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Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:36 AM

 

Rural gun ownership.

I live out in the country, and like fifty six percent of rural households, I own at least one gun. That percentage figure is twenty five points higher than overall gun ownership in this nation. Why? Why do so many rural folks own guns.

In most cases, for good, practical reasons. Out in the country, you are miles from anywhere and anything, stores, fire stations, police help. Thus, living in the country forces you to plan ahead. Have a larger store of food on hand, since you can't run out to the corner store and get more. Have an extra fire extinguisher or two around in case something catches, after all, the fire station can be anywhere from five to fifty miles away. Have a gun in the house, because like fire stations, the local sheriff could be minutes or an hour away.

Furthermore, out in the country, you're dealing with situations that you normally don't deal with in the city. I had a neighbor who shot a dog on his front doorstep about four months ago. The dog was acting vicious, wouldn't let him, his wife and grandchild into their own front door. After trying other methods of getting rid of the dog, he was forced to shoot it.

Another common incident is having a wild dog, or even a domesticated one, running livestock. When you've got a thousand dollars involved in a cow and her calf, the last thing you want to see is a dog running them to death. If the dog belongs to somebody, you talk to that person. If the dog is wild, or the dog owner refuses to take action to control the dog, you shoot it.

There are other critters out here as well that have to be dealt with, depending on where you live. Furthermore, some of them could be rabid. I had to put down a rabid raccoon that had installed itself outside my front door. I wasn't going to let my dogs have to deal with it and possibly get bit. I wasn't going to wait for the raccoon to wander off either, spreading rabies throughout the countryside. So I shot it.

There are other acts of mercy that go on out here, mostly with livestock that is diseased and crippled. Horses, cows, goats, and more have to be put out their misery, and the easiest, most efficient and quick way of doing so is with a gun.

Not to mention basic hunting. Many, if not most rural folks put some, if not all, of their meat on the table courtesy of a rifle. One of the many reasons that it is generally considered easier to be poor in the country than the city is because of the hunting. Deer season in the country is a busy one, and more than one larder is filled in the fall.

The fact of the matter is the gun is a necessary tool of life in the country, and you are never going to get support eliminating all guns from the rural populace. You can get support for eliminating certain guns, assault weapons and such, and even support for other measures such as getting rid of high capacity clips. But take away the family deer rifle, or the twelve gauge shotgun in the closet, like many people on DU seem bent on doing? It's not going to happen.

So for those of you who think that gun ownership is something frivolous and unnecessary, go live out in the country for awhile. You'll find that owning a gun is just as necessary as owning a hammer. You may not use it often, but you want it there when you need it because you are far from any place where you can conveniently pick up one, and there is nobody who can be right there to help you in your time of need.

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Reply Rural gun ownership. (Original post)
MadHound Dec 2012 OP
cliffordu Dec 2012 #1
Hoyt Dec 2012 #2
Aerows Dec 2012 #130
riqster Dec 2012 #3
Are_grits_groceries Dec 2012 #4
LP2K12 Dec 2012 #5
Earth_First Dec 2012 #6
byeya Dec 2012 #41
Warpy Dec 2012 #85
mostlyalurker Dec 2012 #7
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #14
Jenoch Dec 2012 #46
DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #107
Jenoch Dec 2012 #114
DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #122
aikoaiko Dec 2012 #8
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #16
aikoaiko Dec 2012 #22
MedicalAdmin Dec 2012 #33
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #97
aikoaiko Dec 2012 #104
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #118
Recursion Dec 2012 #56
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #98
Recursion Dec 2012 #100
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #101
Recursion Dec 2012 #103
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #193
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #106
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #176
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #177
spin Dec 2012 #131
lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #115
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #137
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #150
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #125
Paladin Dec 2012 #144
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #165
Paladin Dec 2012 #181
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #195
DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #188
Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #29
LWolf Dec 2012 #163
aikoaiko Dec 2012 #169
riverbendviewgal Dec 2012 #9
bobclark86 Dec 2012 #28
oneshooter Dec 2012 #166
HillWilliam Dec 2012 #10
DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #11
Jenoch Dec 2012 #59
Recursion Dec 2012 #93
DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #95
former-republican Dec 2012 #120
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #136
DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #172
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #174
DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #186
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #190
DrewFlorida Dec 2012 #191
Jenoch Dec 2012 #183
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grattsl Dec 2012 #12
AlecBGreen Dec 2012 #18
bobclark86 Dec 2012 #34
HillWilliam Dec 2012 #36
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #71
progressoid Dec 2012 #111
Aerows Dec 2012 #140
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otohara Dec 2012 #45
Aerows Dec 2012 #134
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rvt1000rr Dec 2012 #61
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DaveJ Dec 2012 #44
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jberryhill Dec 2012 #70
DaveJ Dec 2012 #94
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #155
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #171
Blue_In_AK Dec 2012 #47
mettamega Dec 2012 #50
TheMoreYouKnow Dec 2012 #55
Jackpine Radical Dec 2012 #87
on point Dec 2012 #54
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #81
Jackpine Radical Dec 2012 #89
Recursion Dec 2012 #96
silhouete2 Dec 2012 #66
Jenoch Dec 2012 #86
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #69
ROFF Dec 2012 #74
FedUpWithIt All Dec 2012 #77
cali Dec 2012 #82
davsand Dec 2012 #102
Go Vols Dec 2012 #91
intersectionality Dec 2012 #99
mrsadm Dec 2012 #108
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #109
Jenoch Dec 2012 #119
Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #110
graham4anything Dec 2012 #113
ProfessorGAC Dec 2012 #121
upaloopa Dec 2012 #127
Aerows Dec 2012 #129
Aerows Dec 2012 #128
JoeyT Dec 2012 #133
Taverner Dec 2012 #151
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #156
bettyellen Dec 2012 #189
riqster Dec 2012 #182
tularetom Dec 2012 #157
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slackmaster Dec 2012 #167
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cntrfthrs Dec 2012 #175
Upton Dec 2012 #179
Resonance_Chamber Dec 2012 #180
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #192
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baldguy Dec 2012 #197

Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:51 AM

1. +1

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:58 AM

2. I get that. Question I always wonder is if one carries a gun when they do go to the city?


Or do they have multiple assault weapons?

I find where I live -- in the South -- the rural folks carry guns when they go to city more because they are afraid of (or pehaps just hate) minorities. I don't think I am wrong in that assessment.

I also suspect those who have so-called "assault" weapons, expecially multiple units.

I don't think most foks want to take away the family deer rifle. Unfortunately, gun cultists are notorious for pushing the envelop on gun laws. If they were truly responsible, and gave a dang about society, we wouldn't be having this dicussion.

In short, I don't think folks like you are the problem or deserve criticism from even the most ardent "gun grabber."

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:11 PM

130. I live in the South

And I feel no particular fervor to tote along a .22 rifle or a 12 gauge at any point in time. I don't particularly need a handgun, so I don't have one. What I do have is plenty if it comes to that.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:06 AM

3. Well-written! I would add this:

A semi-automatic rifle (like my old .22) is very useful for varmint control. Likewise my 410 shotgun: lots less recoil, and when one is arthritic, that makes a huge difference.

I mention this because there are those who see all non-single-shot long guns as equivalent. They are most certainly not.

Again, thanks for a clearly articulated post that points out the rural reality.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:10 AM

4. All my relatives own rifles and/or shotguns.

Hand guns? Not so much.
They don't take them out unless they are going to use them. Most of them have them for hunting, but some of them live well off the beaten path.

When you live a long way from help getting to you, you better be prepared for whatever else roams around. There are all kinds of varmints on the loose.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:11 AM

5. +1

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:11 AM

6. Awaits the "the poor dogs" crowd...

Inevitable.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:02 PM

41. Not from me: I had to get rabies shots when a pack of 5 attacked my dog and me out on a mountain

 

10 years ago. Fortunately, the shots didn't hurt and my dog was a 130 pound bullmastiff. Still there was one dog that the animal control officer and I never found, hence the shots.
On patrol, we always assumed everyone in our remote area was armed.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:03 PM

85. Not here. I was a bike commuter for a long time

and I got heartily sick of Muffy-wouldn't-hurt-a-fly trying to sink its teeth into my leg.

Controlled dogs are our best friends. Uncontrolled dogs are pests.

The OP has described many of the reasons my friends outside the city have guns. One other important one in this part of the country is that it's still wild country out here, and if you find bears going through your garbage, you want to discourage them because they make very poor neighbors. So you fire a warning shot. Since one bear in a million will charge, you need a second shot to drop it, just in case. Firecrackers are a bad idea.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:25 AM

7. I think most gun control advocates are not thinking of the hunting rifles or such that rural

folks use as a tool. We are more concerned with the arsenals that some people have with no practical need. And automatics, high capacity clips and hoarding are just concerning. If your guns are registered, kept secure, you are licensed, passed a background check with a mental health section, insured for the potential damage your gun may do, and you are willing to accept responsibility (criminal or otherwise for what your guns do) then that seems like acceptable and responsible gun ownership.

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Response to mostlyalurker (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:56 AM

14. Exactly!!!

My dad lived his last two decades in the country and kept a loaded .22/12-gauge shotgun by the back door for taking out pests. No problem there.

My brother-in-law keeps a loaded assault weapon next to his bedroom door in the middle of a large city. I have a lot of problems with that.

Keep your shotguns. Keep your hunting rifles.

The assault weapons have got to go.

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Response to mostlyalurker (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:15 PM

46. The problem with your reasoning is

there is only one significant difference between the millions of semi-auto 'deer rifles' and assault weapons and that is the high capacity magazine ( and there are hunting rifles that accept high capacity magazines).

Automatic weapons have not been part of a crime problem since the days of Prohibition/Bonnie & Clyde.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #46)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:01 PM

107. Assault weapons have become the weapon of choice for terrorists, mass murderers,

and many others in crime. It is now common for the average police officer to find himself out gunned by criminals. The proliferation of assault weapons goes far beyond innocent people in rural areas using them for self defense or hunting. The problems associated with assault weapons is not limited to high capacity magazines. It is also a problem of the ease with which people can aquire them at gun shows without background checks due to the personal weapon sale loophole, and the ammunition available for them such as high velocity rounds, hollow points and soft points etc etc. And as we have seen a number of times in recent years people with a history of violence and mental instability have no trouble getting their hands on assault weapons. The idea that the retard who killed 26 people in Newtown was allowed to even use a gun for target shooting is outrageous, people with those histories should not be allowed in the same house as a gun let alone be allowed to use one.

The issue is not with recreational use, or legitimate self defense, or hunting, all of those things are legitimate reason to own a gun and those liberties should not be stopped.

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #107)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:35 PM

114. You are pretty much mistaken

when you say the cops are out gunned. I have two brothers who are cops in jurisdictions 200 miles apart. They both have actual automatic (not semi auto) weapons in their squads. That is more the norm than being outgunned. The last time fully auto weapons were used in crime in the U.S. was the 1997 North Hollywood bank shootout where the cops were outgunned. They had to go to a nearby gun store to get semi auto rifles. The only peoplw killed were the perps.

Rifles of all types are onlt used in 3 to 4% of all gun crime in the U.S. Where have we had terrorist attacks in the U.S. that used guns of any kind, let alone assault weapons? I thought their weapon of choice was a box cutter and ultimately airliners?

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #114)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:46 PM

122. Here is a link to some statistics on mass shootings, I'll get more stats for you

since you don't seem to want to do any research yourself, you obviously have your mind made up without having any facts from the real world.



http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:29 AM

8. AR15s and AR10s have been embraced as utility rifles by many rural folks

At least in south Georgia. During the 2000s, they started to replace 30-30 lever actions as the "go to" carbine or rifle for pest control (especially feral hogs who eat up all the peanuts). The bolt action 22-250 or 30-06 are still kings of the bolt action deer rifle, but I see more ARs is the deer kill photos online and in stores all the time.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:57 AM

16. Totally unnecessary firepower to take out deer. Jeebus!

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:08 PM

22. A .308 out of an AR10 is no different than a .308 out of a Rem 700 bolt action.

And when you're trying to shoot 10 hogs quickly in your fields a 20 round mag is not unreasonable.

A dear hunter can put a 5 round mag in an AR and its capacity is no different than that same Remmy 700.

I'm not sure what you consider to unnecessary.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:50 PM

33. I would fully support anyone in a rural area to have that type of gun.

Provided that, and all guns transfers, are registered.

A reasonable rural exception is ... reasonable.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:38 PM

97. Sorry. I'm not buying this argument at all.

If you take out only five of the ten hogs in one session, you get the other five another day.

Shooting a deer is done with a single bullet. If you need a huge magazine to kill a deer, you are the worst hunter on the planet.

ALL ASSAULT WEAPONS MUST GO. NO EXCEPTIONS.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #97)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:55 PM

104. You don't have to buy anything. I'm explaining to you how some people us these firearms.


You can deny it if you wish, but they can be useful rifles to rural folks.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #97)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:41 PM

118. The problem with blanket legislation...

... is that it covers everyone as the same psycho killer as worst dregs of society. There's a vague line between murderers and sportsman when it comes to gun control, and woe be the politician that crosses that line. If it's the Democrats who do it through un-nuanced bans, we can expect a permanent Republican White House in the near future, and that's not good for anyone.

I lean toward common sense regulation to track such weapons and prevent irresponsible ownership. Write local laws to keep them out of major cities if needed, but don't punish outdoorsmen or ranchers who use them as a tool of the trade. There's no legitimate reason to have an AR-15 in the rifle rack of a pickup truck in NYC, but in Montana it takes on a different meaning.

Though I usually don't like analogies because they can become obtuse, we don't all have a Breathalyzer in our steering wheels installed at the factory just because a minority of drivers get drunk and kill someone. I'm sure you'd not want that factored into the price of your car, and I'd bet you'd resent having to blow on your car to go to the store. MADD could logically argue that it saves innocent lives and is a small price to pay for our security from drunk drivers.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:31 PM

56. With a standard upper receiver, they're not powerful enough for deer for the most part

Though you can chamber them in .308, which is more what you should use for a deer, but that pretty much removes the main advantage of the AR, which is the low kick.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:40 PM

98. I guess that is why you need to big magazines.

Shoot the threatening deer 10 or 20 times.

Be sure to check for collateral damage.

Chew your venison carefully.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #98)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:41 PM

100. No, it's why people don't hunt large game with them

They're usually used for coyotes and smaller.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #100)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:45 PM

101. Can coyotes be hunted with something other than an assault weapon?

Jesus. I cannot believe that I am on DU arguing with someone that assault weapons are necessary for hunting.

Insane.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #101)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:53 PM

103. Sure, marginally less safely

The "military-ish" feature of the ban-compliant AR-15 is a pistol grip, which is safer to use than a traditional hunting rifle grip (that's why military's use them; they reduce accidental discharges from dropped weapons and nudge a shooter towards better firing positions from the shoulder).

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Response to Recursion (Reply #103)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:18 PM

193. A 410 shotgun will kill a coyote from as far away as 50 feet.

Plus, the sweep pattern is such that the animal can't escape the shot. I know that because as a person growing up poor in the country, I shot such a gun lots of times. I was single shot and always hit the mark.

I agree with those that state that rabid animals must be killed, they are walking dead with rabies anyway and will infest other animals and potentially people before dying from the infection themselves. I don't favor killing any other wild animal unless it is an obvious threat to body or property.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #101)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:57 PM

106. Sure they can,

but semi-auto carbines are a good option. What difference does it make what the gun looks like?

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #106)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:55 AM

176. Subtlety is lost in these threads. Must we point out the obvious at every step?

I don't give a flying fuck what anyone uses to hunt. I just don't care.

However, to justify the personal possession of military assault weapons because they make fun hunting rifles is pure bullshit.

We are trying to find a solution to the slaughter of humans by these goddamned guns, and this kind of silliness is not helping.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #176)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:33 AM

177. And, yet, here you are insisting the silliness is important.

What the gun looks like does not matter. Why do you insist that it does?

There is nothing special about "military assault weapons" (sic) that requires them to have special restrictions. A semi-auto carbine is just a semi-auto carbine. Wood features or black plastic is not an important consideration regardless of how much you want it to be.


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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #98)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:12 PM

131. Why is it that so many people believe hunters use 20 round magazines ...

in their semi-auto rifles to hunt game like deer? Most states have limits on the size of the magazine your firearm holds when hunting. Florida's limit is 5 rounds while hunting deer.

I don't believe that there is any limit on the size of the magazine you can use in Florida while hunting feral hog. Such animals are considered pests as they are not native to Florida and do considerable damage to the environment. They also reproduce at an alarming rate.



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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:35 PM

115. My understanding is that .223 is illegal for deer hunting because it's not powerful enough.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #115)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:20 PM

137. Depends on the deer.

For the larger black-tail deer, you are correct. However, some eastern states will let you hunt the smaller white-tail deer with a .223.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #115)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:50 PM

150. Some states allow it, I think

But, as you said, few do because it's basically a .22, and doesn't have enough firepower. I don't hunt, and loathe it, but I have some hunters in my family. One of my cousins said he thinks using a .223 to hunt large animals as cruel (he missed the irony).

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:57 PM

125. It's not unnecessary firepower for a brown bear, and they're in all 50 states.

...And if one is charging because it views you as a threat to her cubs, you'd sell your soul for an "assault rifle" on the spot.

I guess it's possible you're a highly trained sniper and have the calm nerves and expertise to fire a .22 magnum bolt action rifle and place that desperately important first round in the angered animal's eye, but just in case you're not...

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #125)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:39 PM

144. Wipe Your Upper Lip, You're Getting Excited.


And after that, give me confirmation that brown bear are found in the wild in Texas. "All 50 states"? I think not.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #144)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:56 PM

165. Well then...

If there aren't any brown bears in Texas, I guess you're perfectly safe there in the wild. A slingshot outta do, but what about the elk?

I must have been channelling Colbert.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #165)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 09:01 AM

181. I Bet Colbert Knows There Aren't Any Brown Bear In Texas.


Now, about those Texas elk....

Aw, fuck it. There's no point in prolonging this. Go check on the cape buffalo population in Hawaii---now that's where a .223 assault rifle with a big-ass magazine would REALLY come in handy.....

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Response to Paladin (Reply #181)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:03 AM

195. Sorry, I was just having fun there in the 2nd post.

Still, I maintain the original point that a .223 round has more uses than killing people. I watched a Discovery Channel show just the night before about Alaska, and one of the weapons they took into the wilderness with them was an Ar15, and they weren't afraid of running into people out there. They also carried a bolt action 30.06 rifle with a scope for serious hunting, but they seemed concerned about being taken off guard by nature.

I shouldn't have frustrated you.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #125)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:33 PM

188. Brown Bears are not in all 50 states.

Black bears yes, not Brown bears, let's not confuse this discussion with exageration and false fact.
Keep it real!

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:33 PM

29. Fellow Georgian agreeing

Particularly for the hog hunts.

But I think that someone who has never encountered wild hogs won't know what we are talking about.

They are dangerous and we hunt them to keep the population down. They will utterly destroy crops, for one thing. They are ominivores, and they will break into animal pens and eat small animals too. If you are unlikely enough to meet one of the big ones in the brush you could be in big trouble - nothing can rip up a dog like a wild hog.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:23 PM

163. Not here.

I'm a long way from Georgia, but I live rurally, and my neighbors and my students discuss their hunting trips, their hunter safety courses, and their guns, as a matter of course.

If I dare to ride my horse out or to hike out the gate in the fall, I'll run across hunters within half a mile from my place. None of them are using semi-automatics.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #163)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:19 PM

169. If you live in the north or west I would imagine the calibers are bigger

Than AR15s or AR10s use. Like I said in my other post I think their 5.56 and .308 ammo is replacing the 30-30 rifles around here but they are for good smaller southern deer, hogs, and coyotes.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:31 AM

9. you are a sensible gun owner

I am presuming you do not use an automatic weapon. Those belong to the military and swat squads only in my opinion.

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Response to riverbendviewgal (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:27 PM

28. And they do...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

Since 1934, automatic weapons (as in hold down the trigger and it keeps firing) have been regulated via a federal tax stamp, a drawn-out permitting process including local sign-off by law enforcement and very high price. No new full-auto guns have been allowed to be registered since 1986, os if it's full-auto, it's either illegal or old. Some states like New York don't allow full-auto even WITH the federal paperwork. You just can't have them legally. As far as cost goes, a semi-auto AR-15 costs between $700 and $2,000 and can be bought, in some states, at Walmart. A full-auto AR-15 costs $25,000 and must go through a special Class III dealer with all the federal paperwork and $200 for the tax stamp (which was $200 in 1934... or about $3,500 after inflation).

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Response to riverbendviewgal (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 06:59 PM

166. And why would SWAT teams need full auto for?

If a semi-auto is capable of spewing large amounts of ammo in a little time, why would they need anything more?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:33 AM

10. Thank you. This is the one-and-only reason I have guns in the house

I live miles from police/sheriff help and there is exactly one fish-and-wildlife officer to handle two good-sized counties. I have six rescued herding dogs that are well-socialized, gentle, and essentially defenseless against the wild creatures who might think to do them harm if one was so determined. I gave my furgirls almost three acres of playground around the house surrounded by a pretty stout electric fence. The fence is designed to keep wild critters out much more than to keep them in (herding dogs, especially well-bonded ones aren't terribly likely to wander), but a fence, no matter how constructed can only do so much.

I've also had to dispatch a raccoon, and there are wild hogs and I've spotted a cougar around. Those can absolutely tear a dog up. I've mentioned this before: two of these dogs are my partner's assistants. Aide dogs don't grow on trees. They take years to train; you only get a couple or three good years' service; then when they want or need to retire, it's only fair to make their retirement as safe and comfortable as possible. WE OWE THEM that.

Our sheriff's department is understaffed. The sheriff encourages the populace here to be educated, to know the law, to take safety courses, and to have a reasonable firearm handy. Most of the folks in our county are like us: older, vulnerable, but responsible and cooperative with our sheriff. We think the world of him (and he's a good Democrat!!). We're not liable to go shooting up the place. It's the yayhoos who come in from out of state to hunt on the gamelands we always have problems with: trespassing, shooting at houses and cows, drunk and loudmouthing... lovely. Believe, all we have to do is pick up the phone, dial 911 and say "in progress". We get help.

For critters, though, we're on our own. So long as they leave us and our homes/kids/furkids alone, we tend to leave them alone.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:45 AM

11. I concurr with you on gun ownership for practical purposes.

I believe the real question regarding guns is not about taking away guns which serve pratical purposes, rather it is about restricting and banning guns and accessories (30 round magazines, high velocity rounds etc) which serve no purpose other than killing people quickly and in large numbers. I know some would like to abolish all guns, but they are few in number, the issue at hand is to reduce the senseless proliferation of people killers also known as assault weapons. I'm sure you didn't need an AR15 to put that dog down, I am equally sure you wouldn't want to shoot a deer you intended for sustenance with a .223 high velocity round which fragments after entering the victim, I can say with great certainty a 100 round drum magazine would not be of much help in taking a prized buck. The final question is restricting guns to people who have a history of violence or mental instability, it seems clear to me that should not even be an issue for people to disagree, yet some still disagree.

Sensible gun controls and restrictions do not mean taking away guns for practical purposes, it means lessening the opportunities for murderers.

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:34 PM

59. 'High velocity rounds'?

Can you name a 'low velocity round' in common use? How fast is considered 'high velocity'?

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #59)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:22 PM

93. You can buy subsonic ammo

It tends to hink up your mechanisms, though

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #59)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:26 PM

95. The .223 was designed specifically to penetrate a steel military helmet,

it contains much more powder than a standard .22 longshot and has a much higher velocity than a standard .22 longshot.

A standard .22 round leaves the barrel at 800-900 fps.
A high velocity .223 leaves the barrel at 1250-1450 fps.

The Bushmaster was designed to use .223 high velocity round, which is also designed to split and fragment after entering the victim.

You might want to do just a bit of research, it doesn't take long to educate yourself.

This article explains the difference quite clearly, or you could do a simple google search for high velocity ammunition.

http://www.steelchickens.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60:22-rimfire-ammo&catid=36:ammunition&Itemid=60

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #95)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:45 PM

120. You might want to check that research you did .

 

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #95)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:18 PM

136. Implying that people are stupid is no way to win an argument.

I'm not even questioning your point, but that one sentence turned your reply into an arrogant attempt to belittle a fellow poster, and casts a shadow over anything else you're trying to say.

I assume you weren't the captain of your high school debate team, but a respectful exchange with someone with whom you disagree will always win more people to your point of view. I'm not saying you lack intelligence or failed in your research, I'm just saying you're rude and resorted to bullying to gain ground in an argument.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #136)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:33 PM

172. As you insult me subtlety at length, your argument is without merit.

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #172)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:19 AM

174. Maybe I'm one of the uneducated ones...

After all, I quit reading your reply at the period at the end of the sentence where you told the poster to educate himself to your grand level. A lot of people are so stupid as to think nothing of "merit" follows a statement like that. Certainly, that makes me ignorant to your original point.

Just sayin'

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #174)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:04 PM

186. Now you're putting words in my mouth!

I never told him to educate himself to my grand level, that's utter nonsense.
Had you read the previous posts, you'd have understood the context that my call for him to educate himself was meant. It was hardly a rude comment, however it was intended to call on him to do his own research rather than expecting me to do it for him. At the end of all this, it is you who turns out to be the only person who behaved rudely, LMAO!

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #186)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 08:32 PM

190. Well you told me!

Now I feel stupid.

Still, when I read a post that tells someone to "educate" themself, I'm going to move on to the next post. Perhaps it wouldn't sound as vain if they used the word "inform" instead of "educate" because educate sounds like the opposite of stupid.

A smart person can easily be uninformed about a subject, but an educated person isn't stupid. You can continue to believe you offered the epitome of an educated and diplomatic reply to the poster, and I'll continue to inform you that you did not.

On edit:
I disagreed with that poster's information as well.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #190)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:04 PM

191. Your agreement with that poster has no bearing on your rudeness to me!

Now you have assigned a negative connotation to the word educate, avoided responsibility for knowing the context of the conversation you posted about. For someone who is educated, intelligent and informed, you surely didn't show any of those traits in your exchanges here. Next time you might want to educate yourself on the subject you are talking about (ie. read previous posts to gain context of conversation), before injecting rude comments and judgements into the conversation.

A simple apology would be much easier than trying to baffle me with bull shit.

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #95)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:19 PM

183. My question was rhetorical.

I was responding in that fashion because my point was that all firearm cartridges can be considered lethal. It also annoys me when people talk about how powerful a round is coming out of an 'assault weapon' when considered next to many rifle cartridges it is considerably less powerful. You were preaching to the choir (and apparently my point was too subtle for you to get it. By the way, I did say 'in common use').

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #183)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:11 PM

187. A .22 is "in common use", however there is a huge difference

between a common .22 and a high velocity .223, the killing power is very different, in fact it was specifically design for NATO to have more killing power. Your point about all firearm cartridges being considered lethal is neither here nor there, the fact is, some are much more lethal than others, if you want to ignore that point as if it has no bearing on the gun control issue that's your opinion, but I disagree with you, conversely, I think it is extremely important.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:50 AM

12. We get it. We agree, but hunting does not take 30 rounds.

Who exactly is trying to take away a legit hunting rifle or shotgun??? NOBODY that is reasonable, and certainly NO POLITICIAN has called for a ban on hunting rifles.

I am tired of straw men, (and slippery slope arguments) as a way to maintain a status quo of mass murder.

We can and should prohibit weapons and ammunition that have no other purpose than killing as many as possible as fast as possible.
We (those in favor of gun control) are more than willing to be reasonable, I just wish the other side would also be reasonable. Nothing you described would be effected in any way by eliminating semi autos, or high capacity clips.

If you need 30 rounds to hunt, give up. Find something else to do. I would suggest stamp collecting, because if you need 30 f#@cking rounds to get meat- YOU SUCK!!! And you have no business with a death stick in your hands.

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Response to grattsl (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:00 PM

18. i agree for the most part

deer hunting does not require a 30-round clip. Hog hunting OTOH is a different story. They run in packs and they can be vicious. I would not take a 4-round rifle if I was going after hogs. Their range is expanding quickly and are causing quite a bit of damage in the deep South.





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Response to AlecBGreen (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:51 PM

34. It's worse...

http://128.192.20.53/nfsms/

The map you show is almost 10 years old — all of Texas is now covered, as is most of the south. Heck, even NY has reports now.

The NYSDEC — one of the most liberal agencies of its type in the country — has issued its instructions on the subject. If you have a small-game license, you are authorized to kill on sight. No season, no bag limit, any time of day. You don't even have to pick them up if you don't want to do so.

They are a horrible scourge and a threat to the local ecosystem on par with building a housing development. Nothing remains when they are done — most of the trees even die. They are also dangerous to farm animals (disease and attacks), and have been known to attack humans.

It's not hunting. It's extermination. Baits, large pen traps for multiple swine and a semi-auto AK clone with a 40-round magazine is an acceptable method of extermination. As a liberal environmentalist, I say go for it.

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Response to AlecBGreen (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:56 PM

36. I see my county in NC as one in green and yesindeedy

they are a dangerous pest around here. Since we've been keeping domestic pigs they've gotten closer. I don't carry because I'm just not that afraid of another human killing me. If they do, they do, there won't be that much I can do about it. I keep my fence up, repaired, and well-charged. A wild hog or a cougar I'm damned scared of. I do carry when I'm outside feeding the pigs. I figure the noise will be enough. If not, a huge mag isn't going to do much better for me.

That's me. I'm not going to gainsay what's going to work for you. Every situation is different.

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Response to HillWilliam (Reply #36)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:45 PM

71. I carry a gun in my pack while trail running

Here in NC, because of feral pigs. I am more afraid of them then any other animal out there, even bears, because they are aggressive and large and deadly.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #71)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:21 PM

111. Sounds like you're not packing enough heat.

From what I've read here, you should get an AK to defend yourself from them.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #111)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:22 PM

140. Shotgun is plenty

and it scares the hell out of the rest of them. If you need an AR-15, you are in deep shit trouble you won't be digging yourself out of.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #71)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:04 PM

126. You're right, they are aggressive and think absolutely nothing of charging a human

I take my biggest dog with me. She might be 98# but she's no fighter, nor do I expect her to do anything but save herself. She's got sense enough to tearass for the house and that's exactly what I want and expect her to do. She's there to alert me and alert me she will. I take just enough heat with me to get me to safety. At that point, screw the domestic pigs. Any shot from me would instantly bring my neighbor with a shotgun. He'd be instantly followed by his wife. Both are excellent shots. A cougar will most likely run; a wild hog won't last long.

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Response to HillWilliam (Reply #126)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:43 PM

146. A friend's friend was treed by one trying to kill him

Some mountain bikers found him, and the pig went after THEM. They were able to get away, and called 01 when their cells got reception. Wildlife officials had to come and kill it. It was a huge boar.


This is what they look like, for the uninitiated (they are really big):





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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #146)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:48 PM

149. Nothing to screw with

Nasty tusks that will gore you in a heartbeat, and they have the body weight and build to ploy you down.

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Response to AlecBGreen (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:20 PM

139. They certainly are here

We had one being a menace after Hurricane Katrina, and it took a 12 gauge to deal with it. Damn things are huge.

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Response to AlecBGreen (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:37 PM

142. You actually need more than a 12-gauge?

Hunt deer, then, because a shotgun pretty much stops the charge of everything. And yes, I've been there.

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Response to grattsl (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:33 PM

58. Well, with feral pigs it can

That's also the only use-case I've ever known for a civilian having a bayonet, which a lot of the boar hunters I know do have.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:47 PM

73. Some here use pikes

Feral pigs are considered vermin and can be hunted by anyone without a license (except in a handful of counties), but any weapon that is not illegal in NC. You just aren't allowed to bait them.

It's why I carry a pistol in my Nathan when trailrunning.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #73)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:26 PM

141. They are fucking scary

I saw first hand how they are after Hurricane Katrina. You don't fuck with that, you have to kill it before it kills you.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #141)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:38 PM

143. Exactly, and they are all over certaon areas

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #143)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:40 PM

145. We had one menace the neighborhood

after Katrina. It took a major blast to bring it down before it could hurt someone, and it was dead determined to charge everything. Fooling around with them is about as smart as tweaking an alligator. Except feral pigs don't need provocation - they just charge for the hell of it.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #145)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:47 PM

148. Exactly -- VERY aggressive

The majority of bears won't charge unless they feel threatened (I never get close enough to test that theory!), but feral pigs will just come after a dog or human. They have NO fear.

I know a pistol won't sop one, but I hope it will deter one just long enough. I'm not going to sling a shotgun across my back to go running.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:46 PM

147. You pretty much need every tool in the book

for those things. I'd prefer to be around 5 alligators than one feral pig that is off his rocker. Damn things are dangerous and unpredictable.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #147)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:52 PM

152. I would rather run into a bear

Not that i WANT to run into either, but the odds are decent you'll survive an encounter with a bear. Not with the piggy!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #152)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:11 PM

160. Amen

I'm with you - I'd rather a bear. Or like I said, a gaggle of alligators. Feral pigs are too strong, too aggressive and too damn mean to treat lightly. How in the hell humanity tamed pigs is beyond me considering how vicious their wild ancestors can be.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #160)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:13 PM

161. I've wondered that, too

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Response to grattsl (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:25 PM

164. I think this is where the confusion sets in....

"Nothing you described would be effected in any way by eliminating semi autos, or high capacity clips."

There are semi-auto hunting rifles and shotguns.

And, for some, manufacturers have invented very large aftermarket magazines.

So, I am left wondering exactly what is the difference between say a .223 AR-15 and any variety of .308 hunting rifles (with 25 round aftermarket magazines)?

Some might say the ammuntion for a .223 is different, fragments more, etc...but there are all kinds of ammo available in every size, so that doesn't fly.

The truth is, AR's are becoming the hunting rifle of choice. For a long time, they were dismissed in the hunting community...precisely because they were mere mock ups of their military cousins. But, they have gained acceptance; and, they are becoming the 'hunting rifles'. I think its because of the wide variety of accessories available, and the use of one style reciever for multiple calibers...things are more universal.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter that large magazines can be bought for the AR rifles...the same is true of alot of other 'hunting' rifles.

So what other distinguishing characteristics are there? The AR is probably lighter, and maybe a little shorter, which would make it better for up close encounters indoors, etc. But other than that, I honestly can't identify what features of this rifle make it more dangerous than a hunting rifle (and as I stated before, the AR's are becoming the 'hunting rifles' of choice). Some might say the pistol grip...and you've got me there, its almost unique to the AR family. And, I can see how the pistol grip would be useful in indiscriminate firing at people....but its not really that fundamentally different or better than a standard rifle...if you were up to no good, it certainly wouldn't be a requirement.

I used an M-16 in the Army; and, quite frankly, I found it 'toyish'. It screamed 'lowest bidder', 'mass produced at lowest cost', and 'low quality'. It jammed like crazy.....like to the point there was a special feature called a 'forward assist' to un-jam it...and a procedure for unjamming it called 'S-P-O-R-T-S'...I remember the 'S' stood for 'Slap'! So, I've never been enamored with it. Unlike its AR cousins, the M-16s either had a full auto feature or a 3 round burst feature. This usually causes the confusion...as some people do not realize the civilian models do not have this.

Some people on this board have tried to define and establish terms...and been bombarded with nasty responses; but, I do think it is important to know what the parameters of the discussion are.

Disclosure - I am a gun owner. Its bolt action (not semi-auto)...a 0.22. I have actually used it in a manner consistent with the OP. A possum was hiding in a chicken feed bag (staying warm). When I reached in, it bit me right through my fingernail. At that point, there are two options - go through a series of painful rabies shots, or take the animal's brain to the university for a rabies inspection. Thanks to the rifle, I avoided the shots. The guy I buy hay from has a problem with wild dogs, literally ganging up on his cattle and killing them. For this, he has used his rifle...and the semi-auto rifle was useful in this endeavor. Anyway, these are real world scenarios...I'm not just holed up out here on the prarie, worried about a bear attack. Guns are still used often out here (Kansas). Parenthetically, the city I live next to is Topeka...averages 13 homocides a year. Usually at least one stabbing, and a few killed by rifles. The vast majority are killed by pistols. This trend is true throughout the rest of the nation. Military style rifles may look ridiculous to some, and have been used in some high profile tragedies...but really the pistol is the weapon of choice for killing in this nation.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:51 AM

13. Thank you.

But those necessary reasons to own guns should not preclude all of them being registered and perhaps carrying mandatory insurance on them. Kind of like our cars.

I also wonder if the rural guns are any more likely to be stolen than the urban ones. Every day I read the police blotter in my paper and it's shocking to me how often a car or home break-in report includes guns being taken.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:57 AM

15. I can completely understand owning a gun in that situation.

But why, oh why, would you need something that can take out 27 humans in less than 3 minutes? How can anyone possibly justify that?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:59 AM

17. I agree. I have lived in the country and a gun is necessary. However,

no one needs an assault weapon or armor piercing bullets. Also, guns need to be controlled in heavily populated areas. Contrary to the movies, even in the old west, guns were not allowed in town. Historically it has always been necessary to control certain aspects of life in more populated areas in order to live peacefully. Compromise and a decrease in total freedoms have always been the cost of living in a populated society.

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Response to teewrex (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:33 PM

30. Any deer rifle can pierce armor.

Most "bullet-proof vests" are good only against pistols. Since 95-percent of all murders are committed with pistols, that's what police wear. If you want to stop a rifle round, you need the heavy ceramic plates — which will stop precisely ONE before they break and the armor is worthless.

A .30-06 will punch a hole right through a Class-III vest worn by a state trooper like it isn't even there. It's also the most widely-used deer round, and has been for about 100 years. The .30-30 from a lever-action, heck a .223 from a bolt-action woodchuck rifle will still punch it (the latter is what's in most of the "evil assault weapons").

Now, what is actually "armor-piercing" ammo is steel-cored full metal jacket ammo, which pierces the ceramic rifle plates or armored vehicle bodies on the first go. BTW, it's been illegal for years. Anybody saying the jackass in Newtown or any other shooting was using "armor-piercing" ammo is a dumbass and doesn't know what they're talking about.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:03 PM

19. Rural needs are different than urban or suburban...

Look - I don't think anyone wants to take away your deer rifle, or your 12 gauge. I think what is a reasonable demand, however, is (a) no assault weapons or accessories, and (b) a registry. If you own a potentially lethal object, such as a car, or a gun, or an airplane, it should be traceable and registered. Nobody is going to go after you unless you did something bad with it. So why be afraid of it?

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Response to GetRidOfThem (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:49 PM

32. +1000 nt

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Response to GetRidOfThem (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:26 PM

194. There are dangerous critters in urban and suburban areas, too.

Sometimes they have two legs, but dangerous, nonetheless. And they don't go away if you say "shoo."

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:03 PM

20. That's the truth

Like a ladder. Most of us don't use them constantly, but when we do need them we really need them.

On the farm we usually have to shoot a critter a couple times a year. Most often snakes, occasionally a rabid racoon or something like that. But when we do shoot, it's a danger either to humans or livestock. Wild hogs can be danger out here - they can get very large and sometimes, if they are hungry, will even break into livestock pens.

And truthfully, you do need a gun for self-defense. I have only ever picked one up once for that reason, and I don't know what the outcome would have been if I hadn't had it, but I was glad I did have it. I didn't have to shoot anyone or point it at anyone, I just slammed the door, dove for it and the prowler ran, knowing what I was doing.

I would also like to point out that AR-15s are often used for hunting around here.

A lot of the poorer people around here eat from hunting and fishing. Obviously you don't need a rifle for fishing, but you do for hunting. Times are not getting any easier for rural folk - higher energy costs generally cost them more of their incomes than for urban people, and they compensate by gardening, hunting and fishing.

And, btw, when a hog or deer or fox are eating out your garden or your chickens that you eat to live, it's a very real threat to your family's welfare.

Nor are those guns going to be locked up in a safe unless we're not home. There's always two loaded rifles in the house out when we're home - one with rat shot for poisonous snakes, and one for prowlers. The house has an alarm system, but it will be ten minutes at least before anyone gets there, and when we're sleeping or awake there's a loaded gun ready.

All the houses around where I am, including ours, have been robbed multiple times. Usually they mean no personal harm - they just want to take something to sell. And around here, the one thing they try NEVER to do is to break into a house when people are there, because they expect to get shot. The one time I had to go for the weapon, my car was in the garage, and my husband had taken the dogs and the truck, so I realized later that the guy who tried to break in just didn't realize anyone was home.

The biggest safeguard to life-threatening crime around here is the fact that just about everybody has weapons and knows how to shoot. Unfortunately, that means that anyone who does try to break in when you're there is maybe on drugs or vicious, so I would go for the gun if confronted with someone.

So I am of two minds in this whole debate. I don't need a 30 round magazine and I don't have one. but I do think that around here guns save a lot of lives, not because they're used but because everyone knows they're there to be used.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:57 PM

37. We need to limit ladders with 30 steps

 

Nobody NEEDS a ladder with that many steps. All ladders should be limited to 5 or 10 steps maximum. Exceptions can be made for professionals that

1. can demonstrate a need for a ladder with more than 10 steps
2. have undergone a thorough background check to ensure they don't have a history of of being a peeping tom, a psychological profile checking for voyeuristic tendencies, and have sufficient agility and balance to safely use a ladder.
3. have license to own a ladder
4. have the ladder registered in a national ladder database, and
5. pay an annual ladder tax of $10-$20 per step to discourage the ownership and use of ladders with lots of steps.

Remember if it saves only ONE LIFE the above is justified.

Ban killer ladders NOW!!!!

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Response to guardian (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:22 PM

49. name me one case

where mass murder has been accomplished using a ladder.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #49)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:25 PM

51. That doesn't matter

 

What is important is that I'm deciding for you what you need.

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Response to guardian (Reply #51)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:31 PM

57. it matters

one item is a tool the other is a weapon. if you can't tell the difference...

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Response to barbtries (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:38 PM

65. The problem is you do not see the weapon as a tool.

You see it as a threat, which it is not.

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Response to Indydem (Reply #65)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:41 PM

67. the problem is

you don't seem to notice that people are killing each other at a frightful clip.

if a gun is a tool, it is a tool i have never had need of.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #67)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:12 PM

88. A frightful clip?

Gun violence is at a 45 year low.

Only your paranoia is at a frightful clip.

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Response to Indydem (Reply #88)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:18 PM

135. A very precious salt for the wounds

"Gun violence is at a 45 year low...."

A very precious salt for the wounds of the families of twenty slain school children.

Maybe if it is indeed, as important as implied through its constant and consistent refrain on DU, you could send out twenty post-cards reading "gun violence is a forty-five year low" to those very families to better assist their paranoia, too...

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #135)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:20 PM

138. Keep it up.

Using the memories of slain school children to trample on the rights of others is not opportunistic at all.

Also, it is not callous or self serving, at all.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:51 PM

80. Doesn't want to notice the difference......

it's people like that working against any reasonable restrictions that make repeal of the second more likely.

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Response to guardian (Reply #51)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:15 PM

132. Bless your little heart... it certainly does matter,

Bless your little heart... it certainly does matter, else there would be heavy strictures on ladders and ladder purchases. Simply saying "it doesn't matter" doesn't matter in and of itself, even if it denies you a feel-good bit of bumper-sticker philosophy to easily digest in place of the real thing.

But, logical fallacies are delicious, and put a smile on our face. So smile!!!!

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Response to barbtries (Reply #49)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:28 PM

53. Got a can of gasoline in your garage?

Google "Happy Land arson". Apparently, we need to ban gas cans

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #53)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:35 PM

60. what does that have to do

with ladders?
and, i thought the subject was guns.

ladders and gas cans.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #49)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:28 PM

112. I just read a story about a guy that went wild in a department store with a ladder and killed 16.

Two of the survivors said they wished they had a ladder so they could fight back. One person had a step-stool but it was no match for a 40 foot aluminum ladder.

I'll see if I can find the link to the story.



edit: couldn't find the link because it was just a dream.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #112)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:49 PM

124. love your avatar.

by the way i'm so gullible you actually had me going there for a sec.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:06 PM

21. i am about as anti-gun as they come.

i don't include you. i can understand your need for a gun.
i don't add a disclaimer every time the subject comes up.
although the rate of gun ownership may be higher in rural areas, i bet there are way more guns in the cities and in the suburbs, where the reasons are much weaker for owning any firearms.
when you get pissed at those of us who are anti-gun ownership i hope you can remember this.
i am against the guns that children find and kill themselves with. i am against the guns that are used to commit mass murder and drive by shootings.
i am not against the hunting and defense guns owned by people who live in close proximity to nature.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:15 PM

24. That goes for me too. +100

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Response to barbtries (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:59 PM

39. We understand that Barb

I do anyway.

<3 <3 <3

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Response to HillWilliam (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:21 PM

48. thank you!

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Response to barbtries (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:45 PM

72. Everyone I know is against

guns that children find and kill themselves with. In Minnesota it iis against the law to have an unlocked gun if there are children living in the home.

Guns used to commit mass murder and drive by shootings are the same guns that are used for hunting and home defense. A pump shotgun was used to injure and kill the victims in Aurora. Most driveby shootings are done with handguns. Rifles of all kinds only account for between 3 and 4% of all gun crime in the U.S.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #72)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:24 PM

170. so, a Smith and Wesson M&P 15 semi-automatic rifle and a Glock 22 handgun are used for hunting?

James Eagan Holmes also used these, aside from the shotgun.

Any gun, up to and including a cannon, could be claimed for self-defense. It is a very elastic category. You never know when a pirate ship might attack.

and your 3% to 4% figure on rifles leaves out all the guns in the unspecified category on homicide reports, which is about 16% of gun deaths. 75%, in 2005, are known to be from handguns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States


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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:10 PM

23. We also live in the country. Nearest neighbor is a mile away

Yes we have guns. In the 40 years of living in very rural areas we have never needed or owned a semi automatic.
I have shot a coyote after a calf, a dog that was attacking my child's pony. I fired shots to try to scare him away but he was intent on killing the pony. That was a 22 rifle. My husband killed a deer on a rural road that ran into us. We could not let her suffer. That was a revolver.

Never needed a gun for protection and have no desire to own a semi automatic.

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:49 PM

76. If magazine capacities

were limited to 5 rounds, there would be zero difference in the rate of fire between your husband's handgun and a semi-auto handgun.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #76)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:22 PM

92. But their not limited to 5 and thats my point

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #92)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:40 PM

117. I have heard people suggesting

magazine capacity be limited to even fewer than ten rounds. Bullets come out of a revolver just as fast as a semi auto.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #117)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:13 PM

168. But after 5 shots one must reload and they go in 1 at a time

I am sure there are people that can reload a revolver quickly but I don't believe they can reload as fast as a semi auto can continue shooting.
Even if there are 10 bullet magazine it only takes a split second to pull one out and replace it unlike loading 5 bullets one at a time in a revolver.
I am sorry but you will not convince me a semi auto cannot kill more people in a much shorter time.

It is more fire power than we would ever need in our area. As I said our nearest neighbor is a mile away and we know everyone in a 10 mile radius ( all 7 families).

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:22 PM

25. City folk and country folk have different cultures

 

Having done both I much prefer space and country life. I also have owned firearms my entire life and have used the M-16 version of the AR15 in the military. Once you learn how to use them responsibly the concept is no different than driving a car or printing a newspaper or being an elected official. Always do it responsibly or it can harm others.

What bugs many of us country progressives is that too many urban dwellers believe they have the inherent right to tell the rest of the country what they should do and how they should go about doing it. The Democratic Party is far from unanimous on gun control and a belief by some that all firearms need to be controlled. These are the kinds of issues that if handled wrongly divide politics.

We country folk tend to take care of our own problems, now if only the city dwellers could sweep out their crime, and solve the over-saturation of corruption and greed.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:23 PM

26. Well said.

We live in the country, which, however, is getting closer to the city all the time. I have always refused to let a handgun in the house. We got rid of all the hunting rifles (we no longer hunt) and have only the 12 gauge on hand, which is kept unloaded. Shells are kept in a different room, on a high shelf. Happily, we have never had to shoot anything on the property - the neighbors usually take care of an obnoxious coyote, etc., first, although we all try to be reasonably tolerant even of them. We did have a bear try to break into the house several times, so we still feel that a shotgun - lots of power with short range - is a good thing to have for protection while minimizing the possibility of unintended harm to neighbors, livestock, etc.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:25 PM

27. Thank you for speaking up for those of us who live

in the country.

I have a 410. The other guns that belong to my husband are too heavy for me. I am not much of a shot, but I can protect myself and our property from the usual hazards. As you mentioned, they are numerous and non human. My husband is very good with his guns. We don't hunt often, but I see nothing wrong with that, either. When our kids were at home, a deer would feed everyone for a long time. And pheasant is delicious.

We don't have any handguns. I have never used one.

I have been hoping that some common sense would resurface here.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:38 PM

31. Practical

Add me to what you said. You hit the nail on the head, pump, lever, or bolt. I've an open mind concerning the semi-autos.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:54 PM

35. I've been rural for 20 years. From my experience, rural is red. And that explains the guns.

99% of the rural people, in my experience, have nothing to do with raising animals, or anything but just being gun lovers.

I totally agree with your post. But it's far from anything but the exception. And I've been rural in at least a half dozen counties and several states.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:58 PM

38. Really There Are Animals In The Country?

imagine that, humans move in on their territory and get shot for having the audacity to live in their natural habitat.

Over 3 million deer are killed in this country by guns and cars. The White Tale deer is already on it's way to becoming extinct - try not to shoot one of them.

Turns out there are trees in the country too - but that didn't stop McMansions from being built in fire danger areas in CO and CA. I'm waiting for an avalanche of snow to wipe out the glut homes built on mountain sides in Vail.

I live in the city and only lately have I seen raccoons - lots of them. No one is shooting the racoons in my neighborhood, nor the foxes, or the coyotes, or the rabbits.

Rabies...bullshit




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Response to otohara (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:10 PM

42. "The White Tale(sp) deer is already on it's way to becoming extinct."

Can we assume the rest of your post is of similar accuracy?

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #42)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:15 PM

45. You Tell Me

are there racoons in my neighborhood?

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Response to otohara (Reply #45)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:18 PM

134. There are raccoons all over the place in mine

And white tail deer ALL OVER THE PLACE. 5 of them walked down the street like they belonged there just the other day.

I don't know where you live, but it certainly isn't where I do, because we even occasionally see a wild hog.

And we also see foxes and coyotes. Don't get me started on snakes and alligators.

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Response to otohara (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:27 PM

52. White tail deer almost extinct?

 

Shit, I better let someone know because I've got a damn herd of soon to be rare and extinct animals eating my flowerbeds and garden every morning. I'm going to be rich!

White tail deer are just about as extinct as morons are, I don't see us running out of either of those any time soon.

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Response to otohara (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:36 PM

61. White Tail Deer are becoming extinct? Seriously?

That's a new one.
Come to Missouri, Otohara, we have more white tail running around in this state than we do squirrels (or so it would seem).The subdivision where I live has a long-established herd of three or four groups of from 7 to 12 deer each. The only real population control for deer IS seasonal hunting....

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Response to otohara (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:37 PM

63. There are 15 million white tail deer in the US

http://www.psu.edu/dept/nkbiology/naturetrail/speciespages/whitetaileddeer.htm

The extinction threat was over 100 years ago. Deer management is something most states do very well.

Their non-human predators are a different story, unfortunately.

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Response to otohara (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:38 PM

64. What an amazingly ill-informed post

I live in a 50-year old home in rural Ohio, and have personally dealt with coyotes, feral dogs, and raccoons. No rabid critters yet, but my next-door neighbor has.

If you do not have knowledge of a topic, I most respectfully suggest that you refrain from offering an opinion on said topic.

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Response to riqster (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:59 PM

83. The CO Wildlife Federation

sent our neighborhood cards with information of how to deal with the many coyotes and racoons.
No mention of guns.

I'll listen to advice of the experts in wild life vs the advice of gun owners who use any excuse to shoot anything.

I'm 60 - you're 50 - who cares?

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Response to otohara (Reply #83)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:40 AM

178. What is done in SD Blackhills is cyanide

The SD State Trapper ( a state employee) uses a device put in a road kill carcass. When any meat eating animal takes a bite it is sprayed a mouth full of cyanide. Anything from dog to bald eagles are at risk.

Prairie dogs are poisioned with bait so yes there are other ways to kill although we now live I western NE panhandle and the state trapper here is using both methods.

The coyotes are grabbing new born calves as soon as the come out of the cow. Our neighbor last 3 calves in a week and this what prompted him to have the help from the state trapper.

These are range cattle not contained in small areas.

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Response to otohara (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:42 PM

68. That's pretty funny. The deer in my town outnumber the people. nt

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Response to Flatulo (Reply #68)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:55 PM

105. HUMAN POPULATION: A Key Factor in Species Extinction

ha, ha, ha, funny!

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Response to otohara (Reply #105)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:47 PM

123. Go here.

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Response to otohara (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:49 PM

75. The ignorance of your post is just, wow!

White-tailed Deer may be endangered in your reality, but in the real world, they are a pest species that breeds like rabbits.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #75)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:03 PM

84. We're The Pests

look what we've done to this planet.

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Response to otohara (Reply #84)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:40 PM

116. Misanthropy is a perfectly legitimate viewpoint.

But don't expect the targets of that antipathy to tailor their behavior to try to mollify you.

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Response to otohara (Reply #84)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:55 PM

153. speak for yourself

i have dedicated my life to saving the endangered white "tale" deer. not to mention my work with squirrels.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #153)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:01 PM

158. squirrels

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Response to otohara (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:51 PM

79. There are so many deer, many starve to death

I loathe hunting, but deer are on a path of extinction as much as roaches are... ie they are not. I would LOVE to see where you got that nugget of info, because it is patently misinformation.

Rabies is a real concern I have shot a rabid animal before. They are a danger to other animals and humans.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #79)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:14 PM

90. Climate Change

we're killing off the animals just fine with out guns.

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Response to otohara (Reply #90)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:55 PM

154. No, there are TOO MANY deer

That's why so many starve. I don't like hunting, but there is no shurtage of deer in this country.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:59 PM

40. I live in the country,

and I dont need nor own a gun. Dont get me wrong, I think going out and doing some target shooting is pretty fun but other than that I have no use of a gun.

See, not all people are alike. You have your opinion, others have theirs.

Just because you live a certain way in a certain area doesnt mean everyone around you is exactly the same as you.


in response to the statement :
"So for those of you who think that gun ownership is something frivolous and unnecessary, go live out in the country for awhile. You'll find that owning a gun is just as necessary as owning a hammer"

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Response to iamthebandfanman (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:13 PM

43. Same here.

Lived out here for almost 30 years and never had the need for a gun. We don't keep livestock, though. Had a sick raccoon hissing at us once, but the game warden came quickly and disposed of the poor creature.

We don't even think target shooting is fun. Gun shots frighten the dogs, and I put a curse on all the yahoos around here blasting at the cardboard deer in their yards. We can't go outside during the various critter, varmint, and other woodland hunting seasons. Why does anyone need to kill a gopher or squirrel for food? We feed the deer and love them. They are beautiful and reclusive. I could never shoot one or take a bite out of it.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:14 PM

44. This might sound naive, but you can't use a tranquilizer gun?

I know it is not a perfect solutions (you might need to kill immediately and those darts could also kill a human in some cases). But, I would not mind at all if guns were totally illegal, and "dart guns" were available with a permit in cases such as yours.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #44)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:37 PM

62. Then what?

 

Assuming that we're only talking about shooting dangerous animals on rural property, then what? What do you do once we've tranquillized a coyote in your back yard chicken coop? What do you do with a tranquilized menacing dog on your front porch?

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Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #62)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:50 PM

78. The point is to criminalize guns.

What you would then do with the coyote is up to you, or whatever the the law allows (kill it, take it elsewhere, call animal control...).

The point is to reduce violent crimes caused by guns. I think we would see far fewer mass shootings and armed robberies with tranquilizer guns.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #44)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:45 PM

70. Yeah, let's give rural folks injectable tranquilizers


....maybe it will take the edge off all that meth.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #70)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:25 PM

94. Maybe not tranquilizers then...

Maybe shooting them with THC would mellow them out. But I guess it might give wild animals the munchies, which would not be so good.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #70)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:56 PM

155. lol

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #44)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:02 PM

171. Problem: Where to buy that highly restricted tranquilizer shit.

That's even more highly regulated than bullets and guns.

Let's instead let the rural people live as they always have.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:18 PM

47. Definitely the reality in Alaska, as well,

which is why the Alaska delegation is opposing new gun laws. Mark Begich may be softening just a little bit with regard to assault weapons, but Lisa Murkowski probably won't, and wacko old Don Young has dead things hanging all over his office wall. He's a cold, dead hands king of guy.

But as you say many people here, especially in the Bush, would have a hard time if there were no weapons around. Not saying that everyone out there needs one, but the subsistence people do.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:22 PM

50. yes -

Dear MadHound - yes, my sense is all thinking humans of the progressive inclination, totally get the rural need for a gun/rifle and I am sure you are not using a semiautomatic machine gun - in acts of protection or mercy - warm New Year Blessings to you - Mettamega

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Response to mettamega (Reply #50)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:30 PM

55. What is a semiautomatic machine gun?

 

I'm certain he's not using any machine gun since they're pretty much impossible to get, extremely expensive to own and are actually rare unlike the elusive white tail deer.

Semi-automatic weapons on the other hand are extremely popular for home and rural property defense, exactly like what the OP is talking about.

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Response to TheMoreYouKnow (Reply #55)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:12 PM

87. I had a terrible daydream while reading this thread--

one in which I killed off the last of the rare whitetails with my semiautomatic machine gun. I swear I didn't mean to do it, I guess the 30 tranquilizer rounds from that semiautomatic machine gun overdosed the poor critter…

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:29 PM

54. Agreed. However, no concealed carry. Open carry only with gun locks engaged.

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Response to on point (Reply #54)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:52 PM

81. What is a "gun lock"?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #81)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:14 PM

89. Presumably a safety, as in "Lock & load."

I assume they didn't mean a trigger-guard lock, which would be sorta awkward in the field…

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #89)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:27 PM

96. The origins of "lock & load" remain mysterious, particularly given that you do the opposite

You load your weapon and then lock it. Some people think John Wayne flubbed a line and it caught on.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:39 PM

66. It's not a black/white issue--it's a grey one

In reading what you wrote--it seems clear that there are 2 main reasons that many rural folk own guns--hunting and protecting your family at your home. I have absolutely NO problems with that. My cousins live in rural Idaho and they have handguns and a shotgun. Their nearest neighbor is miles away and they are basically snowbound in the winter months. They also hunt. However, they do NOT have semi-automatic guns that shoot massive amounts of bullets in a short span of time. Nor do they conceal carry when they walk into town or go once a month into "the city". They never talk about going to the movies strapped nor walking around the mall in the larger towns with guns.

The practicality of gun ownership in rural America makes sense. For the reasons you described above. However the CT shooting and the recent one on Christmas Eve were done by people using semi-automatic weapons--and they weren't using it defensively--they were using it to purposely kill people.

I have family members who live in urban/suburban environments who have guns. They are kept at home for what they say is security purposes in case of home invasion. However, none of them conceal carry nor advocate the whole "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." They realize that it impractical in an urban environment. Too many people, too many issues--add in weapons, and you are open for some serious issues.

The 2nd amendment guaranteed a right to bear arms--but it wasn’t' made clear on some issues that affect modern day America. It was written in a time when guns were a necessary part of everyday life for EVERYONE. I'm all for --have your shotgun, handgun for hunting, shooting, family defense. But I have issues with letting people walk around concealing guns because they THINK they are going to stop a lunatic--even though I'd bet few have had extensive defensive shooting practice. You want to carry a gun around every day--you need a permit and you have to re-up that permit. I also believe that semi-automatic weapons and magazines with huge amounts of bullets aren’t' necessary. Where do we stop? Responsible gun ownership has to start with a conversation on why semi-automatic weapons are necessary. The whole yelling 2nd amendment as a defense doesn’t hold water.

And yes, we have to do a better job of not letting people with issues own guns. However, even though the shooter in CT had issues that were present before the incident, it isn't always crystal clear. Who's to say that someone who now owns a gun, purchased it legally and was of sound mind at the time, doesn’t snap later on and now has a device that can take out people easily.

Not everyone sees the 2nd amendment as an absolute for people to be able to carry whatever kind of gun they want. I know people argue that if we limit the kinds of guns "the good guys" have access to, then the "bad guys" will. Well, considering that many illegal guns start out as legal purchases, to me ends that argument. Don't want bad guys to have semi-automatic weapons--don't let them be sold so the "bad guys" can steal them.

This isn't a black and white situation when it comes to guns. We can't get rid of them all--but at the same time, arming everyone who walks on 2 legs isn't the simple answer either. We need to sit down and talk about it. However, since nowadays most people live in a black/white I'm right/you're wrong world--nothing on this will ever meet with a compromise and that is a shame. I don't want to live in a society where teachers are armed--and our schools are treated like prisons or fortresses. I don't want to be so afraid to go out in public in case people get so angry at one another-they draw their guns and start shooting. There has to be a 3rd way. We just have to be brave enough to talk about it.

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Response to silhouete2 (Reply #66)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:10 PM

86. Most guns used in crime ARE NOT

stolen from people who own guns legally. Between 10 and 15% of guns used in crime are stolen from those people. A far higher number of guns used in crime come from straw purchases which is already a federal crime that is not enforced all the time.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:42 PM

69. That is no excuse

As per quite a few posters to me when I have expressed the same reasons.

I 100% agree with you.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:48 PM

74. Rabbits

I was born in 1945 and in the late 50's, Dad, some of his friends and I went rabbit hunting using 22's. We did this because the rabbit population had peaked in our area. When that happens they threaten farmers windbreaks and orchards. They are starving and they will eat the bark.

In those years most farmers kept chickens so predator control (foxes and coyotes) was important. Lacking their natural controls the population would cycle as Myxomatosis was natures final answer. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myxomatosis . Now, few farmers keep chickens, so the population of foxes and coyotes has been allowed to increase, so the rabbit question does no longer come up.

I believe that when people upset the 'natural order of things' we have a responsibility to correct our mistakes.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:49 PM

77. We aquired a rifle and a shotgun when we lived in a rural area.

You did an excellent job describing the practical scenarios where those types of weapons become necessary.

I think the discussion needs to focus on the assault weapons.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:54 PM

82. why do you keep posting op after op on this. It's getting a tad redundant

and it's making you look as if you fall into the gun nut category.

For the record, I also live in a rural area and I have nothing against guns used as you describe- though I don't think they're nearly as much of a necessity as you make out. By the way, couldn't your neighbor have called the authorities about the dog? Animal control or the cops? There are other options.

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Response to cali (Reply #82)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:53 PM

102. Can't speak for the OP, but where I grew up animal control was mostly a fiction.

Our county has maybe two or three animal control officers and they are spread pretty thin. (Knowing you live on a ranch, I'm pretty sure you've seen that same scenario yourself.) If you do run into a rabid animal, you may be waiting a while if you call the county for help. That is not intended as a slam on anybody--just a statement of our reality. Add the presence of kids, livestock, or family pets into the mix and waiting hours or maybe even days for somebody to show up to help is not really viable.

As for hunting for meat, yeah, we did that too. Our rule was you killed it only if you were planning to eat it. Can't say it is as "wholesome" and natural as some would like to make it sound, but it was a fact of our lives that we ate rabbit, pheasant, and venison. We knew there was a death carried in the eating of flesh--but it was the choice you make when you choose to eat any kind of meat--be it wild or farm raised. (I've also eaten my fair share of fish, too, come to think of it...) I've always maintained that if we had to kill it and dress it out all by ourselves our nation would eat a whole lot less meat, and there's sure be a lot less waste of food.

We never needed an AK or any kind of semi-automatic weapons, but the shotgun and the rifle did come in handy a few times over the years. I'd hate to see that ability to fend for yourself lost forever.

YMMV.



Laura

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:20 PM

91. +1

good post.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:41 PM

99. Or you could just use a bow and a knife...

Tons o people in my small town did that. If you can take the time to learn to fire a weapon you could easily do the same with a bow and a knife. One of my best friends who tied the world record for consecutive clay pigeons shot with a 12 gauge by youth under the age of 13 also held state titles for bow shooting. Seriously, the only success with banning guns is all or nothing. This exception shit is legitimizing arguments that gun bans are ineffective, and that undercuts all the arguments made about rifles, large clips, auto weapons, or anything else. Don't trust me? Ask the Brady campaign how effective their legislative efforts have been.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:04 PM

108. Agree with OP; we live in a rural area as well

Husband had to shoot a rabid raccoon to prevent it from biting our horses or other critters. We also see black bear now and then.

Farm down the road had a herd of horses that were not fenced in properly; they'd wander over everyone's property, and the stallion was particularly threatening (and I can handle horses). One shot in the air and they left us alone.

Most people here have farm and/or hunting guns; a few nuts have hand guns just to feel macho. But I'm for a ban on assault weapons of any kind.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:12 PM

109. An "assault rifle" is not out of place in Montana.

...or Alaska, North Dakota, or Washington state, where ranchers use them when they're out checking fences or tracking down a stray. Encountering a wild animal like a brown bear with cubs can become a life and death experience at the drop of a Stetson, and a heavy bolt action rifle with five rounds can be slow and relatively ineffective in such a situation where there are no cell towers.

These people may feel they're being treated unfairly by being lumped in with criminals, and they have a legitimate point, but I'm not opposed to common sense regulation like waiting periods and registration. Laws like that won't take away their right to own the tools of the trade, but may stop a nut who came up with a suicide mission on the spur of the moment. I don't even mind restricting extended mags and flash suppressors, because I think those are combat options.

While a high powered semi-auto rifle is a common and useful tool in rural areas, they take on an entirely different context on the streets of a major metropolis. I prefer moderation over an outright ban because despite what many want to believe, these guns are not used only to kill school children. We just never read about people who use one to stop a wild boar or a cougar because it isn't interesting.

Perhaps cities like Chicago or Detroit can pass a local ordinance that prevents having one within the city limits. A fair number of these weapons would be confiscated through traffic stops and taken off the mean streets where gangs use them as intimidation and enforcement of their turf.

Well written and thought out post. K&R and thanx for the long overdue perspective.

BTW... In ten years I never earned an "ignore" from a fellow DUer, but this issue is so heated and divisive I've collected 14 in the past seven days, and I never advocated in a post for LaPierre or the NRA, that I see as an arm of the GOP. I've even had a few posts went unsuccessfully to a jury for not agreeing with a ban of all firearms. It's just that some DUers see all guns as murder machines that must be thrown in the ocean, and while everyone is entitled to an opinion, demanding I unconditionally share theirs is unreasonable. I have no one on my own ignore list.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #109)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:43 PM

119. FYI, I am sure you meant "assault weapon"

since assault rifles are extremely rare and cost prohibitive.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:14 PM

110. Excellent post,

presenting the very real uses of the guns rural Americans rely upon.

My son, raised in suburbia, asked me what I think about hunting to which I replied there are few sadder sights than a starving deer which can happen if the deer population becomes too big and the winter too long and too hard.

What we need is for rural Americans and urban/suburban Americans to come together, recognize the needs of each group and find ways to keep those vital weapons out of hands of the criminal and insane elements who populate our cities and towns. The extremists on both
sides of this issue have made all of us less safe.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:34 PM

113. but why would you need to take your gun outside of your home and yard?

 

you don't need your gun in the street

and there is no reason for having a gun in the street.

Actually, I don't see that any of those reasons make any sense for having 20 kids killed in CT.
not one.

Just because you have hobbies, don't mean the whole country should suffer for them.

And a gun helps put out a fire???That is a new one on me.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:45 PM

121. Sincere Question

How do we define rural? How removed from the nearest neighbor do you have to be? Or is it a population density thing.

I live right in the middle of a city, but to people we know who live in Chicago or the bigger 'burbs, we live in the middle of nowhere.

To the people on the north shore, we live in South America.

So how rural is rural? Not sparking an argument, Mad. Just curious.
GAC

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:05 PM

127. I used to live in the lower Sierra Nevada Mountains. I had 20 acres 4 horses 6 dogs 3 cats a bird

and some fish. My wife and I lived there alone about 30 miles from Bakersfield, 30 miles from Tehachapi and 30 miles from Lake Isabella. We had about 1200 neighbors in about a 100 square mile area.

We never locked our doors at night. Our neighbors were a close nit group. everyone waved hi to anyone they passed whether they knew them or not. When ever anyone needed money for some emergency we raised the money by having pot luck dinners that we sold tickets to and all the money went to the needy person. It was open range country were cattle roomed free. Just about as close to the wild west as you could get. We even had branding and cattle drives.

The only gun I owned was a Ruger .22 single action that I used for target shooting.

So you see, not everyone in Rural America thinks life is so dangerous we need guns.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #127)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:08 PM

129. Even my mom can shoot a .22 rifle

and she's ...well, up there in years. You don't need more than that or maybe a 12-gauge. Anything else is just because you want to pretend to be a badass and has nothing to do with protection.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:06 PM

128. It's necessary in the sticks

But nobody needs high capacity magazines or AR-15's in the sticks, either. Temperance in all things. A 12 gauge is plenty for most purposes in the sticks.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:17 PM

133. Yeah, a gun is more or less a necessity here.

I try not to shoot anything if I can help it. Pretty much unless it has rabies or it's a feral hog or something injured beyond all help, I'm going to livetrap it and move it if it's a nuisance and leave it alone if it isn't.

My gun never leaves the area around my property.

I do support high capacity bans, and usually have a stricter definition of "high capacity" than non gun owners. I also support creation of a mechanism to prevent rapid changing of magazines and absurdly harsh penalties for bypassing it or selling something to bypass it.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:51 PM

151. But my question is do you need a sem-auto weapon to do it?

 

I would think a 22 would suffice, unless you are in bear country. Then a shotgun would work.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #151)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:58 PM

156. You do, for one of these

Not even one shotgun blast will usually take one down. In NC, there are so many, they are legally classified as vermin, and there is no penalty in killing one.




They are very, very aggressive.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #156)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:41 PM

189. good lord, i'd not want anyone I love going up against a pack of those! Because safer than

that would be to band together and start a program to eradicate the population. from what I hear, the population is exploding, even though it's in areas where many have guns.
it sucks govt is so defunded but they really should be assisting in areas where the population is endangering human life.
awful silly to think picking them off one at a time is doing anything.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #151)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 09:33 AM

182. It depends on a number of factors, but

I would not want to take on a bear with a shotgun. Nor a boar. They are mean and smart, and hard to kill.

For any large animal I'd want at least a 30-06 or a 45-70. Not a problem where I live: a .22 or 410 is all we have ever needed for pest control; but if you think you'll encounter a serious threat, I suggest doing some homework.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:59 PM

157. We've had sheep, chickens, dogs and cats become prey for various predators here

Mostly coyotes, but we've also had problems with wild dogs, raccoons and although we've never seen a mountain lion, we've seen tracks in the creek bed.

But the critter we've had to deal with most frequently is the Western Diamondback Rattlesnake.

They crawl up onto our warm asphalt driveway apron when the sun goes down on summer evenings and they're still there in the morning when I go down to the mailbox to get the paper. I've found them in my shed and once even in the clothes dryer in our garage. I used to use a .410 ca "coach gun" to dispatch them but lately I've been using .357 hand loaded shotshells in my Vaquero. Some summers I've shot a dozen of them although the past 2 years they have been less numerous.

Without guns it would be a real pain in the ass to live out here. My wife thinks it's a pain in the ass anyway so I don't know how much longer we'll be here.

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Response to tularetom (Reply #157)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:04 PM

159. HUGE Copperheads here

Several feet long.


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Response to tularetom (Reply #157)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:01 PM

167. There's one good thing about a large diamondback like that one

 

They taste pretty good.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:18 PM

162. I agree,

although I live rurally and don't own a gun.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:53 PM

173. What you don't need is a semi auto military style weapon.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #173)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:24 PM

184. Why, because it looks scary?

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #184)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:26 PM

185. Yes it does, particularly to 6 year olds about to die.

Douche. Go back to the cave or wherever you came from.

Dear jury go ahead and hide it. It is open season here for NRA idiots to post their NRA idiocy.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 01:36 AM

175. Excellent

Am 25 miles from nearest town in frozen west ND. and I agree emphatically...

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 05:37 AM

179. Great post..

thanks for bringing some common sense to a debate that too often is dominated by extremists from both sides..

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 06:54 AM

180. Why I am a gun owner

 

Because I can, that’s why.

More precisely there are too many Conservative, Rethuglicans, TeaHadists and religious nutters running around with guns, I view my gun ownership as my individual MAD.

Do I have semi-auto's, yup but not an AR15, I also have 12 gauge shot guns, bolt action rifles and pistols.

The wife and I also both have CCW permits but we do not always carry, it depends on what we are doing.

We are also both vets and neither of us hunt, we find hunting morally representable.

We also live in a rural area and it would take the police/sheriff/state trooper a minimum of 20 minutes, on a good day, to make it to our house.

We also have wild critters, bears, that could pose a threat but normally they do not. 1 time in 10 years I had to use a gun to protect myself from a bear and I only fired a warning shot and the bear beat feet uninjured.

I am also the type of person who if you come down my drive way or step anywhere on my property and I do not know you I will greet you carrying a gun, why because YOU IGNORED the MULTIPLE Big Frigging NO Trespassing Signs.

I fully support licensing, and annual proficiency testing of gun owners including passing a psychological exam. I also support gun owners being 100% liable for whatever happens with their gun, if your gun is stolen it means you did not have it secure and you need to accept the consequences for your actions. I also support random inspection of how people secure and store their weapons; if they are stored incorrectly you LOSE your right to guns forever, period, no appeal.

Guns should be the hardest thing to obtain in America but sadly they are not and I do not seeing it changing anytime soon. Too much money involved.

So everyone is going to hem and haw about guns for a while, Congress will passed some useless law on gun control and everyone will act all happy till the next gun massacre happens and we will be back to square one.

Why, because we are a VIOLENT Country formed out of violence and as a nation we have been at war more then we have been at peace we condone violence. America has been at war for about 212 years out of its 236 year existence
That is why America condones violence; it is ingrained in our culture and killing is considered acceptable by the Government.

Do I have a solution, nope not at all, nor do I think one will happen anytime soon. However 1 thing I know that needs to stop is the gun show loop holes and private gun sales. If one goes to a gun show, any gun show, and you have the knowledge you can buy the parts and instructions to turn your assault rifle into the full auto version. There is also an entire underground arms business just like there is for drugs, if you want weed you can find it just like guns, if you want one, plenty of people are willing to sell you one no questions asked.

We also allow war criminals to walk around free in the United States with the protection of the Federal Government which contributes to the culture, if Government Officials can kill for no reason without punishment or consequences, why can’t I as an individual do the same thing?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 11:11 PM

192. You aren't using an assault weapon or street-sweeper in the country.

You use practical guns, not guns that are designed for war.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #192)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:56 AM

196. You mean guns like bolt action rifles, revolvers, semi auto pistols,

lever action rifles and shotguns, pump action rifles and shotguns, black powder rifles, muskets, cap and ball pistols, breech loading rifles pistols and shotguns, and "gasp" semi auto rifles. They are all weapons of war, they were ALL designed as weapons of war. Using "designed for war" as a arbitrary term for prohibition seems disingenuous at best, deliberate at worst.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:01 AM

197. You need a 30-round clip in an automatic assault weapon to shoot a dog?

The ONLY reason these weapons exist is to make it easy to kill a lot of people very quickly.

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