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Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:50 PM

 

If you support the RTKBA over the right to life - you are not a progressive

The term for you is REGRESSIVE

As in, you want the world to be one, bug painball game or laser tag game - only people really die. Whoopee!!!

Now you can have both, but not BUDGING an INCH on gun safety issues shows you for the thug you are.

There is NO FUCKING REASON anyone needs semi-auto weapons.

If you feel your rights are threatened by this, then you don't value MY right to live.

IF you don't value my rights, you are a fascist, plain and simple.

So what is it going to be?

Value life?

Or fetishize weapons?
'
We all know the REAL reason you want big guns, and I'm sorry you were born that way.

154 replies, 7770 views

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Arrow 154 replies Author Time Post
Reply If you support the RTKBA over the right to life - you are not a progressive (Original post)
Taverner Dec 2012 OP
Hoyt Dec 2012 #1
TheMoreYouKnow Dec 2012 #2
Taverner Dec 2012 #4
TheMoreYouKnow Dec 2012 #11
Ikonoklast Dec 2012 #51
TheMoreYouKnow Dec 2012 #57
Ikonoklast Dec 2012 #60
LiberalFighter Dec 2012 #104
Ikonoklast Dec 2012 #131
Taverner Dec 2012 #70
Ikonoklast Dec 2012 #92
renie408 Dec 2012 #136
DainBramaged Dec 2012 #126
Hoyt Dec 2012 #54
TheMoreYouKnow Dec 2012 #58
Hoyt Dec 2012 #61
TheMoreYouKnow Dec 2012 #63
Hoyt Dec 2012 #65
Ikonoklast Dec 2012 #94
Hoyt Dec 2012 #108
Bake Dec 2012 #117
Hoyt Dec 2012 #121
Bake Dec 2012 #149
Hoyt Dec 2012 #150
Bake Dec 2012 #151
Hoyt Dec 2012 #152
Bake Dec 2012 #153
rl6214 Dec 2012 #140
TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #99
jtuck004 Dec 2012 #67
OrwellwasRight Dec 2012 #75
Recursion Dec 2012 #89
Taverner Dec 2012 #93
Bake Dec 2012 #119
jtuck004 Dec 2012 #148
discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2012 #96
Taverner Dec 2012 #97
discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2012 #100
Taverner Dec 2012 #101
discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2012 #109
patrice Dec 2012 #15
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #59
patrice Dec 2012 #62
Floyd_Gondolli Dec 2012 #26
TheMoreYouKnow Dec 2012 #28
Floyd_Gondolli Dec 2012 #29
TheMoreYouKnow Dec 2012 #31
Floyd_Gondolli Dec 2012 #32
99th_Monkey Dec 2012 #56
Skittles Dec 2012 #39
Indydem Dec 2012 #3
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #5
Taverner Dec 2012 #7
Indydem Dec 2012 #9
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #12
Indydem Dec 2012 #16
Jeff In Milwaukee Dec 2012 #22
Electric Monk Dec 2012 #55
Ikonoklast Dec 2012 #64
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #82
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #87
patrice Dec 2012 #25
shadowrider Dec 2012 #33
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #36
Skittles Dec 2012 #41
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #43
Skittles Dec 2012 #45
Taverner Dec 2012 #71
LiberalFighter Dec 2012 #111
Taverner Dec 2012 #6
rbixby Dec 2012 #81
Taverner Dec 2012 #84
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #8
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #44
patrice Dec 2012 #10
Taverner Dec 2012 #14
shadowrider Dec 2012 #34
theKed Dec 2012 #129
theKed Dec 2012 #130
patrice Dec 2012 #52
HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #13
Blue_In_AK Dec 2012 #17
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #20
Blue_In_AK Dec 2012 #24
OneMoreDemocrat Dec 2012 #18
atreides1 Dec 2012 #19
Jeff In Milwaukee Dec 2012 #23
Taverner Dec 2012 #27
patrice Dec 2012 #37
Taverner Dec 2012 #79
Whovian Dec 2012 #21
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #30
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #38
slackmaster Dec 2012 #35
Floyd_Gondolli Dec 2012 #40
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #46
Floyd_Gondolli Dec 2012 #48
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #50
Taverner Dec 2012 #78
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #80
Taverner Dec 2012 #83
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #85
Taverner Dec 2012 #88
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #90
slackmaster Dec 2012 #47
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #42
michigandem58 Dec 2012 #49
Taverner Dec 2012 #77
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #53
Taverner Dec 2012 #76
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #138
hootinholler Dec 2012 #66
Taverner Dec 2012 #72
hootinholler Dec 2012 #122
abelenkpe Dec 2012 #68
Taverner Dec 2012 #74
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #91
Swamp Lover Dec 2012 #69
Taverner Dec 2012 #73
Swamp Lover Dec 2012 #154
pasto76 Dec 2012 #86
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #95
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #98
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #105
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #107
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #110
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #112
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #115
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #120
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #123
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #125
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #127
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #128
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #132
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #133
beevul Dec 2012 #147
Savannahmann Dec 2012 #102
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #106
Initech Dec 2012 #103
Demo_Chris Dec 2012 #113
discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2012 #116
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #118
REP Dec 2012 #114
DainBramaged Dec 2012 #124
Th1onein Dec 2012 #134
PeaceNikki Dec 2012 #135
OmahaBlueDog Dec 2012 #137
rl6214 Dec 2012 #139
Taverner Dec 2012 #142
rl6214 Dec 2012 #144
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #141
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #143
rl6214 Dec 2012 #145
flvegan Dec 2012 #146

Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:52 PM

1. +A Bunch.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:52 PM

2. Anyone who kicks in the front door of someone's home

 

clearly doesn't value their own right to life and I'm certainly not going to sit down over coffee to discuss with them what their true intentions are.

When did it become progressive to allow other people to take advantage of you and/or harm you?

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Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:54 PM

4. If that happens, your gun won't save you

 

Think about it...is he going to wait while you go dig up your weapon?

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Response to Taverner (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:00 PM

11. I don't own and carry a firearm because it might happen

 

I own a carry a firearm because it has happened to me once and I believe I saved the lives of my family and myself because I was prepared for it. No amount of trolling is going to change my mind about that and I couldn't possibly care less if you believe me or not so keep that bullshit to yourself as well.

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Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:47 PM

51. Why does everyone that ever defended themsleves with a firearm also own such cheap doors?

Seems like if the bought anything other than a cardboard door they would be able to deter criminals a little better.

Cool story, Bro.

Unless you have a copy of the police report, no, sorry, it's just another intraweb story by a gunner.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #51)


Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:13 PM

60. What did you replace the "kicked-in" door with?

Or did you just leave it hanging there half-demolished and purchased another peashooter with the money instead?


First line of defense should always be passive.

You're doing it wrong.


Enjoy your stay.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #60)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:38 PM

104. What do military tactical experts do to minimize the attack?

Fortify themselves. Create obstacles and barriers.

Too many 2A think the gun is the be all of everything. It is only 1 component of an attack or defense.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #104)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:24 PM

131. First thing I did when I bought this house years ago was replace the front door.

Insulated steel door hung in a steel frame, looks just like a wooden door on the outside, quite decorative. Double deadbolts, one blind from the outside.

It was cheaper than a middle-priced handgun, and I've never needed to re-load it yet.

Cheap insurance against a break-in; at least it will slow them down quite a bit

You'd need to pound on that sucker for a bit before it gave way, you'd be better off trying to get in by busting a window...but then I'd have a distinct advantage as you tried to squeeze through.


Actual 'home invasions' done by bad guys when people are home are actually quite rare, bad guys like to break in when no one is home.


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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #51)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:32 PM

70. It's because most of these stories are made up

 

Who knows? The gun nut might even believe their own lies...

Strange breed, those gun nuts

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Response to Taverner (Reply #70)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:12 PM

92. Try to kick down even a cheap front door.

Happens all the times in the movie, one kick and boom! you're inside the house.




Funny how the police need their biggest guy with a ram specially designed to break down doors, even on cheap interior apartment doors, and it takes more than a little effort for them to do so.


Maybe the cops need to watch more movies to see how the Bad Guys do it.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #92)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:38 PM

136. We lived in a double wide for awhile and it had the cheapest doors EVER.

My daughter accidentally locked the bathroom door off the kitchen and then pulled it closed, so it was locked from the inside and nobody was in there. The hinges were on the inside, too, so we couldn't just tap the pins out and take it off the hinges from the side we were on. My husband, who is a construction worker and strong as hell, thought he would get macho, kick it open and just replace it afterward.

HOLY SHIT!! That cheap ass door was next to impossible to kick in! He finally ended up kicking a hole in it and reaching through and unlocking the door. But we were ramming it, kicking it and laughing our asses off for a good twenty minutes before we got through the thing.

So, that thing he wrote about any adult kicking a front door in with a couple of good kicks is bullshit. I train horses and have all my life. We have maintained farms with at least 20 horses in stalls all of our adult lives. My husband works construction. I can heft two 50 lb feed bags at once even now. I am trying to say that we are probably stronger, fitter and more physical than the average adult. And this was about 15 years ago, when we would have been in our early 30's. We couldn't get through a cheap interior door that easily. I don't think the average adult can kick in a front door with a few good kicks.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #51)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:08 PM

126. Because instead of giving themselves seconds to arm/discourage via steel doors and frames

they think they're Roy Rodgers and can get to the gun and drop the intruder faster.


Such bravery from our obese society.


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Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:55 PM

54. Guns and such anger don't mix well.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #54)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:03 PM

58. neither do legal gun owners and people looking to cause them harm.

 

but I guess those people don't count, they don't support your anti-rights agenda.

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Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:14 PM

61. I sure hope you don't pack in public as well.

Those with a gun in their pants and a chip on their shoulder, are a threat to society. Heck, some 6 year old might pop a bag and start a gun fight.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:19 PM

63. I've carried legally for as long as I can remember

 

the only person with a chip on their shoulder is the one who has the nerve to claim that I'm a threat to them while they try to eliminate my right to defend myself.

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Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #63)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:24 PM

65. Typical gun toter rhetoric. Tell your boy LaPierre hello.



I've got better things to do.

Hug your guns and enjoy your stay.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #65)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:23 PM

94. It was ever so brief.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #94)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:40 PM

108. Another right wing gun cultist entering and welcomed by Gungeoneers.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:54 PM

117. You assume, wrongly, that anyone who carries has a chip on his/her shoulder.

My niece likes to jog. People have been mugged while doing that in public parks (Central Park Jogger, anyone?). She carries, legally.

She is the sweetest lady you'd ever want to meet. She is also an expert shot. She is NOT what so many of you would label a "gun nut," "gun worshipper," or any other derogatory label. She is a law abiding citizen who feels better when she runs alone if she has S&W with her.

But then, I suppose the parks aren't intended for law-abiding citizens any more.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #117)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:00 PM

121. Women tend to be more responsible than men about guns.

As a general rule, I'm against public toting. Especially those like our just banned buddy and other gun cultists.

To allow your niece to tote, we have to allow a bunch of callous, cowboys to pollute society. Just not sure it is worth it. Sorry.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #121)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:11 PM

149. So the law abiding citizens don't get to jog in the park.

We leave the parks for the drug deals, muggers, and rapists. Beautiful. Land of the free.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #149)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:32 PM

150. George Zimmerman, Loughner, Holmes, Stawicki, etc., were all law-abiding according to gun

culture. And you guys never take responsibility for the indirect effects of your bad habits

Sorry, your poor little gun plight doesn't phase me cause I've heard all before. How about thinking about society before strapping on a gun or two before venturing out.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #150)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:24 PM

151. Sorry. I can carry legally.

Sorry that upsets you. But you're not likely to get it changed.

And I have no bad habits when it comes to guns. Haven't had to shoot anybody. But if it comes down to "him or me," it's going to be HIM.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #151)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:37 PM

152. Lots of things are legal, yet immoral, menace to society, etc.

Enjoy your guns.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #152)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:40 PM

153. The gun is an inanimate object, neither moral nor immoral.

I never use it in an immoral manner.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #117)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:01 PM

140. That's just the way Hoyt is to anyone that doesn't drink his koolaide

 

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Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:30 PM

99. And 1 arsehole in a 1000 survives being ejected from...

 

...a burning wreck and credits his survival to his He Man like refusal to buckle under to the dictates of a nanny state.

1) Human beings are notorious for being unable to properly assess risk at all.
2) Human beings are notorious for discounting risk in almost inverse proportion to pecieved benefits.


You just demonstrated the above when you essentially said that you know what you know and bullshit facts aren't going to sway you.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:27 PM

67. You are dead wrong on that one. 18 yo mother, husband died of cancer on Christmas

a week before. Is stalked by a couple guys with screw drivers who start to open her front door by force, where by that time she is huddling in her bedroom with her baby and a shotgun. She is on the phone with police dispatchers, asked them what to do. They told her to protect her life, and when the little bastards started coming through her front door, she did.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/okla-woman-shoots-kills-intruder911-operators-shoot/story?id=15285605#.UNuGe6zp6js

There are tens of millions of families who live outside of any possible timely help, and we will be long gone before anyone ever gets their guns. And rightly so.

But are there too many out there? Probably. But as we vacuum those up, maybe we should start showing people that human life is valuable, by investing in jobs and adult training as a nation, or quit lying about it. The objective is to stop people from shooting each other, not take away the guns (well, for people who want progress instead of busy work it should be).



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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #67)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:39 PM

75. Interesting you said shotgun.

A shotgun is not a semi automatic weapon, and the OP is about semiautomatic weapons. No one is trying to pry this woman's shotgun out of her hands and your post provides proff that she did not need a semiautomatic weapon to defend herself.

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Response to OrwellwasRight (Reply #75)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:55 PM

89. There are semi-automatic shotguns. There are shotguns that are assault weapons (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #89)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:15 PM

93. Then not those.

 

I mean the double barrel ones

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Response to OrwellwasRight (Reply #75)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:57 PM

119. No one? Really?

I suspect OP would disagree. And I've seen PLENTY of "confiscate ALL the guns" posts right here in GD.

Bake

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Response to OrwellwasRight (Reply #75)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:39 AM

148. Actually a shotgun is often a semi-automatic weapon, and some other reading I have

done, plus some local news reports, indicate it was a semi-automatic shorter barrel.

Most any flatland hunter (hundreds of thousands?) in Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas, Texas, Colorado, etc. uses semi-auto shotguns, frequently shooting at least 2 and sometimes 3 or more shots.

The woman in the trailer had two guns, I think the other was a 9mm, almost always a semi-auto. The shotgun could have held 7 (8 w/1 chambered(?) shells, though with a blocking pin only 3 (hunting restriction). It sounds like she made good tactical decisions, and what was in the best interests of her and her infant.

Regardless of the details I would really like to see changes that reduce the 32,000 murders/suicides. The least we could do is get rid of excess assault-type rifles, but it may make some folks feel better. We will have to wait and see if there is any real difference in the trends that are already published, though I think it will take a much larger conversation and addressing some very real fears.





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Response to Taverner (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:26 PM

96. Just let me know...

...where you bought your crystal ball so I can get one.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #96)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:27 PM

97. Ah the "superspy comes to kill me" defense...

 

Is the wookie defense part of this?

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Response to Taverner (Reply #97)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:32 PM

100. There's this term.

It's used to characterize arguments and accusations.

"non sequitur"

Google it and read-up, my friend.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #100)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:33 PM

101. Does not follow - which is YOUR argument

 

Really, you wanna pull that shit on me?

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Response to Taverner (Reply #101)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:40 PM

109. Really n/t

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Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:04 PM

15. We agree about that. Some of us have legit reasons to fear Concealed Carry in PUBLIC.

I'd be okay with guns in public as long as I stand half of a chance of knowing where they are.

And, yes, assault weapons concern me too, for reasons I have sketched here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022074031#post49

Solutions?

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Response to patrice (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:05 PM

59. Agreed - Concealed Carry Is Menace To Society

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #59)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:15 PM

62. There are places I would like to go, but I don't AND I'm not the only one AND that fact, plane &

not so simple, is why those places are the way they are.

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Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:14 PM

26. You seem to enjoy this fantasy

 

Admit it, you've got a hard on to shoot someone, right?

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Response to Floyd_Gondolli (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:17 PM

28. What kind of fucking moron would see their family being in harm's way

 

as a fantasy?

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Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:19 PM

29. The kind who is into hero fantasies?

 

Which is something many gun nuts are deeply involved in.

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Response to Floyd_Gondolli (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:26 PM

31. great, then talk to gun nuts about that

 

and leave average people like myself alone. Your pathetic attempts at insulting me are just that.

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Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:27 PM

32. Lock and load!

 

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Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #31)


Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:36 PM

39. the usual paranoia strikes again

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:53 PM

3. That is an exceptionally bold statement.

But the problem with it is that you are equating that RKBA is in conflict with "right to life"

RKBA is not the opposite of life.

Most guns do not murder people.

Most guns are used for peaceful purposes and will never be pointed at a person for any reason.

You don't like guns. We get it. Do you feel better now?

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Response to Indydem (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:55 PM

5. I think that there is a difference between gun owner and gun NUT.

If you refuse to discuss regulation, you're probably a nut.
If you refuse to discuss registration, you're probably a nut.
If you say we should ban knives, cars, pools, dogs, forks, etc because they 'kill more people' than guns, you're probably a nut.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:56 PM

7. +100000

 

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:58 PM

9. Unfortunately that isnot the prevailing idea around here.

Licensing - sure. I can go for that.
Mandatory safety classes - Absolutely.
Registration - it's a broad idea, but I can be persuaded.

A gun ban. Repealing the second amendment. A forced buyback. All of these are non-starters with me. Does that make me a "nut?"

Because I see too many of those things being discussed here, and it makes me very sad indeed.

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Response to Indydem (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:01 PM

12. Oh, bull... you're wrong on that being the 'prevailing idea around here'.

You just are.


Sure there are some 'discussing' bans/buybacks, but that is NOT the 'prevailing idea around here'. At all.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:05 PM

16. I've spent the last 2 weeks getting destroyed.

And I can tell you there are a hell of a lot of people on this forum who do not believe in 2a or the RKBA. Period

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:11 PM

22. Depends on how you define "prevailing"

I've seen plenty of threads on repealing the second amendment, limiting all firearms to single shot bolt action, etc. etc. etc. There's a lot of that going on -- which is not to say that it's "prevailing," but it is pretty common.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:58 PM

55. Check out their transparency page. Quite revealing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=187405&sub=trans
We aren't touchy about it. Dec 25
We DID have that kind of violence we have today. Dec 17
Could that have anything to do with the fact that these shooters choose gun-free zones? Dec 17
Why is it any of your business, troll? Dec 15
Well it's good that she was the first to die. Dec 15
Well then fuck you. Dec 15


Every single hidden post comes down to how much they love their guns. Hmm...

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #55)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:22 PM

64. Lots of anger there....against words posted by a stranger, on an internet board.

Poster boy for the right of angry people to remain armed.

Another person that just might get on LaPierre's list of too deranged to remain armed and a menace to society.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:49 PM

82. I don't know about prevailing, but he's right that gun owners generally have been called nuts here..

and attacked repeatedly if they don't want out and out bans of all guns, repeal of the 2nd Amendment, etc., even when (as in every gun owner case here I've seen) they are in favor of gun control such as banning sales of assault weapons (however they end up being defined), high count mags, registration.

There are a number of reasonable posts, but there are some who have gone ape over this issue and are dominating the forum, and attack or alert anyone who disagrees with their position (which could be called extreme in some instances).

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #82)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:54 PM

87. While I am not in the camp you describe, I shed no tears for you. You have the NRA and PLENTY of

support from people with money and power.

If I had to pick a side of one extreme or the other today, I would not side with the NRA.

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Response to Indydem (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:14 PM

25. Anything going on on this board, you MUST factor in trollery of one degree or another.

My personal criteria is that the more extreme ANY position is, "Left" or "Right" or whatever, the more likely it is designed to fuck with whatever it posits for an agenda, or agendas.

I make a personal commitment myself to thesis <---> anti-thesis = synthesis, but a pseudo form of that dynamic, less up-front about its logic and, hence, less tolerant of logical cross-examination, can be used in a variety of ways, most of which do not serve the putative position of a post.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:33 PM

33. Am I a gun owner, or a gun nut?

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:35 PM

36. I don't know you, but you're clearly willing to discuss things that can be done. My vote is NOT nut.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:37 PM

41. if you keep asking people to define "gun nut"

YOU ARE MOST DEFINITELY A GUN NUT

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Response to Skittles (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:38 PM

43. If you agree with anything Ted Nugent says, YOU ARE MOST DEFINITELY A GUN NUT.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #43)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:41 PM

45. OMG PeaceNikki

the idea that some DUers want to be in the same company as LaPierre and Nugent......

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:34 PM

71. If your firearm has a name...you might be a gun nut

 

If you own more than seven weapons...you might be a gun nut

If you like to make up stories about "armed assassins kicking in your door"...you might be a gun nut

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Response to Taverner (Reply #71)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:45 PM

111. Especially if your firearm is your baby.

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Response to Indydem (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:56 PM

6. I have no problems with a gun

 

I have problems with people who keep enough weapons to start a small war...

And if this is the RTKBA then FUCK THAT RIGHT. IT has no place in a civilized world.

And gun "collectors" are not civilized people. Mentally ill more like it.

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Response to Indydem (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:49 PM

81. Isn't RKBA kind of about using the guns for killing people though?

I think that was the founder's intent, it didn't say 'a well regulated hunting party'

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Response to rbixby (Reply #81)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:50 PM

84. Many here think killing someone is just like in Rambo...

 

They go 'Pew!Pew!Pew!' and the music kicks in, maybe a flag fluttering in the distance...

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:58 PM

8. This tantrum totally persuaded me to the OPs position

that he wants attention.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:41 PM

44. poor thing has been neglected and is searching for the Mother Love.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:59 PM

10. Honestly! I'm not entirely comfortable, but willing to compromise a little to respect the rights of

others, but all I'm seeing on the other side is extremeness, false-dochotomies, zero-sum stratagems, the nature of which is the very thing that they predict.

Why is it so hard to admit that the status quo mixes the bad guys with the good guys?

Put this country in more severe environmental conditions and WHAT happens? Sorry, I'm not willing to go there for some unidentified entities' propaganda about something they call "liberty".

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Response to patrice (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:03 PM

14. I just get sick of the knee jerk reaction to any talk of regulation

 

Or taking Semi Autos off the market

There would still be guns, and there would even be handguns.

But no, they want the right to arm themselves to the teeth

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Response to Taverner (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:35 PM

34. Most handguns are semi-auto

so to say ban semi-auto's but you can keep handguns is a conflicting statement.

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:19 PM

129. Plenty of revolvers are on the market

5 or 6 shots, more than enough to defend yourself, and more reliable than a semiauto pistol, very important in an emergency.

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:19 PM

130. Plenty of revolvers are on the market

5 or 6 shots, more than enough to defend yourself, and more reliable than a semiauto pistol, very important in an emergency.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:48 PM

52. My vision of the future, especially the future for more troubled cohorts, in their OWN communities

is seriously darkened by these blind responses.

It's tragic because gun advocacy absolutely creates the very thing that is the supposed justification for their own behaviors to literal and concrete EXCLUSION of any other justification for any other way of life. It's fucking suicide portrayed as heroism.

I'm sorry, maybe I am saying it too much lately, but this IS Facism writ quit large.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:03 PM

13. Seems to me that just gives name calling a new suit of clothes

in the hope to clearly demean your opponent.

It's done all the time around DU, but it's just a way to give people a way to say "I'm one of the good ones, and THEY ARE BAD"

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:05 PM

17. I'm so out of the loop.

Would someone tell me what RTKBA stands for?

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:07 PM

20. right to keep and bear arms

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:12 PM

24. Well, duh.

Of course. Thank you.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:05 PM

18. Oops, when you mentioned the 'right to life', I thought you were saying you supported...

 

banning abortions.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:06 PM

19. "Right to Life"

You couldn't come up with something that isn't already being used by mean, nasty people who stand outside of Planned Parenthood clinics?


I guess I don't value your "rights".

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:12 PM

23. I thought the same thing...

RTKBA and "Right to Life" are (to my ears) BOTH right wing positions.

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:14 PM

27. Sorry - best I could come up with

 

And taking semi autos off the streets protects life a whole lot more than those who want the uterus as state property

Honestly - fuck them. They should stop calling themselves pro life. Because they aren't.. Not one bit.

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:35 PM

37. They do need a new way of referring to authentic Right to Life that recognizes OUR very very real

responsibilities for things such as Capital Punishment and War as being equal to the factors under our own power that influence (but don't control) women's decisions about abortion or not.

Old line Liberal Catholics recognize what that Right to Life label refers to and the difference between it and the Pro-Oppression version of same that is the fuel behind intolerance and even hate against LGBTQ and, also, obviously the infantilization and oppression of women and is also responsible for the End Times mindset that drives us into illegal and immoral wars.

Original Right to Life used to be called "seamless cloak" pro-life and it has relevance here because the classic position says that Capital Punishment is wrong because it refuses to accept our own responsibilities for how people end up killing other people and receiving a sentence of capital punishment. Seamless Cloak recognizes that the wrong doer DOES more or less choose to do wrong, but it also directs us to our own responsibilities that affect their choice to one degree or another. You can't judge them unless you have HONESTLY judged yourself and actively attempted to amend your ways so as not to bias their choices in ways that hurt them and others.

In re guns: Humans are essentially biology; everything starts and ends there. So, for example, criminals who get in trouble with guns: Like addicts, can we blame addicts 100% for the effects of addictive behaviors, when we have either acted to surround them with or have done nothing about them being surrounded by, a cornucopia of addictive substances? Just saying, TTE, "People should ____________________ (whatever). Just say no. And that's it." is bullshit. People are different, have different ranges of abilities, emotional responses, different environments, different histories. Kicking a dog because it doesn't sing opera, makes monsters out of you and the dog and kills singing outright.

All of that is part of the original LIBERAL Catholic teaching on seamless cloak right to life that says those criminals deserve as much of a chance as fetuses do. That line of thought has been bastardized and commercialized for a bunch of people's careers and that position is what is currently known as Pro-Life, but isn't REALLY pro-life from this obsolete liberal catholic perspective.

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Response to patrice (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:42 PM

79. Yes. Exactly.

 

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:08 PM

21. K&R

 

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:26 PM

30. No. Tell me Big Guy exactly, how was I born?

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:35 PM

38. lol!! nt

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:35 PM

35. False dilemma, a common logical fallacy

 

Also Known as: Black & White Thinking.
Description of False Dilemma

A False Dilemma is a fallacy in which a person uses the following pattern of "reasoning":

1. Either claim X is true or claim Y is true (when X and Y could both be false).
2. Claim Y is false.
3. Therefore claim X is true.


http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #35)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:36 PM

40. Both sides practice this

 

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Response to Floyd_Gondolli (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:42 PM

46. but, which side started this thread?

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #46)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:43 PM

48. Meh....sort of irrelevant

 

If you've been around since Sandy Hook you would have seen it both ways. Google is your friend.

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Response to Floyd_Gondolli (Reply #48)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:44 PM

50. very much relevant to this thread. IF? please. I changed your Momma's diapers.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #50)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:42 PM

78. My biggest fan! If I said the sky was blue, you'd claim it was red.

 

But that's just you - you little stalker you!

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Response to Taverner (Reply #78)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:48 PM

80. Floyd_Gondolli, is that you? did you get you get your socks confused?

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #80)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:49 PM

83. news from you - I am, and have only ever been, Taverner

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #83)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:53 PM

85. Then; Why are You all up in this subthread chasing me down, stalker.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #85)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:54 PM

88. That's not me...

 

Past hour I was shopping

Not my fault you end up pissing off others too...

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Response to Taverner (Reply #88)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:56 PM

90. like I always say, better pissed off than pissed on. C ya, Floyd_Gondolli, dueces.

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Response to Floyd_Gondolli (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:43 PM

47. Chickens most definitely came first

 

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:38 PM

42. Nice false dichotomy ya got there.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:43 PM

49. You seem to be confusing RTKBA with supporting assault weapons

 

n/t

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Response to michigandem58 (Reply #49)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:40 PM

77. You seem to be confusing your trolling with something meaninfgul

 

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:48 PM

53. So you oppose a woman's right to choice?

 

I'll go ahead and assume that you really do support choice but the fact is there are very few absolutes and you have misplaced the blame for a terrible tragedy.

And just for the record, I support the total abolition of all firearms with the only exceptions being the military and a few special police units, period.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #53)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:39 PM

76. Right to life not in the Anti Abortion context

 

But right to keep your life safe from a gun nut

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Response to Taverner (Reply #76)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:02 PM

138. You seem to have missed the main point. That being about absolutes and the implied second

 

point about guns. Many people, yourself among them, have taken this opportunity to blame the an object and leap to an erroneous conclusion regarding a non-solution.

Yes, we have more firearms in private hands than anybody else, but the percentages don't balance. Canada, Switzerland, some others have a relatively high percentage of private firearm ownership, but don't have nearly the corresponding number of firearm murders or crime in general. If/when we finally get rid of the guns, we'll have the highest murder rate for axes, knives, fountain pens, hands and feet, and so on.

We simply make more people that feel killing is the solution to whatever problem they think they have than anybody else. That's our fault. The problem is our sick society. until we address that, everything else is mental masturbation.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:25 PM

66. Ah once again the Not True Scotsman arguement raises it head

I suggest that Teddy Roosevelt would disagree wiht you on your definition of progressive. After all, he's the guy who started the label progressive.

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Response to hootinholler (Reply #66)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:37 PM

72. Ah the "names are meaningless" fallacy

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #72)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:04 PM

122. To the contrary

I contend names are indeed meaningful. Further, I contend you are misusing them by citing the founder of the progressive movement.

Please continue, don't let that stop you.

Oh, and my apologies for my horrendous typos in the first reply.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:00 PM

68. I don't understand why we can't just do the same as

Australia? People still have guns there.

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #68)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:38 PM

74. Because Gun Nuts would rather everyone die in a standoff...

 

Than give up their best friends in the whole world...

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Response to Taverner (Reply #74)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:58 PM

91. Oh, look: yet more bullshit amateur psychoanalysis...

...from a hate-bot. So much fail.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:18 PM

69. I support your right to be an idiot.

 

I do not, however, recognize you as the Gate Keeper to Progressivism.

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Response to Swamp Lover (Reply #69)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:37 PM

73. Does your "piece" have a name?

 

Just wondering, tiger...

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Response to Taverner (Reply #73)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 09:34 PM

154. No. My daughter and my graddaughter have names.

 

All of my family members have names.

And none of them are idiots or drama queens.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)


Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:25 PM

95. So youre implying rightful gun owners are " fascists " and dont care about your life?

Wow...

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #95)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:30 PM

98. I understood it to be directed at those who totally refuse to budge and discuss gun control.


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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #98)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:38 PM

105. We discuss gun control all the time.

Most pro RKBA folks are for sensitive gun control, I don't see anyone saying owning or carying a firearm shouldn't be regulated.

The OP is going after all gun owners in a very unkind manner.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #105)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:40 PM

107. I don't read it that way at ALL, but I have no guns I cling to.



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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #107)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:43 PM

110. Yah well, then you didnt read it too objectivly at all.

And that " gun clinging " thing is our constitutional right. Sorry you have a problem with it.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #110)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:45 PM

112. lol, I just want it better fucking REGULATED, dude. That's my fucking 'problem'.

I just think we should DISCUSS what we can do to make it harder for people to shoot each other. Sorry you have a problem with THAT.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #112)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:53 PM

115. I have a problem with the name calling, " dude ".

Not discussing gun control regulations. And we can read normal letters just fine.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #115)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:59 PM

120. I see. I didn't realize gun owners were such delicate flowers whose feelings are hurt so easily

especially when the anger and names are specifically aimed at those who don't want to "budge an inch on gun safety issues".

But I understand the paranoia with the NRA and right-wing feeding you all the lies that they do.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #120)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:05 PM

123. Ahh so now youre implying we're listening to right wing media and the NRA??



Wow!! But then again, youre supporting an OP who's calling us "regressives" and "fascists", so I shouldn't be that surprised.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #123)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:07 PM

125. Only if you totally refuse to budge on gun control.

If you believe it should be discussed and result in meaningful regulation, I don't think any of it applies at all.


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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #125)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:16 PM

127. Youre throwing insults left and right just like the OP, but claim you want a serious discussion

Well good luck with that, because no one will take you seriously.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #127)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:18 PM

128. WTF? You're fucking paranoid. I've thrown no insults.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #128)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:27 PM

132. Oh you havent? just read your last few posts to me again.

How would you feel if someone accused you of listening to RW media or the NRA? 40% of the Democrats own or someone in their household owns a gun. We have the right to defend our rights just like you have the right to try changing the gun safety regulations. Is it too much to ask for an adult conversation without insults and name calling?
But oh wait, we are "delicate flowers" acording to you, why am I wasting my time?
Have a nice life.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #120)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:05 AM

147. Gun owners hAVE budged, LOTS of inches.

I suggest you look up how the laws have changed since 1934, before you continue arguing on such a baseless assumption.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #95)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:34 PM

102. It depends. Are those "Rightful" gun owners determined to hold onto their assault weapons?

If the answer is yes, then my answer is yes, they are fascists.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #102)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:40 PM

106. Where is the OP refering only to assault weapons?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:35 PM

103. I agree. Semi automatic weapons have no place in a civilized society.

If you want a country where there's no laws and you can shoot first and ask questions later, I'm sure Somalia or Uganda would love to have you.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:49 PM

113. You do not get to define "progressive" for anyone but yourself.

 

I have largely avoided these threads.

This is a very complicated and tricky issue. Were it not, we would have solved it long ago. Good men and women from everywhere in the political spectrum have radically different opinions, and they are all able (and more than willing) to defend their beliefs. Right now folks on both sides are screaming hate at each other. Which was fine with me, knock yourself out -- only now you feel like flinging poop at the rest of us. You want everyone to stop talking and pick a side. We are either with you or we are against you!

That's nonsense. I AM NOT WITH YOU.

Not because of my position on Gun Control, it doesn't matter what that is, but because overly aggressive statements like this original post are both counterproductive and diametrically opposed to everything I stand for. As a progressive, I believe in the free exchange of ideas, I welcome all opinions and information, and I carefully consider them all before arriving at any conclusions. I do not allow anyone else to demand my obedience to their beliefs or label me when I disagree. When new ideas and information become avaialable, I welcome this as well, and weight my own established positions against this new knowlege. That's what I believe progressives do. Your mileage may vary.

I listen. I think. I discuss. I try my best to use REASON to win people to my side, and in so doing I often discover that I wasn't as smart or informed as I originally imagined. But it begins, not with ultimatums and name calling, but reasonable discourse between people. And that's what this issue desperately needs.

We are never going to be able to even START to solve it so long as the people on both sides continue villifying at each other.



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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #113)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:53 PM

116. This ^^^ is one of...

...the most progressive posts in this thread. +1

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #113)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:55 PM

118. +1

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:52 PM

114. What the fuck does abortion have to do with RBKA?

Other than those who say they believe in the 'right to life' are likely to kill those they think need killing with whatever is handy...

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:06 PM

124. +1,000 + a gazillion.

Truer words never written...

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:29 PM

134. I'm so tired of people trying to define what a progressive is and isn't.

Progressives come in all shapes and colors. Get real.

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #134)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:31 PM

135. lol. of course you are.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:49 PM

137. Finally we learn who defines "progressive"

We can all rest easy now. The mystery is solved.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:52 PM

139. Maybe if you would grow up people would pay attention to your posts

 

But they are really just a joke

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #139)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:34 PM

142. Big man - willing to back that up?

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #142)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:24 AM

144. What are you going to do...beat me up after school

 

Big man?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:28 PM

141. I don't see why it's an either/or.

Plenty of progressives and liberals have served in the military defending the country. No difference defending yourself and loved ones.
Even 99.99% of conservative gun-owners will never shoot anyone. I think this is a silly purity test that only serves to divide and weaken the party. This OP is serving the interests of the GOP.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #141)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:36 PM

143. +1

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #141)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:26 AM

145. Better watch out...the op will ask you if you are willing to back that up

 

Then threaten to beat you up after class

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:34 AM

146. Whoa..."value life" really? When did you go vegan, Tav?

If you're going to drag that wagon out, be prepared for me to call you on it.

Or are we back on a "some life is more valuable than others based on my opinion" bender.

Let me know.

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