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Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:10 AM

OK, how about now, gun folks?

How many deaths are NOT ok?

At what number of gun deaths would you be willing to give up your damn weapons in the interest of public safety?

How many lives is it worth to you to maintain the possibility of shooting someone for a "just" cause? How many dead kids?

Give us a round number. Thanks.

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Arrow 135 replies Author Time Post
Reply OK, how about now, gun folks? (Original post)
Robb Dec 2012 OP
Recursion Dec 2012 #1
Robb Dec 2012 #4
Recursion Dec 2012 #10
Robb Dec 2012 #13
Recursion Dec 2012 #14
bongbong Dec 2012 #34
Recursion Dec 2012 #37
bongbong Dec 2012 #41
Recursion Dec 2012 #44
bongbong Dec 2012 #46
Recursion Dec 2012 #50
Bake Dec 2012 #67
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #73
CTyankee Dec 2012 #23
Recursion Dec 2012 #25
CTyankee Dec 2012 #29
Recursion Dec 2012 #31
CTyankee Dec 2012 #90
Recursion Dec 2012 #94
CTyankee Dec 2012 #98
Recursion Dec 2012 #113
CTyankee Dec 2012 #116
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #21
qkvhj Dec 2012 #68
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #80
graham4anything Dec 2012 #126
slackmaster Dec 2012 #2
Robb Dec 2012 #7
slackmaster Dec 2012 #19
99Forever Dec 2012 #32
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #75
Robb Dec 2012 #77
Comatose Sphagetti Dec 2012 #15
slackmaster Dec 2012 #18
former-republican Dec 2012 #3
Robb Dec 2012 #5
former-republican Dec 2012 #9
Robb Dec 2012 #16
former-republican Dec 2012 #17
ellisonz Dec 2012 #65
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #60
Jenoch Dec 2012 #110
morningfog Dec 2012 #33
flvegan Dec 2012 #6
Robb Dec 2012 #8
flvegan Dec 2012 #12
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #42
theKed Dec 2012 #62
monmouth3 Dec 2012 #11
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #40
mzmolly Dec 2012 #58
mzmolly Dec 2012 #54
flvegan Dec 2012 #69
mzmolly Dec 2012 #79
flvegan Dec 2012 #83
mzmolly Dec 2012 #112
flvegan Dec 2012 #119
mzmolly Dec 2012 #120
flvegan Dec 2012 #121
Bonobo Dec 2012 #97
flvegan Dec 2012 #101
Bonobo Dec 2012 #104
flvegan Dec 2012 #105
Bonobo Dec 2012 #107
flvegan Dec 2012 #109
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #122
flvegan Dec 2012 #133
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #124
flvegan Dec 2012 #134
yewberry Dec 2012 #125
flvegan Dec 2012 #131
dkf Dec 2012 #20
SheilaT Dec 2012 #22
CTyankee Dec 2012 #24
LineLineReply .
former-republican Dec 2012 #26
ellisonz Dec 2012 #66
stevenleser Dec 2012 #89
LAGC Dec 2012 #108
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #27
Jenoch Dec 2012 #118
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #123
Recursion Dec 2012 #38
Pab Sungenis Dec 2012 #53
Recursion Dec 2012 #56
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #28
laundry_queen Dec 2012 #86
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #87
stevenleser Dec 2012 #91
samsingh Dec 2012 #30
LP2K12 Dec 2012 #114
samsingh Dec 2012 #117
morningfog Dec 2012 #35
Logical Dec 2012 #36
morningfog Dec 2012 #49
Logical Dec 2012 #64
theKed Dec 2012 #63
hack89 Dec 2012 #39
Robb Dec 2012 #43
hack89 Dec 2012 #48
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #45
hack89 Dec 2012 #47
Recursion Dec 2012 #51
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #70
Recursion Dec 2012 #72
quakerboy Dec 2012 #128
JI7 Dec 2012 #92
hack89 Dec 2012 #95
Hoyt Dec 2012 #52
wtmusic Dec 2012 #135
Coyote_Tan Dec 2012 #55
happy xenusmas eve Dec 2012 #57
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #81
RedCappedBandit Dec 2012 #106
SummerSnow Dec 2012 #59
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #61
OneMoreDemocrat Dec 2012 #71
jal777 Dec 2012 #74
samsingh Dec 2012 #76
baldguy Dec 2012 #78
Whovian Dec 2012 #82
Berserker Dec 2012 #84
Whovian Dec 2012 #85
morningfog Dec 2012 #93
CTyankee Dec 2012 #88
hack89 Dec 2012 #96
CTyankee Dec 2012 #99
hack89 Dec 2012 #100
CTyankee Dec 2012 #102
hack89 Dec 2012 #103
CTyankee Dec 2012 #115
Bucky Dec 2012 #111
Skittles Dec 2012 #127
Robb Dec 2012 #129
closeupready Dec 2012 #130
Taverner Dec 2012 #132

Response to Robb (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:17 AM

1. It's never been about insufficient deaths

It's been about not believing that banning guns will be more effective at actually getting rid of them than banning drugs is or banning alcohol was.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:23 AM

4. You're going to sit there with a straight face and say banning guns won't save a single life?

Not one?

OK, maybe one. Two? Ten? A hundred?

Again: how many deaths are acceptable to you?

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Response to Robb (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:30 AM

10. Any prohibition regime is going to kill people

Prohibiting alcohol and drugs have been fiascos that cost more lives than they intended to save. I sincerely believe prohibiting guns would be the same. You're going to have to increase ATF manpower to significantly larger than the DEA currently is. You're going to have one more reason now to arrest and imprison minorities (this law, like every other law, will be abusively applied in a discriminatory manner). You're going to suddenly empower gunrunners (currently a fairly small and specifically targeted group) and make them the equivalent of the people running pot and cocaine. That means more turf wars on the streets at the retail level. As the price of illegal handguns will skyrocket, these gunrunners will become very rich. It would be the 1990s all over again, but with guns instead of cocaine.

So, no, I don't think it will save lives; I think it will kill a lot of people.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:36 AM

13. False equivalency.

Unless you actually sweat and twitch when without a firearm, the comparison isn't valid.

How do the gunrunners fare in countries where guns are heavily regulated?

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Response to Robb (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:37 AM

14. Who sweats and twitches without marijuana?

How do the gunrunners fare in countries where guns are heavily regulated?

It varies greatly by country. We already know how booze and drug runners fare in the US.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #14)


Response to bongbong (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:24 PM

37. Huh? Are you saying the War on Drugs only causes 10 to 20 deaths?

Now it's my turn to

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Response to Recursion (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:41 PM

41. Typical reading comprehension FAIL for the Delicate Flowers

 

No, gun-obsessed Delicate Flower. Deaths due to GUNS - your Precious - in other countries.

Don't be scared of the facts, Flower!

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Response to bongbong (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:54 PM

44. When you write unclearly, Delicate Flower

It can be easy for people to misread you

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Response to Recursion (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:59 PM

46. LOL

 

I'm not a Delicate Flower. I don't need a gun to walk around in public. I'm not a coward when facing everyday life.



And, my point stands, and your crazy post about "we don't know how banning guns would affect deaths" which I responded to, falls.

NRA Talking Points don't work, you know?

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Response to bongbong (Reply #46)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 01:07 PM

50. The US and Australia have had the exact same drop in gun deaths since 1996

Australia bought back semi-automatic rifles (though the actual gun ownership rate in Australia today is slightly higher than it was in 1995). The US didn't. We both saw gun deaths fall by about 60%.

You were saying?

(Also, I don't own a gun, so I'm not sure why you're calling me "Delicate Flower", if that's what you mean by it.)

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Response to bongbong (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 02:24 PM

67. Your name-calling is part of the problem.

Calling people "gun nuts," "Delicate Flowers" etc. doesn't make your argument any better, it just pisses off the people you're insulting and creates instant defensiveness.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 02:41 PM

73. Bongbong cares not a wit about that. As long as s/he can call names and accuse anyone that disagrees

an NRA supporter or right-winger or gun nut or delicate flower....




People like this fail to see that they are large part of the problem of why we cannot have rational conversations about this subject.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:07 PM

23. well, just lookie here, recursion!

a little message from our friends "down under"

http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

You're welcome!

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:10 PM

25. And their drug situation is much better than ours, too

They've managed to do drug interdiction with a level of sense and maturity we have yet to show on anything.

If you magically replaced US law enforcement with Australian, I'd be all ears. As it is, we're stuck with the law enforcement that exists in the US.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:15 PM

29. no excuses. We fought wars in two different parts of the world and won.

We defeated the Soviet Empire. We put the first human on the moon.

Some of us need to stop whining that we "can't do anything."

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:18 PM

31. We've also epicly failed at most of our attempts to keep US citizens from getting stuff they want

I'm not saying "we can't do anything". I'm saying "we can't do that".

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Response to Recursion (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 01:04 PM

90. from the horse's mouth, so to speak, who worked on the Australian ban

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #90)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 08:19 PM

94. We've had the same reduction in gun violence they have over the same period

And Australia's gun ownership rate is higher today than it was in 1995.

Not everything is as easy as we wish it were.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #94)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 10:28 PM

98. Let us look try again with snopes

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #98)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 07:04 AM

113. Cool how snopes doesn't address either claim

The gun ownership rate in AU is higher today than in 1995.

The drop in gun violence in the US was larger than the drop in AU

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Response to Recursion (Reply #113)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 08:51 AM

116. the data does speak to your first statement

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Response to Robb (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:45 AM

21. Well, if we could magically make all guns disappear, lives would be saved.

But banning guns won't make them all disappear.

I'm afraid that recursion makes a valid case in comparing prohibition and the war on drugs with what we could expect to happen with attempts to make guns disappear.

The first thing to happen as such attempts are made will be a run on gun and ammo purchases.

And, sadly, that's already happening in advance of any legislative action.

...

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Response to Robb (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 02:31 PM

68. OK lets extend that to just one more legal product.

 

Banning cars and trucks would save a bunch more lives and they are not protected in the bill of rights. And yes like it or not the courts have already made that decision.
Back to automobiles they kill many, many, more people each year in this country than guns do.

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Response to qkvhj (Reply #68)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:21 PM

80. Oh, please, Mr. LaPiere? Is that you?



RL

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Response to Recursion (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:22 AM

126. Get a vaccine for an illness...then it also prevents multitudes from getting sick going forward

 

Because the vaccine cannot take hold and dies off quicker if enough people have it, 100% is not needed to stop it.

So a little prick is a good thing to endure for the good of mankind

same thing with a gun.

Stopping even one person from getting one, can stop 20 kids from dying needlessly

It is not a 1 to 1 proposition

you must agree the NRA soundbytes from their million dollar suits gets so freakin' boring and transparent

why do people support the #1 lobby group in the world, yet then say they hate unions?

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Response to Robb (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:22 AM

2. It's a false dilemma, Robb.

 

Me giving up all of my weapons wouldn't increase public safety one iota.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:26 AM

7. No, it won't.

Everyone doing it is not the same as you doing it.

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Response to Robb (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:40 AM

19. OK, you are firmly in the realm of things that are simply not going to happen, ever

 

...because "everyone" includes violent people who don't obey laws.

Have a great Christmas, BTW!

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:18 PM

32. "Cold, dead fingers.."

... meet prybar.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 02:43 PM

75. Are you advocating for the killing of anyone that would refuse to turn in their gun?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #75)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 03:38 PM

77. I thought shooting dangerous criminals was OK.

Inconsistent message you've got there.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:37 AM

15. So, you're telling me

that the absence of semi-autos won't increase public safety at all?

Please, hand me that suitcase nuke. What?, suitcase nuke's are unavailable?

Increased public safety.

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Response to Comatose Sphagetti (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:39 AM

18. That's not in any way responsive to what I wrote

 

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Response to Robb (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:23 AM

3. Did you destroy your guns yet?

 

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Response to former-republican (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:25 AM

5. They are broken down.

I've spoken to an officer who will take them into evidence the day after Christmas; they will be destroyed if I do not reclaim them.

I do not intend to reclaim them.

Do you have a number of deaths that is acceptable?

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Response to Robb (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:30 AM

9. Take them into evidence?

 

Just destroy them with a hammer and ban saw posting a video .

You said you have some high end expensive 1911's correct?

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Response to former-republican (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:37 AM

16. You want me to film your snuff gun porn for you?

That's almost funny.

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Response to Robb (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:39 AM

17. yep , make a statement like the guy that tore up his NRA membership card in a video

 

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Response to former-republican (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 01:53 PM

65. ...

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Response to Robb (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 01:29 PM

60. Why not? Talk is cheap, especially from "antigun" gunowners.

Another one of you lot made a great noise here about getting rid of a relative's guns
Turns out, he sold them to a licensed dealer.

He has yet to explain how this prevented their future misuse...

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Response to former-republican (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:01 AM

110. If he has 1911s,

I doubt whatever cop he gives them to will have them destroyed. They'll probanbly go homw with him.

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Response to former-republican (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:19 PM

33. I surrendered mine to a cop this week. It was liberating.

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Response to Robb (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:26 AM

6. Your fork is responsible for more deaths than my guns. n/t

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Response to flvegan (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:26 AM

8. The issue isn't your guns. It's all our guns.

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Response to Robb (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:35 AM

12. Feel free

to expand my comment thusly, then. Face it, we live in a violent society. Just some forms of violence are far more acceptable than others. In folks' favor, at least the line gets drawn somewhere I guess.

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Response to flvegan (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:42 PM

42. That is an excellent point

And, I am borrowing it.

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Response to flvegan (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 01:37 PM

62. Seriously?

You're going to go with the "meh, what can you do?" defense?

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Response to flvegan (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:34 AM

11. Bwahahahaha..good one..

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Response to flvegan (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:41 PM

40. This

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 01:25 PM

58. is

absurd.

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Response to flvegan (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 01:16 PM

54. How many people can I kill with my fork today?

n/t

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Response to mzmolly (Reply #54)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 02:32 PM

69. What's absurd

is how shallow too many folks think these days.

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Response to flvegan (Reply #69)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:18 PM

79. No. Your comparison between

Last edited Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:10 AM - Edit history (1)

forks and automatic weapons.

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Response to mzmolly (Reply #79)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:48 PM

83. Kid pool thinking, then.

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Response to flvegan (Reply #83)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:09 AM

112. Another bizarre,

unrelated comment.

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Response to mzmolly (Reply #112)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 12:35 AM

119. Thank the gods it's shallow there.

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Response to flvegan (Reply #119)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 03:15 PM

120. Counting your blessings,

I see?

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Response to mzmolly (Reply #120)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 12:58 AM

121. Nonsense is fun, I guess.

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Response to flvegan (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 09:51 PM

97. We ate a delicious chicken yesterday.

You really want to stake the claim that it is as immoral to eat a chicken as it is to take a human life?

Seriously?

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #97)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 10:56 PM

101. Who are you

to state what's moral? Sort of at a self advantage, don't you think to stake the claim you'd like to, eh? And not put this all on me, just making a point.

But then, some animals are more equal than others. I read that somewhere.

But hey, death is more on your hands than mine today. Even with my guns.

Merry Christmas.

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Response to flvegan (Reply #101)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 11:35 PM

104. You are the one that is equating eating a slice of ham with a dead child.

Animals consuming animals, animals consuming plants, plants consuming animals, fungus consuming both, bacteria consuming all of the above... it's the circle of life that I am joyfully a part of. And so are you.

You may not feel that the wheat you eat or the fruit you pluck from the tree before it is allowed to procreate or reach its natural end is the same as a chicken or a pig, but in the grand scheme, its life is equal I am pretty sure.

Ironic that you accuse others of willy nilly picking one life over another when you are a vegetable killer and rationalize it. I suppose if it is ALL about your survival, it is understandable though.

But when we talk about guns and killing of other humans, fivegan, we really are in another universe of morality -and your inappropriate use of this issue to push your vegetarian agenda is somewhat sillier than it is offensive so I will not get too overheated about it.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #104)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 11:48 PM

105. Every time you and I have this dance, I lead.

Funny that.

I don't equate one with another, I make a point. You justify one over another. "Vegetable killer" and then all about my survival. But then it's my agenda. Reality can get fucked.

A "circle of life" that you are "joyfully a part of"...violence apologist. Nothing more, nothing less. Hope that chicken was tasty. My circle of life is far less violent than yours, even as a gun owner. What?

But then as I recall, whaling was cool with you.

"...of other humans" is where you lose. Yes, we are in another universe of morality. Join me there, sometime. It's mind expanding to stop thinking about just one's self. No veg agenda to push, a non-violence agenda to push. Non-violence, fucking imagine that?

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Response to flvegan (Reply #105)

Tue Dec 25, 2012, 11:56 PM

107. I don't see you as leading. I state my opinions clearly.

And I do not think that killing a chicken is "violence" in the same sense that killing a human, gorilla or even a whale is.

You think fishing is violence, killing a chicken is violence.

And speaking of violence and whaling, you advocate violence ALL THE FUCKING TIME. So who is non-violent? Surely not you so don't EVEN try that song and dance with me.

Is killing a bug violence? What about a mosquito? Getting tougher and tougher, isn't it? But as you drill down, you begin to see that your justifications are just that. As mine are.

You say you are non-violence but are defending gun ownership? That is fucking nuts, man. What are you gonna do with your gun, chop broccoli with it?

If you think that every human over the last half million years was less moral than YOU because they ate flesh, I'd say you really are deluding yourself.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #107)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:17 AM

109. No, you don't.

Think, that is. Look up violence. The delusion is yours and always has been.

Fishing is violence as is killing a chicken. Your self-serving definitions aside. Sea Shepherd is heading back out against your friends. We can talk more about it later.

Nothing violent about owning a gun. Your fork? Inaction v action. *shudder* Good luck with that. LOL!

Still leading.

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Response to flvegan (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:25 AM

122. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!

Bad one. I mean, really, what an incredibly stupid comment.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #122)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 01:09 AM

133. Prove it. n/t

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Response to flvegan (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:27 AM

124. Forks have other uses.

To nourish people. Guns do NOT have other uses. What an incredibly stupid false equivalency.

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