree 100%



I thought our far left flank was more sane than the GOP far right. And while I think that is definitely the case, it would be unfair to say we don't have our fair share of folks that don't understand what's going on.


This is a great deal! Obama won. And in my view he won big.


This is what I wrote last night in another thread:

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Remember, this is the GOP working on this deal to increase taxes. Talk about hell freezing over!!!!!!


That alone is a huge victory for the President.


We need to step back and look at the forest instead of the trees. Look how far Obama has moved the GOP! This is actually amazing!


Remember, Clinton's tax increase passed the Senate without 1 GOP vote in 1993! Many believe this is what led to the huge GOP gains in 1994. Now Obama will put the Clinton taxes back in place with bi-partisan support. And he did it under much more partisan circumstances.


He is going to go down as an all time great President!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________


People need to step back and truly understand what a great job the white house did with these negotiations. To get an idea of how bad the GOP took it on the chin, just wait until Boehner tries to get this through the house. Its not going to be pretty. And I am going to enjoy watching the House GOP bow down to the power of the President!

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Response to boxman15 (Original post)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:46 AM

61. As an "Obama critic" I don't think it's a terrible deal (cont)

 

From what little I have seen so far at any rate.

I am disappointed that the tax increase was not applied at 250K. Obama vowed that he would veto any extention of the tax cuts for those making over $250,000. True to form, he didn't follow through. At this point the GOP has to know that the surest sign Obama will cave immediately is if he vowes not to. I am disappointed that we will have to go through this nonsense again in a couple months.

I am disgusted that he proposed chained CPI. That is simply inexcusable. It's pretty freaking sad when Ronald Reagan is more "liberal" on social security than our own President, but there it is. Chained CPI didn't pass this time, but it will make a comeback.

The worst thing in my opinion is that Obama is still not advancing Democratic party solutions. He's still talking about the deficits and cutting entitlement spending. He's still playing "enlightened republican."

I will not say we would have been better off going over the cliff, but we very well might have been. We wont know until the actual details of this plan become known. We'll see what cuts Obama agreed to.

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