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Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:04 PM

Transcript from my show, how to move the needle on Gun Control

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/lesersense/2012/12/31/making-sense-with-steve-leser--week-in-review

Typing the word “shooting” in a google news search today yields stories of nine separate shootings in the last 24 hours just on the first page of that search.

This is part of what we need to consider in the wake of Sandy Hook. There is a massive level of gun violence in this country to which we have become so desensitized we just gloss right over most reports of it in the news. That’s one of the big problems.

Folks, stop being desensitized to everyday gun violence. That is the first thing we have to do to start changing things. As horrific as it was, I am telling you now as I have on my last couple of shows, Sandy Hook is not going to be enough to force any kind of meaningful change. It’s going to take more. It’s going to take a constant reminding people of all of the carnage that happens on a daily basis in this country.
.
.
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That is why I say that meaningful gun control is going to take a lot of awareness raising and unfortunately a lot more carnage before it happens. This is something that is frustrating for people in the inner cities, particularly people of color in the inner cities because they have been experiencing this first hand for decades and desperately trying to raise awareness about it.

Take the important step, and this is for everyone who hears this show, take the step at least a couple of days a week and go to Google, click on the News menu tab at the top and then in the search field type the word “shooting” and click the little blue magnifying glass button and check out the results. Do this a couple of times a week and post at least one or two of the shooting articles of the last 24 hours on your facebook or twitter page or mail it to your friends. Get as many other people that you know to do the same.

I did it for the first time today. If enough of us just do this simple thing, I promise you, we will be on the short road to meaningful gun control in this country.

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Reply Transcript from my show, how to move the needle on Gun Control (Original post)
stevenleser Dec 2012 OP
peacebird Dec 2012 #1
L0oniX Dec 2012 #2
GoneOffShore Dec 2012 #4
stevenleser Dec 2012 #5
L0oniX Dec 2012 #8
stevenleser Dec 2012 #9
L0oniX Dec 2012 #10
stevenleser Dec 2012 #11
L0oniX Dec 2012 #13
stevenleser Dec 2012 #16
L0oniX Dec 2012 #18
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #56
stevenleser Dec 2012 #12
L0oniX Dec 2012 #14
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #57
Berserker Dec 2012 #20
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #36
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #21
stevenleser Dec 2012 #28
spin Dec 2012 #54
rl6214 Jan 2013 #62
bongbong Jan 2013 #79
rl6214 Jan 2013 #112
L0oniX Dec 2012 #7
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #39
AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #80
L0oniX Jan 2013 #105
stevenleser Jan 2013 #107
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #3
Hoyt Dec 2012 #6
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #70
Blanks Dec 2012 #15
stevenleser Dec 2012 #17
hack89 Dec 2012 #19
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #23
hack89 Dec 2012 #25
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #27
hack89 Dec 2012 #30
libodem Jan 2013 #151
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #71
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #33
hack89 Dec 2012 #37
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #40
hack89 Dec 2012 #42
hack89 Dec 2012 #43
spin Dec 2012 #58
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #59
spin Jan 2013 #61
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #69
spin Jan 2013 #101
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #108
spin Jan 2013 #110
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #60
hack89 Jan 2013 #66
hack89 Jan 2013 #67
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #72
hack89 Jan 2013 #82
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #84
hack89 Jan 2013 #87
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #90
hack89 Jan 2013 #98
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #124
hack89 Jan 2013 #126
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #132
hack89 Jan 2013 #135
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #146
Hoyt Dec 2012 #55
hack89 Jan 2013 #65
Hoyt Jan 2013 #68
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #74
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #73
hack89 Jan 2013 #85
Hoyt Jan 2013 #91
hack89 Jan 2013 #97
Hoyt Jan 2013 #99
hack89 Jan 2013 #102
Hoyt Jan 2013 #103
hack89 Jan 2013 #104
aikoaiko Dec 2012 #22
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #34
derby378 Jan 2013 #136
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #24
stevenleser Dec 2012 #26
hack89 Dec 2012 #31
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #35
hack89 Dec 2012 #38
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #41
hack89 Dec 2012 #44
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #49
hack89 Dec 2012 #50
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #51
Straw Man Jan 2013 #63
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #75
hack89 Jan 2013 #64
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #77
hack89 Jan 2013 #81
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #88
hack89 Jan 2013 #89
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #92
hack89 Jan 2013 #96
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #93
hack89 Jan 2013 #95
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #133
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #76
hack89 Jan 2013 #83
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #111
hack89 Jan 2013 #113
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #117
hack89 Jan 2013 #118
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #125
hack89 Jan 2013 #128
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #130
hack89 Jan 2013 #134
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #145
hack89 Jan 2013 #148
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #149
hack89 Jan 2013 #150
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #152
hack89 Jan 2013 #153
Fresh_Start Dec 2012 #29
spanone Dec 2012 #32
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #45
regjoe Dec 2012 #46
stevenleser Dec 2012 #47
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #52
regjoe Jan 2013 #114
billh58 Jan 2013 #121
regjoe Jan 2013 #143
billh58 Jan 2013 #100
regjoe Jan 2013 #115
billh58 Jan 2013 #120
regjoe Jan 2013 #122
billh58 Jan 2013 #123
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #131
derby378 Jan 2013 #137
regjoe Jan 2013 #142
billh58 Jan 2013 #144
OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #48
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #53
spanone Jan 2013 #78
GoneOffShore Jan 2013 #86
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #94
stevenleser Jan 2013 #106
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #109
stevenleser Jan 2013 #116
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #119
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #127
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #129
billh58 Jan 2013 #138
stevenleser Jan 2013 #139
jody Jan 2013 #140
stevenleser Jan 2013 #141
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #147
farminator3000 Jan 2013 #154
billh58 Jan 2013 #155

Response to stevenleser (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:09 PM

1. Good idea, will do so

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Response to stevenleser (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:12 PM

2. Google "gun defense" too. n/t

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:15 PM

4. Just did and that's a lot of NRA talking points.

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:21 PM

5. That is the intent of that poster, to derail this OP nt

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:28 PM

8. ...because fair and balanced is not just for Fox news. n/t

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:29 PM

9. How unsurprising that cheap shots would be taken by a gun enthusiast. nt

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:36 PM

10. Again with the fair and balanced Fox news twist ..."gun enthusiast"

All gun owners are "gun enthusiasts" huh. So by your rational the US military is also a "gun enthusiast".

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:38 PM

11. You tell me. You seem to know a lot more about Fox News than I do. You agree with hosts there

I disagree and argue with them.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:43 PM

13. I know this ...the gun debate on DU is totally one sided ...and that is not a debate of any sort.

"You seem to know a lot more about Fox News than I do. You agree with hosts there I disagree and argue with them."

hmmm irony or hypocrisy?

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:47 PM

16. That a huge percentage of your fellow DUers disagree with you ought to give you pause.

I am all for standing by your principles if you are sure about them. But I am also about re-examining them to make sure you are right if enough of the right people disagree with you.

Then again, someone who relies on red herring logical fallacies like you do isn't likely to be swayed by logic.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:52 PM

18. Going along with the gang is not always the right thing to do but it sure does make...

them feel right. I am for a balanced discussion on gun control. Twist that or reframe that however you want.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 06:25 PM

56. if it isn't right why are you doing it? you are a drone!

There are some problems with these government numbers, beginning with the fact that they are based on data from the early 1990s, when crime rates were much higher than they are today. The number of criminal attempts has declined 30% to 40% since then, and one would expect the number of occasions for self-defense to decline correspondingly.

For gun advocates, however, the main problem with the government estimate is that it is not nearly high enough to support their case that private gun ownership is the best way to stop crime. Many of them prefer another statistic, this from a study published in 1995 arguing that Americans use guns in self-defense some 2.5 million times a year, or once every 13 seconds. A Google search finds more than 1 million citations of this study posted online.

You can read the study here.

The trouble is that this claim of 2.5 million defensive gun uses is manifestly flawed and misleading.

Let's review the ways:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/opinion/frum-guns-safer/index.html

near end-
"To be clear: I'm not disputing that guns sometimes save lives. They must. I'm certainly not disputing that the Constitution secures the right of individual gun ownership. It does. I'm questioning the claim that widespread gun ownership makes America a safer place. The research supporting that claim is pretty weak -- and is contradicted above all by the plain fact that most other advanced countries have many fewer guns and also many fewer crimes and criminals."

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:39 PM

12. P.S. thanks for kicking my OP on gun control, and demonstrating your right wing viewpoints. nt

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:44 PM

14. Wanting balance is now "right wing viewpoints". OK n/t

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 06:27 PM

57. #56

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:06 PM

20. Particularly "people of color" in the inner cities

 

Who really talks like that ummmm let me think Oh yeah I know. And calling people who don't agree with you Right Wing and you have a talk show go figure. You don't want to debate on gun control you just want to argue and name call. Have fun.

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Response to Berserker (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:05 PM

36. whaaaa????

he meant 'kick' the thread? bump? move upwards? hello?

what do YOU want to do?

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:15 PM

21. Apparently you would prefer gun nut, or perhaps gungeoneer?

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:49 PM

28. Exactly. Why is "Gun Enthusiast" considered a slur now? Isn't that what they are?

What was it that Tom Tomorrow called them? Delicate flowers? Are their sensibilities so easily offended?

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 06:20 PM

54. In passing, neither term bothers me in the least ...

I spend a lot of my time on DU in the Gungeon so I would take no offense at being called a gungeoneer" and I have been called a "gun nut" for probably 30 years.

Be aware that there is a web site for "gun nuts" at http://gunnuts.net/ It provides information on shooting and firearms to those interested in the sport.

For some reason it appears that those who dislike firearms feel it is an insult to call a person who owns several guns and enjoys shooting a gun nut but many gun owners are actually proud to be considered one.

I realize that you were not replying to me but to another poster. I can't for the life of me understand why a real gun nut would take any offense at being called a gun enthusiast.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 01:14 AM

62. At least he didn't say gun nut or gun fetishist or

 

Any of the other childish insults they like to throw around

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #62)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:54 AM

79. I feel sorry for you

 

I'm using the mildest, most sensitive term I can think of. As formulated by Tom Tomorrow in his homage to super-sensitive gun lovers.

> Any of the other childish insults they like to throw around

Delicate Flower. I know you're not talking about that phrase.

Would you like me to use a different term? Maybe "Super Sensitive, Super Manly, Rambo-like Gunnies"?

I look forward to hearing what the gun-religionists prefer. One of my New Year's Resolutions is to be more sensitive to others.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #79)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 05:25 AM

112. Back to your bong I see

 

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:26 PM

7. So is the 2nd amendment. n/t

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:10 PM

39. if you are seriously trying to say the NRA owns the 2nd amendment, or has any frigging regard for it

whatsoever, you are what? being paid by them? any person who can put two paragraphs together knows they are EVIL! i know the link is from 1994, so what?


Emblazoned across the front of the NRA headquarters in Washington, D.C., is half of this amendment--the second half. It's a testament to how well the NRA does its job that most Americans probably don't know about the first half, with its clunky and inconvenient dependent clause. But that's how the Founding Fathers wrote it. The NRA's reasons for focusing on its backside are fairly obvious, but what do the courts say about the Second Amendment?


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1994/01/seconds-missing-half

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:57 AM

80. Google "home invasion" might be more accurate

 

Some examples from a 1/1/2013 Google News search prior to posting:

Three people charged with assault, home invasion in Taney County ...
http://articles.kspr.com/2012-12-31/home-invasion_36084957

Man Pistol Whipped During Home Invasion In San Francisco's ...
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/12/31/man-pistol-whipped-during-home-invasion-in-san-franciscos-mission-district/

Two shot, one arrested in Galva home invasion
http://qctimes.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/two-shot-one-arrested-in-galva-home-invasion/article_9eab089a-53a4-11e2-9067-0019bb2963f4.html?comment_form=true

Jewelry Store Robbery Began with Bethlehem Home Invasion
http://bethlehem.patch.com/articles/jewelry-store-robbery-began-with-bethlehem-home-invasion

Arrest made in south Fort Myers home invasion, stabbing
http://www.news-press.com/article/20121231/CRIME/121231025/Arrest-made-south-Fort-Myers-home-invasion-stabbing

2 men accused in Prescott home invasion
http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/2-men-accused-in-Prescott-home-invasion-4158320.php

Help sought in solving home invasion, robbery, murder
http://www.news-gazette.com/news/courts-police-and-fire/2012-12-31/help-sought-solving-home-invasion-robbery-murder.html

Top 10 Stories of 2012: Brutal Home Invasion Attack Leaves Bedford ...
http://bedford-nh.patch.com/articles/top-10-stories-of-2012-brutal-home-invasion-attack-leaves-bedford-residents-on-edge

Home invasion suspect steals wedding rings from couple
http://www.winknews.com/Local-Florida/2012-12-31/Home-invasion-suspect-steals-wedding-rings-from-couple

Police: Men Arrested After Home Invasion
http://northbrook.patch.com/articles/police-men-arrested-after-home-invasion

An honest discussion would include a consideration of these. Those who wish to squelch an honest discussion may want to call these reports or any references to them "right-wing talking points" or "NRA talking points."

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #80)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 02:54 PM

105. Just like FOX ...they are not interested in fair and balanced. n/t

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #105)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 03:23 PM

107. Thanks for the kick of my pro-Gun Control OP! nt

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Response to stevenleser (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:14 PM

3. I would suggest looking at the causes of crime, and addressing those.

The Democratic Party used to do this.



Now, it's just gun-control.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:25 PM

6. No, we want to look at both. The solution is multi-faceted with guns being part of solution.

Sorry, your guns need to be restricted, no matter what other steps are taken.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:42 AM

70. here's an good article (old) about the causes of murder. from 1957 - hardly ANY GUNS

http://www.all-about-forensic-psychology.com/murder-article.html

Because of its mixture of races and cultures, and its extremes of wealth, New York City supplies a rich sample of modes in murder. A study of 320 murders in 1958 showed that about half the killers used knives or other cutting instruments. They used hand guns only half as often and blunt instruments only a fourth as often. They killed with their bare hands only one time in eight. Far down the list were rifles, shotguns, poisons, and the automobile.


and now guns and cars kill around 30,000 a year.

cause?

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Response to stevenleser (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:46 PM

15. More attention should be paid to the 'well-regulated' part of the 2nd amendment.

If people want to possess weapons on their property; there should be necessary training and refreshing intervals.

The right of 'the people' to keep and bear arms means that the Feds cannot pass a law preventing the Kansas Army National Guard from having weapons in their armory.

It makes sense if we get away from the NRA talking points and pay attention to what the framers actually said.

It would be a lot easier for people to defend themselves if there weren't so many people running around with dangerous weapons.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:51 PM

17. I agree, and the point of that part of the gun control segment on my show is, getting to the point

where a majority of the country agree with meaningful additional regulation is going to require raising awareness to show just how bad things are, just how frequent the shootings are.

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Response to stevenleser (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:58 PM

19. Did your show discuss how we have reduced gun deaths

from murder and manslaughter by 50 % since 1992? Perhaps identifying how we did that would help guide the discussion.

Gun violence is at historic lows and steadily declining so we must be doing something right.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:17 PM

23. We reduced the proportion of male youths aged 16-26 in the population and that is what tracks

the decrease in the crime rate, and you know it, and your implication that the flood of guns is somehow correlated is bullshit.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:26 PM

25. More guns did not decrease gun deaths.

the issue is much too complex to even consider that. All we can say with any certainty is that more guns did not result in more gun violence.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:30 PM

27. umm actually it has resulted in more gun suicides.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #27)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:47 PM

30. Since we slashed criminal gun violence without strict gun control

there is no reason to believe we can't do the same with suicides.

Suicide is a mental health issue - proper healthcare is the solution. We need to spend billions on healthcare, not prisons.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 09:01 PM

151. Thank you, Warren

Most excellent point!

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Response to hack89 (Reply #25)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:49 AM

71. right, more guns "did not decrease". THEY INCREASED murders. they do it EVERY DAY 18.8 times

All we can say with any certainty is that more guns did not result in more gun violence.

all i can say to that is-
farminator3000
59. and? isn't it odd how you never even mention the NRA for some reason? as if it doesn't exist?

20 Deadliest Gun States
Jan 10, 2011 8:13 PM EST
You're five times more likely to die from a gun in Arizona than Hawaii. In the wake of the Giffords massacre, The Daily Beast ranks which states have the worst record of gun fatalities.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/01/11/20-deadliest-gun-states-from-mississippi-to-arizona.html

***

From murders to suicides, Arizona is consistently among the most deadly states in the nation for gun violence, federal records show.

Over a nine-year span, the state's rate of gun deaths of all types ranked seventh in the United States and sixth for gun-involved slayings, according to an Arizona Republic analysis of death reports compiled by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The rankings are based on data from 1999 to 2007, the most recent statistics available from the CDC.

Overall, violent-crime rates in Arizona are not far from rates for the U.S. as a whole, but the rate of deaths specifically tied to guns surprises national experts.

Crime-victimization patterns that measure factors such as age and racial demographics suggest that Arizona would figure to be among the states with a lower risk for violent crime.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/pinal/20110127arizona-gun-death-rate-nations-worst-sev.html

and? you were saying something about guns are safe?




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Response to hack89 (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:54 PM

33. did your post contain a link or any truth, AT ALL? i think not- "The simple truth is that more guns

equal more death.

An analysis this year from the Violence Policy Center found that “states with low gun ownership rates and strong gun laws have the lowest rates of gun death.” The report continued, “by contrast, states with weak gun laws and higher rates of gun ownership had far higher rates of firearm-related death.” According to the analysis, Massachusetts, Hawaii, New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut had the lowest per capita gun death rates. Each of those states had “strong gun laws and low gun ownership rates. On the other hand, “ranking first in the nation for gun death was Louisiana, followed by Wyoming, Alabama, Montana, and Mississippi.” Those states had “weak gun laws and higher rates of gun ownership.”

What’s more, deaths may be a misleading statistic that minimizes the true breadth of gun violence. Another report this year by the Violence Policy Center, using data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, found that while gun deaths remained relatively flat from 2000 to 2008, the total number of people shot went up nearly 20 percent since 2001. Why the difference between rates of shootings and deaths? “Advances in emergency services — including the 911 system and establishment of trauma centers — as well as better surgical techniques,” the report said. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/22/opinion/blow-guns-smoke-and-mirrors.html

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:08 PM

37. Go read the DOJ and FBI Uniform Crime Reports

where you will see year after year a decline not only in murder rates but absolute numbers.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr

Here is a small sample:

2006 - 10,225 gun murder victims

2010 - 8,775 gun murder victims


http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls

Edit: Link to table with numbers and rates from 1991 to 2010

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl01.xls

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Response to hack89 (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:27 PM

40. i've seen all that, thanks

hack89 (18,114 posts)
19. Did your show discuss how we have reduced gun deaths

from murder and manslaughter by 50 % since 1992? Perhaps identifying how we did that would help guide the discussion.


i'm guiding the discussion. 50% you say? do tell! wasn't there a ban on guns from 1994-2004 or something?

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:36 PM

42. Let me show you an AWB legal "assault weapon"

The present California AWB is stricter than the original AWB - this weapon is legal in California:




http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/ColtCaliforniaCompliantRifles.aspx

The original AWB had so many holes in it that it banned nothing - in fact sales skyrocketed.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:40 PM

43. Rifles and shotguns combined account for about 3% of murders.

the AWB could not possibly account for such a huge drop.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 06:33 PM

58. There was never a ban on guns during the expired AWB ...

Certain cosmetic features on some firearms was banned and the production of magazines that had a capacity of more than 10 rounds was stopped after a certain date.

Semi-automatic riles and handguns were available during the AWB as the manufacturers merely removed certain cosmetic features and continued to produce them. In fact the publicity about such firearms caused their sale to skyrocket just as the threat of another AWB is causing a six month backlog for anyone wishing to get one.

Hi-cap magazines were also available as the manufacturers of these devises simply ramped up production prior to the cut off date. They were expensive but most of the shooters who bought a black rifle or a semi-auto pistol had several.

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Response to spin (Reply #58)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 07:02 PM

59. and? isn't it odd how you never even mention the NRA for some reason? as if it doesn't exist?

guns are gonna get more expensive, because their are WAY TOO MANY!

more laws, too. the people who have all the guns are a MINORITY.

the NRA is to blame for any problems with previous laws, any sane human being knows that.

i've known it for 35 years, wake up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/22/opinion/blow-guns-smoke-and-mirrors.html


about BATF-
One immediate task for Vice President Joseph Biden Jr., who is heading the new White House group on gun violence that will report recommendations in January, is to focus on dismantling the senseless obstacles impeding the bureau’s day-to-day functioning.

The bureau — which should have a lead role in protecting the nation from gun crimes — has been severely hindered by an array of N.R.A.-backed legislative restrictions. For example, a 1986 law prohibits A.T.F. agents from making more than one unannounced inspection a year on a gun dealer, a rule that serves no purpose other than protecting unscrupulous dealers. (As it is, a lack of agents means that a gun shop can go years between inspections.)

The same law makes it extremely difficult to pull the licenses of rogue gun dealers. The government must show not just that the conduct was intentional but that the violator knew it was illegal.

Language included in every A.T.F. appropriations bill since 1979 has prohibited the bureau from putting gun sales records into a central computer database. That means workers at the bureau’s tracing center often must call gun makers and sellers and go through paper files to identify the buyer of a gun linked to a crime.

Finally, the so-called Tiahrt amendments, attached to federal spending bills, require the federal government to destroy the background check records of gun buyers within 24 hours of approval. That makes it very hard to identify dealers who falsify sales records.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #59)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 12:57 AM

61. Well there are going to be a lot more firearms in civilian hands in the immediate future. ...

12/19/12
Local News

Gun Sales Skyrocket Amid Fear Over Stricter Control

LOS ANGELES (KTLA) — It’s happening across the country, including at EM and M Jewelry and Guns in Orange County.

Demands for stricter gun control laws and talk of reviving an expired ban on assault weapons has people swamping stores to buy weapons.

“The spike in business has doubled, tripled,” said Emily Atkinson, the Orange County store’s owner.

“People are not just afraid of some bad guy breaking in they’re scared they won’t have the right,” she said.

Atkinson said she sold $20,000 worth of guns and ammunition on Wednesday alone.

Read more at http://ktla.com/2012/12/19/gun-sales-skyrocket-amid-fear-over-stricter-control/#ZfDRbkS7AGK5w4v0.99


This is exactly the same thing that happened prior to the last AWB. Bans rarely work and often have unintended consequences. Had it not been for the last ban military style semi-auto rifles would be nowhere as popular as they are today.

The gun control movement has done far more to increase the sales of firearms than the NRA ever could. If your proponents merely suggested making some sensible changes to our laws instead of constantly using the "ban" word we might actually reduce the number of firearms on our streets.

I should point out that unlike the majority of my shooting friends I have never bought an assault style rifle nor do I own any semi-auto pistols with a magazine capacity of more than 10 rounds. I currently have no reason to buy one as I see no need.

You point out that gun owners are a minority in our nation but I will point out in return that the 80,000,000 gun owners and the members of their families who are of voting age are a significant minority as many are strong supporters of gun rights. They will show up at the polls to vote against any politician who supports "banning" firearms. In many Red states they will send pro gun rights candidates to Congress and that will guarantee that no real gun bans occur during my life time.

Still you might just be right and I might be wrong.

Time will tell.





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Response to spin (Reply #61)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:34 AM

69. civilians are running out of hands for the damn guns. do you shoot with your feet?

yeah great, so if there's 80 mill. gun owners, and 300 mill. guns. that's 3.75 GUNS PER OWNER.


The gun control movement has done far more to increase the sales of firearms than the NRA ever could.

i actually agree with you except, i wouldn't blame gun control. i think your statement shows exactly what is going on- the NRA makes everyone paranoid about their right to a gun, and every time a new law is mentioned, all the members go on a buying spree, even though they already have 3.75 guns!

the NRA is a multi Million dollar gun lobby, um, they aren't just target shooting, y KNOW?


instead of constantly using the "ban" word we might actually reduce the number of firearms on our streets.


THIS, I AGREE WITH!!! WE AGREE!!! i will leave that as is...

I should point out that unlike the majority of my shooting friends I have never bought an assault style rifle nor do I own any semi-auto pistols with a magazine capacity of more than 10 rounds. I currently have no reason to buy one as I see no need.


YOU ARE COOL! i like that part, too.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #69)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 01:28 PM

101. I have never bought into the NRA propaganda that the feds will confiscate my guns ...

unless I donate to the NRA-ILA.

If I had, I would own at least one semi-auto military style rifle and several pistols with magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.

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Response to spin (Reply #101)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:08 PM

108. good for you!

don't waste your money.

donate here!:
http://www.charity-charities.org/charities/FL.html

(not all, of course!)

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #108)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:49 PM

110. That's a good link.Thanks. (n/t)

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Response to hack89 (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 07:41 PM

60. no. read this.

Government figures from the National Survey of Criminal Victimization suggest 100,000 uses a year of guns in self-defense against crime, the vast majority of these uses being the display of weapons to deter or dissuade.

There are some problems with these government numbers, beginning with the fact that they are based on data from the early 1990s, when crime rates were much higher than they are today. The number of criminal attempts has declined 30% to 40% since then, and one would expect the number of occasions for self-defense to decline correspondingly.

For gun advocates, however, the main problem with the government estimate is that it is not nearly high enough to support their case that private gun ownership is the best way to stop crime. Many of them prefer another statistic, this from a study published in 1995 arguing that Americans use guns in self-defense some 2.5 million times a year, or once every 13 seconds. A Google search finds more than 1 million citations of this study posted online.

You can read the study here.

The trouble is that this claim of 2.5 million defensive gun uses is manifestly flawed and misleading.

Let's review the ways:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/opinion/frum-guns-safer/index.html

***

"The simple truth is that more guns
equal more death.

An analysis this year from the Violence Policy Center found that “states with low gun ownership rates and strong gun laws have the lowest rates of gun death.” The report continued, “by contrast, states with weak gun laws and higher rates of gun ownership had far higher rates of firearm-related death.” According to the analysis, Massachusetts, Hawaii, New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut had the lowest per capita gun death rates. Each of those states had “strong gun laws and low gun ownership rates. On the other hand, “ranking first in the nation for gun death was Louisiana, followed by Wyoming, Alabama, Montana, and Mississippi.” Those states had “weak gun laws and higher rates of gun ownership.”

What’s more, deaths may be a misleading statistic that minimizes the true breadth of gun violence. Another report this year by the Violence Policy Center, using data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, found that while gun deaths remained relatively flat from 2000 to 2008, the total number of people shot went up nearly 20 percent since 2001. Why the difference between rates of shootings and deaths? “Advances in emergency services — including the 911 system and establishment of trauma centers — as well as better surgical techniques,” the report said. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/22/opinion/blow-guns-smoke-and-mirrors.html

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #60)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:14 AM

66. 1992 - 24,703 deaths. 2010 - 14,748 deaths

that is how much we have cut deaths due to murder and manslaughter.

Hard facts you cannot refute.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #60)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:23 AM

67. And yet all those states with lax gun laws saw declines in gun violence

over the past 20 years. How is that possible?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #67)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:00 AM

72. that is complete BS- the 5 states with worst laws=most deaths,5 with best laws=least deaths- read it

hack89 (18,125 posts)
66. 1992 - 24,703 deaths. 2010 - 14,748 deaths
that is how much we have cut deaths due to murder and manslaughter.
Hard facts you cannot refute.

hack89 (18,125 posts)
67. And yet all those states with lax gun laws saw declines in gun violence
over the past 20 years. How is that possible?


it IS NOT POSSIBLE. IT IS THE SAME NRA "talking point" you post over and over. it is patently UNTRUE


ny times-
“ found that while gun deaths remained relatively flat from 2000 to 2008, the total number of people shot went up nearly 20 percent since 2001. Why the difference between rates of shootings and deaths?
Advances in emergency services — including the 911 system and establishment of trauma centers — as well as better surgical techniques,” the report said. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/22/opinion/blow-guns-smoke-and-mirrors.html


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/01/11/20-deadliest-gun-states-from-mississippi-to-arizona.html


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/22/opinion/blow-guns-smoke-and-mirrors.html

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #72)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:16 AM

82. Statistics give you problems don't they?

simple question - did those states have more or fewer gun deaths in 1992 compared to now?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #82)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:29 AM

84. they are a problem when you don't provide any, slappy

i have better things to do than waste time looking up crap to dispute something which is meaningless.

so YES deaths have gone down- this is what civilized societies do- work to lessen SENSELESS DEATHS

gun deaths and car deaths are going down since the 1990s, of course. like i SHOWED you, this is because of better EMT care and medical reasons, also drunk driving laws AND gun safety laws that WORK.

you're "idea" that it is all because of more guns is PREPOSTEROUS and SELFISH.
also PROPAGANDA that maybe you are being fed, and don't even realize, so i don't blame you.
does that part in BOLD look anywhere near your magical 50%???

18.8 people EVERY DAY. getting shot. i'd think you'd be a little more mature, don't you have kids?

http://www.azfgs.com/the-facts/deaths.aspx

Deaths

Arizona’s gun violence death rate is among the highest in the nation. Arizona ranked 10th out of the 50 states in its rate of violence-related gun deaths in 2003. (Violence refers to suicides, homicides, and legal intervention.) Arizona’s violence-related gun death rate of 14.7 per 100,000 was considerably higher than the national rate of 9.9 per 100,000.
A total of 8,815 Arizona residents died from the misuse of guns in the last decade (1995-2004). Fifty-seven percent of these deaths were the result of suicide; 37% were the result of homicide; 3% were the result of accidents; 2% were the result of legal intervention; and 1% were from an undetermined cause.
Although generally decreasing over the decade, gun-related deaths jumped 4% in 2004. These deaths increased from 834 in 2003 to 873 in 2004 -- but overall gun-related deaths decreased from an all-time high of 1,010 in 1995.
Well over half of all homicides and suicides are committed with a gun. In 2004, 68% of all homicides and 59% of all suicides were committed with a gun.
Minority groups are disproportionately impacted by gun violence. African Americans had the highest gun-related death rate (24.9 per 100,000) and the highest gun-related homicide rate (18.8 per 100,000) among racial/ethnic groups in 2004. Latinos had the second highest gun-related death rate (17.3 per 100,000) and the second highest gun-related homicide rate (11.1 per 100,000). In contrast, whites had a lower gun-related death rate (14.1 per 100,000) but a gun-related suicide rate twice that of minorities (10.6 per 100,000).
More than 5 times the number of Arizona residents died from gun violence (873) than from HIV/AIDS (156) in 2004.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #84)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:36 AM

87. I gave you a whole web site of official crime reports

the fact that you refuse to read it says it all as far as I am concerned.

Thanks for the link showing Arizona has fewer gun deaths than they had in 1995. Looks like I was right.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #87)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:45 AM

90. and cherry picked ONE number from that site, stop wasting my time look at post #88

there are LOTS of official reports. they don't mean anything if you just look at one.

Overview

An estimated 1,417,745 violent crimes occurred nationwide in 2006.
There were an estimated 473.5 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants.
When data for 2006 to 2005 were compared, the estimated volume of violent crime increased 1.9 percent. The 5-year trend (2006 compared with 2002) indicated that violent crime decreased 0.4 percent. For the 10-year trend (2006 compared with 1997) violent crime fell 13.3 percent.

Thanks for the link showing Arizona has fewer gun deaths than they had in 1995. Looks like I was right.


Did your show discuss how we have reduced gun deaths
from murder and manslaughter by 50 % since 1992? Perhaps identifying how we did that would help guide the discussion.


last time i checked, 800 is about 20% less than 1,000, so WHERE DOES THIS 50% BS come from again?

who is not reading?

the great thing here is, if someone who is undecided about gun control is reading this, you kind of look like
a mindless zealot, and you are giving your people a bad name!!!

thanks!!

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #90)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 12:30 PM

98. You are looking at one state

look at the entire country from 1992 to 2010.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #98)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:33 PM

124. you are looking at one number and saying it is proof for a bunch of hoo-hah

ny times-
“ found that while gun deaths remained relatively flat from 2000 to 2008, the total number of people shot went up nearly 20 percent since 2001. Why the difference between rates of shootings and deaths?
Advances in emergency services — including the 911 system and establishment of trauma centers — as well as better surgical techniques,” the report said. "


and completely ignoring the bold part there (aka EVERYTHING)

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #124)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 01:44 PM

126. No - I am looking at multiple tables spanning decades

you really need to look at the FBI data.

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #132)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 02:26 PM

135. So a single NY Times article trumps decades of FBI statistics?

OK

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Response to hack89 (Reply #135)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 07:12 PM

146. see #145

got it?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 06:20 PM

55. If it's so low, why don't the gun cultists hang up their friggin guns.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #55)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 08:11 AM

65. Because we don't only have guns for self defense.

my guns are used for target shooting.

Besides, pissing you off is reason enough to keep them.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #65)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 09:07 AM

68. And, there are other reasons gun cultists don't admit, sometimes to themselves.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #68)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:05 AM

74. they can't admit it if they're being brainwashed!

It was an appalling display of deflection and deception. So much smoke and so many mirrors.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/22/opinion/blow-guns-smoke-and-mirrors.html

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Response to hack89 (Reply #65)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 10:03 AM

73. then why do you keep saying they are so necessary and vital for your protection

your last statement pretty much says it all

what you said sounds to me like
"i don't care if there are mass murders and 18.8 people shot a day, i want to have fun and wayne told me i can"

really, that's what it sounds like. i assume you are a grown man, so...

lame

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Response to farminator3000 (Reply #73)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:31 AM

85. I shoot purely for recreation.

I live in a safe area so I don't need a gun constantly handy for self defense.

I don't care what you think. Nothing personal but you are just another ill informed person on the internet. Fun to tuck with but nothing more.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #85)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:51 AM

91. You can always take up a hobby that is better for society.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #91)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 12:29 PM

97. My hobby has never hurt a single person. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #97)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 12:36 PM

99. Maybe not directly, but yes it does hurt indirectly. I'm sure you don't care, though.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #99)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 01:38 PM

102. Should I stop drinking beer?

because as a member of the alcohol culture I must be indirectly responsible for the carnage wrecks on society.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #102)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 01:41 PM

103. Definitely, also taking prescription meds that affect judgement, while around your lethal weapons.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #103)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 01:44 PM

104. Can I drink if I have no guns?

I would not then be indirectly responsible for alcohol related deaths?

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Response to stevenleser (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:16 PM

22. I did what you asked.


And I can see how someone who already wants to expand restrictions would find motivation in those google results.

At the same time, someone who already owns a firearm for self-defense will see lots of reason to keep and bear arms.



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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:57 PM

34. you can keep your gun.

Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act, to include:

Background check of owner and any transferee;
Type and serial number of the firearm;
Positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint;
Certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and
Dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration

http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/27/alert-sen-diane-feinstein-releases-gun-ban-summary-for-2013/


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