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Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:18 AM

 

Bad News About Supplements

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by REP (a host of the General Discussion forum).

It could be rigged as Andrew Saul points out in very clear fashion.

http://www.doctoryourself.com/safety.html <--- much more at link

How to Make People Believe Any Anti-Vitamin Scare
It Just Takes Lots of Pharmaceutical Industry Cash

by Andrew W. Saul, Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, October 20, 2011

Recent much trumpeted anti-vitamin news is the product of pharmaceutical company payouts. No, this is not one of "those" conspiracy theories. Here's how it's done:

1) Cash to study authors. Many of the authors of a recent negative vitamin E paper (1) have received substantial income from the pharmaceutical industry. The names are available in the last page of the paper (1556) in the "Conflict of Interest" section. You will not see them in the brief summary at the JAMA website. A number of the study authors have received money from pharmaceutical companies, including Merck, Pfizer, Sanofi-Aventis, AstraZeneca, Abbott, GlaxoSmithKline, Janssen, Amgen, Firmagon, and Novartis.

2) Advertising revenue. Many popular magazines and almost all major medical journals receive income from the pharmaceutical industry. The only question is, how much? Pick up a copy of the publication and count the pharmaceutical ads. The more space sold, the more revenue for the publication. If you try to find their advertisement revenue, you'll see that they don't disclose it. So, just count the Pharma ads. Look in them all: Readers Digest http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v06n11.shtml , JAMA, Newsweek, Time, AARP Today, NEJM, Archives of Pediatrics. Even Prevention magazine. Practically any major periodical.

3) Rigged trials. Yes, it is true and yes it is provable. In a recent editorial, we explained how trials of new drugs are often rigged at http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v04n20.shtml . Studies of the health benefits of vitamins and essential nutrients also appear to be rigged. This can be easily done by using low doses to guarantee a negative result, and by biasing the interpretation to show a statistical increase in risk.

4) Bias in what is published, or rejected for publication. The largest and most popular medical journals receive very large income from pharmaceutical advertising. Peer-reviewed research indicates that this influences what they print, and even what study authors conclude from their data. http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v05n02.shtml .

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Arrow 44 replies Author Time Post
Reply Bad News About Supplements (Original post)
2on2u Dec 2012 OP
Xipe Totec Dec 2012 #1
newfie11 Dec 2012 #2
reACTIONary Dec 2012 #24
byeya Dec 2012 #27
newfie11 Dec 2012 #35
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #36
newfie11 Dec 2012 #40
think Dec 2012 #3
Patiod Dec 2012 #12
april Dec 2012 #17
Javaman Dec 2012 #26
Patiod Dec 2012 #33
Patiod Dec 2012 #31
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #20
Lisa D Dec 2012 #21
BanzaiBonnie Dec 2012 #4
ywcachieve Dec 2012 #5
Patiod Dec 2012 #15
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #22
Patiod Dec 2012 #34
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #37
byeya Dec 2012 #6
djean111 Dec 2012 #9
reACTIONary Dec 2012 #19
Cassidy Dec 2012 #11
siligut Dec 2012 #14
byeya Dec 2012 #42
bluemarkers Dec 2012 #7
SidDithers Dec 2012 #8
KurtNYC Dec 2012 #10
otohara Dec 2012 #28
KurtNYC Dec 2012 #30
otohara Dec 2012 #38
newfie11 Dec 2012 #39
laundry_queen Dec 2012 #43
Eddie Haskell Dec 2012 #13
NRaleighLiberal Dec 2012 #16
heaven05 Dec 2012 #18
Dustlawyer Dec 2012 #23
ananda Dec 2012 #25
Baitball Blogger Dec 2012 #29
GoneOffShore Dec 2012 #32
SidDithers Dec 2012 #41
REP Dec 2012 #44

Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:31 AM

1. What would be the motivation? Can't pharmaceutical companies make money off of supplements? nt

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Response to Xipe Totec (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:46 AM

2. Vitamins are cheaper, few if any side effects

People start finding out they might really work then big pharma looses money.the the big reason is more money. They are greedy

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:22 AM

24. Actually, real greed, in fact outright fraud, is perpetuated by the

...hawkers of supplements. They don't have to actually prove that their products are safe and effective, just make vague and unsubstantiated claims using lots of weasel words. What a racket!

These products are not a threat to the pharmaceutical industry - people aren't going to buy vitamins as a substitute for medicines prescribed by their doctors. The medical community (not "big pharma") is behind these studies for two reasons: They are scientists dedicated to empirical investigation, and the claims made by advocates (hawkers) of nutritional supplements need to be investigated for reasons of public health and safety.

The people making these claims are unable and unwilling to do such investigation themselves (there is a clue right there) so it falls on the scientific community to do so. It is really a waste - the sellers of the supplements should be required to prove their products are safe and effective themselves - rather than just make stuff up and leave it to others to do the work.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:33 AM

27. We can thank Sen Orrin Hatch of Utah for allowing these, many in UT, companies to get away

 

with making outright misleading claims about their supplements. I agree with you, the supplement biz is a racket.

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:06 PM

35. I am now 66 years old

Been using vitamins for 45 years ( not multiple vitamin pill but individual vitamins). My children were raised on them and my 76 year old husband has been on them for 42 years.
I am on only thyroid Meds ( thank you America for the nuclear tests in Nevada).

My children are very healthy as are my grand kids who are also on vitamins. My husband has diabetes ( thanks America for agent orange) but it is under control. His doctor is amazed every time he has a check up. He is on no other Meds.

People can say what they but me and my family are living proof vitamins do work.
My sister had acne very bad as a teen and young woman. She tried vitamin A and no change but then tried water soluble Vitamin A. Her acne cleared up and as long as she took It she had no acne.

At the age of 75 she could not get it and the acne returned. Her body cannot use oil soluble vitamins.

There are fakes in big pharma with false test results as well as companies producing supplements. Doesn't mean no drugs or vitamins work.

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #35)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:08 PM

36. That's not proof that vitamins work.

That's proof that you won the genetic lottery. The point is that the supplement industry has weaseled out of regulation and you have NO way of knowing what's actually in the supplements and vitamins you purchase.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #36)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:33 PM

40. Read on

My father died of a stroke at 56, mom died of a stroke 62, 1 sister died after having a CABG at age 52 (open heart surgery )
My brother has several stents and on mega drugs.
Don't tell me your propaganda. I have worked over forty years in the medical field.
Yes there is a need for drugs However I have seen patients have reactions and die because of drugs. I have seen people continue to get sicker because the drugs couldn't stop the illness.
Believe what you want but there are MD's that also take vitamins.
Go tell it to someone that hasn't seen both sides of it.

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:29 AM

3. Big pharma working hard to keep you sick to protect their profits.

but I guess that's as American as apple pie......

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Response to think (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:53 AM

12. No, they're not

I work for companies that serve Big Pharma, and they are NOT working to keep people sick. These are human beings with families, and they're working to make drugs they believe are helping people. Do the companies do shitty things? Absolutely. Do they want to keep people sick? People like their own families? No.

After all the years I've worked with pharmaceuticals, I've come to the conclusion that they're awesome if you're really stuck (rheumatoid arthritis, life-threatening infection) but best avoided otherwise. We're fine-tuned machines, and we still haven't figured out how everything hangs together -- for example, scientists are just figuring out how anti-biotics throw off gut flora, and what an astounding impact gut flora has on our entire bodies. So I don't take any pharmaceuticals unless I'm in really bad shape, but I also avoid supplements and "nutraceuticals" as well

At least Big Pharma has the FDA looking over its shoulder. Even though folks outside the industry think they are in bed with each other, it's more the opposite: the FDA is the bane of pharmaceutical manufacturers/marketers existence.

Supplement manufacturers have all the profit motive of Big Pharma, and (thanks to idiots on both sides of the aisle) no one looking over their shoulder. They can put out any old crap they want, and claim anything short of direct medical claims, and they're safe.

Read the writings of people who give out sensible eating and health advice, and they'll tell you - supplements are not the way to go unless you have a specific problem. Getting your vitamins through good food is the way to go.

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Response to Patiod (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:04 AM

17. the FDA is a bad joke

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Response to april (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:32 AM

26. Exactly. underfunded understaffed, big pharma walks all over them.

the USDA is also equally as big a joke for the same reasons.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:00 PM

33. No they don't.

See my reply below.

I have seen pharma companies change drastically in recent years in fear of fines and repercussions from the FDA. They have changed marketing practices, rep behavior, and even market research practices (by law we now have to report any adverse events we hear about to the FDA).

The FDA has no control of their lobbying, or their dealings with the federal government, and that's a whole 'nother issue.

But pharma companies are DEFINITELY not "walking all over" the FDA. Quite the opposite, actually (which is probably for the best).

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Response to april (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:56 AM

31. No, it's not. And it's not toothless. Pharma companies fear it.

It does indeed need to be better funded, but I have seen with my own eyes the enormous changes it has forced in the behavior of the pharmaceutical industry.

Doctors used to get all sorts of treats to bribe them to prescribe (trips, tickets to events, etc, etc) - now the FDA doesn't even allow PENS. It does allow group educational dinners, but within very strict guidelines.

Reps used to be able to say all sorts of stuff, but a few evil reps/marketing people at Perdue Pharma ruined that for everyone by pushing Oxycontin for pain that could be treated without the drug equivalent of a bazooka, thus hooking (and maybe killing) who knows how many people and essentially starting the "Oxy" epidemic. (Perdue wasn't the only one marketing stuff off-label when it shouldn't have, but its reps' behavior had the biggest negative consequences). The FDA has cracked down relentlessly on what reps can say now, and imposed multi-million dollar fines on companies. Now docs tell me "I used to rely on reps for good info about new drugs, but now they're only allowed to say what's on the package insert, and I can read that for myself."

In addition, they are now cracking the whip on reporting of post-marketing events. If I do a market research interview with a doctor on behalf of Drug X, and she mentions she saw an adverse event in a patient taking Drug X, I am required by law to report that event to the FDA within 24 hours, and believe me, every single pharma companies takes this VERY seriously. I had it happen last week, and the guy from the pharma company almost swallowed his head worrying about it throughout the rest of the interview -- fortunately, when I started to take the report on the incident at the end of the interview, the doctor checked, and found that it had actually happened to a patient taking drug Y (a drug that has had several of these types of events associated with it).

No teeth? That's absolutely not true.

Pharmaceutical companies live in fear of the FDA - they have entire departments of lawyers cracking down on everything they do and say for fear of running afoul of the FDA.

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Response to Patiod (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:14 AM

20. I wouldn't hang my hat on the FDA as a real industry watchdog....

...because that agency has been woefully understaffed and underfunded for decades....

FDA: Harsh Criticism From Within

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Response to Patiod (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:14 AM

21. Excellent post. n/t

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:29 AM

4. Best book on the subject of health and nutrition...

The Metabolic Plan ~ Stephen Cherniske


I had a copy I was reading and I purchased five copies for family members for Christmas.

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:00 AM

5. Lies from the pharmacueutical companies. They lose money when people are healthy.

The biggest legalized robbery in the country is what they charge for the their meds. So if vitamins, minerals, and herbs keep you healthy, that is not good for the Big Pharma.

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Response to ywcachieve (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:58 AM

15. Supplements made without oversight

At least Big Pharma has the FDA (who they hate)

These crooks can put out any old crap, and make completely ridiculous claims. I actually know otherwise intelligent people who pay good money for shit like Airborne, which has been proven not to work. They ignore the science, and take it anyway, because sometimes when they think they might be getting sick, they take it and don't get sick (whereas if they didn't take it, they wouldn't have gotten sick either).

If you think Big Pharma is bad (and it has done some rotten things), these companies are worse. So much of what they hawk is unproven, or PROVEN useless (or worse)

Eating well and exercising regularly is the answer, not vitamins, supplements and herbs.

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Response to Patiod (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:16 AM

22. You really need to do a little research on the FDA before you make yourself look even worse. nt.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:02 PM

34. I just report what I see from the pharma side

and the impact the FDA has made on pharma companies' marketing behavior.

I tend to believe what I actually see in practice.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:08 PM

37. So do you.

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:01 AM

6. Both the Center for Science in the Public Interest and the UCal Berekely Wellness letter do not

 

advocate taking supplements unless there's a diagnosis. Both outfits say a multi-vitamin won't hurt you.
UCal was wrong to advocate Beta Carotene and said so, the other never was on board, and both say vitamn E trials show nothing very positive.

I think eating a wide variety of foods, esp, whole grains(if you can tolerate them) and highly colored vegetables and fruits, plue yogurt, is the best.

Don't know why BigPharm would take this stance.

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Response to byeya (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:33 AM

9. Every dollar spent on supplements is at the very least a dollar they didn't get.

In addition, doing research yourself is taking money away from the health care industry - you should be paying insurance premiums, co-pays, and prescription charges. They didn't get to dip their beaks.

As a sweetener, the side-effects of many drugs are truly horrendous, and evidently just listing them in tiny print or having an actor speed-talk through them on TV absolves them of responsibility. Throwing out trials and tests that don't look good, not running trials long enough to see the bad stuff, encouraging off-label prescribing; they want every penny.
Sooner or later the current health care system will stagger and fall under the increasing charges and inflated costs - and then Big Pharma will cast around for additional sources of income. Maybe there will be an epic struggle between the war-mongers and "health care" for our money!

Someone once described her greedy mother to me like this - "If my mom had a million dollars and you had a nickel, she would be unable to rest until she got that nickel from you".
And that describes the entire 1%ers and corporate America's agenda, in my opinion. They will start snuffling around for the stray nickels.

Wait until they figure out that austerity and Christmas sales do not produce the traditional profits.
Like I said elsewhere, austerity will be trickling up.

(edited for grammer)
(edited again because I misspelled grammar )

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Response to djean111 (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:11 AM

19. That isn't true...

...people don't buy vitamins as a substitute for medicines prescribed by their doctors. The medical community (not "big pharma") is behind these studies for two reasons: They are scientists and are dedicated to empirical investigation, and the claims made by advocates (hawkers) of nutritional supplements need to be investigated for reasons of public health and safety.

The people making these claims are unable and unwilling to do such investigation themselves (there is a clue right there) so it falls on the scientific community to do so. It is really a waste - the sellers of the supplements should be required to prove there products are safe and effective themselves - rather than just make stuff up.

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Response to byeya (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:45 AM

11. Excellent points, byeya - eating a wide variety of foods, particularly plants, is best

It is frustrating that people do not recognize that the supplement industry is big business, too. Do people not know that Senator Orin Hatch has protected that industry for decades? He has never struck me as a particularly rational or moral person.

Yes, there are problems with Big Pharma, like testing new drugs against placebos, not against other currently available drugs and treatments. But supplements aren't required to have even that much evidence to support any of their claims, thanks to their powerful friends. They rely instead on unsupported claims and on the fallacy that something that is natural is good. Strychnine is natural, too.

We should be wary of the pharmaceutical industry, but we should apply equal skepticism to the vitamin and supplement industries.

(edited to make it more clear to whom I was responding.)






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Response to Cassidy (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:57 AM

14. Utah gives big tax breaks to supplement companies

Read the small print on the containers, many supplement cos are located in UT, CA or NY.

And you are so correct, Hatch is not a particularly rational or moral person.

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Response to Cassidy (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:54 PM

42. It's a shame so many people can't eat glutan because whole grains are the basis of many

 

cultures' diets. High fat seafood like sardines, herring, anchovies and salmon and char should be twice a week dinner dishes.

And, like you say, as many vegetables as you can tolerate(go easy on the white potatoes) and some fruit(fruit being calorie dense for the most part).

There's still room for cake and ice cream and chocolate a few times a week to. Variety is very healthy.

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:08 AM

7. for every $20 spent by big pharma

to bring a drug to market

$19 is spent promoting the drug, $1 is spent on research


and yet they cry cry cry about the cost of bringing new drugs to market. otoh, our doggie is only one in our family to have prescription. We take zinc to ward off colds and help with allergies. (we are weaning him off that right now) We really think that one unnecessary drug and bring down your core health.

(I can't quote a source, my husband worked in the industry and it was a figure thrown out in a sales meeting)

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:27 AM

8. Dr. Saul think you can cure your cancer with vitamin C...

I think the term quack can safely be used here.

From the site linked in the OP:

The following is a list of the conditions that Dr. Klenner successfully treated with aggressive vitamin C therapy:

Pneumonia
Encephalitis
Herpes Zoster (shingles)
Herpes Simplex
Mononucleosis
Pancreatitis
Hepatitis
Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever
Bladder Infection
Alcoholism
Arthritis
Some Cancers
Leukemia
Atherosclerosis
Ruptured Intervertebral Disc
High Cholesterol
Corneal Ulcer
Diabetes
Glaucoma
Schizophrenia
Burns and secondary infections
Heat Stroke
Radiation Burns
Heavy Metal Poisoning (Mercury, Lead)
Venomous Bites (insects, snakes)
Multiple Sclerosis
Chronic Fatigue
Complications of Surgery




Sid

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:45 AM

10. Supplements ARE a waste of money

No one need pay anyone else to say so. Your money is far better spent on real food which provides bio-available nutrients with no side effects.

Tim Ferriss is among many who are pursuing the truth about nutrients and how they are absorbed and used by the body. Among his goals is to make blood tests cheaper and more accessible and to create a unified database with the data from such testing.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/24/tim-ferriss-ema-day-in-the-life_n_1449252.html

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Response to KurtNYC (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:37 AM

28. ARE NOT

kinda depends on what you're taking and for what reason.

If you're sick with something like candida, it takes both food and supplements to get well.

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Response to otohara (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:47 AM

30. They can be dangerous too -- Calcium supplements increase risk of heart attacks

The body of evidence now seems to suggest that calcium consumed as part of a normal diet can, indeed, increase bone density and perhaps help lower blood pressure, but that supplements may be too risky for most people to take.
...
But when the team considered supplements, they found that those who took calcium supplements regularly were 86% more likely to have a heart attack than those who used no supplements. For those who took only calcium supplements, and no others, the risk doubled.

In an editorial accompanying the report, Dr. Ian R. Reid and Dr. Mark J. Bolland of the University of Auckland in New Zealand note that earlier studies have shown similar, albeit smaller effects. Those studies were smaller, however, and researchers did not put tremendous amounts of faith in them. Other studies, they note, have also shown that calcium supplements increase the risk of kidney stones by about 20%, cause gastrointestinal symptoms (particularly constipation) and double the risk of being hospitalized with an acute abdominal condition.


http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/23/science/la-sci-sn-calcium-heart-disease-20120523

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Response to KurtNYC (Reply #30)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:15 PM

38. Si, My Mineral of Choice is Magnesium Chloride

in the form of oil - or I make my own cream.
If we eat properly, most of us get enough calcium...Magnesium, not so much.

It has rid me of migraines completely and has made my post-polio pain easier to deal with because it relaxes the muscles.
Calcium contracts, Magnesium relaxes.

People ask, is it the same stuff you throw on ice?
Well, not exactly - I get the flakes from a sea bed in Germany. The ice stuff has other minerals in it.
If you've ever eaten tofu, you've eaten mag chloride from the sea.
Sometimes I squirt in a glass of water and drink.


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Response to KurtNYC (Reply #30)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:16 PM

39. Calcium and magnesium must be taken together

And in the right combination.

I am sorry but don't believe it is causing heart attacks. More made up scare stories.

I wonder what other drugs these people were on and what was their medical hx.

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Response to KurtNYC (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:25 PM

43. Not always.

I have vitamin D deficiency and live pretty far north. I cannot naturally produce vitamin D between Sept and May because of my latitude. I *HAVE* to take vit D supplements. I'm also lactose intolerant, so I don't drink milk (that type of vit D is a supplement added to milk anyway so no different than a pill). I refuse to go to a tanning bed as the UV isn't always at the right balance for making vit D, that and the cancer risk. Supplements have been a lifesaver - my levels are going up and my deficiency symptoms are lessening.

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:57 AM

13. The entire drug approval process has been corrupted.

Many peer review studies are done, but only the best results get published. Those that don't support the drug companies product get buried by a publishing bias that ignores the overall results ... and it happens all the time. And then there's the deliberate discounting of patient feedback.

Take Lipitor for example, studies show a small percentage of users suffer muscle pain, but in fact, a much larger percentage report pain only to be ignored by their doctor. Even the test used to confirm tissue damage is a 50/50 proposition.

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:00 AM

16. This is a far more complicated topic than black/white, bad/good.

And it is because we (humans) are so complicated, biologically and psychologically. I worked in Pharma for nearly 25 years. There is great good and some not so good in big pharma, as in all things that are populated by humans and their inherent faults and weaknesses. The major point, though, is that most medicines for specific issues do not work on everyone, and it is because of each of our individual genetics.

Are all supplements bad? Are all good? Again, too many variables - how does one know they are getting what is on the label?

Then there is the placebo effect, which is very real.

Eat well, get enough activity, do things that are good for your body, minimize doing things that are bad. That's a good start.

I try to catch the People's Pharmacy on NPR when I can (Joe and Terry Graeden). One of the "folk remedies" that I heard on the show that has done wonders for my horrendous knees are a few Ayurvedic medicines - Boswellia and Turmeric (curcumin) - both used as antiinflammatory agents for thousands of years. I add a daily glucosamine - been taking that as a trio every morning for at least 15 years - it has done wonders for my mobility.

But....anyway, that's my two cents.

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:06 AM

18. for drug companies

the general population being sick because of people stopping their supplements thinking they are not working means huge profits for them. Another case of american profit trumping the welfare of the citizenry. How sad and fucked up is that!!!! Two checkups ago, my doctor, who I trust, told me, based on blood analysis, my vit d was low. I started taking my supplement and feel a difference. Don't feel so run down and it also supposedly helps with cold and flu prevention. I have found also that eating raw garlic is a great anti viral agent in the bloodstream.

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:19 AM

23. With caps on damages, and higher burdens of proof to name just a few, big Pharma considers the

lawsuits as just a cost of doing business. Punitive damages for intentional acts and gross negligence have been stripped, or the burden raised too high to ever meet the standard. This makes our drug industry (and other industries for that matter) unsafe b/c you have taken away the only thing they are afraid of. Same as the BP oil spill case. BP has orchestrated this thing to perfection so far. Politicians they are not afraid of, they either own them, will own them, or will get them out and replace them. A jury is something that, although they do manipulate the messages to the area where the jurors will come from, they do not have much control. In our trials against BP for the Texas City, Texas explosion March 23, 2005, they had a Breast Cancer Fun Run go by the Courthouse right when the jurors were arriving for jury selection. The next trial they had a cancer fund raising bicycle ride even though the Judge had ruled that both sides stop with their media influence. After the case was over, they got the Texas Supreme Court to change the law and extend workers compensation policies of the contractors working at BP to cover BP as well. The effect was to prevent anyone hurt in a plant from being able to sue at all! If were to happen again there would have been no lawsuits. Now there is little incentive for safety since they are completely insulated. Now the time you hear about Tort Reform, know that it is an effort of corporate America to lessen their risk.

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:27 AM

25. I take supplements and they really help.

I follow the blood type diet and do not eat grains or processed foods of any type.

I take the er4yt multi-vitamin, bromelain, and joint protection supplements. My arthritis is gone, none.

I also take Whole Foods Cod Liver Oil and Flax Seed Oil capsules which are good for nails and hair. I also take magnesium capsules which keep me from getting constipated.

I visit the doctor once a year for my annual well-woman exam, and that's it. I see a chiropractor once a month or so for my scoliosis, and a massage therapist once a month.

I get a cold once every year or two, which gives my immune system a good workout and helps balance it out. Many people don't realize that sickness can help with immune system problems and allergies.

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:23 AM

29. They make a difference in my life.

It's all I'm saying.

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:58 AM

32. What data?

These folks say it's peer reviewed, but only by folks within the "natural Health" community. Hardly peer review.

Just looking at the Wiki entry on "orthomolecular" screams WOOOOOOOOO.

Critics have described some aspects of orthomolecular medicine as food faddism or quackery and there is research suggesting that certain nutritional supplements are harmful with several specific vitamin therapies linked to increased risk of cancer, heart disease, and death. The scientific consensus view is that for normal individuals, a balanced diet contains all necessary vitamins and minerals, and that routine supplementation is not necessary absent specific diagnosed deficiencies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthomolecular_medicine

Added on edit:

Not saying that I don't take some supplements (saw palmetto - though that has some clinical use according to my urologist) and regular vitamins, but I have no evidence that they are doing anything but producing some fairly expensive urine.

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:38 PM

41. Hey, didja hear about the supplement pusher who sued his own supplement maker...

'cause he poisoned himself (and a few others) with his own brand of supplements?

Seriously, you can't make this shit up.

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/05/01/gary-null-the-health-guru-who-sued-his-own-supplement/

Sid

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Response to 2on2u (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 02:01 PM

44. Locking

This does not meet the SoP of this Forum.

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