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Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:49 PM

 

OK...the million dollar question. Why would you want to kill someone?

Seriously - let's just say one of you is telling the truth about having single-handedly defended your family from a horde of crazy hippies on meth and PCP...

You kill them all. Whoopee!

How now, do you sleep at night?

How do you convince yourself you are a good person, even though you killed a mother's son, or a mother's daughter?

Being blase and Rambo just shows your antipathy...

216 replies, 9784 views

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Reply OK...the million dollar question. Why would you want to kill someone? (Original post)
Taverner Dec 2012 OP
loli phabay Dec 2012 #1
Taverner Dec 2012 #4
loli phabay Dec 2012 #13
Ed Suspicious Dec 2012 #179
socialindependocrat Dec 2012 #201
loli phabay Dec 2012 #208
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #168
condoleeza Dec 2012 #83
loli phabay Dec 2012 #89
condoleeza Dec 2012 #92
underthematrix Dec 2012 #130
tridim Dec 2012 #2
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #70
condoleeza Dec 2012 #84
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #95
condoleeza Dec 2012 #154
lunasun Dec 2012 #178
green for victory Dec 2012 #158
pintobean Dec 2012 #3
RebelOne Dec 2012 #5
Taverner Dec 2012 #9
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #72
Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #80
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #91
Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #101
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #110
Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #120
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #122
Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #128
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #132
Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #137
green for victory Dec 2012 #159
RebelOne Dec 2012 #100
Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #103
RebelOne Dec 2012 #99
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #114
Confusious Dec 2012 #94
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #111
discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2012 #118
X_Digger Dec 2012 #126
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #131
X_Digger Dec 2012 #135
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #138
Bake Dec 2012 #214
jberryhill Dec 2012 #46
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #169
jberryhill Dec 2012 #172
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #173
jberryhill Dec 2012 #183
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #188
jberryhill Dec 2012 #192
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #194
jberryhill Dec 2012 #196
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #203
Jenoch Dec 2012 #174
jberryhill Dec 2012 #184
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #187
zbdent Dec 2012 #6
SomethingFishy Dec 2012 #18
Whovian Dec 2012 #26
Taverner Dec 2012 #28
zbdent Dec 2012 #69
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #7
Taverner Dec 2012 #23
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #82
charlyvi Dec 2012 #8
Taverner Dec 2012 #11
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #17
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #34
Taverner Dec 2012 #35
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #53
hunter Dec 2012 #75
pipoman Dec 2012 #78
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #170
MrSlayer Dec 2012 #10
Taverner Dec 2012 #12
MrSlayer Dec 2012 #25
Taverner Dec 2012 #33
MrSlayer Dec 2012 #64
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #38
Taverner Dec 2012 #42
MrSlayer Dec 2012 #77
Coyote_Tan Dec 2012 #81
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #14
Taverner Dec 2012 #31
SomethingFishy Dec 2012 #15
Taverner Dec 2012 #19
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #209
Paladin Dec 2012 #212
jal777 Dec 2012 #16
Taverner Dec 2012 #20
jal777 Dec 2012 #27
Taverner Dec 2012 #30
jal777 Dec 2012 #55
sir pball Dec 2012 #21
Taverner Dec 2012 #29
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #22
Taverner Dec 2012 #24
jp76 Dec 2012 #163
DollarBillHines Dec 2012 #32
Taverner Dec 2012 #37
DollarBillHines Dec 2012 #48
Taverner Dec 2012 #50
SomethingFishy Dec 2012 #51
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #90
Union Scribe Dec 2012 #146
slackmaster Dec 2012 #36
Taverner Dec 2012 #40
slackmaster Dec 2012 #44
Jenoch Dec 2012 #136
ieoeja Dec 2012 #171
Jenoch Dec 2012 #175
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #191
ieoeja Dec 2012 #200
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #206
Taitertots Dec 2012 #39
Taverner Dec 2012 #41
DollarBillHines Dec 2012 #56
Taverner Dec 2012 #58
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #98
Coyote_Tan Dec 2012 #129
Taitertots Dec 2012 #62
atreides1 Dec 2012 #87
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #43
Taverner Dec 2012 #45
Nye Bevan Dec 2012 #66
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TheDebbieDee Dec 2012 #112
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #115
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ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #96
dkf Dec 2012 #47
Taverner Dec 2012 #52
dkf Dec 2012 #86
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #97
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jmowreader Dec 2012 #49
Robb Dec 2012 #54
Taverner Dec 2012 #59
Jenoch Dec 2012 #57
Flatpicker Dec 2012 #60
OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #61
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #63
cbrer Dec 2012 #65
jal777 Dec 2012 #71
The Straight Story Dec 2012 #67
PD Turk Dec 2012 #68
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #102
Gregorian Dec 2012 #73
Coyote_Tan Dec 2012 #74
Robb Dec 2012 #76
Coyote_Tan Dec 2012 #108
Robb Dec 2012 #113
Coyote_Tan Dec 2012 #125
Peregrine Dec 2012 #79
Gregorian Dec 2012 #85
renie408 Dec 2012 #105
Jenoch Dec 2012 #141
baldguy Dec 2012 #88
man4allcats Dec 2012 #93
renie408 Dec 2012 #104
exboyfil Dec 2012 #106
devilgrrl Dec 2012 #109
smccarter Dec 2012 #116
rrneck Dec 2012 #117
ecstatic Dec 2012 #119
TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #145
HockeyMom Dec 2012 #202
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #204
TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #216
X_Digger Dec 2012 #127
valerief Dec 2012 #133
OneMoreDemocrat Dec 2012 #134
RedCappedBandit Dec 2012 #139
doc03 Dec 2012 #140
jmg257 Dec 2012 #142
rl6214 Dec 2012 #143
flvegan Dec 2012 #147
Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2012 #148
arely staircase Dec 2012 #211
beevul Dec 2012 #149
HEyHEY Dec 2012 #150
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In_The_Wind Dec 2012 #155
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zappaman Dec 2012 #157
easttexaslefty Dec 2012 #160
marions ghost Dec 2012 #161
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NeedleCast Dec 2012 #164
tavernier Dec 2012 #165
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Nevernose Dec 2012 #176
DrDan Dec 2012 #177
patrice Dec 2012 #180
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Jim Warren Dec 2012 #205
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Bake Dec 2012 #213
WinkyDink Dec 2012 #215

Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:51 PM

1. easy question you kill someone to save yourself or someone else from death or serious injury

 

Some people cant live with it but as a species we have killed others since we crawled out of the swamp.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:53 PM

4. And you are saying this is a good thing?

 

We also used to rape a lot - but we have started getting over that...

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Response to Taverner (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:57 PM

13. yes its a good thing if you kill someone to protect others

 

Or do you think that you should just watch someone seiously injure or kill another and you have the means to stop the threat.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:18 PM

179. I think he's going to the sense of tragedy in "having" to kill someone that is absent in most

internet Rambo posts. Even in your post you seem completely comfortable with the idea that someone in the altercation needs to die, and it best not be you. It's a very binary position that probably offers the killing party some comfort, but doesn't really address the turmoil that should make the decision to pull the trigger wrought with a whole spectrum of emotions and mixed feelings and perhaps even self doubt. Killing people, if we are empathetic human beings, should not be so clear cut as http-rambos would have it seem.

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Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #179)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:34 PM

201. You resolve your feelings before you put yourself in the position.

Just because people don't include their feelings about shooting someone
doesn't mean that haven't thought them thru.

It makes no sense to wait until you are in a situation to ask yourself
wheather you can rationalize the action.

Someone who decides not to protect themselves or in this case - to not
kill another individual - Do they still choose to use a bat and injure the
bad guy? Or do they feel that if they do not resist that the intruder will
take what they want and then leave.

Just asking...

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Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #179)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:40 PM

208. in a life or death confrontation i am happy if someone dies as long as its the other guy

 

Over my lifetime ive wrestled with some of my decisions but as i am still here and in good health then i made the correct decision and i sleep soundly. For some people the decision to cross that barrier will not or can not come but we are all different.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:24 AM

168. Used to?

In many societies rape is almost considered a man's right. Even here it is rarely reported.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:59 PM

83. Who says we've actually crawled out of the swamp? Wouldn't appear so n/t

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Response to condoleeza (Reply #83)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:06 PM

89. pretty much evolution does or do you still think we are single cell creatures

 

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #89)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:10 PM

92. Jury is out on that one

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:32 PM

130. I don't think it's the right question because

most people DO NOT WANT to kill anyone. However, if the person is in a life and death struggle for their life, they will most often choose to save their life or that another.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:52 PM

2. I ran over a squirrel once and couldn't sleep for three days.

I don't get it either.

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Response to tridim (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:44 PM

70. Me too.

It was horrifying, but a possum in my case. I tried to pick it up, but it tried to bite me, and then it died. That was back in the 80s and I remember it as if it were yesterday because of how deeply it affected me.

A person attempting an attack against me or my family/pets isn't the same as an innocent animal who is out to hurt no one though and finds him/herself in the wrong place/time.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #70)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:01 PM

84. Had to drown a gerbil

that my 3 year old had squeezed the intestines out of, have never cooked the dinner I was making that night again and it was 37 years ago.

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Response to condoleeza (Reply #84)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:11 PM

95. You win.

That is horrifying. I am sorry you had to deal with that.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #95)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:34 AM

154. It's one of those moments you never forget, Ruby

I can literally still feel the gerbil in my left hand as I held it under the water and picture the bathroom in it's entirety. I've killed mosquitoes w/o any regret, but I still escort spiders outside.

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Response to condoleeza (Reply #154)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:15 PM

178. Poor baby...thank you for helping it out of prolonged pain

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Response to tridim (Reply #2)


Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:53 PM

3. I would imagine it would be a lot

easier than if one didn't defend their family.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:54 PM

5. If someone tried to break into my house and I had a gun (which I don't),

I would shoot them with no regrets.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:55 PM

9. You may say that now.

 

Would you say that to the mother?

Could you look her in the eyes and say coldly that her son/daughter deserved to die?

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Response to Taverner (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:47 PM

72. Honestly? "Sorry for your luck".

Sorry your kid was a sociopath.

Sorry your kid tried to break into my house with God knows what evil attempt.

Sorry society failed your kid, but at the end of the day - he/she was ultimately responsible for his/her actions, and ruining the lives of his/her fellow human beings ended up being a losing hand.

Should I continue?

Bottom line - don't fuck with people and they won't fuck with you back.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #72)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:56 PM

80. So who did all those Newtown first graders

fuck with?

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #80)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:07 PM

91. Perhaps I missed something.

I am an unabashed gun grabber responding to a thread about how I would feel if I killed a man in self-defense. As I said below, in that situation, I would eat a sandwich over the body while waiting for law enforcement to show up and pull the fingernails that used to be attached to my body out of his balls and what is left of his eye sockets, and then sleep like a baby that night.

What did I miss that these 6 year olds and the teaching/admin staff of the school did prior to the shootings to warrant your response to me?

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #91)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:23 PM

101. I think you just think so....

While I would never, ever deny your right to defend yourself, I don't believe you would be as unaffected by it as you think. It would take a true sociopath to be that nonchalant about killing someone. Obviously you're not a sociopath, or you wouldn't be a self described 'liberal' nor would you have been offended by my question.


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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #101)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:38 PM

110. Once, I had a dream that someone grabbed my cat

and in the dream, I found him as he was getting ready to physically torture her. That mental image is as clear in my mind as if it was reality (still makes me shudder) - and I can assure you, just as I will retch and vomit upon coming across stories of animal abuse, I am equally capable of going medieval on some asshole upon witnessing it. Sitting here today, I can assure you that I would have no hesitation. Wish I didn't have it in me, but I do. Not talking about CIA/Intelligence type work - I am referring to stopping an attack in process. Hell, I can't even watch ASPCA commercials and deleted Sheryl Crow's Arms of an Angel from my music library because of how much of a trigger it is for me.

Shooting someone is would give me no relief, much less pleasure, but if I came upon someone harming an animal or child (think Sandusky in the shower with a 10 year old), I would swing a bat and worry about the implications of it later.

You can color me psychotic. Thank God I have never been in the situation where my adrenaline is running the show.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #110)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:54 PM

120. No, I don't think you are the least bit psychotic....

I would react in much the same way. I simply think if I, and you, actually killed someone it would have an effect on us, after the fact. I applaud any female who takes responsibility for her own safety.

I have to switch channels when the ASPCA commercials come on and I am a regular contributor... Or the commercials about the polar bears and disappearing wild tigers.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #120)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:09 PM

122. I honestly believe that if ever confronted with it live and in person,

I will go into adrenaline overload and black the whole episode out, not remembering a thing in the morning. Every time I see on the local news about someone tossing a dog from; or dragging one behind a moving car (or any number of equally atrocious things I won't mention), my mind goes to "what if you witnessed it" mode, and the mental image always ends up with me in the local jail or hospital with no memory of what happened.

I have a tremendous tolerance for people and their idiosyncraties (I'm a progressive, afterall), but zero, nada, none, no tolerance for evil for the sake of evil.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #122)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:27 PM

128. You're a good person

Ruby the Liberal...which only reinforces my opinion. I hope for your sake, you never witness such atrocities. I'd have to arrange bail for you and the police would be certain to refresh your memory in minute detail.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #128)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:41 PM

132. LOL! Glad to know you would volunteer.



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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #132)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:17 PM

137. But of course...

Can't let down a liberal sister can I?

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #101)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:14 AM

159. "Did we just kill a kid?" he asked the man sitting next to him.

 

It would take a true sociopath to be that nonchalant about killing someone.

Did you read this excellent piece in Spiegel.de?

The Woes of an American Drone Operator

Bryant saw a flash on the screen: the explosion. Parts of the building collapsed. The child had disappeared. Bryant had a sick feeling in his stomach.

"Did we just kill a kid?" he asked the man sitting next to him.

"Yeah, I guess that was a kid," the pilot replied.




"Was that a kid?" they wrote into a chat window on the monitor.

Then, someone they didn't know answered, someone sitting in a military command center somewhere in the world who had observed their attack. "No. That was a dog," the person wrote.

They reviewed the scene on video. A dog on two legs?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/pain-continues-after-war-for-american-drone-pilot-a-872726.html

sanctimonious bs fills this country

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #80)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:23 PM

100. This has nothing to do with the Newtown kids.

They were not adults breaking into homes.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #100)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:27 PM

103. I think people who believe they can kill and be indifferent to it

are fooling themselves. I have no problem with anyone defending themselves, loved ones or home. I just think people need to realize that killing someone is a life changing event for the mentally and emotionally healthy.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #72)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:20 PM

99. Thank you. n/t

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #99)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:44 PM

114. The mind boggles, sister.

Simply boggles.

"If you beat that man to death with a bat trying to stop him from raping you, what on earth will you say to his mother"?

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Response to Taverner (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:11 PM

94. The mother didn't raise them right.

I had an 18 year old kid try to kill me with a gun.

If I had something to shoot back with, I would have had no regrets over killing him.

What is the person who killed me going to to say to my father, mother?

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Response to Taverner (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:42 PM

111. "If you beat that man to death to stop him from raping you, whatever will you say to his mother"?

Quick question - do you sound this shit out in your head before typing it, or just open the gates and let it fly?

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #111)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:51 PM

118. +3 :)

1 for each time I started laughing and couldn't stop for 20 or more seconds.

Thanks

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #111)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:22 PM

126. He's aiming for the greatest page, no matter how asinine a statement must be made.

Not the first OP from this poster in the last couple of days with a dose of outrage + wharrrgarble!11!

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #126)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:40 PM

131. Hes got 7 recs to go for that, and

just noticed that he was locked from his own thread by a jury, so can no longer incite in this one.

I missed the other drama fests. Wish I had missed this one. My stomach is churning at the better-liberal-than-thou shit.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #131)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:50 PM

135. It has to be a caricature. (At least I fervently hope so.)

Who knows, maybe he's trying to blarrrgh his way to notoriety, as if virtual 'attaboy's on DU are some kind of weird currency.

Either that, or he's tired of seeing gun threads in GD, and is trying to piss off the admins enough to revert to the no-guns-in-GD rule. But that's a stretch.

Happy Boxing Day!

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #135)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:18 PM

138. Happy Boxing Day to you as well!

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Response to Taverner (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 07:44 PM

214. Yes, I would say to that mother that she must've done a really shitty job.

So it's HER fault. There. That was easy.

Bake

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:26 PM

46. What if it was a drunk neighbor thinking it was his house?


Do you think you might want to get some idea of why a person is trying to break into your house first?

This is typically how family members get shot.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #46)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:37 AM

169. No. He has no business breaking into my home.

My gun has a light attached to it. I will see the person before I shoot, so I know that it isn't family, or a fireman trying to rescue me, or anything like that. Non-family, illegally breaking in, he gets shot.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #169)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:24 AM

172. "illegally breaking in"


Yeah, that's the problem. Just because someone is breaking into your house does not mean they are doing something illegal.

It could be someone who is merely confused. In order to be illegally breaking in, they have to have the intent to do something illegal.

This kind of thing happens fairly often.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-09-28/news/sns-rt-us-usa-connecticut-shootingbre88r17r-20120928_1_connecticut-man-ski-mask-shiny-object

(Reuters) - A Connecticut man responding to his sister's call for help during an apparent burglary at her home next door, shot and killed a masked intruder who turned out to be his own teenage son, state police said on Friday.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #172)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:02 PM

173. Confused break in is still illegal, and will be shot.

Cops and Firemen can break in for emergencies. They aren't illegal, and will be in uniform. Someone who is "confused" should not be breaking in. I am not going to play twenty questions asking someone who has just kicked my door in why they did that. They will be shot. The guy that killed his son was tragic, but his son was wearing a ski-mask and was a burglar. That was a rough way to find out that his son was a criminal.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #173)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:41 PM

183. A legal scholar you are not

Last edited Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Being confused is not illegal. Under those circumstances, you will go to jail.

People with Alzheimer's disease wander off and walk into the wrong home ALL OF THE TIME.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #183)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:43 PM

188. You are the one who is not a legal scholar.

While it is true that being confused is not illegal, BREAKING AND ENTERING IS EXTREMELY ILLEGAL.

I do not have to determine his state of mind. I only need to know that he has illegally broken into my residence while I am there.

For your edification, here is the law: http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R/billtext/html/SB00378F.HTM



AN ACT
relating to the use of force or deadly force in defense of a person.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:

SECTION 1. Section 9.01, Penal Code, is amended by adding
Subdivisions (4) and (5) to read as follows:
(4) "Habitation" has the meaning assigned by Section
30.01.
(5) "Vehicle" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.01.
SECTION 2. Section 9.31, Penal Code, is amended by amending
Subsection (a) and adding Subsections (e) and (f) to read as follows:
(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the
actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted
use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed
to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied
habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;


(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the
actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual
assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and
(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or
ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

(e) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the force is used, who has not provoked the person against
whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the force is used is not required to retreat before
using force as described by this section.

f) For purposes of Subsection (a), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (e) reasonably believed that the
use of force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.

SECTION 3. Section 9.32, Penal Code, is amended to read as follows:



Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.
(a) A person justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual
assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
(b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that
subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied
habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or
(C) was committing or attempting to commit an
offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);
(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and
(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity,
other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used
force committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the actor].
c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person
against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not
required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this
section.
(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (c) reasonably believed that the use of deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.

SECTION 4. Section 83.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, is amended to read as follows:

Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY .

A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9 , Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of force or deadly force, as applicable .



SECTION 5. (a) Sections 9.31 and 9.32, Penal Code, as amended by this Act, apply only to an offense committed on or after the effective date of this Act. An offense committed before the effective date of this Act is covered by the law in effect when the offense was committed, and the former law is continued in effect for this purpose. For the purposes of this subsection, an offense is committed before the effective date of this Act if any element of the offense occurs before the effective date.


(b) Section 83.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, as amended by this Act, applies only to a cause of action that accrues on or after the effective date of this Act. An action that accrued before the effective date of this Act is governed by the law in effect at the time the action accrued, and that law is continued in effect for that purpose.


SECTION 6. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.


So there is the law. Castle Doctrine and Stand-Your-Ground and Civil Immunity, all in one bill. Don't break into an occupied residence, or business, in Texas. You are likely not to survive. And nothing will happen to the resident. It doesn't matter if you are drunk, playing a prank, confused, or whatever - breaking and entering is illegal and very dangerous.














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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #188)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:39 PM

192. You fail to recognize the circular argument you are making

"unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully"

Someone who has Alzheimer's disease or is otherwise under a mistake of fact as to whether it is their residence, is not entering "unlawfully".

They are entering by mistake. These kinds of mistakes happen all of the time. And, no, it is not an unlawful entry absent intent.

You can keep bleating the words "unlawful entry" as a defense to shooting someone all you want to, but it is absolutely clear you do not understand what those words mean.

While you are digging around in the Texas code, be sure to make a stop here:

MISTAKE:

Sec. 8.02. MISTAKE OF FACT. (a) It is a defense to prosecution that the actor through mistake formed a reasonable belief about a matter of fact if his mistaken belief negated the kind of culpability required for commission of the offense.


Someone entering your home by mistake is not doing so unlawfully. But that doesn't apply to lesser degrees of manslaughter which would apply in the event you were mistaken about their intent and shot them:

(b) Although an actor's mistake of fact may constitute a defense to the offense charged, he may nevertheless be convicted of any lesser included offense of which he would be guilty if the fact were as he believed.

But... by all means... continue believing you have the right to shoot anyone you want. You'll wind up like a lot of other people who believed the same thing.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #192)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:55 PM

194. "Breaking and entering" then.

I will admit to a bit of impression in my use of terms. However, notice that I did say that my doors and windows are locked. So simple illegal entry without intent will not occur, as the intruder will have to make a forceful entry. That makes it an illegal and forceful entry, and I don't have to ask if he is at the wrong house, or why he has broken into my home.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #194)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:04 PM

196. Like I said, believe what you want

There are numerous examples of confused people - whether in what is called a "fugue state", Alzheimer's, or on some kind of medication - forcibly breaking into homes they believed were theirs and which they believed they locked themselves out of.

That is called a "mistake", and it is not a crime.

Fire away, Tex.


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/4615946/tom-cruises-drunk-neighbour-breaks-into-his-home-by-mistake.html

Days Of Blunder: Tom Cruise's drunk neighbour breaks into his home by mistake

...
When cops grilled the tipsy trespasser they discovered he lived next door to the actor and had tried to break into the wrong house.




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Response to jberryhill (Reply #196)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:23 PM

203. Read the law:


...a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;


The mere fact of his illegal, forceful entry allows me to presume that deadly force is needed on my part. Since that law was enacted there have been a bunch of burglars killed in Texas, with no charges filed.

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/Texas-Woman-Opens-Fire-On-Burglars-Kills-One-176110651.html

DALLAS (October 27, 2012)—A Dallas woman who walked in on three men who were burglarizing her home early Saturday, including one armed with a handgun, opened fire on the three, killing one, police said.


http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/02/19/burglar-shot-killed-while-breaking-into-rural-home/
ALVARADO (CBSDFW.COM) – A man visiting a home in rural Alvarado shot and killed a suspect who was attempting to break into the residence early Sunday morning, said Johnson County Sheriff’s Department spokesman Tim Jones.
SNIP
The visitor told investigators that he fired at the suspect multiple times as he tried to enter the home through a back door.

The suspect, identified as Torey David Orgeron, 34, ran to the backyard and collapsed in the grass, Jones said. He was dead at the scene


http://www.khou.com/news/texas-news/Intruders-shot-at-Fort-Worth-landscaping-firm-1-dead-130019268.html
FORT WORTH — Fort Worth police said the owner of a business shot two suspected burglars early Saturday morning, killing one of them.

The owners of Hermann Landscape Company, in the 1100 block of South Hughes Avenue, told investigators that the business had experienced several burglaries over the past few days, so they decided to remain on the property Friday night.

Three people were observed trying to break in at around 2 a.m. Saturday.

The owner, whose name was not given, said one of the individuals had a "shiny object" in his hand, and fired a shotgun in self-defense.

That man, age 22, died at the scene. The other two burglary suspects allegedly began to run toward the owner, who fired again, multiple times.


I can easily find more examples, but those will suffice for now. Being a burglar in Texas is dangerous business. We are not required to talk to them and ask why they are there, what their intentions are, would they like a cup of coffee while we talk, etc.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #172)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:03 PM

174. That story is tragic

but it is not about someone breaking into a house. That happened outside.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #174)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:44 PM

184. Jesus, you people don't read the daily drumbeat of this stuff

http://www.northcoastjournal.com/blogthing/2012/06/26/drunken-confusion-leads-fickle-hill-shooting/

Drunken Confusion Leads to Fickle Hill Shooting


The homeowners told the unknown male to leave their residence. The unknown male told the couple to leave his residence. The homeowners saw there was a vehicle parked outside their residence that had crashed into their gate post. The homeowners went to a nearby neighbor and asked for help. The neighbor, a 42 year old male, and the male homeowner returned to the residence. The neighbor brought a shotgun with him for defense. When they entered the residence they again asked the subject on the couch to leave. The subject on the couch was very intoxicated and appeared to believe he was in his own home. He jumped up from the couch and came at the neighbor who was holding the shotgun. The neighbor fired the shotgun one time. The male subject was struck in the abdominal area causing a significant injury.



http://midtown.patch.com/articles/report-georgia-tech-student-shoots-intruder

Update 9:20 a.m. – The Atlanta Journal-Constitution is reporting that the man shot Tuesday morning was a confused neighbor who was under the influence of drugs and thought the home he was entering was his own.

After speaking with an Atlanta Police Department captain, the newspaper reported that the intruder apparently was “high on drugs and thought he was at his own home.”

Another APD official, Detective P.J. Roberson, said the suspect was an area resident and "actually entered two houses in the neighborhood, thinking it was his."


This shit happens - all. the. time.

And, no, the penalty for being drunk and in the wrong house is not being shot!

Or the penalty for having a stroke or some other momentary amnesia-like brain disturbance...

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #184)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:25 PM

187. +1

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:55 PM

6. as I understand it, even military personnel have problems

with that first kill ... I would suspect that, if the act of killing another human being DIDN'T affect them in some way, there would be some flags going off ...

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Response to zbdent (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:03 PM

18. According to my dad, who was a soldier and a cop

most people vomit the first time they kill someone.

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Response to zbdent (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:12 PM

26. "with that FIRST kill."

 

Cool. so later kills will be much easier?

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Response to Whovian (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:13 PM

28. Unfortunately, I think so

 

Side note: one of my favorite aspects of the character Dr Who is that he never kills anyone. His main "weapon" is a sonic screwdriver that is totally non-lethal. Unlike the Masters' who can kill another.

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Response to Whovian (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:44 PM

69. wow ... I really don't know where you're going with that one ...

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:55 PM

7. want to =/= have to

Any sane person is traumatized by having to take a human life. But the circumstances under which it occurs have a huge effect on how well one recovers from that traumatization. When the circumstance is forced upon you by the person you end up having to kill, that will go a long way towards reconciling what you have done. It's an example of "path of least harm" ethnics in action, really...

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:06 PM

23. I understand the logic behind it

 

But if it were me, I would do anything within my power to make it NOT kill

And if I did have to kill someone, I would feel that on my conscience for the rest of my life. And if I didn't, I would be scared.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:58 PM

82. I think we're probably very similar in that regard.

I'm a bit of a "cold fish," and I'm sure I would be able to understand that such a situation might really have been life and death for me, and that I made the only feasible choice I could. But I have no doubt that there would be times when that purely rational analysis wouldn't make me feel any better. When it would weigh very, very heavily one me...and I wouldn't change that. Like you say, if you ever fail to feel that way, you've got problems.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:55 PM

8. Seriously......

Who on this board said they wanted to kill someone? And who said they would say "whoopee" about it?

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Response to charlyvi (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:56 PM

11. DU is full of stories from gun nuts who "defended their family with their glock"

 

Somehow, the weapon happened to be in their hand at just the moment a 'bad guy' "kicked the door down."

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Response to Taverner (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:02 PM

17. Not kicking down the door, but you can hear someone breaking in, if you're awake.

Been there. More than once.

I had time, one of those times, to get and load my gun. Unfortunately I was so panicked that I accidentally ejected the bullet from the chamber, so had to point the empty-barreled gun at him. Fortunately, it worked, and he high tailed it away. I was able to point the gun through the window before he actually got in.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:18 PM

34. FULL of stories? Simple. Hyperbolic. Bullshit.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:19 PM

35. Prove to me that these stories are true.

 

The burden of proof is upon you

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Response to Taverner (Reply #35)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:33 PM

53. I must be blind.

Apparently I've missed ALL these stories of which you speak. Please don't hesitate to point ONE out though.

I don't feel qualified to speak about its truth until I've read at least ONE.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:52 PM

75. Yeah, they never tell you the guy kicking the door was someone they knew...

... the guy they owed money to for drugs or gambling, the guy they sold bad meth to, that fellow they "borrowed" the car from last month, the guy from a rival gang...

Or maybe it was just some heroic gun fantasy playing in their head late at night as they were digging through the dirty shag carpet for any crystals they may have dropped while listing to the voices that got past the tinfoil hat and when they woke up the Men in Black had hauled away the dead body, memory wiped the neighbors, replaced the broken door, and the family they were defending is alcoholic mom passed out in her underwear on the sofa who believes her 43 year old paranoid gun loving virgin son is an angel of justice.

Sad, really.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:53 PM

78. I've been on DU for several years and have read

only one account from one user of his daughter scaring an intruder away by brandishing a firearm. That's it. How about posting a couple of links to what you are talking about, eh? I'll hold my breath...

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Response to pipoman (Reply #78)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:44 AM

170. I have posted about my wife scaring away a would-be mugger. No shots fired.

There was recently a post by a guy who had shot a rapist in the act. He wasn't happy about having had to do.

I have never seen a DU post by anybody bragging about it.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:56 PM

10. I don't own guns or any of that.

 

But I doubt I'd have any problem sleeping after killing someone that deserved it. I'd feel horrible if I accidentally killed an innocent. However, neither scenerio would make me feel as if I weren't a good person.

You can be both a killer and a good person. Why do you think people can't?

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:57 PM

12. If you are a good person, and you kill someone and feel nothing...you are not a good person

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:08 PM

25. I didn't say I wouldn't feel anything.

 

I probably be happy that I saved my family and satisfied that a really dangerous person couldn't hurt anyone anymore. I'd probably feel relieved that I'm alive and thankful I'm not dead or injured. Hell, I might even feel bad that the person in question was so screwed up or evil that they made me kill them.

Lots of feelings.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:18 PM

33. So would you tell his/her mother that their kid was worthless?

 

Better dead than alive?

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Response to Taverner (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:40 PM

64. Truth is ugly.

 

If that was the case then, yes, I would. That might be something I can't tell though. Do I know this fictional person well enough to opine on their worth? Is this just a random encounter with a stranger?

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:20 PM

38. The OP doesn't give a fraction of a damn what you said.

The OP has transcended rationalism and entered a realm of pure self-satisfaction.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:24 PM

42. No, I took every word for what it was....nt

 

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:53 PM

77. Yeah. But I have a penchant for attempting the impossible.

 

Obviously, one must agree 100% with the OP or you're a subhuman, soulless psychopath but I enjoy the back and forth.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:56 PM

81. Why?

 

Tell me why everyone has to conform to your emotional standard.

I've seen guys feel everything from sad to meh to ha ha funny to anger that the SOB put himself in a position to get shot.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:59 PM

14. I've heard you don't know how it feels to kill someone until you do it.

So with that in mind, I would fully expect to feel that it was tragic, but that I had to do what I had to do, for defense. They were the ones, after all, to instigate the situation and attack me and my family. They are to blame for what happened. It is foreseeable when someone enters a life a crime, they may die from it. Criminals know this. It's a risky line of work.

It strikes me as being sort of like getting into an accident with a drunk driver...and because of evasive action I took, I survived while he continued over the bridge and died in the water below. I can't second guess a protective, reactionary, self-defense action. You just react the best you can to protect yourself and your loved ones.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:17 PM

31. Nah, it's just like in the Rambo movies!

 

They go boom, and you get popcorn

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:00 PM

15. What I find amazing is

the people who think shoplifting and stealing should be punishable by death.

I remember a time in this country when we used to find it barbaric that in some middle eastern countries they chopped off peoples hands for stealing. Now you can find self professed liberals who cheer people for shooting a shoplifter.

We are... devolving.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:04 PM

19. +100

 

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:51 PM

209. Roger That - The Culture Of Death And Gun Enablers Have Debased America Significantly

eom

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 07:02 PM

212. Amen To That. (nt)

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:01 PM

16. So it's not ok for law enforcement to kill criminals in their defense or the defense of others?

I wouldn't loose a millisecond of sleep over having to defend my life or my family from a person who wanted to harm any of us. I enjoy being alive.

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Response to jal777 (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:05 PM

20. If you felt nothing, then you just discovered you're a closet sociopath

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:12 PM

27. Wow...

You are telling me I'm a sociopath IF I choose to defend myself or family and not having any regrets. I think you are the sociopath for even hinting that's ok for a intruder to go into a home on his/her own to murder innocents over objects that may be of value. I challenge you to come up with a better argument. Bottom line is that you think I should be unarmed so that criminals would have the ability to harm me.

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Response to jal777 (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:16 PM

30. Yes. Yes I am. If you kill someone in the process, and you don't feel anything...

 

Then yes, you are a socipath

I'm not saying you shouldn't defend yourself

But that if your defense ends in the other's death - and you feel NOTHING

Then, yes, you are a sociopath

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Response to Taverner (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:36 PM

55. Ok I would feel something. It's called recoil....

honestly why in the world would I have to feel sorrow for someone bent on trying to kill me? Handguns are usually hidden when a burglary is taking place. I honestly think if your "intruder" would've been armed with a gun you wouldnt be posting any of this right now. I wonder how much sleep that criminal would've lost over that?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:05 PM

21. Because I would only be able to kill

If I were certain if I did not take their life, they would take mine. And then I probably wouldn't sleep for a while, might go seek help...but at the end of the day I'd realize that while a mother's child is dead, my mother's child isn't. I'd quite like for humans to stop killing each other, but I don't think that will ever happen...and if it's a clear binary choice, I'm choosing myself.

So are you an absolute pacifist? Would you rather have your life taken than ever take another's? That's an entirely respectable position if you are, just asking.

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Response to sir pball (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:14 PM

29. Not an absolute pacifist

 

But definitely anti-aggression

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:05 PM

22. And now the shark is jumped with room to spare

You are right, of course, the hypothetical person you describe (your hypothetical, not mine) would much rather see his family dead than shoulder the guilt of killing an attacker.

Is this a JOKE?

Are you just pranking people with these increasingly inane posts?

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:07 PM

24. If you have a gun and never asked yourself this question, you have no business with one

 

Your gun was designed with one thing in mind - kill another person

It's not like you were out chopping wood and hurt someone with an ax

You carried your gun with the intent of killing someone if they threaten you

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Response to Taverner (Reply #24)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 09:55 AM

163. I understand and agree.

I own a gun, and I (mostly) agree. I don't think anyone should own or operate ANYTHING potentially lethal, be it gun, car, fireworks...without considering the consequences of its use.

I'm a safe driver, because I know the consequences of driving recklessly could be the death of an innocent. I could not live with that on my conscience. It would wreck me.

I'm not the sort who looks for trouble, it's really going to have to come find me. If it does, I will do my best to exit the situation, call the authorities, or take whatever steps I can to de-escalate the situation. If none of those are options, or if there is no time for any of those options, then I will shoot.

Will I feel bad about it? Of course. But will I feel AS bad as I would if I was driving wrecklessly and killed an innocent? No way. Not even close. The death of an innocent would be because of something I did (or didn't) do. The death of an aggressor would be because of something THEY did.

So, yes, I have asked myself that question. Frequently, about many things, not just guns.

Only point of disagreement - a gun is really no different than an axe. If properly operated, it, like an axe, will not kill anyone it is not intended to. It is not the nature of the tool that defines it, it is the use to which it is put. An axe, while designed to cut wood, can serve as a fairly gruesome killing tool.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:18 PM

32. No shit.

Remind me not to get in a tight spot and need to depend on Taverner for my well-being.

I find it totally confounding that anyone would actually imply that they would stand idly by and let someone harm their loved ones or violate their property.

I doubt that there is much real-world experience behind the OP.

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Response to DollarBillHines (Reply #32)


Response to Taverner (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:28 PM

48. You need to take a few deep breaths.

By the way, in close quarters, I am highly effective with a knife (the Navy taught me that shit). What would you suggest I do with my knives?

You really do need to calm down.

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Response to DollarBillHines (Reply #48)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:29 PM

50. You need to try and get some empathy...

 

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:30 PM

51. It's not a joke to discuss what the

realities of taking the life of another human being are.

We are not talking the NRA/Ralphie fantasy of "taking down Black Bart". We are talking about the reality of being forced into a situation where you have to kill someone. Perhaps in front of your family.
Why do you assume the OP would rather see his family dead? Because he understands that when you shoot someone it's not clean, or pretty, or cool, or badass? Because the OP has qualms about taking another persons life even in self defense? How is that "inane"?




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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #51)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:07 PM

90. You may have been taken in by the OP

You are trying to read the OP as if it had meaning, and it follows from that that the OP must be about human reaction to committing justifiable homicide.

It is not, however.

The OP is categorically opposed to lethal self defense... or pretending to be, for the purposes of this flame-bait.

The OP is arguing gun control "in the alternative" — even if we accept that killers are about to murder you or your family you still shouldn't have a gun because how could you kill another human being?

He doesn't seem to grasp that if every home in America was in fact surrounded by crazed killers trying to get in that widespread gun ownership would in fact be an excellent idea. But since we are not all ringed with killers that hypothetical does have much force.

(And if civilization was going to fall tomorrow the survivalists would be on to something... but it isn't, and they aren't.)

The objective appears to be to stake out a "More anti-gun than thou" position because people are getting tired of the argument and the OP can't get a rise from anybody without going to such foolish extremes. It's like some PETA person saying that you shouldn't eat an animal even if you are starving to death.

Or a hypothetical extreme anti-choicer saying you shouldn't have an abortion even if the mother is in mortal peril.

Meanwhile, the OP fantasizes about shooting guns from attacker's hands, taking down gunmen with a baseball bat... all sorts of truly infantile stuff. Read through the whole thread. It's tragic.

If you want a serious discussion about the moral and psychological dimensions of justifiable homicide, this ain't the thread for it.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:44 AM

146. imo that one has been on the other side of the tank

for a good long while.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:19 PM

36. I would kill someone only to save something that I was willing to die for

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #36)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:21 PM

40. That is very different than killing whomever enters a home

 

Most burglars are unarmed

Most run

I had a burglar

I screamed as I ran with a baseball bat

They screamed as they ran out of the house

Problem solved

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Response to Taverner (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:24 PM

44. That's fine. No reason to kill someone who doesn't pose a real threat.

 

I pulled a knife on some youths once. They backed off and walked away.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:06 PM

136. Why the hell are you assuming

that gun owners would kill whomever enters their home without a second thought? Your premise is beyond ridiculous.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #136)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:51 AM

171. Because lots of DUers claim that is exactly what they would do.


See post #169 where the poster says he would kill an intoxicated neighbor who accidentally blundered into the poster's home.

No hyperbole necessary. It is right upthread for you to read for yourself.


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Response to ieoeja (Reply #171)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:06 PM

175. I do not believe the majority

of gun owners and/or gun-owning DUers would 'shoot first and ask questions later'.

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Response to ieoeja (Reply #171)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:38 PM

191. There is a huge difference between "accidentally blundered" and "breaking and entering".

Some one can't accidentally blunder into my home. The doors are locked, as are the windows. They have to break in. At that point they become a deadly threat to me and my wife, and we will defend ourselves. We will not place our own lives in greater jeopardy to protect the life of a felon, meaning we will shoot. We are not required to determine if he is high on drugs or booze, if he is sane, if he is armed or unarmed, or what his intentions are. The simple fact of illegally breaking into an occupied structure allows the defender sufficient presumption of evil intent on his part.

We don't get many occupied burglaries in small town Texas.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #191)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:20 PM

200. We don't get many occupied burglaries ANYWHERE.


Very, very few thieves rob occupied homes.

And I never said it was illegal. You can follow the law and still be the bloodthirsty monster that you clearly are and are very proud of being.


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Response to ieoeja (Reply #200)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:39 PM

206. Not blood thirsty.

I just rationally value my life and the life of my wife above that of someone illegally breaking into my home. I am not out patrolling the neighborhood looking for trouble. If trouble stays away from me, I won't bother it. But I am not so naive as to believe that being defenseless will make trouble stay away. Being ready for trouble does not mean that I desire trouble.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:21 PM

39. A good person kills to protect themselves and their loved ones

It is my moral obligation to do everything reasonable in my power to protect myself and my loved ones. People trying to kill/harm me or my loved ones isn't deserving of empathy.

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Response to Taitertots (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:23 PM

41. Why kill when you can stop?

 

This is why I have a baseball bat.

Go for the knees, they aren't moving.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:36 PM

56. Come on, bats only work in gang fights.

If someone came at me with a bat, I would laugh. Unless you have the handspeed of Tony Gwynn, you would not stand a chance in a one-on-one with a decent streetfighter.

Get a golf club, a pitching wedge is much more effective than a baseball bat. You can swing them faster and contact is a bitch.

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Response to DollarBillHines (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:37 PM

58. Hide in a spot, when they come near, swing to the knees

 

It is YOUR home after all!

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Response to Taverner (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:17 PM

98. Sometimes that works, sometimes that doesn't

A person entered our home with a gun. I disarmed him with a drywall tool and was subduing him on the ground when his partner came in, pointed a gun at me and declared his intent to kill me. My wife double tapped him mid sentence.

I was unarmed and did not try to kill the first guy. The second guy did not give my wife much choice.

Down thread you referred to that as a murder. Real nice mouth you got there bucko

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Response to Taverner (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:30 PM

129. I saw a post the other day advocating playing darts...

 

This is at least one step above that.

A tiny one...

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Response to Taverner (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:39 PM

62. Because I think the idea that you are going to stop a determined attacker with a bat is foolish

I'm going to use the most effective possible means to protect myself and my loved ones, a gun.

In the hypothetical OP you never brought up the possibility that an alternative to killing was available. You simply asked how people would sleep knowing that they killed someone who wanted to kill/harm them or their loved ones.

Why kill when you could stop? If I could I would pursue every avenue that doesn't involve killing but still protects me and the people I care about.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:04 PM

87. And if the bat didn't work?

How about if it were more then one person? You only provide one single scenario...one person breaking in! What if it were 2 or 3, and they were armed?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:24 PM

43. My late wife killed a home invader who had a gun on me many years ago

She never indicated that it bothered her a great deal...It had to be done and she did it.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #43)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:26 PM

45. Did you ever meet the mother of the murdered?

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #45)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:41 PM

66. Why do say "the murdered"? That was not "murder". (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #66)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:36 PM

107. That poster has been on a hypebole high for quite some time

Of course it was not murder.

His cohort pleaded to lesser charges involving the attempted burglary. No prosecution for him having a gun.





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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #107)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:43 PM

112. Whether your wife killed him or murdered him he's still just as dead, isn't he?

Not that the criminal didn't deserve the murdering your wife gave him, of course! He had it coming......

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Response to TheDebbieDee (Reply #112)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:45 PM

115. The word 'murder' always means unjustifiable homicide

Whether legally or colloquially, there are no justifiable murders. (In the view of the person using the word. People can disagree as to whether something is murder, but the side calling it murder always means it is not a justifiable homicide.)

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #115)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:54 PM

121. Yes, but the justification of the murder is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?

However, it only matters what the judge or jury thinks is justifiable murder.

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Response to TheDebbieDee (Reply #121)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:14 PM

123. The correct term is homicide, not murder

The generic definition of murder is:
- That a human being died
- That they died unlawfully
- That there was malice aforethought

This was clear cut self defense. No arrests, just statements and a perfunctory investigation. Its was also a black on black homicide. They don't get nearly the level of police attention.

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Response to TheDebbieDee (Reply #112)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:15 PM

124. It was not murder, it was homicide

and it wasn't a case of deserving it, there was no other practical way to save my life. I was most grateful.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #45)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:13 PM

96. No one was murdered, and they met and talked for awhile.

The men folk were excused for that conversation. Its was done in a traditional African American way, something I am sure you would not understand.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:27 PM

47. You wouldn't shoot someone to save your child?

 

Now that is messed up to me.

I don't doubt that it is traumatizing, but if your babies can't depend on you to protect them then what good are you?

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Response to dkf (Reply #47)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:32 PM

52. I would but who says I would want them dead?

 

Mercy is a virtue

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Response to Taverner (Reply #52)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:04 PM

86. So you would take a chance you don't stop them to save your conscience?

 

How is that not a completely selfish act?

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Response to dkf (Reply #86)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:13 PM

97. He appears to be a trick-shot artist

DU's own Annie Oakley would, it appears, disable people with non-lethal wounds.

See, cops shoot into the center of he body because they are all sociopaths. They could easily just shoot the guns out of the bad guys' hands, but they choose not to.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #97)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:58 PM

144. Dude got kicked off the thread. Too bad.

 

I would have like to see his/her response.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:28 PM

49. You sleep very well at night in that case

If you really did have to kill a horde of crazy hippies on meth and PCP, you console yourself with the simple fact that SOMEONE was going to wind up dead in that case--either the crazy hippies, or your family. And crazy hippies on meth and PCP don't feel remorse because they probably didn't realize they killed anyone when they took out your family. As Sean Connery asked Kevin Costner in "The Untouchables," would you prefer it was you?

If they weren't crazy hippies on meth and PCP, and you killed them anyway, you would not sleep well at night if you had any sort of moral compass at all.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:35 PM

54. When you kill someone you become a different person after.

No sane person likes that new person better than the old one.

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Response to Robb (Reply #54)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:38 PM

59. +10000

 

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:37 PM

57. It's a fairly ridiculous question.

Only a psychopath would 'want' to kill someone. There are times when there is no choice. I am certain I could mentally recover more easily from killing a meth head to protect my family than I could if I did nothing while a meth head murdered my family.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:38 PM

60. I don't know if I could

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:38 PM

61. How do they sleep at night?

 

Likely in a bed with the lights off. If you truly acted in self defense, honestly & truly, you shouldn't second guess the decision since it was them or you. The person that threatened you or your family and gave you a no-win situation. Nothing to feel distraught about - worrying never changed the past. I'm not ashamed of that. If you are not willing to defend your life or your family by whatever means necessary, then you shouldn't own a gun for self defense. It's that simple. If you do not have the conviction to train with a weapon and effectively use it, it can only be a danger to you.

I believe that people should have the choice to accept the responsibility in equipping themselves to do what is necessary to ensure the life and liberty of themselves and their family. I don't advocate "arming every man woman and child"... if someone doesn't want to take on such a responsibility or is uncomfortable with it then I understand and accept that choice. What I don't accept is a politician sitting hundreds of miles away in an ivory tower surrounded by armed security living under their own set of rights to own/do whatever they want and making my own decisions for me. Fuck that. They can't ensure my personal safety any more than they can fix the economy, healthcare, poverty, or our schools. Because when you REALLY need protection and seconds matter, remember that the police are only minutes away.

It's all about freedom and I support more choice, not more restriction. And before you talk about society being "free from random gunfire and gun-deaths"... remember that violent-crime rates and gun death rates have been on a steady decline for about a decade. Statistically, you've never been safer in recent history.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:40 PM

63. I am no fan of guns

But if someone came after my family or pets, I would go eyeballs first, balls second, and then eat a fucking sandwich over the bleeding, wretching-in-extreme-pain body and/or corpse while waiting for the police to arrive; or die trying. Could I sleep after? Oh hells yes. Preventing an attack on my family = preventing an attack in the future on another family. The adrenaline is there (even thinking about it), although I may not remember the details the next day.

I wouldn't blink an eye.

Attack me or mine, then hope I don't get the better of you, because if I do and you survive, you are going home without your testicles because they will be hoisted onto a pike in my front yard. Sorry for your luck.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:40 PM

65. Turn the tables Taverner

 

If you could prevent 20 childrens' gruesome murders by shooting someone, would you pull the trigger?

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Response to cbrer (Reply #65)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:45 PM

71. His solution to this would be to hide and hit the killer in the knee or he would become a sociopath

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:42 PM

67. It is not something one takes lightly, but I would not lose sleep over it

I saw some of the worst, day in and out, as a deputy.

After I was a deputy I did armed security guard work at an abandoned apartment complex. One of guards had recently been shot at and a body found in the dumpster.

Rapes, drugs, etc from people would come onto the property and hole up in those places.

A big complex and I worked alone. Heard a door slam one day in an apartment and went to investigate with my gun drawn.

My worry was that someone might be being injured.

Turns out it was nothing, but had I had to shoot someone to protect myself or someone else I could sleep well.

If you could shoot/kill adam lanza before he had the chance to kill all those people would you lose sleep?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:43 PM

68. I have never wanted to kill anybody

... not even the people who have screwed me over in the worst ways. I've wanted to beat the shit out of a couple people but never wanted to kill them..... never wished them dead.

When it comes to protecting my family, if God forbid I ever did have to kill anybody, it certainly wouldn't be because I wanted to. I have a gate that is locked at night, motion sensing outdoor lights, an alarm, dogs and finally, a pump shotgun that I consider to be the last resort.

If somebody jumps the fence, ignores the lights coming on and the dogs raising hell, breaks in the door, ignores the alarm and defeats the dogs and makes their way down the hallway to where our bedrooms are before the cops get there, I just hope that I can do what I'd have to at that point.

I'm pretty sure I'd spend a lot of sleepless nights knowing I'd killed somebody, but I don't think I could live with something happening to my wife and daughter. I hope and pray I never, ever find myself in that situation but if I ever do, "want" will have absolutely nothing to do with what happens.

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Response to PD Turk (Reply #68)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:27 PM

102. You correctly focus on the offensive "want"

The OP is not very serious... it lumps (intentionally, it appears) the very concept of lethal self-defense in with assholes who hope somebody tries something so they can shoot somebody.

"Why would you want to kill somebody?"

A giant straw-man.

I dislike guns, don't own 'em, and don't think about self-defense much but in a lurid hypothetical such as the OP conjures, I would, in that hypothetical, prefer to have a gun and the ability to use it effectively because I would prefer that my loved ones remain alive, even at the cost of killing someone attempting to murder them.

That is not "wanting" to kill someone. I would not "want" myself or my loved ones to be threatened with imminent murder in the first place.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:49 PM

73. I wrote this down this week- "Can barbarism eliminate barbarism?"

I was wondering if there would be a place to ask it.

If one were to even begin to elaborate on what you said, or what I've said, it would amount to a brawl. The chaos that would ensue would be overwhelming.

Yet, this is something that holds answers for the human race. The "What if everyone were conscientious objectors?" question.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:50 PM

74. Lots of people have killed...

 

... and slept perfectly well at night.

Just because they don't feel the way you think they "ought" to doesn't make them a monster.

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Response to Coyote_Tan (Reply #74)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:52 PM

76. Spoken like a neighborhood watchman.

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Response to Robb (Reply #76)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:36 PM

108. Spoken like someone...

 

... who has seen it first hand.

Some cry, some laugh, some don't care. Wide spectrum but everyone who doesn't fit your mold is a sociopath.

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Response to Coyote_Tan (Reply #108)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:43 PM

113. Sure you have, tiger.

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Response to Robb (Reply #113)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:21 PM

125. Classy...

 

Sure is easy to discount what doesn't fit neatly into your preconceived view...

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:55 PM

79. You may live in a black and white world

But most of us don't.

Would you have killed a man that you knew was on his way to kill 20 six year olds.

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Response to Peregrine (Reply #79)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:03 PM

85. In real life, one can't foretell the future.

So any sane person's answer would have to be "no".

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Response to Peregrine (Reply #79)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:30 PM

105. I would try everything I could to stop him. And if that didn't work, yeah

I would kill him. But I am pretty chicken about getting in trouble, so I would probably have to have incontrovertible proof that he was going to kill those kids.

And, for the life of me, I don't think I would sleep poorly afterwards. I think it would be worse to NOT stop him and have him kill the kids. THAT would probably mess me up more.

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Response to renie408 (Reply #105)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:28 PM

141. Several years ago in the Twin Cities

a hoodlum shot a cop in a church parking lot and then executed him with a shot behind the ear. A citizen next door (2nd floor bedroom window) saw what happened and had a 9 mm with a laser sight right on the perp. He was afraid of being prosecuted, so he just shot out the rear window of the car so the cops could identify the car and more easily find the perp. If the citizen had shot the perp, there is a good chance a second cop and his canine partner would not have been murdered by the perp during the manhunt later that same day.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:05 PM

88. If they're trying to kill me.

But, really this question is too easy. OF COURSE anyone would say they'd kill to defend themselves.

The real question is: Where's the lowest threshold? What is the least thing you would want to kill someone for?

Cutting you off on the freeway?

Taking the last beer out of the 'fridge?

Playing music too loud for your taste?

For merely being a child? Or a volunteer firefighter? Or a teenager walking home from the local 7-11?


One of the big problems with having guns being freely available is that incidents which would normally be minor altercations among sane people inevitably escalate into deadly confrontations when guns are added - with the people having the least reason to carry a gun becoming judge, jury & executioner.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)


Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:28 PM

104. If it was a horde of crazy hippies on meth who were trying to hurt me or my family...

I think I probably sleep fine.

But they would have to be trying to hurt me and I was in a situation where I couldn't get away. While I don't advocate gun ownership at all, I also don't advocate victimhood. If someone is trying to hurt or kill you or your family, then you are within your rights to defend yourself however you can. And if you wind up killing them, they made a choice that put their life in danger. NOT YOU.

But I wouldn't kill anyone over stuff. If somebody wants my stuff enough to come into my house to get it, they can have it. It's just stuff. I wouldn't shoot a purse snatcher.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:33 PM

106. The cop who took out

Dimebag Darrell's killer was crying about it when he talked to the lead singer of Pantera. No more justifiable shooting on this planet, but he still cried about it. That is the definition of a true man. He acted to save people, but he is still emotionally distraught by his actions.

He is a hero.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)


Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:49 PM

116. Tough question...

One I dealt with a number of years ago.

I used to be a member of the Indiana Hunters Association. One day, I simply lost my desire to kill things and just stopped. A few years later I realized that I needed to sell my guns. I'm a very impulsive and reactive person and knew that if I were ever posed with the situation of having an intruder break into my house, I would react and impulsively shoot and kill that person. So... no more guns in my house.

That's not to say that I don't have a 34" Louisville Slugger in my closet. Just don't want to kill a human being. Really don't want to kill anything actually.

I now live in Florida and do all of my hunting exclusively in the meat section of the Piggly Wiggly.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:51 PM

117. I would never want to kill anyone.

Killing people is always wrong, every time, I don't care why.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:52 PM

119. I thought about that, and that's why I'll probably never own a gun

Besides the energy it would take to learn to shoot, etc., when it comes down to it, I'd much rather hide and call the cops than proactively pull the trigger. I freak out when killing ants and centipedes; I can't imagine killing a person.

On the other hand, if the person was specifically there to attack me, then I'd be screwed. I think people (example: abused women) who know there is someone who wants to kill them might be justified in owning a gun. I don't have that problem right now (at least, I hope not).

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Response to ecstatic (Reply #119)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:41 AM

145. Just keep in mind that police are not personal security and are not obligated to render aid.

In the real world they sometimes don't show up at all or show up too late.

Cops protect the system and property not people. We are functionally on our own and for some that stretches beyond beyond any practical reaction time.

I almost never carry but there have been times when I have had to be in possession of a lot of money for work and I have no qualms about carrying and there are times when I am deep in the country...45-60 from a hospital and I pack then too. If my ass is an hour from care, then HELP is longer save for pure luck. Especially when it may be days or weeks before anyone knows there was a need for any.

There is no such thing as safe, it doesn't exist in this world but you have to stretch your odds the best you can, is my belief. Self defense training and at least non-lethal weaponry should be for everyone, in my opinion.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #145)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:07 PM

202. So what you are basically saying

is that an armed PO at a school will do no good? They are under no obligation to help anyone in advance. By the same logic why should the "armed" teachers protect anyone but themselves?

Arm the KIDS then?

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #202)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:36 PM

204. At the Columbine shooting the police were of little help.

The cops didn't enter the building and take down the killers. Instead they set up a perimeter and waited for the SWAT team. All during that time they could her the shots from inside the school. The police arrived at 11:22 AM but the SWAT team did not enter the building until 1:09 PM, after the shooters had committed suicide.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #202)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:46 AM

216. My point was nothing of the kind, I am not fixated on one scenario with every thought revolving

around it. I was not speaking to the massacre at all.

Armed police at the school would be specifically stationed to protect the school, so there would be an exception but the prospect does not excite me, I don't like turning our schools into prisons over a one off.

It isn't my logic, I don't design the structure of our system. I'd require cops to render aid but they are not, the cops I have desperately tried to flag down would loose their jobs for passing by without an emergency to respond to.

I don't see how logistically we can expect personal security though or be able to provide quick aid to all. Departments would be broke from paying out lawsuits on failure to protect.

Cops are not and cannot be your personal protection, that is your job.

As far as teachers go, I don't favor the requirement they carry at all nor do I oppose their right to carry, that should be up to them.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:23 PM

127. Who says I do? (Want to kill someone..)

I don't.

Next question?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:45 PM

133. I was stuck on an elevator with Karl Rove and...

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:48 PM

134. I don't have any stories about defending my family with a gun...

 

but, thinking about it and your question, I would have to answer yes I would kill if it meant saving someone I love. I've never killed anyone but I have beaten someone into unconsciousness in the past in defense of another.

I've noticed that you label those who say they would kill as sociopaths, and while I agree that people who kill others tend to fit that description, when faced with a life or death situation and I was the one to live while the 'intruder' died by my hand (gun or otherwise), I'm not sure that would necessarily qualify me as a sociopath.

So, my answer is yes...only to be qualified with it would be better to just harm them and get them arrested, but if they died I imagine I would be OK with the consequences to my psyche.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:25 PM

139. Would probably sleep better than if I failed to defend my family

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:27 PM

140. For a million dollars and the right person I may do it n/t

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:30 PM

142. Why would you want to allow yourself or a loved one to die? Would you sleep better THEN?

Serious question, I guess. Though the answer seems obvious.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:32 PM

143. Why would you want to allow a "horde of crazy hippies on meth and PCP"

 

To harm or even kill your family if you could prevent it?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:00 AM

147. You know what, Tav, I'm going to make an example of you for this.

Don't hate me for it, k bro? *sigh*

Who among us wants (your word) to kill someone? You assume so much shit, that I can't even slog through it. Your premise is shit, your result is shit, yet you lay your judgment in regards to it on us. Ever dealt with being responsible for another person's death? Ask it when you have rather than making it a commercial.

Let me ask you this, chilly...how do you convince yourself YOU are a good person even though...(daily events should autofill here).

Shine that fucking light back on you.

When you want to know how I can or can't sleep at night be ready. You asked. Don't tread there with me until you've gone vegan. "Good person" indeed.

You're asking about suffering. Educate yourself before moving forward. You've been warned.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:01 AM

148. just to watch him die

 

--Johnny Cash

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Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #148)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:56 PM

211. caught her messin' around with another man

jimi hendrix

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:15 AM

149. Who would really "want" to kill anyone, or anything?

I've killed a few coyotes, the most brazen of the bunch, that didn't much seem to care if I was there or not, other than the fact that I was standing between them and a few little precious pomeranians that were outside with us just trying to do their business. I didn't "want" to, but I felt I "needed" to.

I carry a snakestick with me in every single vehicle I drive, and shoo rattlesnakes off our roads so the local assholes don't deliberately kill them for their rattle.

I don't think anyone other than hunters here on DU really wants to kill anything, and I don't think anyone on DU wants to kill anyone...


But I can say for certain, that there are many many here that would if they had to.





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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:20 AM

150. I've seen a lot of death and horrid shit in my life

As a reporter/reporter abroad in place where life means shit.

I think life is precious and I'm very compassionate. But if I ever got to the point where I killed someone, they'd probably have deserved it and I wouldn't feel guilty. I've done bad things to people who deserved it. No murders or violence (aside from the odd barroom tussle) but I've certainly fucked over some real pieces of work in my time and not felt bad.

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Response to HEyHEY (Reply #150)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:23 AM

151. Oh shit!

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Response to JVS (Reply #151)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:39 AM

152. HAAAAAAAA!!!!!

DUDE! How are ya!?

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Response to HEyHEY (Reply #152)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:44 AM

153. I'm ok.

Read the current DU rules though, because the rules here are way stricter than before. For example, upthread Taverner had a post "hidden" and is now barred from the thread. It would be a shamed to see you get PPRed (what used to be called tombstoned) on your return just because you screwed up and called someone a p-word

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:22 AM

155. I will protect my family!

I doubt that a horde of meth-heads would attempt to invade my home.
But, I'm ready to do whatever is necessary to defend my loved ones.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:23 AM

156. Having been in positions where I killed people and then failed to kill someone I should have

I will tell you that it is a lose/lose situation. I feel guilt and shame for those I did kill, but I feel just as bad for not shooting the guy that I let get away. I don't have it in me to recount my war stories right now, but both situations leave you feeling guilty.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:27 AM

157. Kicking because I know at least one DUer who has been in multiple shootouts

and I'm hoping they weigh in!

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 07:47 AM

160. Do you mean "want to" or "would"

There is a difference.
There is one person I hate with the heat of a thousand suns. Even though my son died by suicide, she killed him. If there are "evil" people, she is.
I have wanted to kill her. Why? Vengeance.
Would I? No.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 09:50 AM

161. A lot of people could not kill

Since it is against the ten commandments and we are taught not to.

You really do have to train people to kill. Its not easy.

Those of us who are not trained are at a disadvantage in a society where others are heavily armed and carry concealed weapons.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 09:55 AM

162. Big Difference Between HAVING To Kill And LOOKING FORWARD To Killing.


See the DU Gungeon for daily, very ugly examples of this line being crossed.....

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:04 AM

164. You're going to die early in the Zombie Apocalypse

The largest annoyance (other than these ridiculous threads) is that you'll be adding yourself to the hoard.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:16 AM

165. If they added an i to your name?








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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:18 AM

166. Some folks just need killin'

 

If you do not want to or have the will to don't.

Killing is not fun but sometimes it is the only choice one has.

BTW the crazy tweaked meth head is not who I am worried about.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 10:20 AM

167. Why? To stop him from killing or badly hurting me.

I may feel bad abut it afterwards, but I will be alive to able to feel bad which beats being dead.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:07 PM

176. Killing someone feels like shit

And anyone who says otherwise is either lying or a sociopath.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:08 PM

177. there are some in the gungeon that believe it is ok to kill someone

stealing your property - even if it is something as insignificant as an ink pen.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:19 PM

180. And you've done nothing but WASTE one more opportunity to honestly address your authentic

"safety quotient", ergo, you are no more safe than you were before those crazy hippies on meth and PCP showed up and you could even have contributed more or less indirectly to the next horde of whatever that shows up, which will eventually get you, because your are addressing ONLY the fruit and not the root of what is happening.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:25 PM

181. I never WANT to kill anyone

even those who have actively been trying to kill me. Sometimes the choice is forced on us, do I allow a person to complete an action that will seriously have or kill myself, or someone I am willing to protect, OR do I use what ever force I have available to stop that person, even if it results in their death...
I will always choose the first option-- but I will not like it.

Killing another human is not something a person should ever become accustomed to or enjoy.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:35 PM

182. I would never want to do that. However,

I will defend my family in any way shape or form.

Yes, those people are sons, daughters, etcetera, of other people, but when they threaten the safety and lives of my innocent loved ones, and there's no way to reason with them (drugged out of the minds and such), I won't hesitate to take them out and I don't believe I'll lose any sleep over it (hypothesizing here since I've never had to face such a horrific event) because all I have to do is look at the faces of my sons and daughter and know I did what I needed to do to ensure they have a future.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:47 PM

185. why?

I wouldn't go on a rampage...but, if I was protecting my six year old daughter's life from someone trying to kill her? I'd sleep very well at night knowing I saved her life, whether I killed the person with my own bare hands, or one of our guns. Which are all hunting rifles - which have been locked up and unused for over ten years now - and have never killed anything except for the odd metal can or chunk of clay.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:22 PM

186. Never would I want to

Next, I suppose, you'll be asking when we stopped beating our spouses.

Tendentious questions suck.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:49 PM

189. Let's get this straight. No non-psychopathic/sociopathic person "wants" to kill anyone ever

But if the only thing protecting you or your family from imminent death is pulling the trigger of a gun, then that's about NEEDING to protect yourself versus wanting to kill someone. I'm pretty sure if I saved the life of my 3 year old son by shooting an attacker dead, my first emotional reaction would be relief and maybe joy that my family was alive. After tensions have died down, I'm sure I would ruminate over the life I took, but I'm pretty sure I could sleep at night given the choice I was presented with at the time.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:53 PM

190. Million Dollar Answer: "Because I had shitty parents"

who sat me in front of a tv screen because they didn't know how/care to teach me right from wrong... or ANYTHING, for that matter.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:42 PM

193. People actually responded to that steaming pile?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:58 PM

195. My husband said this same thing

How do you live with yourself after you shoot someone, even if it was justified?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:09 PM

197. Please transfer the million electronically.

I wouldn't.

There is no situation in which I would want to kill someone.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:10 PM

198. If I were in genuine fear for my life, I'd be prepared to use lethal force to defend myself.

As to how I'd live with it, should such a thing ever happen: I'd probably have PTSD. Nightmares. Flashbacks. Wake up trembling in a cold sweat for months afterward. But I'd be alive. (NB: I don't own a gun; I don't need one, and live in the UK where guns are not common. But I'd still be prepared to use deadly means of self-defence if I were in reasonable fear of injury or death at the hands of an intruder in my home.)

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 04:11 PM

199. Soundly.

If someone were breaking into my home, threatening my family, I would have no problem killing them. And it would not cause me to lose a second's sleep.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:38 PM

205. There is no crime.........

There is no crime of which I do not deem myself capable.
Goethe

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:58 PM

207. I don't think I completely understand your post

How could anyone sleep at night knowing they allowed someone to kill their child in front of them, and did nothing to try to save their own child's life? I don't believe I know many parents who'd let that happen without trying everything they could to protect their child, up to and including killing the person trying to kill their kid. Probably whatever it took, and with whatever is at hand to use.

If I was able to save my child's life, I wouldn't have to "convince" myself that I was a good person. And I guess I'd tell killer child's mom that it was either my kid or hers, and I saved mine. Even knowing that PTSD would follow wouldn't make a dent in my "try" to save my kid. Flashbacks, horrific feelings, etc, the price you pay gladly if your kid (or loved one) lives in the face of certain death.

If all I had was a 2 by 4, I'd do my best to save a life, even if it took the killer's life, if that is what you are talking about. What am I missing?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:55 PM

210. well there is the old time machine/kill hitler scenario

eom

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 07:40 PM

213. Oh good lord.

I have NO -- let me repeat, NO -- sympathy for someone who breaks into my home in the middle of the night. He's not there for a social call. I don't care who his mother is. If it's him or me (or my family), guess what ... it's going to be HIM.

I sleep very well at night.

Bake

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 07:50 PM

215. If someone's trying to harm me, I AIN'T WORRYIN' ABOUT HIS MOTHER, PAL. THAT'S HIS CONCERN.

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