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Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:24 AM

As a teacher,

I wouldn't want a gun. It is a false sense of security, and the possibility of a horrible tragedy are infinite.

As has been pointed out, there were armed guards at Columbine. They tried but weren't able to stop it. In addition, some of the shooters are wearing body armor. Good luck with that head shot.

Unless you are really going to arm somebody, a person bent on causing destruction armed with what a lot of the shooters have carried, you will be outgunned.

I wish I had a good answer. There are armed guards in schools, but they are there for helping deal with a lot of situations that don't involve shooting everything in sight. They would be hard pressed to handle a homicidal maniac armed with a Bushmaster.

The teachers who are getting training are getting a one time lesson. They might react better and faster with a gun. They also might freeze or shoot anything that moves. You have now increased the possibility of people getting shot by a lot.

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Arrow 33 replies Author Time Post
Reply As a teacher, (Original post)
Are_grits_groceries Dec 2012 OP
liberal N proud Dec 2012 #1
ewagner Dec 2012 #2
loyalkydem Dec 2012 #3
TexasProgresive Dec 2012 #4
Are_grits_groceries Dec 2012 #5
Berserker Dec 2012 #6
Are_grits_groceries Dec 2012 #12
appleannie1 Dec 2012 #27
Smarmie Doofus Dec 2012 #7
obxhead Dec 2012 #11
reteachinwi Dec 2012 #8
obxhead Dec 2012 #9
TatonkaJames Dec 2012 #10
Sedona Dec 2012 #13
Glassunion Dec 2012 #20
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #14
TatonkaJames Dec 2012 #22
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #26
TruthTeller Dec 2012 #15
NashuaDW Dec 2012 #16
lunatica Dec 2012 #18
bhikkhu Dec 2012 #19
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #25
Are_grits_groceries Dec 2012 #28
Remmah2 Dec 2012 #17
LiberalArkie Dec 2012 #21
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #23
LWolf Dec 2012 #24
doc03 Dec 2012 #29
old guy Dec 2012 #30
Martin Eden Dec 2012 #31
immoderate Dec 2012 #32
Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #33

Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:32 AM

1. No one knows how they would react in a life threatening situation.

No one knows what they would do if a gun was pointed at them until it happens.

If one carries a gun, they have to be able to process the thought of taking another life even when their own is being threatened.

I would think packing a gun would also make you a target in a situation. If the shooter knows the teacher has a gun, they will shoot them first.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:35 AM

2. I went to a local gun shop

with a friend who believes he has to carry a gun for "self-defense". (more on that later)

but while he was busy with one clerk/owner, I talked to another and the conversation was actually refreshing.

I asked about "self-defense" importance and he said that our area Wisconsin isn't exactly a high risk area and the need to arm yourself every time you leave the house isn't truly necessary. He asked me if I noticed that neither he nor any of the other employees were armed in the store...they weren't...he said that if somebody came in to rob the place, the first thing they would do would be to "take out" the threats...anybody carrying a gun...hence they didn't want to make themselves targets.

I'm thinking that on school property, any maniac with a desire to commit mayhem would look for the armed persons first.....but on the other hand...the people doing these shootings at schools are not RATIONAL people anyway. We have two school resource officers on duty in our schools: one at the high school and one at the Jr. High...would they be out-gunned in an emergency? Would they be able to stop a massacre? I don't know but I would rather see school resource officers carrying a gun than the teachers.

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Response to ewagner (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:49 AM

3. Great post, highly rec

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:11 AM

4. I have the highest respect for teachers

However teachers are human and some humans do horrid things. If teachers are encouraged to be armed what's to stop the teacher who "snaps" and takes out years of frustration on students in a locked classroom?

I don't believe the teachers I know would do such a thing but I can remember a few from my youth who were on the edge.

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Response to TexasProgresive (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:18 AM

5. I agree.

Said that yesterday. One teacher on their last nerve could snap.
Someone pointed out some teachers might use them to get their students attention. That I nelieve.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:40 AM

6. Here is a article that has a

 

Different perspective.

Utah Teachers Flock to Gun Training

The perception of schools as sanctuaries from violence has been "blown up" by recent events and some believe it's time for educators to literally take the situation into their own hands and carry guns.

"We've had this unwritten code, even among criminals, that schools are off limits. Those are our kids. You don't mess with that," Utah Shooting Sports Council (USSC) Chairman Clark Aposhian told ABCNews.com today.

"That perception has been blown away now," he said. "It's been shattered and if there's one thing that parents across the country are united on, it's that they are committed to and serious about protecting their kids."

Aposhian spoke shortly before opening a weapons training class for teachers and school employees that drew more than 200 Utah educators organized by the USSC, a leading gun lobby group that believes that teachers should be able to fight back when faced with an armed intruder.
http://gma.yahoo.com/utah-teachers-flock-gun-training-180238605--abc-news-topstories.html

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Response to Berserker (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:21 AM

12. Did you read what I wrote in the OP?

Unless those teachers really know what they are doing, it could turn into a hot mess.

A maniac with true homicidal intent is a different breed. It isn't easy to shoot someone, much less shoot them effectively. A shot sounds. Here come the teachers. Some may meet the person head on and some may barricade their classes and use it as a last resort.

They are all scared shitless and have never been near this type of trouble. They don't train or shoot at gun ranges like police officers. If the shooter has a Bushmaster or something similar, they are outgunned.

Having a lot of guns around with people who are nervous about it isn't a good scenario. Then there are the little darlings. Some of those students will push about the guns and others will try to figure out where they are and steal them.

Arming teachers is not any type of guarantee of really stopping anything. It will give them a sense of security that isn't real.

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Response to TexasProgresive (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:02 AM

27. I had a teacher that had a complete breakdown in school. She was hospitalized in a mental ward

for months. Teachers are human. They have human failings and work under more stress than some other jobs create.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:43 AM

7. Where is this coming from?

It's the dumbest idea I've ever heard of.

Is this seriously being contemplated by the Obama DOE?

It's the craziest thing I've seen yet. And I've seen a lot of *crazy* in the last four years.

Jesus.

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:21 AM

11. From the wrong side.

They do control Congress however, so their insanity must be observed, debunked, and squashed like a bug if possible.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:57 AM

8. The track coach

 

at the school where my mom taught lost control of himself and fired the track starting gun in his classroom to regain control. We all know how badly wrong things can go in a classroom in spite of our best efforts. BRAD BLOG had the following video on his website.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D8QjZY3WiO9s

I think arming teachers is desperate and misguided.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:19 AM

9. The answer to a lone nut with a gun is not more people with guns.

Like you I don't know the answer. I do however realize that more people with guns entangled in a gun fight is not it.

If the answer was a gun fight, every hostage situation would begin with teams storming the building with guns a blazin'. That's not how it's done though, things are always started with negotiations. The hostile shootout is always the LAST resort.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:19 AM

10. Why arming teachers is insane

OK, so we arm teachers. Lets put a guard at each school. These people mental but they know what they're doing. So instead of the school itself they board one or two of the buses dropping off the kids. So then what ? Arm the school bus drivers ? Then the mall security guards ? Good luck with that, or the theaters ? Pretty soon every where you go there's someone armed who is on high alert in case something happens. Armed presence at schools is not the answer.
I'm not sure what I'm about to say is true, but back in the 1950's and 1960's when I was disciplined for what I did wrong at home and school, I learned right from wrong quickly. And I don't remember this stuff happening back then except in Vietnam when some guy freaked out. Now they have time out for kids ?
I take the train to NY every few months. At the last stop I wonder, who's going to stop someone from boarding and blowing us all away ? So where does it end ?
Perhaps if we just tried, or took a look at other countries and what they did to stop or lower their crime and mass killings, maybe we'd learn something ? No, not us, we're the USA, we know everything and we're better at knowing it.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:54 AM

13. What's to stop the SWAT team that inevitably arrives from mistaking the teachers

for bad guys with guns and shooting them?

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Response to Sedona (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:37 AM

20. The same thing that prevents them from raiding the wrong house and shooting unarmed innocents.

Nothing.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:13 AM

14. A friend just posted this on Facebook:

For everyone who's all het up about increasing armed security in public places like schools: Remember the shooter at the Empire State Building a few months back? The police showed up to protect the public and ended in a shoot-out with a guy. Nine bystanders were wounded -- all at the hands of the police. And these cops weren't a bunch of Barney Fifes, either. They were highly-trained NYC police officers. Now replace those officers, who are highly-trained, well-practiced, and mentally prepared, with a bunch of armed civilians. What could *possibly* go wrong ? o.O


Good point, I think.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:39 AM

22. Two were killed and 8 wounded

Therein lies the problem with armed citizens.
A state police academy did a study with college students, many who were already trained in firearms. After training they were out in a real life scenario in a classroom. Each failed to shoot the gunman entering the class and they were sot themselves. then they threw in a twist, had another student who was in on it with the intruder sitting among them start firing. Total chaos.
Imagine the carnage in a crowed theater if multiple gunmen came from front and rear ?
There's too many dimensions to this problem. Too many guns, not enough evaluation for registry and a mental illness, societal problem.

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Response to TatonkaJames (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:51 AM

26. Yep. There's just absolutely no way that throwing more armed people into the mix

will result in fewer shootings.

And in a school? An absolute nightmare scenario. Horrible idea.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:14 AM

15. I agree...

I have tried to explain to people (who have no idea what I do) that in a classroom, I am the only person. My district had lockdown drills per state law. We just had one on Nov. 27th. It went well. I could not imagine leaving my students to "protect" them or better yet, shooting someone in front of an 8 year old. They know I would give my life to protect them and I would, yet getting my gun to kill someone is a different story. I really am not paid enough to be everything for students and a security guard too. I never complain about my salary.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:21 AM

16. Bad Comparison

The Columbine shooters were outside the school shooting at students as they exited the building. In retrospect, they would have been much safer inside.

We protect airplanes with ARMED air marshalls.
We protect banks with ARMED guards.
We protect armored cars with ARMED guards.
We protect the President with ARMED secret service agents.

Just a few other things to consider.

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Response to NashuaDW (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:30 AM

18. Can you tell the difference between those and a school, a church, a mall or a movie theatre?

And most banks don't use armed guards anymore. They use surveillance.

Your comparison is bad.

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Response to NashuaDW (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:35 AM

19. Bad comparison. When was the last time you saw an armed guard at a bank?

There haven't been any for many years, as it was found that guns lead to shooting and then people die. Armed guards greatly increase the chances of accidents, unintended deaths, and generally increase the level of violence. Much like the brutal police response to drug smuggling on the US border led to something of an arms race there, and gradually raised the level of violence to a fever pitch - both against the police and between the smuggling operations themselves.

I'd agree to some extent - there aren't really any good comparisons. I know what used to be necessary for the security services in banks, however, which was regular gun training, safety certification and regular practice on the firing range. Still there was more accidents and problems as there was any good done. I know a lot of teachers here...and you really can't ask them to act as armed security guards on top of their existing job, which is demanding enough, and expect any good result.

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Response to NashuaDW (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:47 AM

25. I have never seen an armed air marshall on a plane.

I haven't seen an armed guard at a bank since I was a kid in the 70s.

The President of the United States receives death threats every single day; no one begrudges him armed guards. But WE are not the president. Do I get my own armed guard every time I leave the house? No I don't. I don't need one, because I'm not that important.

The solution to gun violence is not "more guns." Never was, never will be. Other countries do just fine with fewer guns.

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Response to NashuaDW (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:19 AM

28. They were INSIDE the school.

They shot most of the students in classrooms.
The police made a mistake by waiting outside. That changed because now first responders are taught to rush active shooters.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:25 AM

17. The "body armor" stories are by speculative journalist.

 

The follow up stories indicate that the perps were wearing "black clothing" or "black vest" or "camouflage clothing".

Media embellishment.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:38 AM

21. The same day that the shooting happened, at Glock and the other weapon manufacturers

a light bulb lit up above their heads.. " Hey why don't we start selling guns to teachers. A totally new market area.

That is why it takes a week for the NRA to respond. They have to poll their sponsors

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:40 AM

23. The advocates for arming teachers miss several key realities.

First, effective use of a gun under the situation that a teacher would have to use a gun under in a school takes hours upon hours of both stationary and moving target shooting practice. A teacher would need spend all of his or her working time at shooting ranges to become even remotely competent to take down a moving target under an intensely stressful situation, with may be many panicked kids running around.

Second, the advocates confuse a common criminal with a psychopath. A teacher may be able to stop a common criminal, may be if that teacher is highly proficient in the use of a gun under the conditions that I listed in the first instance above. An armed teacher will not stop a psychopath. The shooters at Columbine, Aurora, Minnesota, Sandy Hook were very smart, but highly deranged individuals - they had prepared and dressed for combat with body armor and would have been able to take out many armed teachers and even cops before finishing their evil work and killing themselves. If psychopaths know teachers or cops are packing in a school, they will change their tactics, with the result being even more people getting killed - instead of going in with body armor and guns, they will use explosives and gaseous poisons that can be easily produced from common household chemicals.

Third, if a deranged killer is even allowed to get within bombing distance of a school, many kids and teachers are going to die before the episode ends. The solution is to harden schools against forced entry into school buildings and against bomb damage - this can be done without making schools look like fortresses and in many cases, will make the school buildings and grounds look more elegant.

The NRA is just interested in protecting it's self dedicated image a a protector of a Second Amendment that it completely mis-interprets, the organization is not interested in the decisions and sustained effort that will be needed to make schools and other public places safer.


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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:46 AM

24. I will not ever

carry a working weapon onto my school site, or into my classroom.

I say "working weapon," because, in our study of the revolutionary war, I did bring in a bunch of artifacts one year, including a non-working brown bess.

It was part of a kit from the local historical society.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:40 AM

29. Well if we are going to arm teachers or put armed guards in schools won't we also have to

put an armed guard in each school bus? What about friday night football games, we will have to have guards at the stadium and guards in all the busses on overtime? Our schools have tax levees voted down year after year as it is, they are cutting teachers, screw them out of their pensions. How the hell we going to get the money to pay to give teachers weopons training or pay for armed guards? We have school districts locally that have filed bankrupcy and still can't get a tax levy passed.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:18 PM

30. Armed guards and/or teachers is a distraction.

It is a "shiny object" to occupy people so real dialog will not take place. IMO.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:24 PM

31. If every school was an impregnable fortress ...

... the deranged killer could wait for a school bus driver to open his door for the last kids on his run, shoot the driver, then kill all the children trapped on the bus.

What we need is a society that produces fewer deranged killers and makes it harder for them to obtain guns.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:25 PM

32. How many school massacres are there, anyway?

Yes they get much media, but this is a very rare event. There are many thousands of schools, and very few homicidal maniacs.

Arming teachers for something that will never happen is dumb.

And in those rare instances, there's no guarantee the teacher will prevail. And those teachers who are not Dirty Harry will nevertheless be regarded as primary targets.

As a teacher, I have taught students that made things appear in places they could not have been. I wouldn't want to guard a gun against them. I have also had students with violent criminal records.

By the way, I own a gun. I think bringing it in to a classroom is crazy.

--imm

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:36 PM

33. I barely trust myself with the stapler.

Having a loaded weapon in the schoolroom in the US?? It would totally dominate the tone of the learning environment. School attacks are terrifying, but we should be addressing the root of the problem, which is that our social system is insane and makes people snap.

More guns, especially in schools, are not the answer. It tears my guts out that we are even having this conversation as serious discourse in the US, when anyone who brings up socialism as a way to bring more social harmony is treated like a fucking leper.

I'm a teacher and I will never have a gun in my classroom.

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