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Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:49 PM

 

If high capacity magazines aren't helpful for mass killings, why are they used in those killings?

Last edited Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:32 PM - Edit history (1)

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Reply If high capacity magazines aren't helpful for mass killings, why are they used in those killings? (Original post)
michigandem58 Dec 2012 OP
slackmaster Dec 2012 #1
spin Dec 2012 #21
slackmaster Dec 2012 #22
loli phabay Dec 2012 #25
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #2
Bandit Dec 2012 #3
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #4
exboyfil Dec 2012 #7
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #11
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #13
exboyfil Dec 2012 #5
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #17
loli phabay Dec 2012 #23
exboyfil Dec 2012 #26
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #27
exboyfil Dec 2012 #28
rl6214 Dec 2012 #30
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #31
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #6
leveymg Dec 2012 #8
exboyfil Dec 2012 #9
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #18
Logical Dec 2012 #10
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #14
Logical Dec 2012 #15
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #19
GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #12
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #16
Brother Buzz Dec 2012 #20
michigandem58 Dec 2012 #24
jmg257 Dec 2012 #29

Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:52 PM

1. Choice. Just because a magazine holds 20 or 30 rounds doesn't mean you can't load it with five.

 

ETA I often do exactly that when I am target shooting or teaching newbies how to safely handle and use firearms. I've never seen a person who had never fired a weapon before end up not liking the AR-15 rifle at the end of his or her first shooting lesson.

I always start them off with a bolt-action .22 Long Rifle rifle shooting rounds loaded one at a time. After two or three hours, most are comfortable with medium power center-fire handguns and lighter rifle rounds such as the .223 or 5.56 mm.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:16 PM

21. I usually load 5 rounds in my six shot revolvers and my 10 round magazines while ...

target shooting.

I personally do not own a weapon that can hold more than 10 rounds in its magazine and one in the chamber.

Still since changing magazines can be accomplished very quickly with only a little practice, I see no true value in banning hi-cap magazines. Hi-cap mags are also less reliable than standard mags and often jam the firearm a feeding malfunction is far more difficult and timely to clear than changing a magazine.

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Response to spin (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:20 PM

22. Most of my AR-15 magazines are military surplus 30-rounders. I bought them because they were...

 

...the least expensive ones available at the time when I was buying AR-15 accessories back in the late 1990s. Any 5- or 10-rounder from a manufacturer like ArmaLite or Bushmaster was priced ridiculously high, and after-market ones had questionable reputations for reliability. A USGI 30-rounder that isn't badly worn out is very reliable. I actually like the 20-rounders better, but they've always been scarce.

I like the flexibility of being able to load as few or as many rounds as I wish.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:38 PM

25. yup the surplus ones are the pretty good. i got thirty in total for both my m4 and m16 pretty cheap

 

Was trying to get some more fifteen round glock mags this week but everywhere is sold out due to panic buying so i will have to wait.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:52 PM

2. Is someone arguing that they aren't?

I think the most common argument about large magazines and their relationship to mass killings is that without them, such atrocities aren't really all that much more difficult to commit.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:01 PM

3. Ever wonder why the military doesn't use three round magazines?

Your argument is extremely weak... It is obvious to anyone that pays attention that large capacity magazines are not needed for any reason other than firing a lot of bullets and if those bullets are used as designed that means killing.........It is a lot easier to kill ten people with a weapon holding a thirty round magazine/clip than it is with a weapon holding only three rounds at a time.....

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Response to Bandit (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:07 PM

4. The military uses standard magazines.

Usually they are 20 rounds. A) They are more reliable, oversize magazines are more prone to jam. B) It ecourages troops to be more frugal with ammunition, also why automatic weapons have a 3-round burst position on select fire.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:14 PM

7. Of course mass shooters don't have a reason

to be frugal with ammo. On the other hand if manufacturers can be guaranteed to make 30 and 100 round magazines that don't work when used, then I say let them be available. I just watched a video with someone who put 100 rounds through a Saiga 12 gauge shotgun in about a minute using 5 20 round drums. No hang ups or misfires. Think about the lethality of that especially when you combine with bump/slide firing into a crowd.

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:33 PM

11. The increased rate of fire comes with a decrease in accuracy.

Firing wildly into a crowd will no question kill and wound many. However, it is inefficient. Once a person is dead, putting extra bullets into the body is wastefull (although the gunfire itself creates terror). And of course bullets that go wild neither kill or wound. Ammunition is a concern because it costs money, but more important it's heavy. If these were experienced shooters (say with military experience) they likely would use a combination of pump-action shotgun (possibly sawed-off barrel), and a couple of handguns with a few extra magazines. Then a little time to aim more carefully and make the shots count. In some cases, like Aurora, it would have doubled the casualties. In Sandy Hook, likely little difference...the inability of the shooter to get in the classrooms that were locked prevented greater casualties.

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Response to Bandit (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:34 PM

13. I think you misread my argument.

I'm saying that no one's claiming that large magazines don't make these sort of crimes easier. I'm simply saying they don't make them as much easier as some seem to think. The most common limit one years proposes is 10 rounds. One 30 rounder vs 3 10-rounders means two magazine changes worth of time difference. That could be a lot of time (if shooter fumbled the changes) or it could mean about an additional three or four seconds, total. It's impossible to say for any given situation.

I'm not saying that banning large magazines wouldn't have an effect. I'm saying that there's a very good chance that any effect would be impossible to discern from gun death numbers.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:11 PM

5. Which is crazy and disproved by events

For example the Giffords shooting ended when he had to switch magazines. Think about opening up with a 30 round magazine in a crowd versus 5 times with a 6 round magazine. You have four times as many opportunities for a mechanical failure or clumsy mistake during the reload, being tackled by those in the crowd around you, additional time that will allow first responders to respond, and, yes, even CCW holders to rise up and pop the shooter. You can also seek cover during a sniping event (like the firemen).

They are more difficult to commit and can lead to saved lives. That being said can you keep high capacity magazines out of the hands of nuts? In the short term not so much, but over time those in the system will exit the easily obtainable channels. A ban would prevent public practice with them and slow down the commerce in them.

You have to deal with most likely scenarios. Would Lanza's mom have 30 round capacity magazines around if they were illegal? Probably not. Could Lanza had gotten one - probably but it would have taken more effort? Would it have made a difference in that case? I don't know but their are scenarios were it would make a difference.

Now does the benefit of 30 and 100 round magazines outweigh the cost? I am willing to bet banning them has a better societal payback that $10B/yr for LEO in the schools.

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:38 PM

17. No, his magazine jammed.

He used a 33 round magazine, but only fired 31 rounds. If he started with one in the chamber plus a full magazine then he had 34 rounds loaded. As the rounds are stripped off by being fired the spring in the magazine extends more and becomes weaker until it fails to properly feed the rounds into the chamber. Then the shooter has to clear the jam, which usually will require the magazine to be removed. That's when he was tackled.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:27 PM

23. yup magazine jams happen more with high capacity mags

 

I only use fifteen round mags for my glocks as i would rather do a combat load than have one thirty round paperweight after two rounds. Same as my m16a1 and m14 i have found thirty round mags more than sufficient and not prone to the jamming that i have seen with bigger mags.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:19 PM

26. And if he got off six

instead of 31 rounds? Would that have made a difference?

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:34 PM

27. Why six?

Are you going to try to outlaw all semi-auto and allow revolvers only? Is your magic number for magazines six? To give you an answer I would need to have more information on why six.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:50 PM

28. 10, 15, 20

You pick the number. The more bullets without a magazine change, the more chance for killing someone. It is common sense.

That was the original question. Potential lethality is increased by having more shots available. I doubt you could get a six shot restriction (probably can't get a 10 shot restriction either in this country), but potential lethality increases as the number in the magazine increases. Maybe it is better for this nut cases to use unreliable 30 shot magazines since they will jam anyway. Interesting argument.

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:46 PM

30. Cho, the Virginia tech murderer got off 170 shots using only ten round mags

 

He reloaded 17 times and killed 32 people. A ban on hi cap mags will do no good.

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:05 PM

31. I choose no restriction. N/T

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:11 PM

6. To create a scarey appearence, IMO.

Same reason for their dress. They want an aura of terror to be part of their infamy. If they dressed in a suit and tie, and used a couple of handguns, they wouldn't get the attention they seek.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:14 PM

8. You'll never know when you need another 21-100 rounds to take down a deer.

They can be remarkably resilient.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:22 PM

9. Don't you understand

They are grinding the venison while killing it. Anybody up for a little venison burger?

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Response to leveymg (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:41 PM

18. You may need them if you run into a pack of feral hogs.

They are tough, and can be vicious, often attacking in packs.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:28 PM

10. Handguns are used more often. What does that mean??

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Response to Logical (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:37 PM

14. The majority of homicides involve only a few fired shots.

And of course, suicides are only one.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:37 PM

15. I meant for mass shootings. Handguns are used most often.

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Response to Logical (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:42 PM

19. Handguns are used for 75% of all homicides.

They are more easily concealed...important to felons who don't want to be caught in possession of a firearm.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:33 PM

12. For the scary image.

Rampage shooting are a form of performance theater. The killer wants the spotlight and adopts an image for the deadly show. For actual effectiveness he could do as the VT killer and the Luby's killer did and have two guns and simply reload quickly.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:38 PM

16. Yes, agreed.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:47 PM

20. Ranchers with bum eyes and iron sites pitted against wiley coyotes

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:33 PM

24. Just edited the OP to clarify my question

 

n/t

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:28 PM

29. I think your quetion is flawed. Hi capacity mags are very helpful...

...otherwise theynwouldn't be desirable.

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