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Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:59 PM

 

Ouch, the truth, it hurts.

"Itís hard to remember now, more than six weeks later, but there was once a time (six long weeks ago) when liberal Democrats who naÔvely chose to ignore Obamaís consistently conservative first term, his consistently conservative career in the Senate, and his consistently conservative pre-politics career as a University of Chicago law professor, seriously believed that his reelection would lead to a progressive second term.

ďItís time for President Obama to assume the Roosevelt-inspired mantle of muscular liberalism,Ē Anthony Woods wrote in The Daily Beast. ďThis is his moment. He only has to take it.Ē

Itís his moment, all right. And heís taking it. But when it comes to Obama, liberals are once again guilty of some major wishful thinking. Obamaís economic policies are closer to Herbert Hoover than Franklin Roosevelt."
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/12/25

"Both Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., pledged not to touch Social Security as part of negotiations to avoid the year-end fiscal cliff. Reid, however, is backpedaling now that Obama and House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, have agreed to a new measure of inflation that would reduce annual cost-of-living adjustments, or COLAs, for Social Security and other government programs.

Obama and Boehner continue to haggle over how much to raise taxes and cut spending but both have agreed to the new inflation measure formula, making it increasingly likely the proposal would be part of an eventual deal. Boehner proposed the change earlier this month in talks with Obama, and the president included it in a counteroffer this week."
http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/politics/article/Obama-Social-Security-offer-at-odds-with-top-Dems-4129919.php

Still looking like we're all going to be feeling the pain. But hey, it will be hailed as a great victory, making the 'Pugs back down on tax cuts for the rich. It will be trumpeted that the world as we know it was saved because this grand bargain of a deal was cut and we didn't go over the fiscal cliff.

But in the end, when all the fanfare and blather is over, you and I will be feeling the pain, for the rest of our lives.

Let's just go over the damn cliff, it is the best option going.

67 replies, 4660 views

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Reply Ouch, the truth, it hurts. (Original post)
MadHound Dec 2012 OP
JEB Dec 2012 #1
mbperrin Dec 2012 #2
haydukelives Dec 2012 #3
Jamaal510 Dec 2012 #6
nashville_brook Dec 2012 #24
thebeast Dec 2012 #4
thebeast Dec 2012 #5
newfie11 Dec 2012 #15
leftyohiolib Dec 2012 #17
nashville_brook Dec 2012 #26
LongTomH Dec 2012 #58
JReed Dec 2012 #7
Demo_Chris Dec 2012 #8
awoke_in_2003 Dec 2012 #11
NYC Liberal Dec 2012 #9
kickysnana Dec 2012 #10
MadHound Dec 2012 #16
bigtree Dec 2012 #19
kickysnana Dec 2012 #20
bigtree Dec 2012 #21
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #30
ronnie624 Dec 2012 #38
uponit7771 Dec 2012 #27
Yavin4 Dec 2012 #34
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #42
MadHound Dec 2012 #45
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #46
MadHound Dec 2012 #49
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #52
SidDithers Dec 2012 #23
JEB Dec 2012 #12
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #13
NYC Liberal Dec 2012 #14
ronnie624 Dec 2012 #32
NYC Liberal Dec 2012 #36
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #18
nashville_brook Dec 2012 #22
JoePhilly Dec 2012 #25
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #29
alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #40
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #28
MadHound Dec 2012 #31
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #33
ronnie624 Dec 2012 #35
treestar Dec 2012 #41
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #63
ronnie624 Dec 2012 #67
backscatter712 Dec 2012 #60
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #64
sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #37
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #43
sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #51
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #53
sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #54
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #56
sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #57
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #59
Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #48
MadHound Dec 2012 #50
Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #66
sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #55
backscatter712 Dec 2012 #62
alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #39
Skidmore Dec 2012 #65
jillan Dec 2012 #44
Hotler Dec 2012 #47
great white snark Dec 2012 #61

Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:51 PM

1. Off the cliff.

It is the best deal we are going to get. Yeah and fuck anybody that votes for SS cuts.

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Response to JEB (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:52 PM

2. You're right.

Thanks for saying it out loud.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:11 AM

3. Agreed

If Democrats cut Social Security, they might save the Republican party.

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Response to haydukelives (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:28 AM

6. This.

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Response to haydukelives (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:02 AM

24. spot on.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:19 AM

4. You realize republicans didnt even accept this right?

 

You guys are ridiculous ideologues.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:24 AM

5. this is just a step, the CPI affects more than just SS

 

Whether you like it or not steps like this need to be taken. More defense and entitlement cuts are also needed...

This doesnt make anyone more or less progressive. It's just common sense.

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Response to thebeast (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:31 AM

15. SS is paid for and has nothing to do with the deficit

The C-CPI is nuts!

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Response to thebeast (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 08:34 AM

17. cut the war budget and eliminate the cap -

 

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Response to thebeast (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:11 AM

26. you know the BS is starting to flow when it's described as "just common sense"

lets start with the deficit. SS adds nothing to it. by law. it's also solvent for the next 75 years.

next up - the Chained-CPI is a BENEFIT CUT that affects everyone including current retirees, disabled workers, vets, and others Ė even after politicians promised repeatedly that any changes to Social Security would not affect current beneficiaries. The COLA cut is a real threat to the financial security of every American who does currently or will rely on Social Security.

Chained-CPI also hits the oldest and most vulnerable the hardest -- those in old age when other sources of income have been used up. As the chart above below shows, the amount lost by age 85 is more than the amount of money a senior would spend on food in five months.




These are complex issues -- your "common sense" doesn't apply here.

http://strengthensocialsecurity.org/sites/default/files/Chained_CPI_Fact_Sheet_2012_Lame_Duck_FINAL.pdf

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #26)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:49 PM

58. Thanks for the link and the graphic!

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:37 AM

7. The practical v. idealistic

 

That practical versus idealistic argument people use rests on a couple of assumptions that are completely false.

Failing to express ideals, and failing to define principles, is the most impractical thing you can do in politics. Ideals and principles are what motivate people, and motivating people is what practical politics is all about.

Secondly, this "practicality" is based on a false reading of the public that seems to have been implanted into the brains of the Democrats by the right wingers - that the public is conservative and that we need to be careful of going "too far" or being "too radical." When you ignore the half a dozen hot-button cultural war issues with their polarized positions that have nothing to do with Left versus Right, the general public is far to the Left on every issue.

I try to be patient, because the public has been subjected to the most sophisticated big lie propaganda ever in history. The propaganda is defining the "against" position for people, and exactly how and when and where to argue "against" things, and they don't even realize that, which makes for a real mess and tremendous communication difficulties.

On another note did you read through the many comments after the first article you linked to?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:42 AM

8. Cutting Social Security is the LIBERAL thing to do! Or it will be very soon. (nt)

 




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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:20 AM

11. No, it is the dmocratic thing to do...

Very little separates the "two" parties these days.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:55 AM

9. LMAO...the idea that Obama is "consistently conservative" is one of the most laughable

statements I've heard on this site. And I've seen a lot of dumb statements.

Liberal Democrats overwhelmingly support President Obama and his progressive policies. And that's the cold, hard turth. I can see why it might hurt the people who consistently work against Obama, oppose anything he does, who never give him credit, who always see the worst, who refuse to acknowledge any progress, who sit at home stamping their feet when they don't get everything they want, exactly when they want it.

Luckily, those people are an extremely small minority of the Democratic Party, albeit a fairly loud minority.

Yes, let's just "go over the cliff"...FUCK the unemployed, right? Who gives a fuck about people who depend on unemployment benefits to survive? Who cares if they and/or their kids starve? Just fuck 'em, huh? It is utterly amazing there are people who would rather cheerlead for their team and score some political victory instead trying to prevent millions of people from losing unemplyoment benefits and starving. Unfuckingbelievable that this would be posted on a supposedly liberal, Democratic website.

"Obama sucks and screw the poor" seems to be the message.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #9)


Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 07:36 AM

16. Take a look at Obama's record,

 

Passage of a stimulus package that consisted of forty percent tax cuts and credits. Passage of the ACA, otherwise known as Nixon/Heritage Foundation/Romney/Obama care. You go through the record, and it is center right at best.

Oh, and about unemployment, neither it, nor any other program except the Alternative Minimum Tax will be cut right away. That's it, that's all we have to work a deal on, the AMT. Everything else can wait until the new year and a new Congress, that includes unemployment.

So yes, I'll advocate for going over the cliff. It will hurt nobody, and provide a better chance of more favorable legislation. Everything can be taken care of in the new year, retroactively if need be. Governing by these contrived crisis' is doing more damage to our country than anything going over the cliff will do. Time for Obama to call their bluff, stand up and fight. Otherwise it is just going to continue, if not get worse.

Sacrificing the long term good of millions upon millions of Americans is not a Democratic ideal, at least it used not to be one.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 09:38 AM

19. so much care and concern from you for those folks who benefited from the Obama stimulus bill

President Obama's 'Stimulus' Act Lifted At Least 7 Million People Out Of Poverty

____ The Obama team thought a lot about the New Deal while they were putting the stimulus together, but times have changed since the New Deal. The Hoover Dam put 5,000 Americans to work with shovels. A comparable project today would only require a few hundred workers with heavy equipment . . ..

The New Deal was a journey, an era, an aura. The Recovery Act was just a bill on Capitol Hill.

Yet its aid to victims of the Great Recession lifted at least 7 million people out of poverty and made 32 million poor people less poor. It built power lines and sewage plants and fire stations, just like the New Deal. It refurbished a lot of New Deal parks and train stations and libraries.

Most of the money in the stimulus went to unsexy stuff designed to prevent a depression and ease the pain of the recession: aid to help states avoid drastic cuts in public services and public employees; unemployment benefits, food stamps, and other assistance for victims of the downturn; and tax cuts for 95 percent of American workers. And the money that did flow into public works went more toward fixing stuff that needed fixing ó aging pipes, dilapidated train stations, my beloved Everglades ó than building new stuff.

In its first year, the stimulus financed 22,000 miles of road improvements, and only 230 miles of new roads. There were good reasons for that. Repairs tend to be more shovel-ready than new projects, so they pump money into the economy faster. They also pass the do-no-harm test. (New sprawl roads make all kind of problems worse.) And they are fiscally responsible. Repairing roads reduces maintenance backlogs and future deficits; building roads add to maintenance backlogs and future deficits.

The stimulus included $27 billion to computerize our pen-and-paper health care system, which should reduce redundant tests, dangerous drug interactions and fatalities caused by doctors with chicken-scratch handwriting. It doubled our renewable power generation; it essentially launched our transition to a low-carbon economy. It provided a new model for government spending ó with unprecedented transparency, unprecedented scrutiny, and unprecedented competition for the cash . . .


read more: http://www.tampabay.com/news/perspective/what-the-stimulus-worked/1246202


. . . you go on, though, working to suppress and demagogue the economic and social good that this president has helped achieve for the majority of Americans. You're either completely ignorant of it all or just a damn liar.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:41 AM

20. Nobody in my huge family has "benefitted" and the downsides are still to be felt.

Obama, who is looking for quick clean fixes that make things much, much worse down the line is a disaster for America, BECAUSE HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER and if not his party should have given him the skinny on just how things work for people other than the top 5%.

Here you go five more weeks of unemployment but the last thirty years of your life will be grinding poverty because we screwed with Social Security and Medicare when there was for no reason at all.. You may have health insurance but cannot afford to use it because the other side is consolidating price gouging and like mental health care we have, in reality, nonexistent.

My far-right uncle who fought in WWII and then helped rebuild Germany afterwards had a medal that Hitler gave out for people who helped old people so that "proved he was not a monster." Obama has not yet proved he is not a monster and I don't have any hope that he ever will while in office.

I want my Constitutional rights back. I want equal justice for all classes. I want the economy to based on something besides the sand of derivatives and bait and switch of health care reform that is really an insurance give away, I want to stop my tax dollars putting tyrants in only to have to take them out in costly wars and American lives because they did what we expected them to.

Liberals do not support Obama, we only voted for him because we were given no better choice and we will keep holding his feet to the fire until we are an America to be proud of again. He is no longer running for President so now what he does is not political expediency it is his wrong headed Conservative world view.

All the name calling of those who want things better not worse, will not make what is happening right. Go work among the elderly poor now and tell me they can do with much less but it is much, much easier to shill for the 5% and more fun to call names here on DU or to face the truth of the hell America has become under our two parties for so very many Americans who did everything they were told was expected of them as citizens.

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Response to kickysnana (Reply #20)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:50 AM

21. what a ridiculous response

. . . again, denying the very real benefits achieved by this President; just to rail on about whatever else you think he can do unilaterally. You're all over the place. Go back and read govt.101: How a bill becomes law. Then come back and explain in detail just how you expect the president to achieve whatever it is that you want.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #21)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:44 AM

30. Thank you ...

It appears that many here at DU want a dictatorship rather than the Democratic Republic we have.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #30)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:16 PM

38. They don't want a dictatorship.

They want him to veto any cuts to Social Security. Perfectly reasonable, in my opinion, considering it doesn't add to the deficit, and should not, therefore, be considered in discussions of 'balancing the budget'.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:17 AM

27. progressives have and voted for him overwhelmingly

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:32 PM

34. "progressives have and voted for him overwhelmingly" 3 Different Times in Contested Elections

2008 Dem primaries
2008 General Election
2012 General Election

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Response to MadHound (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:27 PM

42. Well, you agree with the Tea Party in your opposition to the stimulus and the ACA, so

perhaps you should not play this little purity game.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #42)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:38 PM

45. Well, first of all, I didn't say I was opposed to the stimulus,

 

In fact at the time, and to this day, I kept pressing for more stimulus, not the watered down, forty percent tax cut, stimulus that finally went through. I wanted that fifteen billion for school construction and repair, yet it got pushed out in order to make room for more tax cuts. So I'm hardly of a mind with the Tea Party on that one.

As far as Nixon/Heritage Foundation/Romney/Obama care goes, I oppose it because it gives the insurance industry a mandated monopoly with very few price controls that are very weak. I oppose it because it is essentially a Republican form of health "reform", and now that we've passed it, we're further away than ever from true single payer UHC. Unlike the Tea Party, which thinks that Obamacare is some sort of socialist program designed to deprive them of their precious bodily fluids or some such.

So, gee, if you look in depth, you'll find my positions are nowhere hear the Tea Party's. But you don't want to look in depth do you. You're going for the quick smear of somebody who dares to criticize Obama. Sad, really sad and transparent.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #45)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:41 PM

46. So, you favor repeal of the ACA like the Tea party does, and thus

going back to the way it was under Bush.

Your policy proposal in the short term for health care--repeal Obamacare--is exactly the same.

Or are you one of those "I oppose Obamacare but don't want it repealed" double-talkers?

P.S. Stimulus was the way it was because it needed 60 votes in the Senate, not because that was Obama's preferred formulation.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #46)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:50 PM

49. Wow, you just don't listen to those who disagree with you, do you?

 

What I stated in my previous post, what I've stated previously on this board, what I've stated for well over thirty years now is that we need single payer UHC, much along the lines of Canada, the British, and other civilized countries.

What we ended up with is Republican care, signed into law by a president who was unable to generate the spine necessary to even help out the American people with the public option THAT HE PROMISED US.

So here we are, left with the insurance industry wet dream that we now call health care reform.

The stimulus is the way it is because apparently the Democrats have lost virtually all of their spine and ability to fight. For instance, that 15 billion for school construction and repair that I mentioned earlier. It wasn't yanked because they needed more tax cuts to sweeten the deal, it was done after the deal was already made, just to make the pot a little sweeter.

It amazes me how much people like Reagan can get done with a Democratic Congress, but a Democratic president is apparently helpless and can't fight because he doesn't have the Congressional super majority. Pathetic, just pathetic. As I've said before, I'm not a big fan of LBJ, but the man knew how to fight, knew how to put the screws to people in order to get their vote. It's past time that modern Dems took a lesson or two from him, instead of whining about how helpless they are without a super majority.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #49)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:59 PM

52. You said you oppose (present tense) Obamacare. Single payer was never

in the cards. Might as well wish that no one ever gets sick. To oppose the law that changed the status quo is to favor the status quo.

Stimulus weakening was because of the filibuster. Needed Specter and one of the Maine senators, plus Joe Lieberman and Blanche Lincoln and Ben Nelson and Kent Conrad. All of them. Zero exceptions. They all got to hold the stimulus hostage.

Blaming that on Obama is deranged.

Senate under Johnson was 67 Democrats, 33 Republicans. House was 289 Democrats and 136 Republicans. Pretty easy to pass legislation with those numbers.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:59 AM

23. Well said...nt

Sid

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:27 AM

12. When I see Ceo's and military contractor's

turning down the thermostat and cutting their medicine doses in half to make it to the end of the month, then I'll support cuts to SS. Yeah, lets punish Grandma and disabled vets for the excesses of Wall Street and MIC. Got to keep pumping those subsidies to the poor starving oil companies.

edit for typo.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:58 AM

13. Damn I love purist liberalism in its raw form.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:03 AM

14. No kidding. Kicking the poor and unemployed to the curb in the middle of winter.

Shameful.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:51 AM

32. I think your posts are designed to misinform. n/t

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #32)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:58 PM

36. Think all you want.

Some people are advocating that we screw over the poor and unemployed, which is what "going over the cliff" will do. If it happens then we will have to deal with it, but it certainly should NOT happen intentionally!

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 09:20 AM

18. The OP is nothing more than a load of claptrap

 

Under the standard set by the OP, 99.999% of the country is conservative.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:55 AM

22. the truth is very hard for some to accept.

Obama has never been a liberal in any concrete sense that would be recognizable to us were he a Regular Joe at our local Dem meetings. He's right-of-center, and very Third Way (read: bankster-friendly).

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:07 AM

25. Who is the real Progressive candidate we should be supporting for 2016.

Obama will be President for 4 more years. That ship has sailed.

A new candidate needs to be found by the end of 2014 ... or you'll be here on DU complaining about the winner of the 2016 election and their lack of true progressive beliefs.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #25)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:37 AM

29. Everyone cries out for this mythical ...

Progressive Tough-guy/girl candidate that can win a national election; but no one is coming forward to be that candidate. I suspect there is no such animal.

Which is good for the Progressive Movement because should that candidate appear, Progessives will be facing the "Ron Paul/Libertarian" reality. Sounds good; but can't win.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:24 PM

40. Our pseudo-progressives excel at message board snark and rec cing each other's posts

They're not so good at, y'know, actually getting anything done.

National election?

I'd be shocked if they could get somebody elected to a town council in a liberal district.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:31 AM

28. Why is it so difficult ...

when talking (complaining) about the "new measure of inflation that would reduce annual cost-of-living adjustments, or COLAs, for Social Security and other government programs", to include the fact that the language of that agreement provided for exemptions and protections for the vulnerable beneficiaries?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:46 AM

31. What are these exceptions?

 

I've yet to hear of any exceptions being offered and would appreciate any links you have that verify that exceptions are being included in the deal.

But exceptions aside, everybody who depends upon SS and Medicare will see their quality of life diminish, as their benefits are cut and cut again. There is absolutely no need to inflict that upon anybody, vulnerable or otherwise.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:15 PM

33. Here ya go ...

MR. CARNEY: -- part of his -- if I could please answer Samís question, Iíd appreciate it. And the President did include it in his counterproposal, his counteroffer, as part of this process, as part of the negotiation process. I would note that this is a technical change -- would be if instated -- to the way that economists calculate inflation, and it would affect every program that has -- that uses the CPI in its calculations. And so itís not directed at one particular program; it would affect every program that uses CPI. There are also -- as part of the Presidentís proposals, he would make sure that the most vulnerable were exempted out from this change.

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10022030190



It's as much as has been said about anything in the rumored deal.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:56 PM

35. It doesn't matter.

Social Security should not be a part of discussions of 'balancing the budget'. I thought you were opposed to austerity.

We need more social programs and less militarism.

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #35)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:25 PM

41. why not? It is not means tested.

Rich people get it.

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #35)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:17 PM

63. So long as we have a divided government ...

any issue you or your opposition wants on the table WILL be on the table. Your wishing otherwise doesn't matter. It's the nature of politics and governance.

I do oppose austerity; but the gop ... the other part of our government doesn't. So our role in this drama is to protect the vulnerable; which President Obama is doing.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #63)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 02:30 AM

67. I see.

I need to just shut up and accept things as they are, because my opinion doesn't matter. I don't think so. I don't care if you dismiss my 'wishes'. That's a rather lame rebuttal. If my opinion doesn't matter, then neither does the opinion of anyone else.

The nature of politics is what we, the People, make it. The Founders said on many occasions, that we have an obligation to oppose the things our government does, that we know are wrong. Our government and our political system are in dire need of reform. Unquestioning acceptance of the status quo will prevent reform.

My role in this "drama", is to oppose cuts to Social Security, even though I am certain they will occur. It has a dedicated revenue source from America's working class, and that is who it belongs to, not to political and corporate elites, who have been using it for decades to fund militarism and tax breaks for the rich. What they are really doing now, is trying to figure out how to avoid repaying what they have plundered.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:06 PM

60. That's my impression.

For all the sackcloth and ashes that have been on display here, my impression is that chained CPI, combined with adjustments to keep the elderly from getting shafted (because spending patterns of elderly & retired are a bit different from spending patterns of Americans in general) won't be harsh at all.

Of course, the Republicans rejected it, so now it's time for the Thelma and Louise Plan.

For all the impugning of President Obama, I do believe he's a decent man, even if I don't agree with everything he does.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #60)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:25 PM

64. Well ...

I'll answer my own question. It's difficult for them because it exposes their faux concern for the elderly, poor, disabled and otherwise vulnerable. Or, it exposes their ignorance on this issue ... "I don't need to trouble myself with the nuts and bolts of the issue ... My favorite economic pundit blogged about it yesterday, so that's good enough for me!"

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:03 PM

37. The more I think about what happens if we go over the Cliff, the better I like

that option.

For one thing, it will cut military spending significantly, one reason why I don't think it will happen.

And the Tax Holiday which deprives the SS fund of revenue, would expire. Yes it will mean we will pay a little more, but that is an investment in OUR future.

There would be no cuts to SS, no Chained CPI.

The Bush tax cuts for the wealthy would expire, and overall these effects would provide more revenue for the Fed Govt and would reduce the deficit, which is what they are all claiming they want to do.

The alternative proposals will cost us too, a lot.

So imo, we should do nothing.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #37)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:28 PM

43. So, extending unemployment benefits and preventing a massive cut to

Medicare payments to care providers and a tax increase on the working poor is okay with you too?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #43)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:57 PM

51. So cutting SS and allowing some of the Bush tax cuts to be extended is okay

with you?

The UE issue should be dealt with and always should have been, separately. However, this 'austerity' garbage will do nothing to increase employment and I am for not needing UE, how about you?

If this happens, then Congress will be forced to focus on GROWTH not AUSTERITY. To focus on Job Creation, NOT cutting spending that seems to all be coming from the working class while jobs that provide a decent living are still not available.

I am for a total change in what has been going on which is why we elected Democrats. NOT to follow the lead of Republicans which is all they are doing, but to LEAD the way OUT of the mess created by Republicans.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:00 PM

53. Who is Speaker of the House again? nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #53)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:13 PM

54. Who controls the Senate and the WH again?

No matter what Congress decides to do, we have control of the Senate and the WH. I call that a fantastic bargaining position. And I know if Republicans had that kind of control, they would be reminding Dems every minute that they better pass something THEY will be willing to accept.

Funny how no matter how much power Dems have as in 2008 and now again, they just can't seem to use it according to what we are being told here on DU.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #54)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:38 PM

56. We have the upper hand, but they also have considerable power.

I think we're better off going over the cliff short term, but the calculus gets complicated and painful regardless of which way things go.

They will have to give up more than we do, but that does not mean that we won't have to give something up.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #56)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:43 PM

57. I agree. And if Dems play their cards right they can blame Republicans for

higher taxes, an anathema to THEIR base, and force them back to negotiations on the reductions Dems wanted in the first place. This would force them to either support the higher taxes triggered by going over the Cliff, or support at least some of the Dem proposals to bring back some of the tax relief for the working class. IF they do not want to be wiped out in 2014.

I think this is the way to play chess. All the while keeping the people informed that it is Republicans who want to keep their taxes high.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #57)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:50 PM

59. Higher taxes on the wealthy are going to happen, guaranteed.

Obama's already said "I get that for free" to Boehner.

The stickier question involves stuff like unemployment benefit extensions, Mediicare doc fix, stimulus or infrastructure spending--stuff we really want to happen, but that will require a deal with Republicans since they're not currently part of the law.

I'm encouraged that Obama has refused to negotiate over the debt ceiling.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #37)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:47 PM

48. There will be extremely high tax increases on a lot of lower-income families

Seriously, it would be an utter disaster for many moderate income families with children.

http://www.whitehouse.gov//sites/default/files/docs/state-reports/Hispanic-Fact-Sheet.pdf

Please take a look at this fact sheet, which is billed as being for Hispanics but applies to all families in this position. The tax increases given don't account for the expiration of the payroll tax cut. For a family with two kids earning about 50K, the total tax increase would be over $2,500 of income. That's increase, not total taxes.

The lower earning heads of households would be hit the worse - the example given of the mother of three may be a bit extreme, but it is factually correct. In addition, she would also pay an additional $290 in extra FICA, so that woman would face a total lost income (in the form of extra taxes and lost rebates) of $2,685.

With tax increases like this, massive defaults on rent and mortgages and car loans are expected. We would have an increase in homeless families, a huge increase of mortgage delinquencies (which are already rising rapidly, despite what you read in the news).

We would have rapidly tightened home loan standards, a big drop in retail employment and all sorts of ancillary problems.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #48)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:54 PM

50. Yes, but the thing is, these tax increases won't necessarily take effect if we go over the cliff.

 

Federal agencies are probably going to delay the spending cuts for awhile in order to give Congress the time it needs to get its shit together. A middle class tax cut package can be pushed through, with its effects retroactive. In fact about the only real thing that needs to be done is to renew the Alternative Minimum Tax patch, the rest can be dealt with in the new year, with a new Congress.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #50)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:12 PM

66. The pain for many will be immediate and the economic effects won't be pretty

It's really a serious threat - the economy is bad now and can't withstand very much of this.

As soon as withholding changes, many wage earners are going to be in shock.

Most of the fiscal cliff occurs not from spending cuts - that is minor. Most of the fiscal cliff is in tax increases, which are not minor and will affect many lower-income taxpayers very severely.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #48)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:22 PM

55. Well, it is nice to see someone finally mention the increase in homeless families

which so far as I recall, no one seems to care about at all. Are you aware of how many millions of Americans lost their homes because of corruption on Wall St and rather than prosecute the perpetrators, they were bailed out, agreements were made to avoid holding them accountable, and nothing has been done to help those thrown in many cases, illegally, out of their homes?

I'm not buying that anyone in DC cares one bit about the working class who have received no help, and I know this from personal experience, in retrieving what was stolen from them.

Let's start by helping the people to get some accountability from the crooks who caused all of this.

Is there anything being done to stop the illegal foreclosures eg, as was done in Iceland as soon as the corruption was uncovered? That can be done separately and Dems can start to initiate investigations into what happened to the money that disappeared from our economy. Start prosecuting the crooks, confiscating their ill-gotten gains, nationalizing failed institutions and start creating jobs.

Scare tactics don't work so well anymore on a population that has already been devastated by the huge losses they have already sustained and about which nothing has been done.

Those tactics only work on people who have a lot to lose. That has already happened to millions of Americans.

Now it's time to stop the game playing and to start working on real solutions.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #37)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:37 PM

62. I'm all for the Thelma and Louise Plan!

Since the GOP continues to be intransigent, I believe the Fiscal Speed Bump will do just fine for leaving the right-wingers twisting in the wind until they decide to cooperate.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:23 PM

39. Make a deal = Obama sucks; Don't make a deal = Obama sucks



I wish you many recs from your friends on DU. Since your rants are generally harmless anyway, it would be silly to criticize your little hobby.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #39)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:28 PM

65. Thank you.

It gets piled high, deep and smelly in here sometimes.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:31 PM

44. Well - I think President Obama is a better campaigner than Leader. Off the cliff we go...

Hopefully!!

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:46 PM

47. Now is not the time to point fingers. Our president can do no wrong. n/t

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:32 PM

61. Whose truth? Your jaundiced version?

Ouch. The lack of understanding how the government works. It hurts.

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