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Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:33 AM

THE TRUTH ABOUT "CHRISTMAS": The season was CO-OPTED by the Christians. Let me explain:

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by aikoaiko (a host of the General Discussion forum).

The next time some bible thumper starts up with all this CRAP about "the war on Christmas" and "keeping Christ in Christmas" and all the rest of their delusional NONSENSE, look them right in the face and say, "You do not know history, and you do not know what you are talking about. The Christians CO-OPTED this holiday season." Then you say, the holiday season and the vast majority of its traditions such as lighting trees, lights in general, feasts, parties, gifts, etc., existed for a llllllllllllllllllllllong time BEFORE the birth of Christ and were SECULAR and PAGAN. It was all about worshiping the sun at the time of the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere. Europeans held feasts and festivals, burned yule logs, decorated evergreens, and exchanged gifts. Christ would not have been born in late December. If anything it would have been sometime in October or in the spring according to the work traditions of shepherds. It was around the third century AD that the Christians under papal order began melding their recognition of the birth of Christ with the solstice celebrations out of fear of threat of the popularity of the MUCH older secular pagan traditions.

Indeed, even in America the puritans would only attend church at Christmastime because they knew the history and considered all the other celebrations as heathen paganism.

So the next time that bible thumper starts up about Christmas and keeping Christ in it, tell him/her it is a LOAD OF CRAP and that what they are really doing THEMSELVES with their trees, wreaths, candles, yule logs, dinners, parties, and lights is celebrating THE WINTER SOLSTICE which is PAGAN and SECULAR. In fact, quote Jeremiah 10:2-5 "Learn not the way of the heathen. Their customs are vain, for one cuts trees out of the forest. They deck it with silver and gold."

So FELLOW "HEATHENS," enjoy your SOLSTICE celebration of lights, trees, wreaths, yule logs, baked goods and candy, dinners, drinking, parties, and presents.

I sure as to hell am !

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Reply THE TRUTH ABOUT "CHRISTMAS": The season was CO-OPTED by the Christians. Let me explain: (Original post)
RBInMaine Dec 2012 OP
byeya Dec 2012 #1
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #2
RBInMaine Dec 2012 #5
Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #6
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #7
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #19
Viva_La_Revolution Dec 2012 #25
Bluenorthwest Dec 2012 #26
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #31
treestar Dec 2012 #36
KurtNYC Dec 2012 #11
SammyWinstonJack Dec 2012 #14
RBInMaine Dec 2012 #15
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #20
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #22
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #23
Viva_La_Revolution Dec 2012 #27
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #29
Viva_La_Revolution Dec 2012 #35
dbackjon Dec 2012 #39
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #40
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #21
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #24
Bluenorthwest Dec 2012 #28
Arkansas Granny Dec 2012 #3
RBInMaine Dec 2012 #17
HappyMe Dec 2012 #4
BlueJazz Dec 2012 #8
rug Dec 2012 #9
RBInMaine Dec 2012 #12
rug Dec 2012 #18
orwell Dec 2012 #10
Bonobo Dec 2012 #13
Brickbat Dec 2012 #16
Festivito Dec 2012 #30
byeya Dec 2012 #32
JNelson6563 Dec 2012 #33
LanternWaste Dec 2012 #34
truebluegreen Dec 2012 #37
Bohunk68 Dec 2012 #38
Igel Dec 2012 #41
aikoaiko Dec 2012 #42

Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:37 AM

1. Yes, this is what I have found out to be true also. Happy Solstice everyone!

 

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:38 AM

2. I am not a Christian, but i find your post offensive, especially on Christmas Eve. nt

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:40 AM

5. No, this is the PERFECT time. I am offended by you being offended by the TRUTH.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:41 AM

6. Why?

Everything written is true.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:42 AM

7. You're not a Christian, but you find the OP's post offensive? Why? nt.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:03 AM

19. Because this is the time to be happy and celebrate with our loved ones

Not the time to dissect if Christianity stole Christmas from Paganism. I believe in respecting all religions . if Pagans call Christmas Yule , that's fine, to each their own. But today should be about happiness and accepting each other, not about judgements.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:20 AM

25. some of us are able to do both

Celebrate with family, but also understand the truth. Why do you say the truth offends you?
and tomorrow is the day, not today.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:21 AM

26. If it should be about accepting one another, why are so many religious people not accepting of

gay people, or of other religions? I mean there are 'religious wars' and 'religious terrorists' and of course if it were not for religious people, gay people would have equal rights.
So my message to the faith folk is that if they were to practice what they so casually preach to others, they might be more popular. Accepting each other, not organizing and spending millions to oppose the other.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:29 AM

31. The OP is just basic world history about the ebb and flow of various cultures and religions...

...I seriously don't see where the opinions or thoughts of another DU poster should disturb anyone at this time of year.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:03 AM

36. that was the point!

that it belongs not just to Christians. Right wing Christians are the ones who opened the issue being judgmental about it.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:49 AM

11. if that was meant to be ironic and funny

kudos 2 U.

if not, then kudos to the papacy.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:52 AM

14. ...

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:52 AM

15. I did soften a bit of the language, but as Dickens wrote, TRUTH LIVES. This post is a GIFT to those

who value TRUTH.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:06 AM

20. You could've held posting that "truth" at least few days after Christmas.

We've gone through enough madness and negativity lately , we don't need MORE things dividing us.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:11 AM

22. The only one making this divisive seems to be you.

Facts are facts, history is history.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:16 AM

23. We have dealt with enough lately, why not just celebrate,

Live and let live? Like I said, I'm not Christian, but I can only imagine how someone who actually takes Christmas seriously feels about this.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:24 AM

27. You have a mouse in your pocket?

you say 'we', but you're the only one who seems annoyed.

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Response to Viva_La_Revolution (Reply #27)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:26 AM

29. Whatever, carry on.

No wonder there is so much hate between people nowadays. It's all about DIFFERENCES rather what we have in common. Enjoy your Yule, sorry the Christians " stole it " from you.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:01 AM

35. I never said I wasn't a Christian.

I've only interacted with you in two threads, and in both you tell me I was saying things I didn't.
You REALLY need to work on your reading skills.


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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:51 AM

39. You should direct your anger to the Christians that are ready to fight over this at the drop of a

"Happy Holidays"

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #39)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:53 AM

40. So far i havent met any who got upset when i wished them Happy Holidays. nt

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:08 AM

21. Yes, the truth is quite offensive.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:19 AM

24. Today is not about " this was my holiday, you stole it from me "

Today is about celebrating life and hapiness and our loved ones. Enough drawing lines in the sand, we are all the same.

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:26 AM

28. So when the religious draw a line in the sand like Prop 8....they say 'you are not like us, we are

superior, Sanctified'. The Vitters, General and Mrs Petraeus, John Ensign, Newt Gingrich-all Sanctified by God!
So my favorite religious saying has to do with those who preach about the gay speck in my eye while they have a giant log in their own.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:39 AM

3. You realize, don't you, that truth like that

could get me burned at the stake. Now, would that be a pagan or christian ceremony?

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:58 AM

17. You mean like the CHRISTIAN Spanish Inquisition? Or the CHRISTIAN Crusades?

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:39 AM

4. Okay.

Merry Christmas!

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:46 AM

8. I believe you are wrong. I'm pretty sure the ancients enjoyed the strong aluminum pole and..

...the "Feats of Strength" followed by the bitching out of their fellow men, telling them how disappointed they were with the whole lot...

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:46 AM

9. If Christmas was about trees you'd be right. It's not.

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Response to rug (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:51 AM

12. You don't get it. The SEASON is about an ARRAY of traditions CO-OPTED by "Christmas." Trees are

PART of it. Kindly see the ENTIRE picture.

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Response to RBInMaine (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:00 AM

18. I do get it. It's a significant religious holiday that's been adapted around the world.

So what.

Your post has a distinctive northern European bent. The Philippines has Simbang Gabi. China has Dun Che Lao Ren. Not a Druid in sight.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:47 AM

10. Festivus...

...for the rest of us!

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:51 AM

13. And Santa is Odin!

8 reindeers for Odin's 8-hooved steed, Sleipnir. Etc.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:54 AM

16. I know someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas because it's too pagan.

She belongs to some kind of church that tries to get back to "Original Christianity."

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:27 AM

30. Only when trying to fight bullying with more bullying.

And, careful, fighting fire with fire is as dangerous as the metaphor implies.

The idea that a pagan holiday is adapted elsewhere, and a birthday moved, is not necessarily stealing, crap, delusional, and or nonsense. Nor are many rules of the Old Testament applicable to Christianity.

Bullying people with some long-winded rant that is not well based is not going to help the festivities.

I hope you and those around you manage to have a good times this season.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:38 AM

32. Now the Easter Bunny is definately Christian. I draw the line at the Easter Bunny!

 

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:40 AM

33. All those "offended" are hilarious!

True history is offensive to some, I guess.

Yes, most of Christendom's traditions are co-opted from other cultures/belief systems.

In spite of it all I greatly enjoy the holiday and spend it indulging in a few luxuries with loved one that I wouldn't normally splurge for.

I hope you and yours have a lovely holiday!



Julie

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:44 AM

34. You appear to mistake the conscious decision of co-opting a thing

You appear to mistake the conscious decision of co-opting a thing, with the wholly normal process of historical and social acculturation-- a process that spans all cultures which meets, and had been happening since the dawn if humanity--- not merely with religion, but with traditions, songs, arts, politics, food, etc.

I do however, realize that as this historical process doesn't fit the agenda of many in the here and now, it is simply ignored.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:34 AM

37. The Romans made conscious decisions to co-opt other religions ALL THE TIME

in order to make their Empire more palatable and to further their own ends. That's how we got the Bible in its current form.

That's how a religion based on the social-reformer Jesus morphed into the authoritarian Church.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:43 AM

38. The facts, as you have recounted

them are correct. The biggest factor was probably that early Christianity was in a struggle with Mithraism, whose biggest celebration was on the 25th, not the solstice. It had to do with the birth of Mithra. Constantine was heavily influenced by his mother, Helena, who was a Christian. Many of his subsequent actions were done at her bequest. She was responsible for the Church of the Nativity in Palestine/Israel and the subsequent establishment of retreats in Sinai. Interesting woman. It is also quite true that the Puritans regarded the celebration as a pagan holiday. The Mormons regard April 6th as the probable date of birth. They are not far off, I would imagine. Having raised sheep, that would seem more logical to me.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:56 AM

41. They repurposed it.

Just like those who argue that Thanksgiving is "about feeling grateful" (but to nobody in particular).

My atheist mother was always into Xmas because it was intended, she believed, to be a time for family to get together. Most kids like it because it's a festival of getting stuff.

What's different about Xmas, however, is that it's not pagan tradition. Because Xianity spread and adopted a variety of local traditions (not just traditions, but also minor deities--it's called "syncretism") there are a lot of pagan traditions. Then, because Xianity was widespread and united, a lot of those traditions, esp. in the last few hundred years, have spread.

So my nuclear family when I was a kid had some later Italian and Irish traditions, some German and Scandinavian traditions, plus the core Mediterranean traditions.


As for being Mithraic, that's a nice guess. What we know about the mystery religion would probably fit in a rather thin pamphlet, but only if we include the full front matter and copious footnotes and index in 32-point type. What was said much later about outsiders would fill a small book. And what we have extrpolated for degrees and polemic would fill a bookshelf.

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Response to RBInMaine (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:58 AM

42. Locking.



A general consensus of hosts believe this should be locked because religion posts are prohibited in GD, but that it might be reposted in the Religion group.

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