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Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:55 PM

 

Remember when Republicans were Rational? Remember when they weren't Selfish Greedy Lying Sociopaths?

Frankly, me neither, but there was a time when they cared about people too, they weren't just shamelessly mean jackasses.

Eisenhower strengthened Social Security and spoke highly of it often...

This Administration's strong support of the social security program was demonstrated by the broad expansion and improvements enacted in 1954 at my recommendation. The 1954 Amendments, which extended coverage of the program to millions of additional persons and included higher benefits for all who were then or who would become beneficiaries, have had a major impact in bringing greater security to our people.













It wasn't even all that long ago. Maybe if we remind those Republicans in our lives, that they once had a sense of decency, they will remember the portion of their brain that is still sane and perhaps learn to exercise it. There's a good person in those (some of those)nut jobs somewhere, maybe we can wake them up to what they once were...

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Reply Remember when Republicans were Rational? Remember when they weren't Selfish Greedy Lying Sociopaths? (Original post)
No Compromise Dec 2012 OP
JaneyVee Dec 2012 #1
InsultComicDog Dec 2012 #8
InsultComicDog Dec 2012 #9
pangaia Dec 2012 #31
SummerSnow Dec 2012 #55
Arkansas Granny Dec 2012 #58
ArcticFox Dec 2012 #45
atreides1 Dec 2012 #11
yesphan Dec 2012 #2
elleng Dec 2012 #3
Eric the Reddish Dec 2012 #7
Lugnut Dec 2012 #51
elleng Dec 2012 #52
TheCowsCameHome Dec 2012 #4
OffWithTheirHeads Dec 2012 #5
thebard77 Dec 2012 #50
dimbear Dec 2012 #6
Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2012 #10
ReRe Dec 2012 #19
socialindependocrat Dec 2012 #12
samsingh Dec 2012 #13
Democrats_win Dec 2012 #14
LiberalElite Dec 2012 #15
MissMarple Dec 2012 #16
Botany Dec 2012 #17
femmocrat Dec 2012 #24
HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #18
cascadiance Dec 2012 #35
HarveyDarkey Dec 2012 #37
cascadiance Dec 2012 #41
HarveyDarkey Dec 2012 #44
doc03 Dec 2012 #20
ReRe Dec 2012 #21
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #22
cascadiance Dec 2012 #39
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #23
cascadiance Dec 2012 #40
cascadiance Dec 2012 #25
DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #26
Zorra Dec 2012 #27
HarveyDarkey Dec 2012 #38
lastlib Dec 2012 #28
Flatpicker Dec 2012 #29
rickyhall Dec 2012 #30
cascadiance Dec 2012 #33
Auntie Bush Dec 2012 #32
jimlup Dec 2012 #34
No Compromise Dec 2012 #46
jimlup Dec 2012 #48
ismnotwasm Dec 2012 #36
No Compromise Dec 2012 #42
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #53
No Compromise Dec 2012 #43
woo me with science Dec 2012 #47
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #49
No Compromise Dec 2012 #60
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #63
tblue Dec 2012 #54
Little Star Dec 2012 #56
Flashmann Dec 2012 #57
Hotler Dec 2012 #59
libodem Dec 2012 #61
cascadiance Dec 2012 #64
libodem Dec 2012 #66
robinlynne Dec 2012 #62
gtar100 Dec 2012 #65
No Compromise Dec 2012 #67
nolabels Dec 2012 #68

Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:57 PM

1. Which is why they are headed towards extinction. They should change their logo to the Wooly Mammoth

instead of elephant. We may see the full collapse of the Republican party in our lifetime.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:12 PM

8. yeah

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Response to InsultComicDog (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:14 PM

9. or maybe

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Response to InsultComicDog (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 10:21 PM

31. This one.. Yes.. I like it.. :>)

The poor creature looks old and on its last legs...
How do we spread this everywhere? Web sites "News' outlets...?
"The Wooly Mammoth Party"

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Response to pangaia (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 06:23 AM

55. we can email it to Rachel Maddow. she would laugh

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Response to pangaia (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:43 AM

58. Yeah. This one even looks all faded out.

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Response to InsultComicDog (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:22 PM

45. Can you get that mammoth bogged down in a tar swamp?

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:25 PM

11. Perhaps

But we all know what happens when a rabid animal is cornered....and the death throes of the current incarnation of the GOP will not be without damage being inflicted on the United States!

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:57 PM

2. Yes,

yes I do.

Well, not nearly as insane as there are now anyway.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 07:01 PM

3. Yes, I'm old enough to recall.

Eisenhower first election I remember family talking about. (They were NOT happy that Stevenson didn't make it.)
Jake Javits

http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19660624,00.html

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Response to elleng (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:11 PM

7. Me too!

 

Alas, 'twas a looooooooooooong time ago.

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Response to elleng (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 01:19 AM

51. I remember that as well.

Harry Truman was president when I was born in 1945. I remember the Eisenhower/Stevenson race very well. My family was supporting Stevenson.

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Response to Lugnut (Reply #51)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 01:25 AM

52. I beat you by a few months;

FDR was president when I was born in 1945!

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 07:10 PM

4. Seems like a long time ago, but yes.

Hard to believe.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 07:40 PM

5. Nope! I first became really politically aware under Nixon's jackboots.

I was around during Eisenhower but the first thing I remember politically was J.F.K. In my 62 years, Republicans have always been nuts.

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Response to OffWithTheirHeads (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:43 AM

50. Without the republicans

 

Civil Rights legislation would not have happened when it did. There would have been no national guard protecting black children from entering desegregated schools. I agree that the GOP's current incarnation is beyond contempt but you are being short sighted in your views.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:08 PM

6. I liked Ike when I was a preteen. Since then my palate has refined. n/t

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:16 PM

10. Republicans lost their mind completely when they crawled in bed with evangelical preachers nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:48 PM

19. Amen!

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:27 PM

12. These posters show a history of unwavering support for these programs

Excellent string of posters!

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:29 PM

13. No - there were never rational repugs that i can remember

nixon - did not want public health care, so championed managed care so health care could be rationed

reagan - thought aides was a gay disease and ignored it. spent on spending like crazy and created deficits we are still struggling with. invaded small countries. allowed dictatorships to flourish in south america to stop any government from doing anything to help their people.

bush senior - lied about iran contra. poverty and unemployment hit high levels under his watch. destroyed environmental programs. allowed the male equivalent of sarah palin to run many important programs that suffered as a result.

bush jr - allowed terrorist attacks on american soil. started multiple wars. destroyed institutions. created unparallels economic problems, the world over. destroyed US credibility around the world. Destroyed the word of law. Created a supreme court that is completely partisan.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:31 PM

14. They became what they claimed Democrats were.

In 2003 they spent on their special interest supporters to a degree never accomplished before in American history. This spending was different than Democratic spending because the Republicans managed to make sure that most of this help never trickled down to the masses.

Just think, their supporters were already doing well. Now they are drunk on power and greed. Worse, they are demanding that not one cent be spent to help the supporters of Democrats, which would also help many middle class and poor Republicans.

So here we are, suffereing from the many crisises caused by the Republicans and their supporters and THEY are demanding that nothing be done to help us.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:36 PM

15. I do remember -

I even remember when there were LIBERAL Republicans.

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Response to LiberalElite (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:42 PM

16. Me, too!

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:44 PM

17. Gov. Ray Shafer of PA was the brother of our next door neighbor when I was a little boy

In a very middle class neighborhood in Meadville, PA.



He was a republican and a great guy .... he was for strong schools, universities,
infrastructure, civil rights, the environment, and he was a republican too.

the man would play ball w/the kids in the neighborhood and he would tell his aid that he was
in an important meeting for the next hour ..... Ray would have no home in the republican party today.

If Ray was still alive he would have personally slapped Louie Gohmert and told him to go to hell.

These are not Teddy R's republicans.

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Response to Botany (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:21 PM

24. I remember Gov. Shafer.

Yes, he was a sane republican, as was our late, great Senator John Heinz.

"Heinz, the youngest member of the 92nd Congress, soon became one of its most progressive figures. He called on President Richard Nixon to normalize relations with Cuba. He also criticised the administration for deploying new weapons as a tactic in arms limitations talks with the Soviet Union. He also supported a number of liberal social programs in education, human welfare, health care and housing."



http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/ (Wikepedia was down, so I googled his name.)

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:45 PM

18. Yes, but Everitt Dirksen and Eisenhower

are most of a lifetime behind me.

I haven't known Republicans to be reasonable since they decided to go after the votes of Wallace voters.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 10:49 PM

35. I think John Anderson was the last "Republican" I voted for...

... and he wasn't really a Republican then when he left the party to run as an independent that wasn't "born again" as Jimmy Carter was then.

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 10:58 PM

37. I briefly registered as a Republican to vote for him in the Iowa caucuses

 

then quickly re-registered as an independent after the caucus.

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Response to HarveyDarkey (Reply #37)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:13 PM

41. Perhaps I knew you then?... Voted for him in the election in Iowa then when attending U. of Iowa

Thankfully I don't think I ran in to Michele Bachmann there when she was campaigning for Jimmy Carter.

In the caucuses I think I was trying to campaign more for Jerry Brown then.

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #41)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:21 PM

44. Possibly, I was in Iowa City at the time

 

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:07 PM

20. Who was it that offered to cut SS last week? Who

said it wasn't a cut it is strengthening SS? Hint they weren't Republicans

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:07 PM

21. I do remember when Republicans were rational...

K&R

Elections came and went, and then they would settle down and work together to do the People's business. I think that the religious lobby that joined up forces with the Republicans in the late '70s and full force bringing Reagan to office was the time everything in DC went awry. Nothing's been the same since.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:09 PM

22. Well, I remember Nixon as the White House point of contact when he was Ike's VP....

....for a number of clandestine programs to include assassinations carried out in Central America, South America, and the Caribbean. He was in Dallas in the days leading up to the assassination of JFK but denied it for decades until someone found his travel manifest stating that he flew out of Dallas at the exact moment JFK was killed. I also remember his "enemies list" and his White House "plumbers".

Reagan was heavily involved in the blacklisting actors and writers in Hollywood in the 1950s the destroyed careers and families of hundreds of people, He was also somewhat involved in the Iran-Contra program that resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of native Indians.

George H. W. Bush. Where do I start with this guy? The OSS during WWII? How about the Cuban Task Force in the late 1950s to the early 1960s? How about the photo of Poppy leaning against a wall in Dallas the day of JFK's death and his constant claim that he can't remember where he was that day? How about his major involvement in the Iran-Contra program?

Ike was the last rational human being who was also a Republican. Since then, it's all been downhill.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:04 PM

39. Nixon also arguably had started the trend of Republicans doing treasonous things before elections...

... to get elected that was continued by Reagan with the Iranian hostages, etc.

Recently released were the audio tapes of LBJ talking to Senator Dirksen on how Reagan's people told North Vietnamese officials to avoid going to a summit meeting that LBJ and Humphrey had trying to set up to end the Vietnam war, in an effort to have them believe they'd get a better deal from Nixon. LBJ said to Dirksen that he believed this to be an act of treason, and Dirksen responded "I know!". That shows you the depth of Nixon's corruption that started the party off on the wrong direction that it has evolved in to now.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:12 PM

23. My gut tells me that

Soon we may have many even on this forum advocating for some serious changes to the social safety net programs... It is a shame really.

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Response to humbled_opinion (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:10 PM

40. Hell no, but it seems odd that many Republicans would call someone like Obama "stupid"...

for even considering doing this now. No Democrat should even be on the radar for being considered "stupid" in this fashion.

It's a sign of how corrupt and nuts our political system has become now. I still want to understand what the end game is for those pushing this is, and why and how they are getting Democrats to go along with them on this too. Is this part of the privatization efforts?

Or is it even more, where they really want to have us a nation of poor people that is locked in to the lowest levels of Maslow's hierarchy where we are just focusing on "survival" in their efforts to basically squash any opposition for running their agendas rampantly through our government that they don't want democracy to have anything to do with what runs it.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:30 PM

25. We need to recreate Teddy Roosevelt's Bull Moose party for the sane ones to move to.








or the "Progressive Party"...



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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:34 PM

26. Hey Obama

If you have to be any type of GOP, be like IKE.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:36 PM

27. No. They've always been greedy lying sociopaths.

Republicans today are just worse greedy lying sociopaths than their predecessors were.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:00 PM

38. Just more blatant about it

 

not necessarily worse.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:38 PM

28. "Remember when..."? No--I was born AFTER 1872...

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:43 PM

29. They got bought

by the modern day Robber Barrons.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 10:12 PM

30. Of course, Teddy was a warmonger.

He did a lot of good but the Spanish American War wasn't one of them.

Bushes are criminals, period.

But for me Reagan was the worst, he ended my college education before he was in there a year. His legacy was the destruction of affordable education as well as his deficits.

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Response to rickyhall (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 10:33 PM

33. Yep, you are right about Teddy being a warmonger. So was LBJ in the 60's...

Had LBJ not had the bad mistakes he made in the Vietnam War hanging over him, he might have been known as one of the greatest progressive presidents in recent times, having done things like starting much of what has become our modern day safety net, passing the Voting Rights Act, and a lot of other decent legislation that he pushed in many cases literally physically through congress that we all should be very thankful for that are in place today.

Teddy Roosevelt had his heart in the right place for many things that stood up for the common man, even if he also made a lot of mistakes on the world stage that started us in our 20th century empire building mistakes.

Reagan also recognized that capital gains taxation should be the same as regular income tax rates, even though the Grover Norquist types of today try to conveniently have all of us ignore that amongst other things that Reagan did then. Reagan on balance though did more to destroy our economy and was on balance one of the worst presidents even with some of the good aspects he had.

And Eisenhower, even if he is far better on many things than his Republican successors were, he arguably laid the ground work for what happened in the Vietnam War when he sent a lot of military "advisors" to Vietnam to help "train" the South Vietnamese prepare for the vacuum that was happening when the French withdrew from Vietnam then. Perhaps not as much of a "conscious" war monger then and didn't perhaps want to be that involved there, nevertheless he did get us more involved then to keep the "domino theory" from becoming a reality they believed would cause tremendous problems then. It was later Kennedy that turned these advisors in to combat forces and grew there sizes significantly, as did LBJ and Nixon did as well.

The problem we have today, is that the media which has never been so corrupt and "owned" and NOT serving the public good the way our constitution has written it should be as an institution has a warped image to try and push through the radical extreme Republican ideas and ignore the sane areas in the past that many Republicans had, in an effort to greedily flush any remaining sanity that party has left today. That is why this party (AND the corrupt corporate media that serves it) needs to be taken on heavily through bottom up grass roots efforts to shut it down and bring back sane discussions of our history and not allow them to define their false image of it for the rest of us.

And any effort to "simplify" and "reform" our income taxes should look back at the forgotten history there that the corporatocracy wants us (especially the younger generation) to not know about and forget.

Think how valuable these pieces of the tax code would be today if they were still there instead of removed back in the 70's and 80's.

1) sales tax deductions - helped a lot of people contributing to our economic growth keep more of their wealth while spending in society, and it also helped states that depend on sales tax revenue not feel more of a pinch with less people spending money when they could get added tax deductions spending money in their states.
2) interest deductions on more than just home mortgage interest - This would help ALL Americans, not just home owners, especially with the a lot of the huge and high interest credit card debt that people have today when their income hasn't kept up with inflation. And if we hadn't lost this deduction, arguably perhaps the home mortgage bubble might not have been as big as it was when it blew up a few years ago, if more people didn't move all of their debt in to their home mortgages in order to qualify for tax deductions on it. This would also hep students with record debt levels now in student loans in getting back some of that expense too.
3) income averaging - I remember when I was first moving from being a student with lower paying jobs to being a college graduate with higher paying jobs that this deduction was very valuable in helping me out at least the first year or so not paying as much taxes, and would also help many people today when they finally get a job after being unemployed for a year or so to get their lives restarted again. I certainly could use it in that regard this coming year in that regard.

It's this kind of tax subsidies that I'll bet Romney and his crowd were looking at going after, but not wanting to tell us up front about, so that they could screw us again to reward themselves and their rich buddies again. We need to be conscious of the details of how these deductions and others were taken away from us and were one more factor in the decline of the middle class (along with reduced tariffs, etc.), since the 80's. The corporate (so called "liberal") media won't tell us about this part of our history. We need to make sure ourselves that we and our children are informed on these details so that the same mistakes aren't made again in allowing the corporate raiders rig the system in their favor again.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 10:22 PM

32. They weeded themselves of all the good guys and nothing but the chaff left. Their own fault!

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 10:44 PM

34. I agree that they've lost touch with reality but ...

I'm not going to rec the thread. I've lived with all of these men as my "President" and they were not leaders on whom I felt I could rely.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:25 PM

46. oh no problem, most of them are criminals

 

but what does that say about today's Republicans that these criminals look moral?

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #46)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:31 PM

48. I don't think that today's republicans are more criminal

Last edited Wed Dec 26, 2012, 02:45 PM - Edit history (1)

but I certainly agree that they are more unhinged. Or insane... I do think the Republican party has lost its way. It built its ideological foundation on a falsehood. It did this slowly over many decades and as a result it has had to appeal to both a radical fringe and an elite wanna-be plutocracy.

As an historian it would be an interesting study in the failure of a political party but as a member of this society it is indeed hard to live through!

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 10:52 PM

36. No, actually.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:18 PM

42. Ford

 

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #42)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 01:33 AM

53. Ford: Member of the Warren Commission and the only unelected VP to become...

...the only unelected president immediately following the resignation of Richard Nixon. He talked a good game just like Nixon, Reagan, and George H. W. Bush, but he was cut from the same rotten cloth.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:21 PM

43. when things started to go wrong, really wrong....

 

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 11:26 PM

47. A greater of two evils is necessary in this corporate game. nt

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:32 AM

49. No, because Reconstruction was a long time ago.

Your post gives credence to a number of greedy lying sociopaths - and some major war criminals.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #49)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:26 PM

60. oh I know, but they use to be better actors at least

 

the current guys can't even be bothered to pretend they care about anything other than themselves

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #60)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 02:59 PM

63. That means it used to be worse.

Was Nixon a better actor? Ha. More like, the country as a whole was genuinely more psycho -- if perhaps only slightly -- for a few years than it happens to be now. Or even just six or eight years ago, under Bush. And therefore put that guy in charge. It's probably better with an incompetent Boehner only in command of the House than with a wily Nixon in charge of the executive, no?

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 01:41 AM

54. Or as Billo would call them: 'far left loonies'

Anything to the left of Sarah Palin is a liberal pinko commie. Except Reagan who is the 2nd Coming.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 07:55 AM

56. k&r

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:17 AM

57. Remember when Republicans were Rational?

I sure do!!......I was 8-9 years old........Now I'm 59 years old.....

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 09:51 AM

59. Kicking! n/t

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 01:42 PM

61. It is as if

Corporations are the new models of human behavior. And we know the prime directive is profit. Not humanism. If corporations are people, they are MEAN people. Mean people, suck. In the hetro way of course.

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Response to libodem (Reply #61)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 03:45 PM

64. And they are "persons" that only sociopsths can identify with...

... which is why we have so damn many of them in the Republican party today and those at the top of so many of these increasingly monopolistic "corporate person" entities.

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #64)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:12 PM

66. No empathy

Or compassion. Very centered on profits over people.
And the rampant classism developing , as the middle class gets stamped out. Being created equal, to rich people, is quickly dissolving.
It's haves and have nots.
That is somewhat, what, the gun rush seems to be about. The people who believe the are the 'haves' protecting theirs. Keeping 'others' out. Scary world.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 01:43 PM

62. no.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 04:03 PM

65. Republicans tend to say only those things that are in their own self-interest.

What we are getting from them these days is what they've thought all along. The only difference is the political climate today in which they feel safe saying the crap that they do. I do feel that Eisenhower was sincere because he was consistent. But as for those others, I wouldn't trust anything they say. Their actions have spoken far louder than anything they've said.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 12:58 PM

67. anyone show these to family members?

 

any luck?

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2012, 01:20 PM

68. No

At 54, all of the ones that were living in my time turned out to be the ones selling our country the most short. It's just so much harder for them to lie and cheat anymore for so many different reasons. Just remember we never have to do all this inquisitorial work if they were all just more honorable people.

Nostalgia is best left to ones family, friends and person hood and not so much for national and world history

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