HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » The great unmentionable e...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 03:48 PM

 

The great unmentionable evil.

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by HappyMe (a host of the General Discussion forum).

87 replies, 10617 views

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 87 replies Author Time Post
Reply The great unmentionable evil. (Original post)
Whovian Dec 2012 OP
niyad Dec 2012 #1
Whovian Dec 2012 #2
niyad Dec 2012 #7
nightscanner59 Dec 2012 #37
byeya Dec 2012 #3
CitizenK9 Dec 2012 #34
Bainbridge Bear Dec 2012 #70
whathehell Dec 2012 #4
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #73
eridani Dec 2012 #5
caseymoz Dec 2012 #10
Whovian Dec 2012 #13
Lordquinton Dec 2012 #22
Whovian Dec 2012 #23
caseymoz Dec 2012 #29
thucythucy Dec 2012 #54
BlueMTexpat Dec 2012 #61
Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2012 #83
littlemissmartypants Dec 2012 #12
DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #24
Bluenorthwest Dec 2012 #46
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #6
cbrer Dec 2012 #8
Whovian Dec 2012 #9
littlemissmartypants Dec 2012 #11
Whovian Dec 2012 #14
Rider3 Dec 2012 #18
littlemissmartypants Dec 2012 #20
Raksha Dec 2012 #76
ErikJ Dec 2012 #15
harmonicon Dec 2012 #16
harmonicon Dec 2012 #17
Bluenorthwest Dec 2012 #48
harmonicon Dec 2012 #80
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #62
harmonicon Dec 2012 #81
sulphurdunn Dec 2012 #19
Bluenorthwest Dec 2012 #49
SkyDaddy7 Dec 2012 #55
sulphurdunn Dec 2012 #60
Raksha Dec 2012 #78
sulphurdunn Dec 2012 #85
arely staircase Dec 2012 #21
paleotn Dec 2012 #58
arely staircase Dec 2012 #59
Arugula Latte Dec 2012 #66
arely staircase Dec 2012 #84
Arugula Latte Dec 2012 #86
arely staircase Dec 2012 #87
Poll_Blind Dec 2012 #25
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #26
DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #27
Comrade Grumpy Dec 2012 #77
cecilfirefox Dec 2012 #28
arely staircase Dec 2012 #33
grantcart Dec 2012 #47
Festivito Dec 2012 #30
Whovian Dec 2012 #31
Festivito Dec 2012 #32
cordelia Dec 2012 #57
whathehell Dec 2012 #79
DollarBillHines Dec 2012 #35
Festivito Dec 2012 #43
bluesbassman Dec 2012 #36
Whovian Dec 2012 #39
bluesbassman Dec 2012 #40
Bluenorthwest Dec 2012 #51
bluesbassman Dec 2012 #67
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #38
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #41
tecelote Dec 2012 #42
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #52
Raksha Dec 2012 #82
grahamhgreen Dec 2012 #44
RandiFan1290 Dec 2012 #45
Waiting For Everyman Dec 2012 #50
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #74
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #53
Dustlawyer Dec 2012 #56
nonoxy9 Dec 2012 #63
farminator3000 Dec 2012 #64
Arugula Latte Dec 2012 #65
liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #68
Arugula Latte Dec 2012 #75
whathehell Dec 2012 #69
valerief Dec 2012 #71
The CCC Dec 2012 #72

Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 03:51 PM

1. think I will send this off to fungus (aka focus on the family)

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to niyad (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 03:56 PM

2. LOL. I'm sure they will take it to heart.

 

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:05 PM

7. nah, of course they won't. however, one of my favourite pastimes is to annoy the heck out

of them. I have them on speed dial.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to niyad (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:15 AM

37. OOOOOH! I wanna order pizza's there too! Can you post their number?

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 03:56 PM

3. I still think Gore Vidal wrote the finest essays in the 20th century. Many were carried by The

 

Nation and most are available in his 3 books of collected essays.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to byeya (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 11:43 PM

34. Particularly "United States" ("the" intentionally omitted)

 

1200 pages of great essays on politics, literature, and whatever. Can be found second hand at reasonable prices.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to byeya (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:25 PM

70. I would add the name

 

of Louis Lapham to that pantheon.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 03:59 PM

4. Yeah, whatever.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to whathehell (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:32 PM

73. +1

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:03 PM

5. Rome was polytheist. As Larry Gonick (Cartoon History of the Universe) once said

"How many languages even have a word that means 'Kill every tenth person'?"

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eridani (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:16 PM

10. No, it turned monotheist


. . . and was monotheist 150 years before it fell in the West, and remained monotheist and just as barbaric for another 1,000 years in the East.

I'm sure other languages had a word that was quite a bit more bloodthirsty than "kill every tenth man." The Mongols, the Huns, and the Celts, I'm certain, had a word like that. English of course, has the word "annihilate." Gonick needed to do more research before he made that point.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to caseymoz (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:24 PM

13. Key word in your addressed post is WAS.

 

I would love to see some links to other words that denoted "kill every tenth person" or equivalents.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 06:56 PM

22. It's a compound word

from a couple other words that mean "10% destroyed" Every language has their own words that seem horrible to others, but just fine to us.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lordquinton (Reply #22)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 07:08 PM

23. Is English not a first language for you?

 

Was infers past tense.

Here's a ;ilt of compound words for the grammatically challenged.

http://www.learningdifferences.com/Main%20Page/Topics/Compound%20Word%20Lists/Compound_Word_%20Lists_complete.htm

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 08:27 PM

29. Sidetrack

My point was, Rome didn't fall until after it was Christianized. Any linguistic reference you want to check out to prove me wrong about how you say "annihilate" in other languages feel free to do so if you're that curious. I declare my opinion and try to intrigue people, but it's not my job to persuade you or anybody here.

I did find out one thing out of curiosity: the Latin word decimatio had nothing to do with inflicting losses on the enemy. It was form of discipline the Romans performed on their own soldiers whereby a unit was divided into ten man groups who drew lots. The one who drew the "short straw" was to executed by the other nine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_%28Roman_army%29

Odd thing is, it's been practiced in modern warfare, most notably by the Italian General Luigi Codorna in World War I. Need I point out that's long after Italy was Christianized?

Also, the practice of it being forced on POW's apparently first happened in the 20th century during the Russian Civil War.

Now, since you're so in love with seeing the links you describe, go for it.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:36 AM

54. I think the word in question is "decimate"

which was a Roman term for a Roman (pre-Christian) policy. The idea was to pick at random one out of ten people you wanted to punish, and execute them as an example. I believe this practice is described in "The Annals of Tacitus." I believe it's Tacitus as well who documents what happened when the Britons rebelled--this after their queen, seeking to make the Roman governor live up to the treaty signed under a previous emperor, was whipped and her daughters gang-raped as an example of Roman "justice." I think it's this account from which the famous phrase about the "Pax Romana" is taken -- "They bring everywhere a desolation and call it peace."

I'm no fan of sky gods, but I think it's silly to romanticize (another interesting word) the histories of pagan Rome, Greece, Egypt, etc. All their economies were built on slave labor. All of them--with the possible exception of Athens, and that for only a couple of generations, were brutal oligarchies where dissent was generally met with torture and death. War was just as brutal then as now, except we of course now have much deadlier arsenals with which to spread our desolation.

Read Thucycides "History of the Peloponnesian War," especially the chapter on the fate of the people of Melos. The Melosians tried to remain neutral in the war between Sparta and Athens. In retaliation, the Athenians conquered their land, massacred every adult male, and sold the women and children into slavery. This was how the Athenian "democracy" Of Pericles waged war--"the good guys" in most accounts of the struggle. And when the Romans finally conquered Carthage, they slaughtered and enslaved its population, leveled the city, and plowed the ground with salt so that no one could ever resettle that land. This was a deliberate policy of genocide and ecocide--this hundreds of years before the advent of Christianity as the state religion.

Patriarchal religion --and especially fundamentalisms derived there from -- is definitely a huge factor in the woes of the world, but as I say, I wouldn't want to pretend that all was wine and roses before its advent. And while I'm a great fan of Gore Vidal's, I think in this case he may be simplying things a bit.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to thucythucy (Reply #54)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:16 AM

61. Nice post! Welcome to DU! eom

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to thucythucy (Reply #54)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:23 PM

83. Read Suetonius' The Twelve Caesars to find out how "wonderful" the

pre-Christian Romans were.

I did so after seeing "I, Claudius" on TV, and while the TV series (and the two-part novel on which it was based) portrays Claudius as a virtuous exception to the corruption and murders all around him, Suetonius says that he was almost as bad as the others.

For the Roman emperors, it was fuck anyone of either gender whom you want--whether they agree or not, kill anyone you want in whatever horrific ways you can think of, sparing not even small children; conquer anyone you can and make slaves of them.

I loved Gore Vidal's writing, but his anger at Christianity made him over-romanticize the ancient world.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eridani (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:23 PM

12. The earth still is, last time I checked. n/t

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eridani (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 07:51 PM

24. It started off that way

But for the Romans embraced Christianity because they saw how it made people behave. It helped keep Rome for 400 years more on the East, and a thousand years more in the West (aka Byzantium.) Also, keep in mind, only killing every tenth person was considered mellow and organized compared to what usually happened to losing soldiers. It is like the old Sumerian "eye for an eye" law, it was meant to keep the ancients from doing far worse than normal.

However, while Vidal has his issues, it is hard to deny that the really violent/pushy/aggressive religions are the fruit of Abraham. Yes, there are good Jews/Christians/Muslims but the priests/rabbis/imams often seem to treat coexistence as a sin. If the three faiths are Jerusalem were: Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism, chances are the Holy land would have a lot less bullets.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eridani (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:05 AM

46. Decimation was a discipline method used on Roman soldiers.

This is how they punished those who were fearful of battle. The unit was divided into groups of ten, one selected for death, the other 9 killed the 10th member. That is what the Romans meant by the term originally. Roman enemies had losses greater than 1 out of 10....
English, of course, has the word 'genocide'. Which means 'kill them all'.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:05 PM

6. K&R !!! n/t

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:09 PM

8. Oh...Sorry

 

I thought this was a thread about Grover Norquist!

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cbrer (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:11 PM

9. LOL x2

 

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:21 PM

11. Namaste.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to littlemissmartypants (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:34 PM

14. Wonderful. n/t

 

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to littlemissmartypants (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 06:23 PM

18. Peace

Thanks for this photo!

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Rider3 (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 06:29 PM

20. You're welcome.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to littlemissmartypants (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:45 PM

76. Beautiful picture - thank you for posting it.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 05:14 PM

15. The sun god.

Monotheism started in Egypt with the Sun God. It was reborn on Dec 25 after dying on Dec 22 the shortest day of the year. Old Testament was evolved from this.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ErikJ (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 06:02 PM

16. There's more to it than that.

The Egyptian sun god thing was just one version - the story of Zeus/Jupiter was also very similar to that of other prime deities.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 06:03 PM

17. Oh, what a bunch of shit.

The only way that crap could have any impact was in the gods were real. It's people who carry about these acts of atrocity, and they do it no matter what their religion is, though using a religion as an excuse can be awfully handy.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to harmonicon (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:13 AM

48. I beg to differ. A 'god' or any other thing does not need to be real, simply believed to be real

to serve to motivate humans to action. Some people 'hear voices' which order them to do things, which they then do. The voices are not real, the actions are real.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #48)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:17 PM

80. On the contrary, the voices are real to them.

People who actually hear voices do hear them. They aren't voices belonging to others that others can hear, but they occur in the brain as if they were. The comparison isn't apt.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to harmonicon (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:31 AM

62. I kind of read that as his point.

This was a riff on 'man created god' and the purposes behind it. That's how I read it, anyway.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #62)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:20 PM

81. Why target monotheism then?

I know that it's a simple target for some people, but it misses the point, I think. As others have pointed out, the Roman Empire, Persian Empire, Vikings, Mongol Horde, and others were not monotheists, and they were responsible for an awful lot of war and destruction. People join religions for political purposes, not the other way around.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 06:28 PM

19. The Monotheism

Vidal describes is what happens when religion is conscripted into the service of a tribe an ideology or a state. The same evil befalls science. I believe that Monism is the actual foundation of personal religious inquiry and is best expressed in traditional mysticism and modern sciences not in the service of anything other than personal inquiry.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:17 AM

49. The religions he speaks of were created by tribes and nations, not conscripted by them.

The 12 Tribes of the OT did not find some religion and 'conscript it' they invented the religion. Monism was created as a tribal and nationalist device. The entire expression of Monism has been around governments and states and vast religious institutions. The whole point was 'they belong to Baal, you belong to a God so fucking angry you are not allowed to speak his name, thus we are a people apart from other peoples'.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:52 AM

55. NO...

The Monotheism Vidal describes is the EXACT monotheism in the Old Testament...All 3 desert religions whose religious foundations come from the Old Testament are literally built upon an US vs THEM tribe mentality.

What "tribe mentality" in science are you referring to? The tribe mentality that there is zero evidence for the super natural? If so, that is not tribe mentality that is science...If there is no evidence for something then science is not going to be very concerned with it.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SkyDaddy7 (Reply #55)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 11:10 AM

60. Monism is not

necessarily predicated upon a supernatural belief system like monotheism or theism which hold that a supreme being exists independently of its creation. Monism is the belief or theory that there is one thing or being that explains everything and that everything is an expression of that reality. In Hinduism it's called Brahman, in Buddhism it is Daharma. In theoretical physics it's called the Theory of Everything. The essential difference between monism and monotheism is the difference between saying god created the heavens and the earth, and that god became the heavens and the earth. In the latter, no definition of god is possible. Ancient monotheists, by contrast, who worshiped the sun had a perfectly sound religion that was based upon the best scientific evidence of the day. Unfortunately for the world, the monotheism of the desert Semites was not.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sulphurdunn (Reply #60)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:01 PM

78. And in Jewish mysticism it's called Ayn Sof, which translates as something like "the Boundless."

Re "Monism is the belief or theory that there is one thing or being that explains everything and that everything is an expression of that reality. In Hinduism it's called Brahman, in Buddhism it is Daharma. In theoretical physics it's called the Theory of Everything. The essential difference between monism and monotheism is the difference between saying god created the heavens and the earth, and that god became the heavens and the earth."

It's a good thing us desert Semites gave ourselves the Kaballah as an escape route, or our religion would be truly intolerable. And for those who insist upon a strict exoteric monotheism, rather than some form of monism--it is.

Ayn Sof is equivalent to Brahman in Hinduism.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Raksha (Reply #78)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:16 PM

85. Desert Semites

in that context was an ill chosen and thoughtless expression. I apologize. Christians also has mystical traditions similar to the other Western and Eastern religions.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 06:45 PM

21. merry christmas

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."
Luke 10:25-28

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to arely staircase (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:49 AM

58. actually, arely....

...you don't need a "Lord thy God" to treat thy neighbor as thyself. So happy Yule back at you.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to paleotn (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:56 AM

59. true but

but you can't love the Lord without loving your neighbor. that is the point.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to arely staircase (Reply #59)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:24 PM

66. But if this "Lord" exists why is it such a murderous cretin to millions of people and animals?

What a ginormous a-hole it must be.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #66)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:35 PM

84. why do you assume the Lord plays a part in any of that?

i know fundamentalists who think God takes personal interest in their private lives and what befalls them. i do not.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to arely staircase (Reply #84)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:20 PM

86. So it's a hands-off deity?

Is the Lord you believe in omnipotent? If so, it's pretty evil of it to just be too disinterested to actually prevent suffering. If it's not omnipotent, then I guess it's a second-rate god.

I posted this quote below: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

It seems to me being religious requires one to twist one's mind into a pretzel. Once again happy to be a non-believer...

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #86)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:48 PM

87. i don't reject reason in the slightest, nor does my church ask me to do so

i am an episcopalian and we believe in evolution and science, not a god that intervenes in our everyday afairs (as fundamentalists believe, and as those who think all christians believe like the loudmouthed ones who literally interpret the bible.) now i can't speak for all episcopalians, there are many of us with many difrrent views. i am a christian because i feel compelled to follow the moral teachings of jesus christ (mainly helping the poor and working for social justice) and to worship him through a particular liturgy (the anglican communion) so honestly your entire premise based on an intervening/personal god is not part of my faith, worldview, christology, what have you.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 07:54 PM

25. Gore Vidal.



PB

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 07:57 PM

26. "hence the loathing of women..."

That kind of stupid shit never fails to amuse...

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #26)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 08:21 PM

27. well, look at this

What is the status of woman under the three Jerusalem faiths?

Despite the fact that all these faiths have female leaders, women who literally helped found the faith (Magdalene in Christianity, Ruth in Judaism, Khadjia in Islam) most of the denominations do not even let women be priests, or even use birth control.

I admit, my knowledge of Cherokee tradition is slight, but I do know that many of the First Nations have Female shamans that are not just tokens, but who are actively respected and listened to, even if they offend males. Let's be blunt, when is the last time you saw a female religious authority on the television that was from the Jerusalem faiths?

All of them speak of women as being "unclean" because of their period. While many do speak for women's issue, all of these faiths are well represented whenever there is an effort to curb female rights, whether it is the right to work, right to an equal paycheck, or to vote. Tel Aviv, Cairo, Houston Texas, you all see people that act, talk and think the same about women and their place.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:45 PM

77. Hindu India seems to have some gender issues...

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 08:25 PM

28. Because I might run for office someday I will never state this in a public manner, it would slay me-

But monotheism is probably one of the greatest evils in the history of human existence. Yes, there was war in the ancient pagan world, and there were divisions based off religion, but take a look at that time period- people as a whole weren't to torn up if someone believed a different thing or followed a different god(s). It was considered fine and normal, different civilizations had different deities, and that was okay. Without a shadow of doubt I agree with Mr. Vidal on this one.

I mean, how many times do you hear of Hindu's committing mass murder against folks? The only real religious violence they have is essentially spurred by Muslim & Hindu relations- arguably because of the attitude of Muslims. (I might get slammed for that last one, but I think there is some merit to the idea that its their faith that causes the consternation, not the one that essentially teaches that all paths to God are pretty much okay)

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cecilfirefox (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 10:01 PM

33. the polytheistic aztecs had to rip out a human heart just to make the sun come up everyday

eom

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cecilfirefox (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:10 AM

47. There have been times of extreme violence in Hinduism

It was the tremendous blood letting of huge civil war that led King Asoke to seek a more peaceful alternative, Buddhism.

When India separated into two countries millions died and were killed by both Muslims and Hindus with each side being a mirror image of the either. When Ghandi came out against the violence of both sides it was a Hindu extremist that killed him for being to supportive of Muslim victims.

India was the first nation to test a nuclear weapon outside of the 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council (under the ironic name of Smiling Buddha).

Moreover Hindu India continues to practice a caste system, arguably a form of mass violence, and hundreds of women die every year due to honor killings, a practice that is still so common that it is largely unreported in some states.

Most Muslims are Asians. The three largest Muslim nations are Indonesia, Pakistan and Bengladesh. There are more Muslims in China in Saudia Arabia. My point is that your, and most people's opinions about Muslims, is largely based on events in the middle east that represent a minority of a minority of a minority of a group. The vast majority of Muslims live in rural Asian villages where there is very little gun ownership, very low levels of violence and a murder rate a fraction of ours.

The murder rate of both Bengladesh and Malaysia, for example, is not only less than India's but half of that of the US. (Japan and Singapore are one tenth of the US).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country

My point is not that Muslims are better than Hindus, but that your opinion of Muslims is based on a distorted view based on distortions in the media and that your view of Hindus is through rather rose colored lenses. I am a Buddhist and have no illusions that Buddhists commit fewer crimes than other religions (the murder rate between Thailand and the US is almost identical) but the presence of random violence is much much less than we have in the US.

The countries with very very low murder rates are: Japan, Singapore, Macau, Brunei (Muslim), Bahrain (M) UAE (M), Denmark,
Norway, Italy, Germany, Monaco, New Zealand,

As this map shows many Muslim countries have low murder rates, lower than the US:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country

I have a deep affection for both but that your opinion of Muslims is based on prejudice and not on the reality. It is not an uncommon feeling even among progressives but is due, IMO, to a lack of personal experience with Muslims and Islamic countries. Having lived in rural Muslim communities I found them surprisingly similar to a rural American community, except that there would be much less alcohol.



Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 08:58 PM

30. He never did figure it out.

God starts as sexless, not male, tossing his literality. It is ego-centric man who creates the disconnect from God and the problems he lists. The jealousy is not jealousy, rather metaphor for an understatement of tenaciousness. ... (Those who tell do not know, those who know do not tell. Although they may try.)

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Festivito (Reply #30)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 09:03 PM

31. I feel that

 

Gore Vidal had a better handle on reality than most. Including you.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 09:26 PM

32. How nice that you have an opinion.

Too bad that's the best you could do.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 10:22 AM

57. Gore Vidal - the man who called Roman Polanski's 13 year old rape victim

a "young hooker".

"I really don't give a fuck. Look, am I going to sit and weep every time a young hooker feels as though she's been taken advantage of?" Gore Vidal's "take on Polanski".

Wow.



Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cordelia (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:15 PM

79. Gore Vidal - The man who also called President Clinton "white trash".

He can suck it, AFAIC.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Festivito (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:35 AM

35. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

Huh?

Where do you get that stuff? Was it preached to you, or did you merely 'divine' it? Sounds as if you have got it down pat.

I grew up, Southern Baptist, washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

To this day, I am trying to wash that shit off.
DBH

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DollarBillHines (Reply #35)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:43 AM

43. Who is what in that quote from the great Oz?

The creation story at the start of the Bible starts with a Hebrew God with a name that is neither male nor female. You might want to find your own ancient Hebrew scholar to assert that. (I am not one, just knew one.)

That stuff in my post is just from me trying to keep perspective while describing what constantly seems indescribable as it connects to what I see being said. If it is down pat, I'll take that as a compliment, unintended as it may be.

It is sad that you feel so indelibly entangled with your youthful indoctrination. I hope you manage to dispel it and find the truth that really will set you free of it.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:38 AM

36. This is not an appropriate post for GD. It does not meet the SOP.

General Discussion (Forum): About This Forum
Statement of Purpose
Discuss politics, issues, and current events. No posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports unless there is really big news. No conspiracy theories. No whining about DU.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was a quote from an Esquire interview done in 1969. Hardly "really big news" or a current event. I don't have any problem at all with your desire to post this, it just should have been posted in either the Religion or Atheists and Agnostics groups.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bluesbassman (Reply #36)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:28 AM

39. Noted that you do not care for things that might make one question

 

certain belief systems.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:08 AM

40. I am so glad you have "noted" that Whovian. Unfortunately you're wrong.

Which part of my post indicated that I "do not care for things that make one question certain belief systems"? Could it be the part of the post where I said this: "I don't have any problem at all with your desire to post this, it just should have been posted in either the Religion or Atheists and Agnostics groups"?

This post does not belong in General Discussion because it is a post that is discussing religion and that is clearly outside of the SOP. Nothing more, nothing less. Can you give one valid reason why you believe this is an appropriate GD post?

What I do find interesting is your attempt to paint my post in a manner suggesting that I am discouraging discussion. Why would you do that I wonder?

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bluesbassman (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:28 AM

51. It is an OP about Gore Vidal, a great Democrat and American who we lost in 2012

Of course, Gore was teh gay and that sets off the religious folks. Vidal was about as political as it gets, and this quote is all about why folks like Gore and myself are treated as less than equal by the bulk of the population. Your religion, it is used for politics. You do not get a free pass to say 'God opposes gay people' in every political context under the sun and then claim any countering of that bullshit is 'in the wrong place'.
The President, Obama, has said many times that the reason he opposed human rights for others is that 'I'm a Christian'. The Prop 8 crap was a bunch of religion in politics used to harm others. You are claiming that the primary modality and lexicon of these attacks can be used AGAINST us by believers in politics, but must not be mentioned when defending ourselves against such religious attacks. I reject that entire concept.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #51)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:27 PM

67. You should edit your post Bluenorthwest.

First of all, you have written what appears to be an accusation that the points you are making are in response to my specific positions and beliefs. How you have arrived at these conclusions is a mystery for I have not indicated position anything regarding you have cited and I will not in this thread. The OP was a quote from Vidal that is critical of religion first. What discussion comes from that can go in any direction, but the bottom line is that it is a discussion of religion and as such is outside the SOP.

You have made some specific accusations like this: "You do not get a free pass to say 'God opposes gay people' in every political context under the sun and then claim any countering of that bullshit is 'in the wrong place'." These are not my words, and as I never said them in this thread, you have no basis for making that claim. This, and your continued personal attack on my unstated beliefs and positions, are exactly why discussing religion is not part of the GD SOP.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:19 AM

38. Bookmarked

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 04:12 AM

41. not at DU, it's not. it's mentioned weekly, such as your own post. the unmentionable evil

 

here is something else. a number of somethings, actually.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 05:07 AM

42. The Greek Gods make more sense.

A bunch of super-human beings living on a mountain playing tricks on the people below.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tecelote (Reply #42)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:28 AM

52. Yep, pretty much what we have today too! n/t

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RKP5637 (Reply #52)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 03:23 PM

82. Except that today we call them neocons and globalists and the 1% instead of gods,

although it's obvious from their behavior that they believe they are gods.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:57 AM

44. Exactly why we must not cut the military budget!!!

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:58 AM

45. Bravo!

Great thread. All the proper panties are wadded up. Good job!

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:22 AM

50. What about giving it a rest

at least at Christmas time??? Is that too much to ask?

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #50)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:34 PM

74. Give it a rest? The evangelical atheists are tireless.

Atheists want the right to not practice religion in the privacy of their own homes or even in public places.

Monotheists? No such rights.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:34 AM

53. Religion is all politics and a control mechanism for the masses. Get them believing in something

wherein one, a group, can manipulate them however wanted. ... and religion serves up great propaganda. And for many it's a real cash cow. And tax free to boot, what a lucrative deal.


Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 09:59 AM

56. Religion has been a force for both good and evil. Unfortunately, I believe

it is way more harmful than good. Too many wars over it, even though most religions talk of Peace as one of their primary goals.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:14 PM

63. Aah, yes. The ignorance of fundamentalist, evangelical athiesm...

As simplistic and loathing of anyone who disagrees with their personal belief system as the Taliban and Focus on the Family...

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:19 PM

64. a no-word comment

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:22 PM

65. Ah, yes, monotheism. It produces many conundrums.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
~Epicurus

I've never heard anyone who believes in "God" give an explanation other than "there is a plan," "we don't know all the ways of God," or something about "free will," which falls into the "God is malevolent" category.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #65)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:33 PM

68. It's no different than rolling the dice

If what you wanted to happen happened they say it's because God answered your prayer. If what you wanted to happen didn't happen then God must have a plan for why it didn't happen. So you either get what you wanted or you don't and you don't know why. Sounds no different than rolling the dice to me.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #68)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:41 PM

75. Yep.

And if God "saves" someone from some accident or natural disaster, the follow-up question usually remains unspoken -- why did God either allow or not prevent the trauma in the first place? Usually "He" comes out smelling like a rose, getting all of the credit and none of the blame...The dude has some good P.R.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:14 PM

69. Really?...It seems to get SO much mention here, LOL..As for Vidal,

he was an elitist social register type who looked down

on most outside his class, including Bill Clinton, whom he called "white trash".

Snobbish homosexual who denied his orientation on the basis of

his being a "pitcher" rather than a "catcher".

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:47 PM

71. Spot on, Gore! nt

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:29 PM

72. The great unmentionable evil.

Maybe his God, but not mine. If anything the mid 20th Century tyrants should have taught Mr. Vidal is that Atheism is every bit as vicious and mean murderous as Monotheism ever was.

Cannot reply in locked threads

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink