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Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:28 PM

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This message was self-deleted by its author (Deep13) on Sat Apr 5, 2014, 04:33 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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Reply This message was self-deleted by its author (Original post)
Deep13 Dec 2012 OP
Cooley Hurd Dec 2012 #1
Deep13 Dec 2012 #4
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #2
Deep13 Dec 2012 #3
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #6
Angry Dragon Dec 2012 #5
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #7
Angry Dragon Dec 2012 #12
Lady Freedom Returns Dec 2012 #29
ZombieHorde Dec 2012 #8
spin Dec 2012 #13
Paladin Dec 2012 #9
sarisataka Dec 2012 #10
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #14
OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #20
Deep13 Dec 2012 #25
Motown_Johnny Dec 2012 #11
dickthegrouch Dec 2012 #15
Deep13 Dec 2012 #26
Lady Freedom Returns Dec 2012 #30
shireen Dec 2012 #16
Arkansas Granny Dec 2012 #17
gulliver Dec 2012 #18
OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #19
Deep13 Dec 2012 #27
Maine-ah Dec 2012 #21
Lady Freedom Returns Dec 2012 #32
me b zola Dec 2012 #22
Deep13 Dec 2012 #28
me b zola Dec 2012 #38
Lady Freedom Returns Dec 2012 #33
me b zola Dec 2012 #36
burrowowl Dec 2012 #23
Hugabear Dec 2012 #24
Deep13 Dec 2012 #31
Hugabear Dec 2012 #39
Lady Freedom Returns Dec 2012 #34
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #35
intaglio Dec 2012 #37

Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:29 PM

1. Rec for facts...

I still think they should be heavily regulated, though...

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:32 PM

4. I'm not making an argument. nt

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:31 PM

2. Having A Dictionary Does Not Bring The Dead Back From Eternity - Repeal The 2nd Amendment Now!

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:32 PM

3. For the record, neither does having a Bible. nt

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:37 PM

6. No Reference Was Made To Religion - Only The Fact That Guns Kill Permanently And Forever

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:35 PM

5. .........






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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:39 PM

7. Your Thumbs Down Will Not Deter Americans That Have Had Enough Of The NRA And Gun Apologists

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 06:03 PM

12. Getting rid of the second will not solve anything

there will still be the hate and killing, just different means

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:12 AM

29. If one can not speak the lingo, it is hard to make a real argument.

Things can slip by if we don't know what the other side is saying.
This list is a good idea. Know the enemy.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:39 PM

8. Thanks for the terms. I will try to remember them for my DU debates. nt

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 06:09 PM

13. Good if we have a back and forth I will not have to spend time trying to explain simple terms.

Perhaps we can actually have a productive debate.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:45 PM

9. These Are NRA-Friendly Definitions, As Is Often The Case.


The "Assault Rifle," "Assault Weapon," and "High Capacity Magazine" definitions are the most obvious examples. Until we can reclaim the vocabulary from the gun militancy movement, we're going to lose.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:50 PM

10. These are the terms accepted within the industry

To arbitrarily change the definitions only creates confusion and laws which do not fulfill their intent.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 06:21 PM

14. Those definitions are absolutely standard, regardless of any NRA usage.

All of them except for "assault weapon" (which has been pointed out is something of a neologism) have been in standard use for decades. They have nothing to do with one's political position re: gun control.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:22 PM

20. "reclaim the vocabulary" ?!? Hell, gun controllers INVENTED that vocabulary.

 

IT'S ALREADY YOURS! Is it really too much to ask that you use technical conisistency with terms you all came up in the drafting of technically oriented legislation?

LOL, you really have no idea about gun control, do you.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:06 AM

25. Those who know about and are around guns...

...tend to invent the vocabulary.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:50 PM

11. Sorry but Civilian grade versions are still assault weapons.

You got a link for these definitions or are you just making them up?


The fact that military versions can be carried around in extreme weather conditions for long periods of time and still operate is not a factor. The civilian versions are typically stored inside and carried in a case. The demands on these weapons are far less than something being utilized in a war zone. The capabilities are what counts here and these weapons have nearly identical capabilities (on semi auto).

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 07:10 PM

15. Completely Irrelevant

The only definition we need is

Tool for Killing

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Response to dickthegrouch (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:07 AM

26. True only if the goal is a complete firearm ban...

...and I think you know that is not going to happen.

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Response to dickthegrouch (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:15 AM

30. Not when talking to the enemy.

They are nit pickers and we have to spell it out for them to understand. We need to know this stuff. If not, they could slip something by us.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 07:20 PM

16. thank you, it's useful

Your effort and intent in doing this is appreciated.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 07:45 PM

17. Thanks. I've bookmarked this thread.

There have been some posters who seen to feel that ones entire argument for gun control can be negated if the incorrect terminology is used.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:05 PM

18. Interesting, but remember that Jerry Sandusky probably knows football pretty well.

If Sandusky tried to say that he should be allowed to shower with young boys because it will help them with their football careers, we wouldn't say that someone who doesn't know football shouldn't question him.

To me, gun knowledge is no more impressive than, say, Pokemon or knowing how to barbecue food well on a grill. If gun knowledge is used to elucidate an argument, it is always ok with me. But I don't approve of using any knowledge to evade guilt or blame or to intimidate people with what amounts to psuedo-intellectual posturing.

I'm not saying that is the aim of your post, btw.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:19 PM

19. I don't see disconnector, autosear RDIAS, Linear Inertial Device (mass decoupler)...

 

rimfire, centerfire, ... the list goes on.

I give your list a B- lol.

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Response to OneTenthofOnePercent (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:09 AM

27. Fortunately, this is not a graded paper...

...and you are not my instructor.

These are terms I thought relevant to the political debate. You are free to add your own, of course.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:44 PM

21. great post, Deep13

If we are to make an argument for more gun regulations, or bans on specific guns, we should know what we're talking about.

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Response to Maine-ah (Reply #21)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:17 AM

32. +1 n/t

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:50 PM

22. Here is my definition of what the fuck ever

Thing built with the only expectation is of taking a life. Do we need those things in the community? I find a large difference between protecting oneself and the desire to own a hand gun and the fantasies of blowing another human being's head off.

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Response to me b zola (Reply #22)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:12 AM

28. So we should not know what we are talking about?

I see people agruing for bans on assault rifles. Well those are already illegal, so a ban would do nothing. Or people argue for bans on semiautomatics. Maybe that's what they want, but I suspect many think that will cover AR15s, AKs and nothing else. Not true.

The only way terminology is irrelevant is if you are arguing for a complete ban on gun possession and the SCOTUS has already ruled that unconstitutional.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:34 AM

38. I'm saying that we need to have a talk

The big "WE", as in U.S.

I'm saying that there is a difference between self defense and the romanticized US notion of killing the bad guy. Statistics show that people are in many cases less safe by owning a fire arm, and it is insane to fire a weapon in a suburban/uban environment (yes, yes, I know how each and everyone is an expert marksman). I'm saying that weapons made for the express purpose of killing human beings should not be in our streets nor in our homes.

I'm saying that we would be safer without these weapons and I don't give a crap about a weapon's name, just what its intended purpose is.

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Response to me b zola (Reply #22)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:20 AM

33. You do relies the other side can not understand a word of that?

We need to know what the other side is talking about. They will use us not knowing to their advantage.

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Response to Lady Freedom Returns (Reply #33)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:11 AM

36. I have owned firearms and know how to talk about them...if I choose to

but at this point I don't feel the need to have to impress anybody. I simply want people to consider the difference between self defense and the romanticization of taking another person's life.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:20 PM

23. Thanks for defintions!

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:25 PM

24. There's only ONE definition that should matter

GUN: weapon for killing people

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:15 AM

31. Wrong.

That's only true if you are arguing on a complete ban on gun possession, something that has no chance of passing in Congress and something SCOTUS has already struck down.

Even so, you are wrong in your assumption. A lot of guns are not designed with humans in mind. .22-250 rifles are exclusively for long range, small animal hunting/pest control. An Olympic target .22 is exclusively for Olympic-style target shooting. A .22 pistol has a few uses, but it was not designed for killing people--in fact it would be difficult to do so with one.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 08:52 AM

39. So if I shoot someone with one of those .22 guns, it would not kill?

Pretty sure I've read just the opposite, that a .22 round can have a very nasty effect on a person.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:22 AM

34. You should know by know that that diff does not compute as a problem to the other side. n/t

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:24 AM

35. keeping our gun porn straight



RL

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 04:12 AM

37. There are problems with your glossary

The most obvious is the acceptance of the term "automatic" as referring only to self loading weapons with no interrupter. In Europe where the term SLR for long guns and carbines is often preferred, such use of automatic for "fully automatic" rifle might be acceptable but leaves no over-arching term to describe all personal weapons operating on that automatic cycle.

I have 3 main concerns with the use of the term automatic only to refer to a weapon that fires without an interrupter.

The first is engineering; the mechanisms of semi-auto, full auto and burst fire weapons is the same bar 1 detail i.e. the presence or absence of an automatic interrupter. If the interrupter fails (very rare but it does happen) your semi auto or burst fire weapon turns into a machine gun.

The second is semantic; as I note above the use of automatic only for fully auto weapons leaves no term to describe all weapons using automatic cycle. Leaving automatic in it its original sense allows semi automatic (fire) (weapon), fully automatic (fire) (weapon) and burst fire (automatic). Note that the bracketed words are not always used but are implicit in the phrases. With your usage burst fire would have to be refered to as something ugly and confusing like peri automatic.

The third is historic: weapons producers have historically referred to all weapons with the automatic cycle as automatic - hence the usage of automatic pistol.

The other problems also stem from the false attribution of the word automatic; just look at your definitions of "machine gun", "sub-machine gun", "assault rifle", "assault weapon" and "battle rifle". It also leads to confusion about the term "selective fire"

Then there are the shotguns such as the Saiga 12 and the AA 12 ...

You might also want to include the word round as an alternative for cartridge.

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