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Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:50 PM

Patriotism is for fools!

Last edited Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:53 PM - Edit history (1)

Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy. - Henry Kissinger

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children." - Dwight Eisenhower

You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.- Abbie Hoffman


Blind obedience to authority is the enemy of the truth. - Albert Einstein

Become an internationalist and learn to respect all life. Make war on machines. And in particular the sterile machines of corporate death and the robots that guard them. -Abbie Hoffman

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism–how passionately I hate them! – Albert Einstein

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Patriotism is a menace to liberty. - Emma Goldman

Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. – John Dryden

A patriot is a fool in ev’ry age. – Alexander Pope.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. – Samuel Johnson

In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary, patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first. – Ambrose Bierce

Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen. – Ambrose Bierce

That pernicious sentiment, “Our country, right or wrong.” – James Russell Lowell

“My country right or wrong” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother drunk or sober.” – G. K. Chesterton

Patriotism which has the quality of intoxication is a danger not only to its native land but to the world, and “My country never wrong” is an even more dangerous maxim than “My country, right or wrong.” – Bertrand Russell

Patrioism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. – George Bernard Shaw

You’ll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is an ephemeral motive that scarcely ever outlasts the particular threat to society that aroused it. – Denis Diderot

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. – George Santayana

The Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations. – H.G. Wells

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. “Patriotism” is its cult. . . . Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one’s country which is not part of one’s love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. – Erich Fromm

One of the great attractions of patriotism–it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat, Bully and cheat, what’s more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous. – Aldous Huxley

Many studies have discovered a close link between prejudice and “patriotism” . . . Extreme bigots are almost always super-patriots – Gordon Allport

It seems like the less a statesman amounts to, the more he loves the flag. – Elbert Hubband

Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy. – William Inge

Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism corrupts history. – Goethe

Into the cultural and technological system of the modern world, the patriotic spirit fits like dust in the eyes and sand in the bearings. Its net contribution to the outcome is obscuration, distrust, and retardation at every point where it touches the fortunes of modern mankind. – Thorstein Veblen

The standardization of mass-production carries with it a tendency to standardize a mass-mind, producing a willing conformity, not merely to common ways of living, but to common ways of thinking and common valuations. The worst defect of patriotism is its tendency to foster and impose this common mind, and so to stifle the innumerable germs of liberty. – J.A. Hobson

2. Patriotism and War:

At the bottom of all patriotism is war: that is why I am no patriot. – Jules Renard

No other factor in history, not even religion, has produced so many wars as has the clash of national egotisms sanctified by the name of patriotism. – Preserved Smith

Naturally the common people don’t want war . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. – Hermann Goering.


3. Patriotism and Religion:

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. – Guy de Maupassant

God and Country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed. – Luis Buñuel

To be patriotic, hate all nations but your own; to be religious, all sects but your own; to be moral, all pretenses but your own. – Lionel Strachey

When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism! – David Starr Jordan

4. The American Syndrome:

If you have a weak candidate and a weak platform, wrap yourself up in the American flag and talk about the Constitution. – Matt Quay

How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be “American” before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, & having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries? It is really too easy a disguise for our shortcomings to dress them up as a form of patriotism. – Edith Wharton

The 100 percent American is 99 percent an idiot. – George Bernard Shaw

Treason is in the air around us everywhere. It goes by the name of patriotism. – Thomas Corwin

5. Three relatively positive assessments of patriotism:

A patriot is somebody who protects his country from his government. Or better yet: who has the guts to protect his country from its government. – Piotyr Dirk

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. – Thomas Jefferson

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Arrow 142 replies Author Time Post
Reply Patriotism is for fools! (Original post)
L0oniX Dec 2012 OP
BanTheGOP Dec 2012 #1
Taverner Dec 2012 #22
AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #72
Taverner Dec 2012 #127
Taverner Dec 2012 #2
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #3
whatchamacallit Dec 2012 #7
L0oniX Dec 2012 #33
hobbit709 Dec 2012 #42
L0oniX Dec 2012 #44
hobbit709 Dec 2012 #47
L0oniX Dec 2012 #61
hobbit709 Dec 2012 #86
RC Dec 2012 #70
L0oniX Dec 2012 #75
cali Dec 2012 #4
Puregonzo1188 Dec 2012 #5
L0oniX Dec 2012 #31
whatchamacallit Dec 2012 #6
fadedrose Dec 2012 #8
Douglas Carpenter Dec 2012 #9
Taverner Dec 2012 #20
L0oniX Dec 2012 #43
MindPilot Dec 2012 #62
tama Dec 2012 #87
L0oniX Dec 2012 #91
truebluegreen Dec 2012 #10
ileus Dec 2012 #11
Taverner Dec 2012 #16
L0oniX Dec 2012 #30
gasser85 Dec 2012 #51
Taverner Dec 2012 #124
Hugabear Dec 2012 #64
L0oniX Dec 2012 #68
Taverner Dec 2012 #123
OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #58
Squinch Dec 2012 #135
forestpath Dec 2012 #12
AZ Progressive Dec 2012 #13
Taverner Dec 2012 #18
LarryNM Dec 2012 #26
Crabby Appleton Dec 2012 #14
pinboy3niner Dec 2012 #19
billh58 Dec 2012 #56
great white snark Dec 2012 #108
AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #15
Taverner Dec 2012 #17
AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #24
Taverner Dec 2012 #27
L0oniX Dec 2012 #38
AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #63
Taverner Dec 2012 #122
AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #139
Taverner Dec 2012 #140
Taverner Dec 2012 #119
AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #49
L0oniX Dec 2012 #132
BanTheGOP Dec 2012 #28
AgingAmerican Dec 2012 #50
BanTheGOP Dec 2012 #73
Taverner Dec 2012 #128
L0oniX Dec 2012 #134
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #69
L0oniX Dec 2012 #77
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #98
Ikonoklast Dec 2012 #141
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #142
DeSwiss Dec 2012 #21
OnyxCollie Dec 2012 #23
pasto76 Dec 2012 #25
L0oniX Dec 2012 #29
pinboy3niner Dec 2012 #32
L0oniX Dec 2012 #34
pinboy3niner Dec 2012 #67
L0oniX Dec 2012 #71
pinboy3niner Dec 2012 #89
JoeyT Dec 2012 #53
Nevernose Dec 2012 #117
Rex Dec 2012 #35
L0oniX Dec 2012 #36
Rex Dec 2012 #37
L0oniX Dec 2012 #39
Rex Dec 2012 #41
L0oniX Dec 2012 #45
Rex Dec 2012 #46
L0oniX Dec 2012 #59
Rex Dec 2012 #78
L0oniX Dec 2012 #88
Rex Dec 2012 #131
WHEN CRABS ROAR Dec 2012 #40
davidn3600 Dec 2012 #48
Brigid Dec 2012 #52
patrice Dec 2012 #54
cbrer Dec 2012 #55
patrice Dec 2012 #57
Brigid Dec 2012 #66
L0oniX Dec 2012 #74
patrice Dec 2012 #80
OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #60
L0oniX Dec 2012 #65
Brigid Dec 2012 #76
L0oniX Dec 2012 #82
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #85
Brigid Dec 2012 #105
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #115
Brigid Dec 2012 #121
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #79
Rex Dec 2012 #81
L0oniX Dec 2012 #94
Rex Dec 2012 #95
L0oniX Dec 2012 #101
Rex Dec 2012 #107
L0oniX Dec 2012 #111
Rex Dec 2012 #125
L0oniX Dec 2012 #129
Rex Dec 2012 #130
L0oniX Dec 2012 #92
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #109
Arctic Dave Dec 2012 #118
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #137
atreides1 Dec 2012 #93
Rex Dec 2012 #96
Hekate Dec 2012 #83
Rex Dec 2012 #84
Hekate Dec 2012 #97
Rex Dec 2012 #100
L0oniX Dec 2012 #99
Hekate Dec 2012 #102
hobbit709 Dec 2012 #103
Rex Dec 2012 #104
L0oniX Dec 2012 #110
Rex Dec 2012 #112
L0oniX Dec 2012 #113
Rex Dec 2012 #120
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #138
tama Dec 2012 #90
L0oniX Dec 2012 #106
NoOneMan Dec 2012 #114
L0oniX Dec 2012 #116
whatchamacallit Dec 2012 #126
burrowowl Dec 2012 #133
L0oniX Dec 2012 #136

Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:55 PM

1. A real "patriot" flies the United Nations flag

 

The American flag, as a patriotic device, is about as divisive and reppressionist as any flag in history. In fact, in the hands of an average rethug, an American Flag is more divisive, more despicable, and frankly, more oppressive than any other similar blind obediance in the history of the planet. A rethug is more despicable than a German Nazi, a follower of Ghengis Khan, or an original plunderer in the "New World Discovery" era.

Bottom line: We MUST rid ourselves of the republican party and render America into a progressive, peaceful force for good in the world. That must first start with renunciation of the American flag as a patriotic device, and make it as shameful to proudly wave as the Confederate Stars and Bars, or the German / GW Bush Swastika.

PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT DISSING people who fly the flag in honor of family members or other people whom they share a familial bond with. I'm sure there are many of us here who are not fond of people telling us what we should and shouldn't patronize (which is verb form, after all, of patriot). But when I see it used by rethugs, the only comparison I see is that of Nazism, and to that extent, my enunciation holds forth and I won't back off from that aspect.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:32 PM

22. I am sick of flags and coats of arms

 

Sick of weapons, guns, tanks, borders, guards, surveillance, wiretapping all in the name of "DEMOCRACY"

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Response to Taverner (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:58 PM

72. The UN exists as an alternative to war

n/t

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #72)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:13 PM

127. I have no problem with the UN

 

But someone pointing at a piece of cloth and saying "that's me! right there, that is what I am about!" scares me

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 04:19 PM

2. Absolutely.

 

I am amazed at how many bull moose loony fools are here on DU

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 04:20 PM

3. I LOVE the "Trash this Thread" button.

 

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 04:32 PM

7. I know, what a list of whiny purists

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:01 PM

33. ...

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:20 PM

42. so which one represents you?

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #42)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:23 PM

44. Oh snap! Aren't you a smart one. pffft

Do you miss high school?

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #44)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:27 PM

47. I didn't miss it when I graduated in 1968 and I don't miss it now.

Looked in a mirror lately?

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #47)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:50 PM

61. Since you don't wish to reasonable discuss anything here why don't you go trash this thread too.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #61)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:10 PM

86. I have never trashed a thread

But you remind me of a Fleetwood Mac song.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:55 PM

70. There is one missing -

 

Do no evil.

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Response to RC (Reply #70)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:00 PM

75. +1 ...and love Jimmy C.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 04:21 PM

4. I've never been stirred by patriotism

but I think like most "isms" it cuts both ways.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 04:28 PM

5. You forgot Emma Goldman--"Patriotism is a menace to liberty."

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Response to Puregonzo1188 (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:51 PM

31. Adding. Thanks.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 04:30 PM

6. An eternal truth rejected by many DUers thanks to

This

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 04:33 PM

8. What is the eternal truth?

I don't get it or the picture. Some of us patriots are kinda stupid.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 04:38 PM

9. I totally agree with this poster - But I would not post this myself

I realize that this might be too much reality for a lot of people. I find it so strange that religion bashing is acceptable in many liberal/left circles -but nationalism bashing is not - even though the grave evils of patriotism and nationalism obviously cause far more harm to the world of the 20th and 21st century than religion. In fact when religion is cheering on atrocities - it is usually doing it as the legitimizer of nationalism or ethno-tribalism. So, I being the sort that would prefer not to offend - I would not make it a habit to bash patriotism - But I can not censor something simply because it is true.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:30 PM

20. Exactly - I did it and the consequences are rough

 

Thuggish military worshippers get in your face.

America is a nation brainwashed into nationalism.

Knowing history, that never turns out well.

And the perfectly normal person four years later wonders why he is now gunning down his neighbors and friends.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:21 PM

43. I love the military grunt psych that is being used to argue any point.

One of my closer friends was an army drill sarge. We used to laugh about the psych used on newbs. In reality it is pretty sad.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #43)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:50 PM

62. I can relate to that one--I fell for it completely.

I came from a very white background where the n-word was routine and all the stereotypes were the perceived reality.

10 weeks of Navy bootcamp totally cleansed me of racism and I accepted my Black shipmates as brothers in arms. But man we hated them motherfuckin' gooks!

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Response to Taverner (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:10 PM

87. Hmm

 

To all who leave patriotism and tribalism etc. divisions behind: welcome to humanity, welcome to the world of life.

By "abandoning" your earlier community that you were born and raised into, you are not abandoning anything, but joining a much larger community.

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Response to tama (Reply #87)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:13 PM

91. Nice.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 04:59 PM

10. Bookmarking. nt

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:03 PM

11. God Bless America.

100% proud American here...

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Response to ileus (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:24 PM

16. Are you proud of our involvement in:

 

Bay of Pigs Invasion
Dominican Intervention
Vietnam War
Grenada
Beirut
Panama
Gulf War
Somalia
Yugoslavia
War on Terrorism (2001–present)
Afghanistan
Philippines
Liberia
Iraq

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Response to Taverner (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:50 PM

30. Pride precedes the downfall.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:31 PM

51. Don't forget Laos

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Response to gasser85 (Reply #51)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:12 PM

124. Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma, Malaysia and Indonesia

 

Very true

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Response to Taverner (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:52 PM

64. Each and every one of those was necessary to preserve freedom

What are you, a goddamned commie pinko bastard?

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #64)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:54 PM

68. LMAO n/t

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #64)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:11 PM

123. LOL

 

Taking out democratically elected Arbenz GAVE US FREDUMB!

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Response to ileus (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:45 PM

58. Amen, brother! +1

 

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Response to ileus (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:21 PM

135. I'm with you. Saying you are patriotic does not necessarily mean espousing, "my country right or

wrong." I consider myself patriotic in that I love my country, my home, and will work as hard as I can to make it better, however I can, all my life.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:04 PM

12. K&R

 

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:14 PM

13. Which is why American Corporations made China rich and claim to be above U.S. laws

They don't see themselves as Americans anymore, in fact the movie "Network" from 1976 spells it out plainly:



The Corporate Establishment abandoned patriotism a long time ago. Not that that is any good, but we are seeing the consequences of it nowadays as they are destroying America and selling it off piece by piece.

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Response to AZ Progressive (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:27 PM

18. When people say "America is Number 1" I always ask "Number 1 at what?"

 

No one has been able to give me one positive reason we are #1

So far, the only thing we are #1 at is locking up people, and killing people

I am not proud of that

Are you?

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Response to AZ Progressive (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:40 PM

26. That Movie and That particular Segment

Can think of no other that better stated the reality of the world.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:17 PM

14. Unrec

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Response to Crabby Appleton (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:28 PM

19. With you there, brother. nt

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Response to Crabby Appleton (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:41 PM

56. +100

Last edited Mon Dec 31, 2012, 11:46 AM - Edit history (1)

The anti-American garbage is thick on DU these days.

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Response to Crabby Appleton (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:36 PM

108. As do I.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:24 PM

15. What you describe is nationalism, not patriotism

Nationalism is rooted in arrogance. Patriotism is rooted in pride. HUGE difference.

I am patriotic, not nationalistic.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:26 PM

17. The are one and the same

 

I'm not trying to be snarky, insulting or cruel but they are the same thing, we just call it Patriotism when we do it, and Nationalism when they do it.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:35 PM

24. No they aren't

I am patriotic, but not nationalistic.

Nationalism is unity based upon culture, including language and heritage. Patriotism pertains to the love for a nation, with more emphasis on values and beliefs.

Patriotism is rooted in affection for country and nationalism is based on arrogance fueled rivalry and resentment.

Nationalism is militant and patriotism is peaceful.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:46 PM

27. Nationalism is not always militant

 

And patriotism (if you are to believe our founding fathers) is not always peaceful

Nationalism and Patriotism are interchangeable in America. That's where that whole "Barack Obama is not an American" BS came from.

I am neither - I love my species first, not my nation

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Response to Taverner (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:15 PM

38. To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. – George Santayana

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #38)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:51 PM

63. What about culture?

My patriotism is cultural, not geographical. Does this mean I have sold my soul?

Cultural values:

The constitution, the right to privacy, multiculturalism, Football, baseball, diversity, acceptance of cultures outside the mainstream, work ethic, American informality and optimism, a former slavery country that votes in an African American president ...etc. etc.

These things make up my patriotism, not war or "my country right or wrong".

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #63)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:10 PM

122. None of that is specifically "American"

 

Multiculturalism is alive and well elsewhere, lately we have kind of LOST our right to privacy, etc....

This is why never bought the "American Exceptionalism" argument

Of course, you will lose it to if you live overseas for some time

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Response to Taverner (Reply #122)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:19 PM

139. It doesn't have to be exclusively American

We have been losing our right to privacy because RW nationalism has been creeping into our culture for the past 30 years, especially since 911.

American exceptionalism is a nationalistic, ideological concept. Ideologies suck, generally.

I have been all over the world. We travel constantly. You are right there. The US government is reviled overseas, especially when Republicans are in office. If you have traveled a lot you know this line, "I love Americans, but can't stand your government".

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #139)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:22 PM

140. Yes, I know that all too well

 

And more than not, I am outright ASHAMED at my government

Even under Clinton, I remember apologizing for Clinton's strikes on Iraq during the Lewinsky hearings

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #38)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:08 PM

119. ^---------------- What he said

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:29 PM

49. Nationalism imposes, patriotism is passive

Nationalism vs Patriotism

Nationalism is conservative and patriotism is liberal

Most nationalists assume that their country is better than any other, whereas patriots believe that their country is one of the best and can be improved in many ways. Patriots tend to believe in friendly relations with other countries while some nationalists don’t.

In patriotism, people all over the world are considered equal but nationalism implies that only the people belonging to one’s own country should be considered one’s equal.

A patriotic person tends to tolerate criticism and tries to learn something new from it, but a nationalist cannot tolerate any criticism and considers it an insult.

Nationalism makes one to think only of one’s country’s virtues and not its deficiencies. Nationalism can also make one contemptuous of the virtues of other nations. Patriotism, on the other hand, pertains to value responsibilities rather than just valuing loyalty towards one’s own country.

http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-nationalism-and-patriotism

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #49)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:18 PM

132. "a nationalist cannot tolerate any criticism and considers it an insult" ...and you can see that...

in this thread.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:46 PM

28. The problem is that rethugs would say that their "values and beliefs" are valid

 

...and therefore, that they would actually agree with your sentiment. That is why one cannot be patriotic WITHOUT being nationalistic, and both, by definition, exclude other people, which is the complete repudiation of progressive values.

Bottom line: Nationalists AND patriots can NOT be progressives. And the Democratic Party is the home of the American progressive party; therefore, we should start migrating away from the US flag to that of a more inclusive beacon. While the UN flag itself is not necessarily the ultimate beason, it is as representative of our progressive movement as we have, and I'll gladly honor that flag far sooner than the US flag.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:31 PM

50. You can be patriotic without being nationalistic

I am patriotic, but not nationalistic. I am also highly progressive. Please explain me.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #50)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:58 PM

73. Let me try to explain it again.

 

While everyone may have a different sense of patriotism in how it should be "defined," I think the most important aspect is this: What would a TRUE progressive want? In my case, to be one who sticks to my values means I value life and individual security more than I do national identity. The conventional definition of patriotism is, in fact, an adherence to national identity. Now, one may fudge the lines a bit and say, well I'm patriotic to my PROGRESSIVE values, but that's not entirely fair. When most people are asked about how they define patriotism, most think it in the context of "my country is #1! USA! USA! USA!" which, of course, infers that "EVERYONE ELSE SUCKS!! USA! USA! USA!" When that occurs, patriotism is shown its true basis in exclusionary tactics, the same exclusion that festers the reasons for racism, sexism, classism, anti-environmentalism, and other GOP-based tenets.

I, for one, cannot be proud of my country for all the damage it has inflicted on the vast majority of humanity around the world. So how can I be "patriotic?" I literally do not know how to put patriotism and humanity in the same circle, so that's where I come from.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #73)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:14 PM

128. I wish I could rec this...

 

+10000

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #73)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:21 PM

134. +1000000000 This deserves to have its own op.

Thank you for some meaningful input.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:54 PM

69. Agree 100%. Nationalism gets you the Third Reich. Those who fought for the US against....

....the Third Reich were Patriots.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #69)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:03 PM

77. Interesting Hermann Goering quote...

Naturally the common people don’t want war . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. – Hermann Goering.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #77)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:24 PM

98. Just curious, but who do you believe started WWII? nt.


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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #98)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:41 PM

141. The victorious Allied Powers that imposed the Treaty of Versailles on a vanquished Germany.

That treaty all but insured another European war within a generation.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #141)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:31 AM

142. Ohhhh, we're going to play that game are we?....

...How far back do you want to go? How about the Franco-Prussian War of 1870? Or the British-French wars of the 1700s-1800s?

How about we call it like it really was and just admit that Hitler and the Nazis started WWII?

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:30 PM

21. K&R


''....and they shall beat their swords into
plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more.''

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:34 PM

23. Why do you hate 'Merica?

Back to back World War champs and bestest country God ever created.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:39 PM

25. ah some true colors of a liberal here

I wish I could find refreshment in honesty, but this smacks of the same old 'never been there but know more than anyone' bullshit.


OP has taken some good comments about the American person, and is trying to use it to justify trashing everything about anyone.

but someday he'll realize that the comfort and safety of his living room from which he collects these sayings, has been made safe over the decades and centuries by people actually wearing the uniform. Currently .02% of the population.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:48 PM

29. Military grunt psych.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:01 PM

32. Military grunts know--and do--some pretty amazing things

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:06 PM

34. Operators of just another death machine.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:54 PM

67. In my time, others with AK-47 death machines were trying to kill me

I used an M-16 to protect my life and the lives of others...

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #67)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:57 PM

71. ...and now our country is friends with them.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #71)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:12 PM

89. As am I

I always loved the Vietnamese people. Out in the jungle, when I ran into woodcutters who weren't supposed to be there in the free fire zone, I'd stop and talk to them and sing them a popular Vietnamese song. They'd roll on the ground laughing, and then we'd be off on our separate ways.

I've returned to Vietnam on several month-long trips, living with the people even in a 10' x 10' hovel in Cholon. I've sat at dinner and laughed--and cried--together with other former combatants from the ARVN, the NVA, and the Viet Cong. We have more in common than our respective countrymen, who often don't seem to get it...

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:39 PM

53. Yeah, that argument always gets trotted out.

Strangely it only applies to the military, not to say the guy that created the polio vaccine or the guy that discovered penicillin or the man or woman that wired up your house. Only the military are special.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:03 PM

117. We'd all be speaking Vietnamese right now

If it weren't for the marines? Please tell me who, precisely, the military has protected my freedoms from in the last century or so.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:06 PM

35. Then I guess you are calling the Founding Fathers fools.

Extremism is just that.

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Response to Rex (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:10 PM

36. You can argue with every one of those quotes from fools.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #36)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:14 PM

37. No I will stick with the Founding Fathers and their patriotism

maybe not you, you wish we were all still British?

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Response to Rex (Reply #37)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:16 PM

39. Got any quotes from them that you are sticking with?

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:20 PM

41. No thanks I don't need a blurb from somebody else

to attach my entire being to. Your extremism is your own doing. Enjoy it.

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Response to Rex (Reply #41)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:25 PM

45. So you got nothing ...as I thought.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #45)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:26 PM

46. Thought?

Don't see any but blurbs that you didn't think up just C&P into a post. Maybe next time though huh?

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Response to Rex (Reply #46)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:46 PM

59. I have reasons for what I believe ...unlike some people.

I form some of my reasons from considering what others have said who may be wiser than I. History and the wisdom and the lessons learned are of great value to some and worthless to others. Obviously these quotes are of no value to you but then maybe you are offended by them ...so you attack me. Maybe these quotes put what you think or believe to shame ...and so you strike back at me for them. You are free to quote what you use to form your opinions too but you choose not to ...and that pretty much says to me that you have no real basis for your belief concerning this subject.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #59)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:04 PM

78. As I thought...you have nothing. (bleh)

Took you long enough and is rather disappointing with the old canards thrown in there.

Your thread title makes you look foolish or naive, sorry if that hurt your feelings.

You obviously have no clue what the difference is between patriotism and nationalism.

How sad.

Maybe you should read some of those quotes you just googled real fast to stir up shit?

Nah you probably won't even do that.

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Response to Rex (Reply #78)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:12 PM

88. LMAO ...you sitill have nothing but return with what is IMO a childish attack.

You obviously have no desire to have an honest discussion about patriotism so why bother responding?

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #88)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:18 PM

131. Because you got caught shit stirring and cannot admit to it.

You have NOT once tried to have any kind of conversation and I believe your post is just more of the same old flamebait. Why do you keep replying? Because you know I am right and cannot stand it.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:17 PM

40. Adopt a New Years revolution!

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:29 PM

48. "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious" -Oscar Wilde

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:32 PM

52. Maybe this is what LOoniX has in mind:

[link:http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html| Or check out "The Third Reich" on H2 right now.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:40 PM

54. My Dad, a labor leader in his own right, used to talk about patriotism & criticism at the

family dinner table.

He came out of a poor family from Arkansas by way of Oklahoma & was highly influenced by a populist social-justice preaching Catholic priest during his young married years while he worked in the oil-refineries in SE Kansas.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:40 PM

55. But! As religion...useful!

 

By our masters to control the weak minded.

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Response to cbrer (Reply #55)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:43 PM

57. That's called American Exceptionalism & it implemented, through Evangelicals mostly, the war on Iraq

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Response to patrice (Reply #57)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:53 PM

66. Ah, "American exceptionalism"

That's nationalism, and it's a crock.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #66)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:59 PM

74. IMO "American exceptionalism" is just another form of racism.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #66)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:04 PM

80. And a religious crock at that & I'm not necessarily against religion that is honest about what it is

Not so the religion known as American Exceptionalism, especially for how it bastardizes authentic (flexible) strength in the name of pseudo-patriotism that is really much more like fascism than anything else.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:50 PM

60. Feel free to leave.

 

The taxes you pay support the most powerful and far reaching empire the world has ever known. Might as well just leave and put your convictions into action.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #60)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:52 PM

65. Love it or get out but don't try to change it. I get your message.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #60)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:01 PM

76. There's where you're wrong.

A powerful empire doesn't make a country great. If you want to measure the "greatness" of any country, ask yourself this: How are its people doing? How do they treat one another, especially the least among them? In short, what kind of people are they? We do not do well when measured by these questions these days. We can't even deal with a Black Friday sale without losing our minds.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #76)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:06 PM

82. If only the majority of the US people thought this way. n/t

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Response to Brigid (Reply #76)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:09 PM

85. Maybe you should take a look at the greatest empires throughout history....

....and take a look at how they treated their own people as well as how they treated the people they subjugated.

Once you're done, let me know how we compare.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #85)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:30 PM

105. You mean . . .

The Patriot Act, increasing child poverty, guns everywhere, Citizens United, foreclosures,.falling wages, lousy schools, college kids graduating with piles of debt . . . I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #105)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:01 PM

115. You mean the Han Dynasty, the Mongols, the Romans, the Ottomans,....

...the Byzantines, the British, the Russians....how did these empires treat their citizens and the people they enslaved?

I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #115)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:10 PM

121. We're headed down the same path.

Some just refuse to see it. I have no faith in a people who can't even deal with a Black Friday sale anymore. When we start dealing with problems like poverty, health care, environmental degradation, gun control, and education in realistic ways, maybe then I'll change my mind. But not until.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:04 PM

79. What's the real point of your post? Is your intent to be as divisive as possible and piss off....

....those of us who have served in the military at one time or another and consider ourselves to be Progressives/Liberals/Democrats?





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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #79)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:05 PM

81. Standard operating procedure for the thread starter imo.

Gets mad that he doesn't know the difference between nationalism and patriotism. Has no clue.

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Response to Rex (Reply #81)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:20 PM

94. LMAO "Gets mad"

Yea ...and all those quotes are from people who have or had "no clue" too. Seems that you are one getting angry bud ...and now your crawling the thread with IMO your lame immature insults?

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #94)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:22 PM

95. Just pointing out that you didn't actually read what you posted.

Keep trying to pretend this is about 'those people and their quotes'. You didn't even read them!

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Response to Rex (Reply #95)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:27 PM

101. I've had that list for years. You are not here to discuss anything.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #101)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:31 PM

107. Ah projection...

thanks for pointing out your objective!

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Response to Rex (Reply #107)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:50 PM

111. Your objective is obvious. IMO you are unable to have a decent discussion over the topic.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #111)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:12 PM

125. This from the guy that started the thread with 'patriotism is for fools!'

It is simply amazing that you cannot accept that you've been caught making DU suck!

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Response to Rex (Reply #125)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:15 PM

129. Hmmm 44 recs

...must be someone else making DU suck.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #129)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:16 PM

130. 44 people like your quotes!

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #79)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:17 PM

92. You might as well ask why those quotes exist in the first place.

We all have our sources and wisdom that we learn from.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #92)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:39 PM

109. Let's see how Merriam-Webster defines Nationalism and Patriotism....

Nationalism:

Loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.


Patriotism:

Love for or devotion to one's country.


Do you see the difference or does that put a damper on your little rant?

Yes, we all have our sources of and wisdom from which we learn, but critical thinking and balance needs to be applied to all that we learn.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #109)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:06 PM

118. Umm, you do realize that both of your definitions use the phrase,

 

"devotion to (a)one's nation"?

It would seem everything else is splitting frog hair.

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #118)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:59 PM

137. It's a major f'ing hair. If you can't see that, then there's nothing else to say. nt.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #79)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:20 PM

93. It could be the intent

Perhaps the ultra-liberal progressives want a purer DU...one without members who are gun owners or have served in the military!

And seeing how much the "adminstrators" have done, perhaps they agree with the premise!

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #93)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:23 PM

96. 'ultra-liberal progressives'

This thread is GOLD!

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:07 PM

83. Guard against the impostures of PRETENDED patriotism. – George Washington

Dissent is the HIGHEST FORM OF patriotism. – Thomas Jefferson

Your two final quotations do not say that patriotism does not exist nor that patriotism is for fools.

My love of country was tattered by 8 years of George W. Bush-Cheney-Rove. But it is still my country, and does not belong to them and their ilk.

My earliest ancestor landed here about 1620; my husband was born in Europe and immigrated as a child. This is OUR land and YOURS, but I take it ill to be called a fool by those who have given up.

Hekate

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Response to Hekate (Reply #83)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:08 PM

84. Don't start, that would require the thread starter

to actually have READ some of those quotes!

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Response to Rex (Reply #84)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:23 PM

97. Oh yeah

Thanks for getting it

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Response to Hekate (Reply #97)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:25 PM

100. Well you know how Jefferson and Washington HATED

those darn patriots!

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Response to Hekate (Reply #83)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:25 PM

99. "Your two final quotations" are not mine but I do like them.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #99)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:27 PM

102. 'Scuse? They're in your OP. Last two lines of your OP.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #102)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:29 PM

103. Proof that the purpose was to agitate the feces container instead of a discussion.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #102)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:29 PM

104. Yes BUT those two are different you see

er um sputter...from all the rest! GOLD!

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Response to Hekate (Reply #102)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:43 PM

110. They are not "my" quotes but quotes from the sources. Was there something you wanted to discuss..

about the source authors? What's the point of trying to make those quotes out to be mine? Clearly they are from others who are IMO much wiser than some of the posters who have responded with insults. IMO if anyone has to insult others when they disagree it only shows that they lack the intelligence to debate the subject. I welcome a discussion on the pros or cons of patriotism.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #110)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:51 PM

112. OH!? Then why did you start a thread with 'patriotism is for fools!'

GREAT way to start off a fair exchange of ideas! NOT. I mean, you make this too easy...I think all you wanted to do is stir the shit a little.

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Response to Rex (Reply #112)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:57 PM

113. IMO all you have done is stir shit. If you even read the quotes you would see the same...

patriotism is for fools ...mentioned ...along with many other quotes not referring to fools. As I have said before ...you are not here to discuss anything ...IMO you are only responding to insult. Would you be happy to have DU be nothing but a group of people insulting those they disagree with? Thanks for helping to make it be that way.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #113)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:08 PM

120. You are right, I am only responding to insult (by you).

Again you have nothing but empty air...

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #113)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:03 PM

138. You're the person who started this crap with an insulting post. Deal with it. nt.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:12 PM

90. Here's my question

 

Shouldn't we expect and demand that our communities, nation states etc., behave according to the same ethical standards we try to teach our children?

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Response to tama (Reply #90)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:31 PM

106. IMO ...most children will see the hypocrisy eventually.

I have a problem with the idea of teaching children that it is wrong to kill but them find justification to go to war and kill. The problem doesn't seem resolvable.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:59 PM

114. "Patriotism is the McDonalds of human thought" - Me

 

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Response to NoOneMan (Reply #114)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:02 PM

116. LMAO ...That's some deep shit.

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:12 PM

126. Flags are bits of colored cloth

that governments use first to shrink-wrap people's brains and then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead. - Arundhati Roy

Lots of shrink wrapped brains on DU. :/

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Response to L0oniX (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:20 PM

133. That pernicious sentiment, “Our country, right or wrong.” – James Russell Lowell

However the rest of the statement is "when wrong to be made right".
Which of course is never cited.

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Response to burrowowl (Reply #133)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:26 PM

136. Well yea but then there is this one...

“My country right or wrong” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother drunk or sober.” – G. K. Chesterton

This brings in a more proper definition of the use of the word patriot where a patriot would be willing to use some introspect and examine the truth of the matter rather than maybe go with the flow.

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