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Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:19 PM

Yes folks, I can now clearly see it

Our 2A absolutists are not really aware of this...but we have crossed that cultural tipping point.

I do think that this is why we will see more of these desperate posts.

Will congress do anything right now? No, but tipping points have a way of becoming a new normal and a way of yes, pressuring even the most recalcitrant of politicians.

As to the NRA, given the majority of the members are not the radical paranoid, insurrectionist set...time for them to leave en masse, or stage a legal coup.

But I am seeing quite a bit of we are done talking, we want meaningful changes such as universal background checks, and yes, limits in magazine size and all that.

All that is left is desperate people trying to push their paranoia on the rest of us.

48 replies, 3478 views

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Arrow 48 replies Author Time Post
Reply Yes folks, I can now clearly see it (Original post)
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 OP
Turbineguy Dec 2012 #1
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #2
Warpy Dec 2012 #3
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #5
defacto7 Dec 2012 #16
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #4
riverbendviewgal Dec 2012 #6
oldbanjo Dec 2012 #28
riverbendviewgal Dec 2012 #35
PearliePoo2 Dec 2012 #7
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #11
polemic_realism Dec 2012 #8
japple Dec 2012 #20
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #25
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #34
Loudly Dec 2012 #36
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #37
Loudly Dec 2012 #38
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #39
Loudly Dec 2012 #40
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #41
Loudly Dec 2012 #42
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #43
Loudly Dec 2012 #44
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #45
Loudly Dec 2012 #46
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #47
Loudly Dec 2012 #48
CTyankee Dec 2012 #27
ananda Dec 2012 #9
Whovian Dec 2012 #10
Lifelong Protester Dec 2012 #12
Bonhomme Richard Dec 2012 #13
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #14
Historic NY Dec 2012 #15
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #17
oldbanjo Dec 2012 #29
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #32
Recursion Dec 2012 #18
defacto7 Dec 2012 #19
JoeyT Dec 2012 #21
morningfog Dec 2012 #26
Skittles Dec 2012 #22
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #23
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #24
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #31
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #33
oldbanjo Dec 2012 #30

Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:24 PM

1. Wayne LaPierre

makes $24 for everybody killed by a gun. He appears to get nothing for woundings and maimings. Are we going to break his ricebowl? Are we going to make it so that an honest man cannot earn an honest dollar? Hell no! We need more guns and more lethal ammo.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:26 PM

2. The reaction to his words

Is what gave me both hope and pause...and what told me, we are at tipping point.

People are less and less tolerant of the absolutist among us.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:26 PM

3. The people are always way ahead of the government

and Congress is rarely proactive, always reactive.

I suppose we'll see mass murder slowed down by gun regulations in another 20 years or so.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:28 PM

5. I am hopeful that it will take ten

It will be a long decade of looking for cover...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:31 PM

16. nadin, I think you are right in so many ways.

Your post is quite correct and longsighted. It will be a long decade. Let's hope and work for quicker resolutions and more reasonable people but the tide has been set at a high mark and there will be much more effort to change the status quo than the effort it took to get us into this mess.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:28 PM

4. Yes - This American - Probably Many More Americans Are Sick And Tired Of The Excuses

eom

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:33 PM

6. THe Biden panel should ask Israel Security to come and advise



NRA is always bringing them up....After reading this article posted on another DU link I realize Israel is tough on guns.

The article is mind blowing....and the NRA will explode when reading.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israel-rejects-us-gun-lobby-claims-security-18057515?page=2

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Response to riverbendviewgal (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 07:35 PM

28. If you go anywhere in Israel you will see high fenses

and a lot of guns, both Military and private security, I have never seen so many guns, They may not have AR15's but they do have AK47's which I would rather have than an AR. Israel protects their people the US Police do not protect you, that is not their job.

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Response to oldbanjo (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:53 PM

35. that is their army.

The Israeli citizens don't have them. They can not ..you did not read the article about Israel obviously.

You advocate that the US military be everywhere. You are probably.right. I would rather see that then those racist oath seeker militias be allowed unlimited unregistered guns and ammo.

I have friends who live in Israel. I know and they confirm this.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:37 PM

7. I sense it too.

Everyone I know is now talking about it. (and most of my friends, including myself, are gun owners)
Add to that the sickening slaughter today of VOLUNTEER firefighters on Christmas Eve...tipping point. Enough!

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Response to PearliePoo2 (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:41 PM

11. Yup, and we are gun owners too

We are just tired of this.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:38 PM

8. I'm suprised

there aren't any posts in this thread yet of some member listing his personal arsenal. I am getting so sick of these threads being hijacked and devolving into caliber discussions and circle jerking about the finer points of killing machines. Yes, this is a turning point. Once the stats are out there and get lodged in the minds of regular peaceful folks, this will bubble up to the top.

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Response to polemic_realism (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:38 PM

20. I take exception to your post and am proud to list my personal arsenal.

One 1892 Revolver mfg. by St. Etienne Armory in 1904, for which there is no available ammunition, and which my father brought back from WWII. I also inherited a Beretta, for which I have ammunition, but have never fired, don't know how to load, so I just keep it locked up in the cedar chest with the quilts and extra blankets. The only real weapons I can reliably depend on is a stout length of tree limb with a large knot on the end and a heavy flashlight. I do have a couple of long machetes, shovels, axes, pitchforks and other garden tools which I could use in an emergency.

Sorry to hijack this thread. Merry Christmas!!

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Response to polemic_realism (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 07:25 PM

25. I wouldn't do that...

...but until he became vice president, Joe Biden spoke often about the 9mm Beretta with custom grips that he concealed under his suit jacket. He may still, but since the Secret Service won't even let him drive his '67 Corvette, I assume he does not. Isn't he heading the Senate panel to pass strict gun legislation?

This gun lover also felt she had to discuss her favorite "killing machine", an 1860s era octagon barreled lever action Henry Rifle in her Rolling Stone interview earlier this year. It was considered the "assault rifle of the Civil War" in that it could fire as fast as one could work the lever until all 16 rounds in the tube magazine ran empty. In the same article she also pointed out how her 1st date with her future spouse was to an NRA sponsored shooting event, but who am I to judge? Maybe she's an otherwise a good liberal.



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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:45 PM

34. Obviously she's a psychopathic gun-nutter.

I'm sure there's DUers who would want her banned.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:34 PM

36. Everyone's consciousness can stand to be raised in some way.

 

Rachel is no exception.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #36)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:42 PM

37. So do you think she'd listen if you call her names?

How far do you think that discussion would go? Even gun control moderates aren't going to listen to the gun-banners rhetoric of insults, lies, name-calling, party purity, and inventing your own facts and language. The banners are the Democratic Party version of the teabaggers...zealots who aren't a positive influence to the conversation.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:48 PM

38. It sounds like you think gun violence will quiet down on its own.

 

I don't. We are at the point of no return unless we do an about face. Much like climate change, which tea baggers scoff at.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #38)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:54 PM

39. It already is.

Gun-related deaths have been on a decline for about 20 years. Now, would it be better if they declined at a faster rate? Absolutely. Bring on your suggestions that aren't feel-good ineffective legislation, that has some reasonable chance of passing both houses, and won't kill the Democratic election chances for the next 30 years.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #39)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 12:03 AM

40. Shut down the sale of new product.

 

Everyone's gun will suddenly be worth a lot more money.

That should take some of the political sting out of it.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #40)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 12:18 AM

41. You think that would pass both houses?

Do you also believe in unicorns?
Secondly, that does nothing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, who commit the vast majority of gun-related homicides (DoJ's own data).
Third, new guns have safety features old guns don't. Plus, old guns get worn and prone to malfunction, which is a safety consideration.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #41)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 12:23 AM

42. The ATF is under the Executive Branch.

 

That is muscle which needs to be exercised before it atrophies further.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #42)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 12:27 AM

43. Executive branch cannot unilaterally enact legislation or impose taxes.

There is nothing ATF can do other than enforce current laws on the books. That is our system of govt.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #43)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 12:32 AM

44. Litigation is expensive. And there are multiple avenues to pound the gun trade absolutely bloody.

 

ATF and IRS and EPA and FTC can all be brought to bear. And they should be.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #44)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 12:37 AM

45. Litigate what? They are following current law.

Any nuisance litigation by the govt will end up badly. Judge will not only rule for defendants, but order govt to pay their legal expenses.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #45)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 12:45 AM

46. Oh it's worth it, for the PR value alone.

 

The Obama Administration fighting the good fight for a more peaceful and pacified America.

I recommend it.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #46)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 12:53 AM

47. You think a frivolous lawsuit is good PR?

Wow. You really are living in a fantasyland. Hope you have a nice Christmas.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #47)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:01 AM

48. No no. Not the government suing. The "aggrieved" death merchant suing.

 

That's just the way to play it.

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Response to polemic_realism (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 07:32 PM

27. oh, yes, I am on some of those threads and when the gunners start their caliber discussions

I call them on it and tell them I know it is an NRA talking point and I am not having any of it. Then they disappear.

Keep at it, everyone! don't give up. hammer them! they will give up in the face of overwhelming opposition. I am seeing this now. We outnumber them by a lot...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:38 PM

9. Yes! No more questions, no more discussion, no more talk..

.. just action!

Gun control now!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:39 PM

10. K&R

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:00 PM

12. K & R

Had enough here, too.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:09 PM

13. What has happened is that the population has been shocked to attention to.....

the issue and now every firearm shooting is going be another stick on the fire.
It will take time but things will change. How it will change has a lot to do with how much the gun owners get involved with legitimate input. If they resist all discussion eventually the flashpoint will be reached and they will end up with nothing. A beast unleashed is a beast that's difficult to control.
But then who ever accused the right wing of thinking things through.
On another note, I will get a kind of catharsis because my band will be playing a benefit in Newtown this week. It feels like something.

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Response to Bonhomme Richard (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:10 PM

14. Hugs

Yes, yes you will.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:30 PM

15. What would make Congress act......

nothing after one of their own members nearly killed...would 435 spur them to action.

The Constitution is a living document, the Bill of Rights are amendments to the Constitution. We still add or subtract amendments as we see fit.........isn't it about time we make a choice.

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Response to Historic NY (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:33 PM

17. Well apart of streets, demands and all that

Anybody with a high NRA rating, regardless of party, needs to be voted out, at all levels of government. Like gun nuts inc, we must make this a single issue. You got an F or a D no problem. A C...a little more cautious, A or B, don't expect my vote.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 07:45 PM

29. We wouldn't be having the problems that

we're having in Congress, right now, if people used common sense when Voting. To Vote out someone because they are a NRA member would be suicide for this Country.

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Response to oldbanjo (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:24 PM

32. Right now it s dysfunctional

But the NRA is a paper tiger, really.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:33 PM

18. I certainly hope we write some new laws

And I hope we wind up with many fewer handguns than we currently have in private hands.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:34 PM

19. Enough!

n/t

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:45 PM

21. Only if we don't let it fade.

That's what the NRA are hoping for: That we'll get bored and go away. I don't think it's going to happen this time.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 07:28 PM

26. It won't happen. Because now, each new gun slaughter will be viewed through the new context.

We all know the senseless mass killings in what should be safe places will continue. Even the gun-fuckers who deny there is a gun problem know there will be more mas gun killings.

But, now, finally, these tragedies will not be viewed or discussed in a vacuum. The tipping point has arrived.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:56 PM

22. we sick of them hiding behind 2A in fear and ignorance

SICK OF IT

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 06:32 PM

23. Here maybe.

Personally, I'm in favor of closer scrutiny and even waiting periods for gun buyers. Id like to see an immediate end to flea market sales for instance, but I believe overstepping the invisible social line that separates sportsmen from armed criminals would be detrimental to the party. Unfortunately for large majority of idealists here calling for an outright ban, DU is not exactly a cross section of the country at large.

Coming from a union heavy part of the Rust Belt that consistently votes two to one for democrats, I can tell you first hand that much of the population here owns at least one firearm or enjoys hunting. Many of those otherwise socially liberal blue collar voters don't want the government to restrict their access to guns, and may even change political party to protect what they perceive as their constitutional right. I know some who already have because of NRA propaganda that portrays democrats as 100% anti-gun. Can we as a political party afford to advance that canard for them?

The NRA and the republican party have had much success in making gun ownership a partisan issue, but I don't believe it is. A good number of democrats do indeed own firearms, and to push them away by contributing to the republican strategy of identifying democratic politicians as "gun grabbers" would be done at the party's own peril. Not every republican owns a gun, and few democrats want to turn in their gun for scrap metal. I believe Obama won the election in part because the republicans have instituted a purity test on a number of issues that has no room for those who don't fit the narrow confines of their mold. Common sense should dictate that following suit in the opposite direction will result in tipping the scale back in their favor.

The democratic party has always been a big tent that unconditionally accepts the pro-lifers, gun owners, and the fiscally responsible alike, and efforts to thin our ranks through a litmus test on firearms would likely reward the GOP's efforts with a permanent Republican led White House. Gun laws weren't softened in a week, and reinstating sensible regulations won't happen that quickly either.

I don't want to sound "desperate", but I've become spoiled by a pro-labor racially diverse White House, and I don't want to see that unwound over strict intolerance on this one issue. Moderation and a certain level of patience is always key to workable solutions. I'm glad we're now headed that way, but don't plan on strapping a brick to the gas pedal or we'll certainly wreck the car long before we get there.

I predict Obama will upset many here in the end by doing what they consider too little, but he's aware of the dire consequences of political overreach, and he knows almost precisely how many of his democratic supporters own guns. Still, he hears the deafening cries for action, and knows something must be done.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 06:39 PM

24. Alas I am not talking of the other fringe either

(The lets ban all guns club)

But you know what? I can play the single issue as well as the NRA types...if any candidate has an A or B from the NRA, they can lose my vote.

What Obama will do, if he has any balls, will upset the NRA. See closing the gun show loophole. I am sure your neighbors will agree, cause the majority do.

Reducing the size of magazines.

After the word does not end ( and a few more horrors, we are averaging two a month now) perhaps gun registration.

Taking guns away...that ain't gonna happen

Now what worries me is second A absolutists who will take the sedition language to the logical step and march in column of two to the front lines.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:00 PM

31. Anything at all will upset the NRA.

But after they spent the last five years telling members that Obama's jack booted thugs are going to bust in their doors and haul them off to a FEMA camp where they'll spend the remainder of their lives slaving away making curly light bulbs, what else do they have? They've already drawn horns and a spiked tail on him for their members. LaPierre's rare presser indicates how worried he is about public sentiment and it's affect on future fund raising.

The republicans have already bought full stock in this hype and hate his guts, I just don't want to lose anymore of the good blue collar democrats who don't belong to the NRA over this. I also don't want to play into LaPierre's hands by getting them to join the organization out of overwrought and needless fear.

I don't dread for an armed revolt over sensible gun control laws unless someone mentions any kind of mandatory collection, however. I agree with your stated wish list of regulations.

Unfortunately, we lost a great pro-labor governor here in Ohio when Kasich got the full endorsement of the NRA in 2010. Ted Strickland had a four star rating from the Buckeye Gun Owners Assn, but the NRA supported the republican, who as a congressman in the '90s helped write the assault rifle ban. Strickland was also a congressman at the same time and voted against it (for better or worse). It just proves that under Wayne LaPierre, the NRA is no longer simply a gun advocacy PAC, but an effective arm of the GOP. Needless to say, I despise and distrust the man and his motives.

I deeply appreciate your willingness to hear what I consider moderation on the issue. In ten years I've never had anyone put me on their ignore list. This week alone I'm up to 14 and I obviously said nothing that supported the NRA or it's slithering leader.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:28 PM

33. Yeah, bit to the NRA even things like smart guns

Which incidentally could have stopped Lanza, are anathema. Closing the gun show loophole is also anathema. So to a point it fals to you and me.

Look, I am a gun owner, I have also seen what a .223 can do to a child's body, ain't pretty. So when my neighbor went on the gasp, horror, of them taking them guns. I asked him if it was ok to have cons own guns? 'Cause the NRA is ok with that?

We need to take charge of the conversation in large part, and make the NRA persona non grata, period.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 07:54 PM

30. The best comments I've seen on this site.

You are correct you must use common sense are we will be worst off then we are with this Congress that is full of unqualified people because of the same kind of stupidity.

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