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Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:28 PM

Guns in the Classroom.... let's think about this for a minute....

My daughter is an elementary school teacher so this hits home.

I gave her this hypothetical situation yesterday....
Let's say she has a gun in her classroom. It will be locked up, of course, to protect the kids safety. ( She already has a kid in her class (4th grade) that is obsessed with guns. )

So a "bad guy with a gun" barges into her classroom.

What is she going to do first? Go get the key and go unlock the gun safe.... while her kids could get killed?
Or is she going to protect her students?
What is she going to have time to do in that situation IF it ever happened?

What would you do first? Think about it.
And then tell me how having teachers armed will help them in an event like what happened in Connecticut?

From my perspective, I don't see how it will help to have the teachers armed, unless they wear their gun at all times.

163 replies, 7526 views

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Reply Guns in the Classroom.... let's think about this for a minute.... (Original post)
jillan Dec 2012 OP
oddoneout Dec 2012 #1
Coyote_Tan Dec 2012 #2
jillan Dec 2012 #3
oddoneout Dec 2012 #11
bongbong Dec 2012 #58
MedicalAdmin Dec 2012 #69
bongbong Dec 2012 #77
oddoneout Dec 2012 #132
baldguy Dec 2012 #139
bongbong Dec 2012 #155
oddoneout Dec 2012 #131
baldguy Dec 2012 #140
oddoneout Dec 2012 #142
rbixby Dec 2012 #121
oddoneout Dec 2012 #133
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #5
oddoneout Dec 2012 #17
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #25
oddoneout Dec 2012 #29
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #41
oddoneout Dec 2012 #43
zappaman Dec 2012 #44
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #54
MedicalAdmin Dec 2012 #70
oddoneout Dec 2012 #134
zappaman Dec 2012 #153
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #6
oddoneout Dec 2012 #21
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #23
oddoneout Dec 2012 #24
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #27
oddoneout Dec 2012 #31
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #35
oddoneout Dec 2012 #38
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #55
Bigmack Dec 2012 #130
oddoneout Dec 2012 #135
baldguy Dec 2012 #141
oddoneout Dec 2012 #143
MedicalAdmin Dec 2012 #73
oddoneout Dec 2012 #136
MedicalAdmin Jan 2013 #163
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #26
oddoneout Dec 2012 #138
Chemisse Dec 2012 #57
PavePusher Dec 2012 #110
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #116
Chemisse Dec 2012 #158
PavePusher Dec 2012 #109
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #114
PavePusher Dec 2012 #120
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #122
Bigmack Dec 2012 #12
jillan Dec 2012 #22
PavePusher Dec 2012 #111
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #119
PavePusher Dec 2012 #124
Bigmack Dec 2012 #146
PavePusher Dec 2012 #157
Bigmack Dec 2012 #159
jillan Dec 2012 #126
oddoneout Dec 2012 #137
reteachinwi Dec 2012 #30
MedicalAdmin Dec 2012 #76
reteachinwi Dec 2012 #83
MedicalAdmin Jan 2013 #161
SheilaT Dec 2012 #52
Bigmack Dec 2012 #18
MedicalAdmin Dec 2012 #68
spanone Dec 2012 #94
Speck Tater Dec 2012 #102
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #151
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #4
jillan Dec 2012 #8
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #9
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #71
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #96
oddoneout Dec 2012 #19
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #28
oddoneout Dec 2012 #33
reteachinwi Dec 2012 #37
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #40
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #46
99Forever Dec 2012 #32
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #72
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #152
aikoaiko Dec 2012 #7
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #10
aikoaiko Dec 2012 #20
A Simple Game Dec 2012 #82
aikoaiko Dec 2012 #92
Squinch Dec 2012 #13
reteachinwi Dec 2012 #34
Squinch Dec 2012 #45
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #14
reteachinwi Dec 2012 #36
Paladin Dec 2012 #42
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #15
Lurks Often Dec 2012 #16
Remmah2 Dec 2012 #39
former9thward Dec 2012 #47
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #48
former9thward Dec 2012 #49
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #50
former9thward Dec 2012 #63
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #64
former9thward Dec 2012 #66
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #67
former9thward Dec 2012 #84
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #87
former9thward Dec 2012 #88
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #89
MedicalAdmin Dec 2012 #78
former9thward Dec 2012 #85
MedicalAdmin Jan 2013 #162
A Simple Game Dec 2012 #79
former9thward Dec 2012 #86
A Simple Game Dec 2012 #90
former9thward Dec 2012 #91
A Simple Game Dec 2012 #93
former9thward Dec 2012 #95
lunasun Dec 2012 #61
former9thward Dec 2012 #65
ieoeja Dec 2012 #75
former9thward Dec 2012 #156
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #154
Turbineguy Dec 2012 #51
jillan Dec 2012 #59
lunasun Dec 2012 #60
appleannie1 Dec 2012 #53
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #74
MedicalAdmin Dec 2012 #80
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #81
bongbong Dec 2012 #56
mary195149 Dec 2012 #62
musical_soul Dec 2012 #97
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #99
musical_soul Dec 2012 #104
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #107
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #129
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #108
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #100
musical_soul Dec 2012 #105
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #106
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #112
ibegurpard Dec 2012 #98
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #101
krispos42 Dec 2012 #103
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #113
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #117
krispos42 Dec 2012 #123
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #127
krispos42 Dec 2012 #144
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #145
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #148
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #149
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #115
PavePusher Dec 2012 #118
jillan Dec 2012 #125
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #128
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #147
IDemo Dec 2012 #150
Taverner Dec 2012 #160

Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:34 PM

1. well

 

in the latest situation in which multiple classrooms were shot up, after the first classroom was shot up and the shots were being heard through out the school. One of the other teachers could grab the gun quickly and be "ready" before the shooter ever arrived to the room, and as soon as he entered the room she could unload on him. In a situation like this latest one I can see how a teacher Trained in the use of firearms could be helpful.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:37 PM

2. Agreed...

 

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:38 PM

3. That's true, but what about my daughter? SOL?

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Response to jillan (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:45 PM

11. your daughter would

 

theoretically be trained in the use of firearms if anything like this were to be implemented. If she was the first class that the killer choose and caught off guard then there isn't much you would be able to do either way. All I am saying is that if one of those teachers in that school had a firearm and was trained to use it, then the number of deaths wouldn't be nearly as high. It can't be proven but I can't see how it would of made the death toll higher.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:09 PM

58. ???

 

> All I am saying is that if one of those teachers in that school had a firearm and was trained to use it, then the number of deaths wouldn't be nearly as high.

Wrong. Many other scenarios are possible beside the "Rambo Syndrome" one so beloved of Delicate Flowers. How about the teacher screws up in the moment and shoots some more children? Or how about the cops get there, see a second person with a gun, and start firing even more bullets?

The movies aren't a good model of what happens in real life, especially Rambo movies.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #58)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:09 PM

69. But, but, but.... (sputter)

WOLVERINES!!!11!!!

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Response to MedicalAdmin (Reply #69)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:29 PM

77. "Wolverines" is the 3rd reason gun humpers worship guns

 

There is a trilogy of reasons that Delicate Flowers (gun nutz) lust after their Precious:

1) unless armed, they're scared stiff of going anywhere except that "safe spot" under their bed

2) Rambo Syndrome, where you'll kill the "bad guy" & be acclaimed as a Mighty Warrior

3) Wolverine Syndrome, where a motley group of untrained cowards (see #1, above) defeat a vast armada of drones, tanks, microwave weapons, lasers, missiles etc etc etc with a few popguns

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Response to bongbong (Reply #77)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:06 AM

132. hopefully

 

you become more educated later on down your life.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #132)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:30 AM

139. Hopefully you'll realize that RW NRA propaganda is nothing but lies later on down your life.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #139)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:49 PM

155. That guy you responded to....

 

... got his pizza.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #58)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:05 AM

131. rambo syndrome huh

 

yea I see a lot of people trying to sensationalize what I am saying... can someone explain to me how the opportunity to be able to defend yourself is "Rambo syndrome". It seems that if you are not in law enforcement that it is absolutely impossible to be competent enough to be able to defend your self.

"Wrong. Many other scenarios are possible beside the "Rambo Syndrome" one so beloved of Delicate Flowers. How about the teacher screws up in the moment and shoots some more children?"
Or maybe the teacher does not screw up and shoots the killer and the death toll is smaller than it was.


"Or how about the cops get there, see a second person with a gun, and start firing even more bullets? "
It took the cops 20 minutes to get there after the first shot was taken.


"The movies aren't a good model of what happens in real life, especially Rambo movies."
the only one talking about movies is you.

Oh and one more thing...what do you propose we do...just leave things the way they are now?

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #131)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:36 AM

140. A lot of people are trying to sensationalize what you're saying?

You want kindergarteners to learn how to learn how to shoot assault weapons.

#11: "your daughter would theoretically be trained in the use of firearms..."

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Response to baldguy (Reply #140)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:14 AM

142. umm

 

his daughter is a teacher there not a student... you should try to know what you are talking about before you start talking. Did you even read the OP. Oh yea and i never said assault weapons. So stop putting words in my mouth baldguy.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:44 PM

121. Obviously the solution is gunracks

right next to the desks, all loaded, safety off, one in the chamber. That way if someone bursts in, the teacher can rain righteous lead on them without even getting up from her desk.

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Response to rbixby (Reply #121)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:07 AM

133. ok

 

since you have such an opposing view on this what do you think we should do? Just leave things the way they are now?

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:39 PM

5. Yeah, and then if the 2nd or 3rd teacher didn't shoot up the "one" intruder,

(at least your scenario has "one") we could give her a bad evaluation, fire her, prosecute her and throw her ass in jail. We could say, 'You had your training, bitch', you're responsible for the kids that do die.

Dumbfuckingidea.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:46 PM

17. nice to see

 

you are bringing logic to the conversation, thanks for your input!

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:03 PM

25. At least I have logical, as opposed to, wishful thinking.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #25)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:07 PM

29. what logical thinking

 

did you use in that statement...and what "wishful thinking" did i do?

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:21 PM

41. Your "wishful thinking" is the typical Rambo-wannabe shit

gun humpers love. That scenario is too pure and very unlikely. Guns in ANY location are far more likely to be used to hurt or kill someone innocent than to stop a "bad guy".

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #41)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:26 PM

43. i never said anything

 

like that... I was simply answering the OP's question. If guns are bad in every situation why do we let cops have them, why do we allow the secret service to have them? I understand where you are coming from, but making a blatant statement like you saying "Guns in ANY location are far more likely to be used to hurt or kill someone innocent than to stop a "bad guy" is just a complete and utter LIE. But if that is what you choose to believe, that is your right.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #43)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:27 PM

44. Have you thought about arming the children?

After all, cops were once children and there are more of them in the classroom then teachers.
With the proper training of course.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #44)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:59 PM

54. Lol!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #44)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:10 PM

70. Duck and cover!

And then squeeze off some shots.

What could go wrong?

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Response to zappaman (Reply #44)


Response to oddoneout (Reply #134)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:03 PM

153. You are most welcome.

I figured my input is at least as useless as yours, yes?
If not, I can strive harder.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:40 PM

6. Except.... you are not Rambo and the teacher is not Bruce Willis.

Do you REALLY think the average person is prepared to act in a tactical situation? If you do, you're fucking wrong.

http://wonkette.com/494403/study-you-are-not-actually-bruce-willis-it-turns-out

You live in a dream world.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:54 PM

21. notice i said

 

teachers who are trained in the use of firearms. If a teacher is protecting the children in a class I do not think it would be difficult to shoot someone who is killing children. And if 1 teacher can't do it, then maybe the next one can. I am just saying that I don't believe there would of been as many deaths if there were some teachers trained in using firearms present.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #21)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:55 PM

23. You didn't watch the video

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #23)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:02 PM

24. ok i get the just of the video.

 

answer this question. Do you think if the teachers had guns the death toll would of been higher or lower? And what is the alternative just leave everything the way it is now? Or completely ban guns and hope we get them from the crazy criminals who want to do this? Make them harder to get legally? That scenario doesn't do much to keep them out of the hands of criminals who do not acquire firearms legally?

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #24)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:06 PM

27. I think the death toll would have been the same.

And that having more guns is not the answer. In fact, having more guns will likely result in more tragedy.... more people 'snapping' and killing themselves and/or others. More tragic victims of domestic violence. More veterans of war snapping.



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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:09 PM

31. ok so is your solution

 

to simply leave things the way they are and "hope" these kinds of things do not happen again?

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:11 PM

35. No. We need to increase mental health, especially for vets, and decrease availability of firearms.

I don't have all of the answers, but I assure you, more guns is not part of the equation.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #35)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:17 PM

38. i was

 

simply answering the OP's question. I don't have all the answers either, but I am not going to simply throw an idea out the window without a real discussion. Cops were ordinary average people before they were trained in the use of firearms.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #38)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:00 PM

55. It takes thousands of rounds of serious training in proper training facilities to get proficient

with a handgun so the muscle memory takes over in a crisis.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:25 AM

130. oddoneout.... gently...

you don't know what your talking about.

You imagine somehow that a little training... or even a lot of training... would turn a teacher (or anybody) into somebody who could stop a person bent on mass murder.

Nobody... not trained troops, not cops, and sure as hell not teachers... reacts smoothly to life-or-death situations with firearms. At least not the first few times.

In the 1980's, a company of Marines in Panama got into a two hour firefight. They brought up extra ammo, too. Against shadows. No evidence that they had been under fire. Buck fever.

Cops... ? In LA, cops fired 90 shots at an unarmed man. They hit him 15 times and killed him. Where do you think the other 75 shots went...? Imagine that kind of shit in a school.

Read my post below about "friendly fire", too.

Take it from somebody who's been there. When the shit starts flying, it's all noise and fear and instinct. After a few times, things make a little more sense, and training takes over. But to expect people who've never fired a shot in anger to maintain their composure and fight effectively the first time under fire is naive. Embarrassingly naive.

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Response to Bigmack (Reply #130)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:11 AM

135. what do you

 

propose we do? Leave things the same? Do you think mass murders are more likely to happen in a school if a the shooter knows there are multiple teachers that know how to use firearms? Do you think the mere presence of the firearm could make the criminal think twice before doing at a school? What we have now is obviously not working, so instead of you telling me I don't know what I am talking about, and I am wrong....maybe propose your own solution.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #135)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:52 AM

141. How do we fix this? Let's talk about getting rid of the guns.

Guns are the problem. More guns is not a solution.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #141)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:17 AM

143. ok fine

 

lets talk, what are your thoughts on disarming criminals...how do you go about getting that done? We have been trying to get drugs out the hands of criminals for decades and we can't even do that...so how do you get the law breakers to follow a law banning guns?

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #24)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:20 PM

73. I don't think that policy and safety procedures should be designed ...

... by taking one unlikely fantasy scenario and then generalizing it to reality. Security would be better served by redesigning the doors and exits and communications in the building. In many schools the last time any of that infrastructure was updated was in the 70s or earlier.

To answer you question, it might have made a difference and it might have made it worse. It is impossible to say. And that is the problem with those kind of solutions. I can tell you that if you take that gun out of your fantasy scenario, and place it there all the time, then the chance of problems increase with each day of placement of that weapon in the school.

And will you make firearms training and competence a requirement for teachers? So answer this question, where is the money going to come from?

Lee Ann

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Response to MedicalAdmin (Reply #73)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:14 AM

136. teachers wouldn't be required

 

to do anything...but those of them that want to carry, once they show they have completed a certain amount of hours of training, i think they should be able to do so. The teacher would have to pay for their own training...like I said it would not require any one to do so.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #136)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:55 PM

163. So who is going to pay for the huge increase in liability insurance the schools will have to carry?

There are many more costs involved. My husband, rest his soul, was an expert in hostage rescue and did that job for years.

And he told me several times that he would not want to be in a room full of kids with a gun and a potential shooter / hostage situation because there would be WAY too many factors to control and the primary responsibility of those teachers is the students. That includes student management and not cowboy fantasies.

So again I ask, who will pay? (hint - if you say that Lloyd Blankfein will be personally responsible for every increase in cost I might agree with the idea just to fuck that asshat).

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #21)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:05 PM

26. Semi automatic weapons with huge magazines in the hands of a trained killer vs.

a little 27 year old teacher totally surprised by said killer.

You sound like another killer apologist.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:18 AM

138. oh ok

 

so 20 year old kids are "trained" killers, but teachers can not get training for defense? And how am I a killer apologist?

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:07 PM

57. That video was really instructive.

I think for a teacher to be armed and expected to protect their students with their guns actually sets teachers up for suicide missions.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #57)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:35 PM

110. That video bears no relation to reality.

 

I urge you to talk to a certified self-defense shooting instructor.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #110)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:56 PM

158. Well I am a teacher, and when I visualize myself trying to protect my students with a gun,

These are the kinds of things I see happening (although I really would hope I could at least get the gun out!). In most cases I think I (and my students) would be better off if we acted defensively (hid or escaped).

I also resent the idea that I am REQUIRED to be a hero under the NRA's scenario of armed teachers. I'm really not a heroic person, but if I did manage to pull off a maneuver that would save lives, I'd really rather be appreciated for it, than having it assumed that's what I am obligated to do. And I certainly don't want to be BLAMED if I am unable to stop a gunman.

Remember Columbine? The cops were outside the school for hours after the killers were already dead. Some of the victims bled to death because nobody dared enter the school. One boy saved his own life by thrusting himself out a window. The police did not want to risk their own lives to save the kids, and that is actually what they are trained and paid to do!

And now the teachers are supposed to take on that responsibility?!?

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:33 PM

109. That contrived video scenario is entirely fictional.

 

It has as much validity and reality as the "exploding gas tanks" that had to be wired with fireworks.

The dreamworld is yours.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #109)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:38 PM

114. Oh bullshit. The physical effects of crisis are fact. You are not Rambo.

Reduced field of vision
Impaired Thinking
Tunnel Vision, Temporary Blindness, and Auditory Exclusion ("tunnel hearing")

Tactical officers train at length for muscle memory to react properly in crisis. The average American is not. Firearms are dangerous and most Americans are too stupid to properly use them, despite the 2nd Amendment. The reality is most people with guns in crisis will cause more harm.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #114)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:43 PM

120. And yet they fail to live down to your expectations so frequently....

 

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #120)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:45 PM

122. Cute. I have a link to support my stance as well. The intenets rule!!

CCW holders have killed 499 people, including 14 LEO's and 23 mass murders.: http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:46 PM

12. Think again....

I have 30 years experience as a teacher and 4 years in the Marine Corps... 13 months in Vietnam.

Trust me.

A "teacher trained in the use of firearms" isn't going to mean diddly if a bad guy comes into the school...

Do you imagine some kindergarden teacher... even heavily armed and trained... kindergarten teacher is gonna be able to “hold 'em and squeeze 'em” while under fire and trying to shield her kids..? Somebody who has never fired a round in combat is going to calmly fire a head shot on somebody wearing body armor? Dream on. The "Die Hard" movies are not documentaries.

Where is the teacher going to wear or store their weapon? Kids get into everything in classrooms. Any teacher will tell you about how their keys/purse/grade book was stolen. A locked drawer is just a challenge to kids.

Imagine a handgun going adrift in a school. You really want teachers wearing a handgun at their waists? That’s a recipe for an accidental discharge. If the teacher’s weapon is locked away securely, how long would it take to retrieve it in an emergency?

Ever hear of fratricide... blue on blue... friendly fire...? It happens with the best of trained troops. Think Pat Tilman. Now think 3 or 4 untrained shooters spraying rounds around a school.

Ever hear of "buck fever"..? A hunter is so shaken by actually seeing a deer that he's shaking like a dog passing a peach pit. Now imagine that teacher trying to open that locked drawer, take up a good shooting location, take the safety off (maybe jack a round into the chamber)... meanwhile her kids are screaming and there's a monster coming to kill them.

With teachers - or anybody else, you're talking about a bloodbath before the bad guy gets off a single round. How would the teacher/guard know that anybody with a weapon wasn't the bad guy? They’d shoot each other, or more probably miss and kill those they are trying to protect.

And what do think the cops are going to see when they arrive...? A teacher standing there with a weapon. Bye-bye (hero) teacher!

Teachers are trained to teach. They are not warriors. These days, I'd even be nervous having a cop armed with a handgun on campus... he could be overpowered and the weapon used on students.

I have no idea what to do to stop the school shootings, but I know arming the teachers or students is dumber than hell.

Besides, teachers - especially elementary teachers - are surrogate parents, counselors, nurses.....are you gonna ask them to be armed guards, too.? Anybody willing to pay teachers combat pay..?

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Response to Bigmack (Reply #12)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:55 PM

22. Thank you for your post. I agree! My daughter is such an amazing teacher, but

she is 100% girly.... much, much more than her momma.

I don't think she has ever held a gun. Her dad owns them but never put one in her hand.

The whole thing terrifies me, especially with a kid in her class that already is showing violent tendencies.

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Response to jillan (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:36 PM

111. Do you think teachers are incapable of learning?

 

How very sad.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #111)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:43 PM

119. It takes thousands of rounds of serious training in proper training facilities to get proficient

with a handgun so the muscle memory takes over in a crisis.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/uninthree.htm

Also, experts on the use of handguns for self-defense reel off a number of real-life factors for which range shooting does not prepare the handgun owner:

The Physical Environment. One obvious difference is that shooting ranges optimize lighting and view. The handgun owner, however, has no control over the environmental conditions under which he may perceive the need to use his gun. The experience of police officers in real shootouts shows that "light conditions are often too poor to allow using the sights. Officers normally practice and qualify on well-lit ranges that allow full use of sights. Conditions on the street are rarely as favorable as range conditions."134 Poor lighting and confusing situations in real life increase the risk that the gun owner will make an error in judgment and harm an innocent person, or be harmed himself because he cannot use his handgun effectively. The range of potential environmental differences from a shooting range is enormous, from a dark bedroom to a rainy street corner or a bitter cold evening when the gun owner is wearing bulky gloves.

Physiological Stress.
Mortal fear does not accompany shooting at paper targets. But in a life or death situation "your heart thuds in your chest and your breathing accelerates and you have to react rapidly."135 This fear seriously affects one's shooting ability. "The real world of combat means a highly stressful event in which a very small percentage of bullets fired even strike the target."136 Even well-trained police officers who are taught to expect such stress reactions miss their targets many more times than they hit them.

Assailant Movements. A handgun owner may be quite proud of the hits he has scored in the "kill zone" on stationary paper targets. But, as many police officers have learned, assailants don't stand still waiting to be shot. "What a revelation. I was never so terrified in my whole life. They never told me in the academy that the targets were going to jump and move all over the place. There wasn't one 3' by 2' target to shoot at like on the police range."137

Unexpected Assailant Reaction.
More often than not, in the movies and on television, people who are "shot" simply fall down and stay down. End of fight. In real life, the opposite is often true, especially if the assailant is on alcohol or drugs. They either don't fall down, or they get back up and keep coming. "We can presume that in half of the police-involved shootings, the felon will not lay down and be cooperative instantly. In fact, many shooting reports included information to suggest that the felon showed no indication that he had been hit....Hitting such a moving target with a handgun, under extreme stress, is not easy."138

Ambiguous Situations.
There is no doubt about whether to shoot the targets at a shooting range—they are there as surrogate bad guys. But many real-life situations are ambiguous: is the "assailant" really a threat? Is the threat deadly enough to justify the use of lethal force? From his own experience, seasoned New York City police officer and author Jim Cirillo notes: "Many times, situations looked like armed robberies but turned out to be innocent. At such times, a man with no compassion might shoot when he shouldn't, or he might not consider bystanders during his moment of danger."139

Disarmament Moves.
Is the civilian gun owner prepared when the assailant attempts to disarm him, or simply shoots anyway? Is he aware that some criminals learn specific procedures to do just that? Probably not. But being suddenly disarmed or outgunned is a threat in the real world. "There are many instances where the suspect has drawn a weapon and killed an officer after the officer pointed his weapon and issued the proper challenge. The suspect just plain beat the officer....The Aryan Brotherhood prison gang, along with the Hell's Angels outlaw motorcycle gang, have developed a technique to disarm an officer from a distance of 21 feet. It works in conjunction with an officer's natural lag time."

You may be an exception. You may just think you're the exception, but the reality is most people with guns in crisis will cause more harm.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #119)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:48 PM

124. No, it doesn't.

 

I suggest you talk to people actually qualified in the field. Looking to VPC for facts on self-defense is rather like talking to PETA about what type of meat to have for dinner.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #124)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:43 AM

146. Yes, it does.....

Why do you think people like the cops and military shoot so often, and so much, to stay qualified?

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Response to Bigmack (Reply #146)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:31 PM

157. I'm in the military, and I know police.

 

Neither we, nor they, shoot much at all (on the government dime anyway).

Really. It's quite a sad state of affairs actually. Our training really isn't anywhere near as good as you think it is.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #157)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 01:22 AM

159. Different branch of the military, I guess....

In the Marine Corps we fired a lot of weapons a lot of times. Familiarization with our weapons was kinda necessary.

If you are in combat arms and you don't shoot all the time.... good luck.
If your training with weapons isn't constant, do you somehow imagine you'd be able to effectively respond with a weapon in a tight situation?

If cops qualify every 6 months, how often should teachers qualify? You think a couple of hundred rounds over a couple of years is going to make them proficient?

Did you even read Peacenikki's post?

What she said... X100.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #111)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:33 AM

126. Teachers are not the ones with the learning disabilities. Members of the NRA are the ones

that cannot seem to learn to adjust.
LaPierre has got to be the most ignorant person I have heard in my lifetime.

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Response to jillan (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:16 AM

137. so you

 

think she is safer there with out one. That is your stance? That if a raging killer came through the school she should just sit in her desk and wait for her turn? Come on give your daughter's learning capacity a little more credit than you are.

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Response to Bigmack (Reply #12)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:07 PM

30. Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory

 

I understand that the military and law enforcement use the MMPI to identify individuals who might create mayhem if given access to unsecured weapons and weed them out of service. If you want a gun, prove your not a sociopath first. Let teachers teach instead of arming them against a few sociopaths.

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Response to reteachinwi (Reply #30)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:25 PM

76. The MMPI is specifically NOT to be used as you say it is being used.

The authors of that test have specifically stated that it doesn't work that way. It doesn't stop stupid RW cop admin types from using it just to feel good about themselves.

I'm not snapping at you. It just bugs me when science isn't used correctly.

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Response to MedicalAdmin (Reply #76)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:13 PM

83. Thanks

 

It's good to get corrected.

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Response to reteachinwi (Reply #83)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:48 PM

161. Thanks for taking it well.

It's always good to talk to an adult.

LeeAnn

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Response to Bigmack (Reply #12)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:56 PM

52. Thank you.

I appreciate someone who actually has experience in combat debunk the notion that more guns are the answer.

Here's another small thought: I myself am not (and never will be) a classroom teacher. I am someone who is adamantly opposed to guns and would like to see them severely regulated and restricted. Because of my feelings on that topic, I would absolutely not agree to have a gun in my classroom. Yes, I hear the gun apologists saying, but you'd be trained! Nothing could possibly train me to be comfortable with a gun. I realize I can only speak for myself, and I'll repeat that I've never been and never will be a classroom teacher, but I have a feeling there's a reasonable number of classroom teachers who also would not ever be comfortable with a gun.

And none of this deals with the "locked up" idiocy.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:51 PM

18. "Friendly fire..."...

..is a real problem. With trained troops.

Imagine with somebody who has fired a couple of hundred rounds on a range, but never faced a situation...

Some samples...


US troops killed at least seven and wounded 34 of their compatriots in 18 suspected friendly fire incidents after the invasion of Iraq, only the most serious of which have previously been made public.

The catalogue of "blue on blue" deaths and injuries shows how serious the wrong call from a young man in charge of deadly weaponry can be in the stress, confusion and bureaucracy of modern war – and how events that seem clear one moment may be perceived differently soon afterwards.

When a unit from the 502nd Infantry Regiment came under small arms fire in Baghdad on 4 November 2005 they assumed they were being attacked by the enemy. Five men were injured and another, Staff Sergeant Joseph Fegler, 24, was killed. Two hours after the engagement it emerged that the damage had been done by the rear gunner of another US convoy up ahead. The first shots the victims heard had been warning shots fired to get them to keep their distance.

Three weeks later a patrol from another company of the same regiment, moving on foot through farmland south-west of Baghdad, came under heavy fire from insurgents. Some of the platoon were wounded and the senior sergeant commandeered a civilian car to take them back to the company vehicles. As it raced back another part of their company, drawn by the sound of shooting, headed their way. They saw a civilian car filled with armed men moving towards them at high speed, and opened fire, killing two of their comrades, Sergeant Aram Bass and Sergeant William Meeuwsen, and injuring four others, including a civilian interpreter.

Corporal Ryan Collins of the 501st Parachute Regiment, who died from a gunshot wound; and Private Shawn Hensel, who appears to have been among a group of 23rd Infantry soldiers hit by a burst of heavy calibre machine gun fire from a US Stryker armoured vehicle.

One night in October 2006 a British patrol, festooned with the blue light sticks, agreed on as a sign to identify themselves as friendly, reported they had been shot at by US troops who had no night vision goggles and had been listening to their iPods.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:07 PM

68. Unload on the person entering the classroom?

What if it weren't the shooter? What if the sound they heard wasn't a gun shot?

...


UNLOAD ... as soon as he entered the room.

There is a whole bucket of dumb in this post.

LeeAnn

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 08:45 PM

94. what a mouthload of horseshit.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:10 PM

102. That always seems to work when it's scripted and choreographed

 

with a dozen rehearsals before they actually roll the cameras.

Of course real life is not a carefully scripted movie like so many nutty gun jockeys seem to think it is.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:38 AM

151. The second, third, fourth teachers would have guns, but

would likely confront a person that is MOVING AROUND and has head to toe body armor on. Your idea is a recipe for getting those teachers killed along with their student by an agitated psychopath. A better idea is keeping the asshole out of the school buildings and grounds to begin with. I am not one on DU that thinks banning guns of any type solves the problem of mass shootings, because it won't IMO. But, I also don't buy into the fucking insane idea that a person that has had minimal training with a gun and hasn't spent hundreds and even thousands of hours in live fire target practice with both stationary and moving targets and surprise rise targets has a fucking iota of a chance of stopping a psychopathic shooter that is dressed for outright combat. Instead of praying for a lucky shot, it is better to setup school buildings and grounds in a way to prevent deranged shooters from getting into near contact with teachers and students. Even with best efforts, mass shootings will happen in an open society if we don't delve into the deeper reasons why people go off the rails and kill masses of other human beings - part of the solution will be better mental health care and identification of potentially dangerous people using constitutional methods - part of the solution will be regulation of gun ownership and setting an expectation that people be responsible for the guns that they buy - part of the solution will be immediate imprisonment for ANYONE caught with an unregistered gun or a gun that doesn't have a registered serial number, laws can be written so that law abiding citizens that already own unregistered guns can get them registered and into a database.

I will leave it up to parents of children to find out whether the parents of their children's friends own guns, if parents don't want their kids a round guns, they have a right to ask other parents about their gun ownership and not let their kids visit if no answer is given or a household owns guns - that area isn't the domain of government.

Lastly. I want to take on the Second Amendment. Your post leads me to believe that you are the type that think that Amendment gives unlimited ownership of guns to anyone that wants a gun, in addition to ownership of any type of gun. Amendments to the Constitution were written for the time period that they were designed to cover. Up until and during the Civil War and the War of 1812, fighters were largely drawn from ordinary citizens and fighters from each state were organized and under the direction of each state, that is why, if you study the Revolutionary War, or the Civil War and to a more limited extent, the War of 1812, you will see that fighting was largely conducted by a loosely affiliated collection of state militias. The Second Amendment was a document for it's time, a time when farmers, carriage drivers, regular citizens could be asked to join a military effort and bring their own guns and ammunition. The Second Amendment gave gun ownership rights ONLY for the purpose of protecting the budding nation, that role is conducted wholly by a professional, national military today and has been since after the War of 1812. The Second Amendment was a document for the time that document was crafted, but has been out of date for over 200 years, it should be repealed and in it's place an Amendment that deals with the realities of the age that we live in now, TODAY.

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:39 PM

4. In your scenario the teacher is not armed.

Your scenario does point out the problem with a gun locked away somewhere (no quick access). However, this kind of setup could be easily workable for the staff in the school's office.

For the teacher to be armed, the gun would need to be in a holster worn by the teacher, the normal proposals being a concealed-carry holster.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:41 PM

8. If the staff in the office is armed, that's one thing... but if the gunman hopped the fence in any

other point of access, the office staff wouldn't help.

I'm not trying to argue, I really care about this especially since in my state - Az - they are pushing for all teachers to be armed.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:41 PM

9. Because of course, kids are never in the school office. :eyeroll:

Not to mention the fact that when mass shooters are headed into a school, they don't generally sign in at the office. In many schools, its possible to completely bypass the office and go to classrooms undetected because of the way the school is laid out.

Another Dumbfuckingidea.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:14 PM

71. You seem to have misread something.

Yes, kids are often in the office. No one suggested otherwise. That is a good reason to keep any firearms under lock and key.

No one said anything about visitors/killers checking in at the office first. However, the office does make a good central and staffed location for emergency equipment should the need arise.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #71)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:29 PM

96. Uh huh. Work in a school do you? No, didn't think so.

Anyone in favor of assault rifles, semi automatics or auto any gun will not receive one iota of understanding from those of us who do work, and apparently die, in service to kids in schools. While you dream up ridiculous shit about Rambo via the school secretaries, who are usually well into middle age, we're actually doing the job of protecting kids. We know what is needed.

The only emergency equipment in an office are band aids stupid. AND its going to stay that way. Because unlike you, Maniac, we who work in the schools don't expect to make you all feel better in society by keeping a loaded firearm in a fucking office when no one would have the time to get to it anyway.

At the very least, these firearms needs to go. Deal with it. We have since Columbine. Nobody gave a shit when the bans were lifted. Now we don't give a shit.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:51 PM

19. or simply

 

locked in a drawer in the desk. I understand it wouldn't do the first teacher any good, but once the killer started moving from class to class, one of the other teachers would of have had time to get the firearm and be ready. Put all the kids behind you in a corner and be ready pointing the gun at the door and when the killer enters unload. I'm not saying it is easy but I think any teacher who loves the children they teach would be able to pull the trigger to save the kids lives.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:07 PM

28. Watching a lot of John Wayne movies over the holiday are ya?

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:10 PM

33. what

 

do you propose to do? Do you think things should stay the way they are and just hope nothing like this happens again?

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:16 PM

37. Please see post #30

 

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:20 PM

40. I propose you suggest something or just get lost. You don't seem to belong here.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:29 PM

46. Ban assault weapons. Ban pistols. Jail the living shit out of violators

A 50-year federal sentence for having an illegal weapon sounds about right to me. And life with no parole sounds good for someone who commits a crime with a gun.

Do you have other questions?

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:09 PM

32. You watch too many movies.

You don't seem to even have a basic grasp on just how ludicrous this is?


Good grief!


<<<<<<

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:18 PM

72. Nice to see someone actually thinking it though.

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Response to oddoneout (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:48 AM

152. Have you ever shot at a target that is reinforced, moving with lots of innocents

near that target and is shooting back at you? You sound like one that is a person that thinks a gun imparts magical ability to defend against any situation, it doesn't. Until you have been in a live fire situation with the target firing back at you, you have no idea what a teacher will face - most people will freeze up cold in such a situation or start wildly firing about without aiming - such a thing will insure two outcomes, the teacher will get killed and will accidentally kill or harm the people he or she was trying to protect in the process. Look, there is a reason why soldiers spend huge amounts of time in gun training with a drill instructor breaking down their instinct to freeze up or panic - there is also a reason why those soldiers are put through simulated combat situations well before the real thing happens - I don't see schools being able to do any of that with teachers.

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:41 PM

7. You're right to be skeptical, but on the other hand...


...perhaps the teachers hear the shooter shoot out the lock or window on the door as the CT shooter did.

The teacher goes to her desk, swipe her finger on the biometric desk safe, and is armed and prepared before the shooter even gets to the room.




There are lots of scenarios. Having said that, I respect a teacher's or communities decision to not arm teachers if that is their choice.


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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:43 PM

10. Yeah, sure. Maybe they shoudl just ask Scotty to beam them up.

And by the way, arming Teachers WILL become a union bargaining issue in the areas that have union representation.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:54 PM

20. As is their right to negotiate.


I don't foresee anyone forcing teachers to carry or be armed.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:50 PM

82. Or perhaps upon hearing the shooter break into the school, the teacher

goes to the bulletproof door installed on the classroom with less money than it would have taken to buy guns and train the teachers, and locks it. Then through the bulletproof glass window s/he watches for the all clear. Maybe to kill some time make faces at the shooter.

Now bulletproof glass for all the outside windows is another story.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #82)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 07:17 PM

92. I'm all for secure doors and windows with a good alarm system

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:46 PM

13. If the guns in the classroom program were instituted, I'd give it a week before some angry

middle schooler got the key and threatened, hurt or killed a classmate.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:10 PM

34. Or a teacher at the end of his/her rope

 

fires a round or two to get everyone's attention. We can't be taking this seriously. Nothing will go wrong?

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Response to reteachinwi (Reply #34)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:28 PM

45. Really. The whole idea is just as dumb as could be. We have gone completely crazy.

And LaPierre is the pied piper leading the way.

And you know who is following him because they always preface their statements by saying, "I don't support the NRA but..."

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:46 PM

14. Institute guns in the classroom in any sane part of the country & watch attendance drop by

40% overnight.

I sure as HELL wouldn't permit my kids into a classroom if I knew the teacher had a gun, as it would greatly increase their chance of being shot while at school. The people recommending that teachers be armed (not you, jilian) either don't have kids at home, or shouldn't have kids at home.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:12 PM

36. +10^10

 

bangbangbang

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:26 PM

42. Bullseye. Thanks. (nt)

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:46 PM

15. I don't think these proposals are calling for the weapon to be locked up.

It would be presumed to be on his/her person, presumably concealed. That would eliminate that particular problem, the one of access taking too long to be tactically useful. But it's still a very bad idea, IMO. A crowded classroom is a place where only flawless accuracy in shot placement is good enough. That kind of accuracy under stress is possible...but it takes a tremendous commitment to training and practice. It's not a dissimilar situation to using a handgun in the cabin of an airliner...and Air Marshals are some of the most rigorously trained (in pistol shooting) of all law enforcement personnel. Their qualification standard is hard to attain.

While some educators might be willing and able to attain that standard, I doubt most have the time to do so, even if so inclined. They already have a full-time job.

Armed teachers is just a bad idea, regardless of whether it's one of my heroes (Bill Clinton) proposing it, or one of my villains (Wayne LaPierre).

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:46 PM

16. The armed security/police are already in the schools

"Nationwide, at least 23,000 schools — about one-third of all public schools — already had armed security on staff as of the most recent data, for the 2009-10 school year, and a number of states and districts that do not use them have begun discussing the idea in recent days. " 6th paragraph here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/22/us/nra-calls-for-armed-guards-at-schools.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Course most, if not all, are in the high schools. And yes I am aware that Columbine had an armed police officer assigned to the school, he was off site when the Columbine shooting occurred

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/columbine.cd/Pages/DEPUTIES_TEXT.htm

I will also note that the Newtown, CT police department has 1 Youth Services officer and 2 School Resources officers, which I presume are assigned to the high school:

http://www.newtown-ct.gov/Public_Documents/NewtownCT_Police/Roster%20Folder/roster2

I have read that from the time the first shot was fired until the first police officer responded was 20 minutes. I am not sure where in that timeframe the first 911 call was placed.

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:20 PM

39. Classroom doors need to be secured, sort of like airplane cockpit doors.

 

nt

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:33 PM

47. Chicago has 2000 police/security officers assigned to their schools.

For 40 years now Chicago has assigned a two man squad car to all their high schools. There have been plenty of kids killed in gang battles and drive by shootings in areas outside of schools but no mass shootings or killings inside the schools even though their schools are invested with gangs.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #47)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:38 PM

48. Are you suggesting that these officers thwart mass shootings regularly in Chicago?

Weird, cuz I haven't seen the gang connection made with frankly ANY of the recent mass killings. Enlighten me, please? I was under the impression they were suburban white men mostly.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #48)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:46 PM

49. The OP seems to think armed security does not work.

It has worked in Chicago. If you know anything about Chicago there are regular gang battles where large numbers are shot. This would be going on in schools if police weren't there. I haven't cataloged all the mass killings so I have no idea if they are all "suburban white men". Although I doubt the Ft. Hoot shooter and the biggest mass killer of all, Seung-Hui Cho at Virginia Tech were "suburban white men".

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Response to former9thward (Reply #49)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:49 PM

50. Mother Jones has

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

"Since 1982, there have been at least 62 mass murders* carried out with firearms across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii. We've mapped them below, including details on the shooters' identities, the types of weapons they used, and the number of victims they injured and killed.

The killers: Half of the cases involved school or workplace shootings (12 and 19, respectively); the other 31 cases took place in locations including shopping malls, restaurants, government buildings, and military bases. Forty four of the killers were white males. Only one of them was a woman. (See Goleta, Calif., in 2006.) The average age of the killers was 35, though the youngest among them was a mere 11 years old. (See Jonesboro, Ark., in 1998.) A majority were mentally ill—and many displayed signs of it before setting out to kill. Explore the map for further details—we do not consider it to be all-inclusive, but based on the criteria we used to identify mass murders, we believe that we've produced the most comprehensive rundown available on this particular type of traumatic violence. "

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #50)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:43 PM

63. 44 out of 62. Ok, now what is the point of that stat?

I was commenting on the usefulness that Chicago has found in armed security in its schools. Your post has nothing to do with that.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #63)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:46 PM

64. I have yet to see proof that officers in Chicago schools have thwarted a mass shooting.

Just because there has not been one there does not mean they have or could stop one.

There has not been an alien invasion in Chicago schools either. I suppose we also have them and their guns to thank for that?

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #64)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:51 PM

66. You see how far you have to go when you back yourself into a corner?

A neutral person would be laughing at your post when you have to bring in alien invasions to try and save your point. These shootings take place in 'gun free' zones. Chicago schools are not gun free. If you don't think that has anything to do with it fine. Have a nice day. Any snow in WI?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #66)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:57 PM

67. How can anyone remain neutral when children are being murdered?

Also, I don't agree with your premise that bringing more murder weapons to school is a good idea. It just isn't.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #67)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:23 PM

84. So in your mind there are the pro-murder children crowd and those against murdering children.

Neutral means they have not made up their mind whether armed security is schools is good or bad. Get it? I guess President Obama should get rid the Secret Service because they have "murder weapons".

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Response to former9thward (Reply #84)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:37 PM

87. I think you may have meant to reply to someone else.

I didn't say any of these things you're attributing to me.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #87)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:45 PM

88. Your post:

How can anyone remain neutral when children are being murdered? What does that mean? And you said that guns were murder weapons. Right?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #88)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:51 PM

89. Yes, guns are murder weapons.

No, I don't want to disarm the Secret Service. And for that matter, I don't want to disarm the Marine Corps. And no, no one should remain neutral when it comes to stopping the slaughter of little children. I should not even have to say that, but there it is. There are some people, even people on this board, who are much more interested in talking about their "rights" than about stopping this violence. Those people are not neutral, and fuck them anyway.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #64)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:37 PM

78. Cut the poster some slack.

After all, Boosh kept us safe from the Iraqi Al Quida terrorists who blew up NYC and shit.

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Response to MedicalAdmin (Reply #78)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:28 PM

85. What do you think President Obama thinks of the Chicago sitution?

He was a state senator from a Chicago district with plenty of schools in it.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #85)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 01:49 PM

162. I really don't know.

But the current mayor of Chitown is his former aide de camp.....

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Response to former9thward (Reply #63)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:38 PM

79. Perhaps the point was in response to your post.

I haven't cataloged all the mass killings so I have no idea if they are all "suburban white men". Although I doubt the Ft. Hoot shooter and the biggest mass killer of all, Seung-Hui Cho at Virginia Tech were "suburban white men".


This is the second time I have seen you back away from something you said. Me thinks you are just trying for diversions.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #79)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:30 PM

86. What did I back away from?

Since you are keeping track tell us both of them.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #86)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:53 PM

90. The later instance is in my post and the former is linked below.

Your diversion from the second amendment to the first.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022072202#post12

You are now saying you didn't bring up the subject of how many white men were involved in mass shootings? Please reread your post #49.

I think you try to change the subject as a diversion. I am starting to see a pattern.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #90)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 07:16 PM

91. I see a pattern also.

Of posters neglecting to read. In post #49 I was responding to post #48 which was Weird, cuz I haven't seen the gang connection made with frankly ANY of the recent mass killings. Enlighten me, please? I was under the impression they were suburban white men mostly. And you are saying I brought the subject up???

In terms of your link I have no idea what you are talking about.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #91)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 08:43 PM

93. The first mention of gangs was in post #47, by you.

As for the link, we only exchanged 4 or 5 posts about it yesterday, I can understand why you don't remember it.

We're done, I have a brick wall I can use instead.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #93)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 09:36 PM

95. Nice try at moving the goal posts.

First it was "white men" and now it is "gangs" . What next?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #49)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:22 PM

61. did not work @ Columbine CO

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/columbine-armed-guards_n_2347096.html

In 1999, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed 15 people and wounded 23 more at Columbine High School. The destruction occurred despite the fact that there was an armed security officer at the school and another one nearby -- exactly what LaPierre argued on Friday was the answer to stopping "a bad guy with a gun."

Deputy Neil Gardner was a 15-year veteran of the Jefferson County, Colo., Sheriff’s Office assigned as the uniformed officer at Columbine. According to an account compiled by the police department, Gardner fired on Harris but was unsuccessful in stopping him

Gardner, seeing Harris working with his gun, leaned over the top of the car and fired four shots. He was 60 yards from the gunman. Harris spun hard to the right and Gardner momentarily thought he had hit him. Seconds later, Harris began shooting again at the deputy.

After the exchange of gunfire, Harris ran back into the building. Gardner was able to get on the police radio and called for assistance from other Sheriff’s units. "Shots in the building. I need someone in the south lot with me."

The second officer was Deputy Paul Smoker, a motorcycle patrolman who was near the school writing a speeding ticket. When he heard a dispatch of a woman injured at the high school, he responded. He, too, fired at Harris but didn't stop him.

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Response to lunasun (Reply #61)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:47 PM

65. I commented on the Chicago sitution.

On the very day Sandy Hook occurred 10 people were shot in Chicago. No media attention because no one cares. But at least the inside of their schools are under control. With reference to Columbine the Secret Service did not stop JFK from being killed. That does not mean the SS is useless and can't prevent attacks.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:21 PM

75. Which we finally got under control by ... getting the guns out of school.


Prior to installing those metal detectors, shootings in Chicago schools were so common they weren't even a front page news item.


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Response to ieoeja (Reply #75)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:37 PM

156. So are you saying armed cops are no longer needed in Chicago schools?

Just a metal detector?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #65)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:11 PM

154. You make the typical NRA argument mistake.

Gang-bangers are thugs, common criminals, none want to be in a situation where they can get killed, at least that is part of their reasoning going in. A smart psycho killer doesn't give a fuck about who else is around with a gun. The Columbine shooters knew that an armed cop was on campus, I am sure that they were prepared for that cop if they had encountered the cop, that cop would have been added to their body count given that the shooters were prepared. The Sandy Hook shooter and the shooter in Oregon killed themselves. One of the cops responding to the Sandy Hook shooter reasoned that he killed himself when he heard sirens, who knows, the shooter could have just spent the homicidal rage that cause him to shoot innocent children point blank. Information on the Oregon shooter early on implies that he knew one or more of his victims, which may not make his rampage a mass shooting because his targets may have involved a smaller number of people.

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:55 PM

51. Getting guns in the classroom

isn't about protecting children, it's about selling more guns.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:10 PM

59. Bingo!! Yep! Because there is no way having armed teachers is going to save lives.

The second armed teacher comes in after the first armed teacher and her students have been shot?

There is no way the first armed teacher saves her students or herself.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:16 PM

60. +100

on tax payer's dime

just like war profits

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:58 PM

53. and if she does get the gun, is she going to fire over the kids risking they get hit with friendly

fire? How would she feel if she found out a child died from a bullet she fired?

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Response to appleannie1 (Reply #53)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:21 PM

74. Only if she is hiding behind the students.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #74)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:41 PM

80. Children, and this may surprise you, move about.

Often in unpredictable ways. Especially in stressful situations.

Her kids may or may not be hiding behind her /him. But they are much more likely to be under control and calm if the teacher is ONLY focusing on them and not on the 1 weekend day gun before school inservice she/he attended 6 months previously.

Even your dog looks skeptical.

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Response to MedicalAdmin (Reply #80)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:46 PM

81. Congratulations. That is a good assessment

that each teacher needs to think about before choosing to be armed.

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:06 PM

56. She will ask the "bad guy" to wait a minute

 

To phone Wayne LaTerrorist and ask him what she should do.

(and you thought I was going to say "to give her time to get her gun")

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:27 PM

62. When they were talking about teachers being armed,

they were saying the teachers would be wearing a gun/holster on them. That way, they would be ready. I find this to be pretty scary and cause more problems instead of less.

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:36 PM

97. You're right.

The way for this to work would be to conceal it.

I have to say I do think teachers should undergo a psych evaluation before being allowed to carry a gun. Some teachers are too paranoid for a gun.

Consider this. The principal ran toward the shooter and got shot. Courageous woman, but what if she had a gun of her own as she ran toward him? She might have killed him and saved some lives.

Consider the fact that some teachers already knew what was going on and was trying to figure out what to do with their kids (thus the teacher who hid her kids in cabinets). While it would be "too late" for some teachers, it wouldn't be for others.

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Response to musical_soul (Reply #97)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:52 PM

99. The only people who need Psych eval's are members of the public

who insist on being able to target shoot with semi automatic weapons even though they will not use them to hunt or to defend themselves.

Who the fuck do you people think you are kidding with your measly post counts. We know who you are and what you represent.

Its ALWAYS going to be too late for some kids and some teachers. But anyone who refuses to acknowledge that fact want to have their cake and eat it too. You sound like another one.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #99)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:15 PM

104. When I first heard about the shooting a couple of weeks ago.....

the first thought that went through my head was what could we do to make kids safer.

I've been a teacher. I know what we've already done. The schools usually lock the side doors. People who are there to volunteer or substitute teach have to have a badge or sticker. Teachers will ask adults they don't recognize if there's some way they can help them (i.e. What are you doing here?). We have a cop at all the high schools.

It's not enough. What's left?

If all guns were banned, underground business men so to speak would make and sell a new product (like they do with drugs, and btw, I think they should be legal too). We can call the police on them at our own risk. However, some people don't even want cops to have guns. So, we'll have unarmed cops going after drug/gun dealers.

Why do you all believe that all will be right in the world if guns are banned?

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Response to musical_soul (Reply #104)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:32 PM

107. You're dreaming. There are no security officers in all HS's, MS's or elem.

You, the public, will not pay for them. I did not endorse that all guns be banned so stop that shit right now.

NONE of the schools are secure. Locked doors will not suffice when there are fucking windows everywhere to shoot out.

You haven't been a teacher in quite awhile if what you describe as security is all you know. Frankly I don't think you've taught school at all. Much more than what you describe has been done by the schools W/O the help of the public and taxpayer funds.

The fact is, you suck. The public plain ole' sucks at keeping kids and school personnel safe. Since Columbine, you've been told what is needed and nothing has been done. Except to reverse the laws on semi automatic guns. And hasn't that worked out well. Not.

Do you even know what happens when a body is shot by a semi repeatedly? Do you even imagine what went into those coffins? Think the children were all sweetly trussed up in pj's to take a nap? No. Most of them probably had limbs shot completely off.

Get the picture?

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #107)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:01 AM

129. By the way, this is such a great post I wish I could rec it. Thank you.

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Response to musical_soul (Reply #104)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:32 PM

108. "Why do you all believe that all will be right in the world if guns are banned?"

Nobody believes that "all will be right in the world." But we are the only developed nation that does not have strict gun control laws, and we are the only developed nation with a high level of gun violence.

If guns are around, people will shoot each other. It's just truth.

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Response to musical_soul (Reply #97)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:03 PM

100. You know, here's the thing...

Teachers are already required to earn certain types of degrees (depending on the grade and/or subject they plan to teach.) Teachers are required to go through "development training" on a regular basis. Teachers are already subjected to a battery of "evals," evan more so since No Child Left Behind.

I really, really do not think that EXPERT MARKSMAN should be part of the job description.

Very, very few teachers will want to do this. And we will lose teachers.

In short, this is a stupid fricking indefensible idea.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #100)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:23 PM

105. So, don't make it a requirement.

I'm aware of all the grief the NCLB act has brought. I've never seen more educational requirements for a low paying job.

Not everybody is cut out to use or carry a gun. In fact, I'd say that any teacher who said they wanted to carry a gun on campus and couldn't pass a psych evaluation (making sure they weren't paranoid of all the students) shouldn't be allowed to carry one. Their job could stay in place. They just couldn't carry a gun.

However, some people are cut out for it. I'm sure you've heard of "Troops to Teachers." I bet they're cut out for it. It could be a set of volunteers that people didn't know even had the guns.

Consider this idea. The school which Obama's daughters go to have guardsmen. Guess what they have? Guns. Their school is just fine. Those men guarding President Obama? Guess what they have? Guns. I guess that last point is a righty talking about, but it's true. I'll take it back when Obama gives up the armed guards.

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Response to musical_soul (Reply #105)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:30 PM

106. Your argument about the President's daughters is a bit silly.

Do you have armed guards? No. Do I? No. We're not public figures. President Obama and his family receive death threats every day. I don't, and I sincerely hope you don't.

Requirement or not, some teachers (most, I'll bet) will simply refuse to work in an armed camp.

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Response to musical_soul (Reply #105)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:36 PM

112. How about we have Psych eval's for gun owners honey. You first.

Guess what the security guys at Columbine had. Guns.

You're only here to stir up shit.

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:45 PM

98. don't need to think about it for a minute

it's a dumb fucking idea.

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:05 PM

101. This is a freaking ridiculous idea. We will lose teachers.

No one with an ounce of sense or intelligence will ever want to teach under these circumstances.

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:13 PM

103. It would have to be voluntary

Forcing teachers to pack pistols? Obviously not a good idea. Tasers, maybe. But not handguns.



Also, the teachers that were carrying concealed handguns would have to have it on their person ALL THE TIME. From the instant they left their car in the parking lot to walk into the school, to the instant they close the door of their car after a long day of dealing with kids and administrators.

The guns do not go in your purse. The guns do not go in your locker. The guns do no go in your desk.

The gun is always, ALWAYS, in a holster somewhere on your body. Even when in the bathroom for an extended period of time. In a belt holster. In a shoulder holster. In an ankle holster. In Thunderwear (yeah, it's a real product).


Obviously, the teacher would need to pass whatever CCW requirements are in the state, above and beyond whatever background checks are done on teachers. The school system might well do some kind of handling and safety test as well.

Hell, I can see the volunteer teachers spending part of their summer vacation along side the local PD at the shooting range.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #103)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:38 PM

113. Hell, I can see NO TEACHERS volunteering to do this, ever.

It is absolutely the worst idea ever. If there are guns in a school building, rest assured that somehow those guns will be fired. And you will not like the results.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #113)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:40 PM

117. Exactly

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #113)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:47 PM

123. You might be surprised

Lots of ex-military people are teachers. If they can be trusted to tote a rifle for Uncle Sam...


I doubt you would find more than a couple of percentage points of teachers willing to carry concealed in school. So you're talking a couple-three teachers per school. That might make a difference in a crisis.

But let's not forget that many schools already have armed cops or security guards wandering the corridors.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #123)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:40 AM

127. My kid goes to a huge middle school in a very developed, semi-urban area.

If he's in a classroom on the second floor in the east wing, and your "couple percentage points of teachers" are on the first floor/west wing, no, it's not going to make a difference in a crisis. As for ex-military people? "Toting a rifle for Uncle Sam" and toting a rifle in a school are such vastly different things that I don't even see how you can type that with a straight face.

This is not Afghanistan. Spreading more guns willy-nilly among the populace and hoping for the best is not going to curtail violence, it's going to cause more of it.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #127)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:25 AM

144. Because...

...learning to use a gun in the military means that our hypothetical soldier-turned-teacher has already developed the skills to shoot fast and straight, not hesitate or get scared under fire, and maintain tactical and situational awareness.

If a crisis starts, and our hypothetical armed teacher pokes his or her head outside of her classroom and sees and shoots our hypothetical spree shooter while he's roving the hallway looking for the Big Bad Bully or The Teacher That Failed Him or That Fucking Principal, then we've just had a crisis stopped.

It might not work; I freely admit that. But having everybody disarmed at Newtown didn't stop the slaughter there, now did it?



Here's the rub: we're looking at two different modes of violence, if you will. There's the "background" level of violence, in which 95% of murders have a single victim, killed by somebody they know. This kind of murder happens 44 times a day, scattered across the country.

Then we have the very rare, completely irrational spree killer, who's only goal is to go to a crowded place full of people that won't shoot back and kill as many as possible before the cops show up.



The background rate can be lowered by lots of things that we, as a society, can do. A stronger middle class, drug legalization, better mental and physical health care, more cops, better economy, better schools, abortion and contraceptive services readily available and "on demand", etc. Lowering gun ownership rates might help as well.

The spree-shooting rate, though, how do we stop that? I have no good answer. We can say that a lower background rate (remember, ours is down 40% from 1992) is worth a higher spree rate, as saving 10,000 a year in the background rate is worth 100 a year more in the spree-shooting rate. And maybe, probably even, the things I listed for lowering the background rate would also lower the spree-shooting rate.


But if you think that having volunteer armed teachers in schools will cost 10 lives a year in accidents and conflicts (unnecessary deaths) but will stop a spree shooting of 20 lives, then maybe it's worth it.

Or maybe you don't think it will stop a spree shooting, and thus not worth the hypothetical 10 lives a year in accidents and conflicts.



I have no good answer for you. I have economical answers, I have multi-approach answers, but I don't have a magic, silver-bullet solution for you.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #144)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:22 AM

145. Well, that was very interesting.

What would work for me would be ZERO lives lost, especially at a school. For God's sake!

I wasn't asking you for a solution. My own solution would be to have the fewest guns possible in society in general (as in most of Western Europe) and no guns in schools, ever.

And I really wish a veteran would step in here and debunk your rosy "ex-military teacher" notion. You might not have noticed, but we've been involved in a few wars over the last decade or so. I'm willing to bet that a great many ex-military people do not wish to be armed around children that they're teaching, for all kinds of reasons.

The answer to gun violence is not putting more guns all over the place!

Here's something a friend said on Facebook this morning: "For everyone who's all het up about increasing armed security in public places like schools: Remember the shooter at the Empire State Building a few months back ? The police showed up to protect the public and ended in a shoot-out with a guy. Nine bystanders were wounded -- all at the hands of the police. And these cops weren't a bunch of Barney Fifes, either. They were highly-trained NYC police officers. Now replace those officers, who are highly-trained, well-practiced, and mentally prepared, with a bunch of armed civilians. What could *possibly* go wrong?"

Maybe 9 wounded bystanders doesn't sound like a big deal to you, but if one of them was your kid you'd be singing a different tune.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #145)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:02 AM

148. Add to that -the 2 mass shootings here in WI and the man who killed his cop wife were VETS

Clearly we're not taking care of our vets and they, perhaps MORE than the general public, can snap.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #148)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:12 AM

149. Yeah. I don't want to make any sweeping generalizations about veterans obviously, but we as a nation

are not doing right by them. And this issue speaks even MORE to trying to solve problems at their source, rather than just turning ourselves into an armed camp.

We don't need more guns in this society. We need to stop acting like we're in a civil war, and start acting like a modern, civilized nation.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #103)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:38 PM

115. Teachers are hired to teach. If you, Mr. Public, want security-fucking pay for it.

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:42 PM

118. Why would a defensive sidearm be locked up, unable to be used.?

 

You would wear it in a retention holster on a belt.

That's how it is done.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #118)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:09 AM

125. Ya, right! Teachers are going to walk around with holsters? What is this? The wild west??

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Response to jillan (Reply #125)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:45 AM

128. It IS the wild west according to some people! And the civil war is still being fought, too!

And the federal government is the enemy. Therefore all the good guys must be armed!

What could possibly go wrong in a school full of English and calculus teachers carrying holstered weapons, I ask you?

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:57 AM

147. Hardening school buildings and grounds is a more sensible solution.

Another is registration of guns and background checks on new gun purchasers and buyers of used guns. Any one caught with an unregistered gun or a gun missing a serial number should be immediately jailed and subject to more charges and prison time. The federal government regulates large purchases of nitrous fertilizer and attempts to determine what it will be used for but doesn't have any effective regulation of gun ownership. None of us can go to a service station and fill large containers with hundreds of gallons of gasoline without cops being called on us, yet, any of us can buy guns and magazines that fire dozens of shots in one minute - if we were inhumane enough, we could shoot up a public place or a school, or we could use the gun powder from the thousands of rounds that we could freely buy to make horrific explosives that would instantly kill dozens and continue to kill dozens for days after the explosion is set off.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #147)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:26 AM

150. Thanks

Everybody here seems to want to assume that school buildings will continue to be wide open to entrance by anybody.

There were howls of outrage here at the story of the girl who objected to wearing an RFID equipped badge, mainly from those with exactly zero knowledge of how they actually work and how widespread the use of the technology has been in industry for years. Well secured buildings with badge-reading turnstiles would keep the vast majority of these idiots out without having to turn the place into Militia Elementary.

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Response to jillan (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 01:25 AM

160. It's a stupid and crazy idea like EVERYTHING the NRA suggests

 

They want everyone armed, period

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