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Sun Dec 23, 2012, 04:29 PM

For Poor, Leap to College Often Ends in a Hard Fall. NY Times article well worth the read...

The story of their lost footing is also the story of something larger — the growing role that education plays in preserving class divisions. Poor students have long trailed affluent peers in school performance, but from grade-school tests to college completion, the gaps are growing. With school success and earning prospects ever more entwined, the consequences carry far: education, a force meant to erode class barriers, appears to be fortifying them.

“Everyone wants to think of education as an equalizer — the place where upward mobility gets started,” said Greg J. Duncan, an economist at the University of California, Irvine. “But on virtually every measure we have, the gaps between high- and low-income kids are widening. It’s very disheartening.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/23/education/poor-students-struggle-as-class-plays-a-greater-role-in-success.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

I managed to keep from falling through the cracks, but it took a lot of help from friends, faculty, and family. I feel extremely fortunate, but also extremely disappointed that the system is only getting worse. As one commenter stated "it's like a knife fight" to compete in the science department at some, if not most, Universities. The only thing I might add is the knife fight isn't over once you graduate either. Being poor is enough disincentive, I can't imagine the added stigma of race on top of that. The article brought back a lot of Deja vu.

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Reply For Poor, Leap to College Often Ends in a Hard Fall. NY Times article well worth the read... (Original post)
adirondacker Dec 2012 OP
DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #1
Mona Dec 2012 #2
AlphaCentauri Dec 2012 #3
FirstLight Dec 2012 #4
adirondacker Dec 2012 #23
FirstLight Dec 2012 #31
riderinthestorm Dec 2012 #5
riverbendviewgal Dec 2012 #6
CTyankee Dec 2012 #7
Igel Dec 2012 #8
Indykatie Dec 2012 #10
bread_and_roses Dec 2012 #15
Indykatie Dec 2012 #9
xtraxritical Dec 2012 #13
adirondacker Dec 2012 #14
exboyfil Dec 2012 #26
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #11
adirondacker Dec 2012 #12
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #16
politicat Dec 2012 #17
AlphaCentauri Dec 2012 #20
daleanime Dec 2012 #27
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #18
AZ Progressive Dec 2012 #19
Manifestor_of_Light Dec 2012 #21
Cresent City Kid Dec 2012 #22
Politicub Dec 2012 #24
Politicub Dec 2012 #25
Wellstone ruled Dec 2012 #28
adirondacker Dec 2012 #29
johnlucas Dec 2012 #30

Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 04:41 PM

1. as a kid in similar straights

I can tell you there is a LOT of truth in this article. The powers that be do NOT want working class kids to get into power, as they know that, once companies start to import Asia's CEO's and Engineers, even Buffy and Muffy in the Hamptons might not get get the automatic handover of Wealth and status.

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 04:54 PM

2. Thanks for posting this. nt

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 04:59 PM

3. The defunding of public education is creating a hole

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 05:30 PM

4. it goes beyong just the current, recent generations...

I am in my 40s, been struggling to upgrade my life thru education for 20 years now as a single mom...still not there yet.

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Response to FirstLight (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 10:29 AM

23. You should be extremely proud of yourself, whether you get your ticket punched or not.

That's a lot of responsibility to be carrying while pursuing a degree and doubt very many in this society could make it through without major financial help. I couldn't. I was raised by a single mom and have the utmost respect for her, and the sacrifices she made for myself and my sibling.

There are plenty of folks without a degree that are smarter than those that have them. As a professor once consoled me "The people below know more about the people above".

I'm in my late 40's and didn't start college (again) until I was in my thirties. There are upsides of being an older student (we know what we don't want, as well as what we do). Wishing you only the best!

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Response to adirondacker (Reply #23)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:30 PM

31. thanks so much

I was just mentioning to my BF last night that all I want is that BA, then I can either teach or find a little newspaper job in a small town. funny how for some of us, $30K a year would make us "rich" and open up horizons...

thanks for the words of encouragement. the new semester starts in a couple weeks and I am trying to gear up my brain for homework, etc....!

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 05:58 PM

5. K&R nt

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:05 PM

6. I guess it is like working in a union or non union company

Last edited Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:58 PM - Edit history (1)

I worked in a union company...got a great wage and benefits...seniority counted and you were trained to do new jobs

In a non union company I found you got ahead by either "who you know or who you blow"

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:11 PM

7. I don't know what went wrong. I currently have a home health aide due to some surgery.

She is a nice young woman who is struggling to get a foothold by getting her AA degree, with an eye to going on for a BS degree and becoming a radiology tech. She told me she was studying for an art history course exam and I tried to help her but she had absolutely NO education in art at all in her earlier years.

I hate to think that because she was aiming at a job as a radiology tech she shouldn't have to be exposed to art history, but I couldn't figure out a way to help her out. I did explain to her that art is more than just stuff on walls in museums and she has art all around her in many ways...

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:12 PM

8. Yup.

Some things left out, inevitably.

Most of my low SES kids are convinced that the world's against them. Just like the sentiment in one of the first response posts, they impute intent where there is little or no intent. In fact, I've seen admissions committee members flout state law in order to help low SES kids, esp. blacks and Latinos. They personalize something that really isn't personal. They are the center of their universe--so they must be at the center of other people's universes, too. I keep telling them that really, they're like me--just not that important in the grand scheme of things. They're shocked when I say that.

They also often have limited horizons for their lives--both in times of time frame and what's possible. I have one kid who works 40 hours a week. He's over 18, it's legal, and he's afraid if he asks for time off to actually do his homework or study for a test they'll cut his hours to the minimum. Like a number of other kids, he desperately needs the income because has to pay rent and buy his own food.

He left home the day after his 18th birthday. He's on his own, with car insurance, food, utilities, rent. Not because he needed to leave home. He wanted to. His father was cramping his style with rules and expectations he didn't share. Roommate? That would also cramp his "style." As it is, he says he has a career. He works for MacDonald's as counter help. Thing is, his father's not making much more income per year, so as far as this kid's "reference group" is concerned, he's doing well.

Another girl's grades just cratered. But she's happy as a clam. She got a job, and now comes to school wearing new, sophisticated, trendy clothes. She has the respect of her peers--and doesn't much care about her parent's respect, her teachers', or that of other groups. That's what matters to her. (When I went to a working class school, prepping for a decent job, college if possible, earned respect and said something about you. Having nice clothes said something about your parents, not you.)

----------
The article focuses on SAT prep courses and other later add-ons. The real difference happens before 3rd grade. Grades and aptitute tests in 5th and 6th grade are eerily predictive of high school and college success. Tell me what a kid's doing in 7th grade and I can probably tell you what he'll be doing in 12th. Late focus is pointless. We've made a big deal of early focus, EC programs, but the parents that dropped the ball during EC usually don't pick it up later.

Making matters worse are changes in family structure. This has confounded easy comparison of child poverty figures as well. Moreover these days kids from low SES families constitute a much larger percentage of the college-age population than before because of a larger difference in fertility rates between high and low SES families.

----------
The article also says that students should go to the best school they should go to because they have lower drop out rates. This is a fairly meaningless claim without knowing what's going on.

The lesser schools have students who drop out more frequently because of financial, family, academic problems. Better schools get around a lot of the financial problems, and school prestige or being away from home helps to overcame family problems. What the article doesn't say is that the better schools still have truly abysmal minority drop out rates, in nearly every case, and that most of the drop outs do so because they're in the bottom 25% or even 10% of the GPA curve. They simply wash out.

In other words, the drop out rates can't be directly compared because they're due to quantitatively different sets of causes. Students should to the best college they can *succeed* at, and for many 1st gen college attendees that's not the best school they can get into. It's certainly a school that's away from home.

----------
In many cases the students aren't trained properly. The article points out one cause of student failure at least twice without bothering to identify it as anything but bad attitude on the part of the schools. It's not. It's an unspoken expectation, one that the students typically meet in some contexts but not at college. They need to advocate for themselves. They need to go to office hours, ask faculty and TAs for help if they need it, etc., etc. They often don't. They're more than willing to challenge peers, they carp about authorities to their peers, but they don't address those in authority on anything like even footing. There are a lot of reasons for it, but it smacks of inequality to so treat ethnic groups so differently in order to try to assure similar kinds of outcomes.

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Response to Igel (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:42 PM

10. Igel, Thanks for Your Informative and Thoughtful Comments on this Topic

Unfortunately many students don't have the best support systems at home to help them navigate through problems they are sure to encounter in college. Some of my grand daughter's friends have parents who never attended college and were it not for peer pressure would not consider college. A primary reason for this is the need to earn a living once they graduate from high school. If money is tight at home kids are more likely to focus on getting a job rather then pursuing a college degree or specialized training.

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Response to Igel (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 07:25 PM

15. It sounds as if you blame the students, the parents, SES "culture..."

... seemingly, everything except the class warfare that's been openly waged against the working class and the poor for about 40 years now. TPTB saw what happened when a lot of working class kids went to college in the '60's - you know, when going to college didn't put you into indentured debt servitude for the rest of your life? They began then to make sure that would never happen again.

And - if you are in a low SES status, the world is against you. The cards are stacked, and not by accident. Among those cards is an entire class of academia and punditry all too willing to keep their seat at the table by blaming the poor for their plight.

Let's take care of the gross inequality and institutional racism and then worry about the other stuff. Especially since - at least in the case of the gross inequality - the remedies are well-known. (The institutional racism is admittedly harder, but we don't even try.) The rest we're guessing on anyway, with a new flavor of the day/month/year/decade coming along every time some "Liberal" scholar/pundit gets a tome on the best-seller list.

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:29 PM

9. College is Also Becoming Unaffordable for Middle Class Families

Even if the student is able to get a decent scholarship most will still face big bills. I did not understand how a student could amass $60K or more in debt until I started helping my grand daughter research colleges. All the schools we are looking at cost at least $40K a year though these are out of state schools. The in state options are less but could still be a stretch for some families who have not been able to save money for their children's education and if my grand daughter's friends are representative of that group that's most families. States continue to cut higher education in their budgets which has a big impact on the college costs for families. The better in state schools are also getting much harder to get on to as students are competing for slots with international students who can pay the full "retail" rate and aren't eligible for state or federal aid. I graduated from college 39 years ago when college loans was a foreign concept to most. Now colleges routinely calculate the Stafford loan as part of the standard financial aid award package. I feel for all families with bright children for whom a college education is out of reach. ALL children should have the opportunity for a college education.

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Response to Indykatie (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 07:14 PM

13. In most European socialist countries higher education is basically free.

 

The only way the US can keep up military enlistment is to keep the young poor and dumb.

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Response to Indykatie (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 07:19 PM

14. Count me in for a European style system. Government services work program for 2 years and off you go

Walk out after 4 years of school with $0 debt. As for me, I'm still paying on my loans that I took out in the 90's.

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Response to Indykatie (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:57 AM

26. $23K/yr.

in Iowa, and, unless you get a 30 on the ACT or are lower middle class, you won't get a dime in financial aid.

Agree it is B.S. to report any loans with the financial aid package. That should be standardized. The first you see should be the cost without borrowing. Borrowing should not even be discussed until after all other options are explored, then it should be done in terms of placement rates, starting salaries, and projected ROIs. The fact that, short of death, there is virtually no way to discharge this debt. In placement rates another column should be added - did you want to go on for a graduate degree or did you do it because you could not get full time employment after your B.S./B.A.? I would even include a small financial incentive for answering the survey (say $10) or a free year of membership in the alumni organization.

I would urge kids to make full use of dual enroll, PSEO and community college. Get as many credits at home before going on campus, but make sure that your credits will transfer. We have strong articulation agreements in Iowa.

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 06:44 PM

11. One thing that jumps out at me

is that wealthy kids may be able to focus more because they don't have to WORK their way through school. More time for studies, down time and sleep than their peers.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 07:05 PM

12. Yes. Along with parties, spring "break" and a host of travel options. n/t

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Response to adirondacker (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 07:25 PM

16. Eons ago, when I was in college,

I would volunteer for holiday shifts in the restaurant business that paid my bills. People are generally really nice/generous on the holidays, and as I couldn't afford to travel home - it allowed others to take that time to sit in airports, etc...

Win/win - but I would have loved a break during the rest of the year when classes were actually in session!

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Response to adirondacker (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 07:50 PM

17. Leisure is important, whether it's a party or just time for a walk through the park.

I carried a double major plus near-full time work through college. My parents encouraged college and I had the aptitude, but mom divorced my father (entirely warranted & should have happened years earlier) when I was in my first year of college. (I was 16; I started kindergarten early and skipped a grade.) My father was abusive, and Mom ended up trading our child-support for getting him gone. Even if the courts had forced support, he wouldn't have paid, and that was before the Clinton Admin made child support a priority.

They weren't well-off before, but after, there was no money. I had a superior scholarship including room and board for 9 months a year, and a small stipend, but I couldn't have done it without that help. I'd also learned the poor, abused kid's mantra - don't be noticed. Asking for help was admitting vulnerability. I managed on coffee, no sleep and will for 7 years... And the first month of merely 40 hour weeks felt like a tropical vacation. I had an advantage over the girls in the article -- I identified as lesbian then. That meant I had a very limited social life and after years of chaos, my single dorm (being honors and under-age got me that) then apartment (unshared) was pure bliss.

But for seven years, I hardly ever saw the sun or got more than five hours of sleep. It took a toll -- fitness happened rarely; I didn't form bonds; I missed out on a lot. Being poor doesnt mean you don't deserve good things.

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Response to politicat (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 01:21 AM

20. It should not be that hard for kids to get an education n/t

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Response to politicat (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:05 PM

27. I tip my hat to you...

Great job dealing with all, but no one should have to live like that.

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 09:02 PM

18. K&R

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 12:43 AM

19. K&R

I wish this country and the people in it had the courage to organize and make sure that eventually, so many different tragedies in this category, that category, etc... wouldn't have to happen. We are a country of which's system is fair only if people have an equal opportunity. Luck should not determine your fate. We have let this country's moral fiber deteriorate so badly, and our mission is only but a fake and shallow promise, a relic of a bygone era, that is abused for political purposes to advance the careers of ambitious politicians who have little to no interest or passion to truly help and defend what they say.

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 03:35 AM

21. It's who you know. Not how much education you have. Hard work doesn't mean shit.

College education is a cruel joke like bait on a string.

I am a baby boomer. BA in biology. Never got a job with it. Parents made me major in science, believing that would get me a job.

Went to law school at night for 5 years and worked full time at the courthouse. Never got a job with a J.D.

Vocational school degree provided me with a well paying but extremely stressful job at the courthouse.

Spent years in crisis/panic mode over college, bad grades, flunking courses, verbally abusive relationships with hostile men, finding a job, losing a job, verbal abuse from lawyers and judges, inherent stress in my job, financial problems, etc.

I felt like a failure, becuse I didn't make good grades oftentimes. I was in the wrong major due to parental pressure. I thought the world was going to come to an end if I flunked a course or l lost a job. Had several diff stress-caused illnesses starting in junior high school.

I was extremely disciplined and motivated in college to go to class and do my work. My parents were very supportive. We were in the middle class because my dad went to night school on the GI Bill after the war and became an attorney.


I never had to take out loans (in the 70s) and my parents paid my way and I worked in the summers during college. I paid for the J.D. by working full time to an expensive, free-standing law school. The BA was also from an expensive private school, considered the best pre-med school in the state.

I'm a perfectionist. I had a long series of different stress-caused illnesses,starting in junior high school and continuing until after I was burned out at my job before I was 35.

I had a couple of chronic medical problems where I did not have as much energy as your testosterone fueled coffee drinking yuppie would have, and was called "lazy" and "slow". This was with an IQ of 145 (3 SDs >average, defined as 1 out of 1,000 people).

I don't know the right people to get a job and I would be considered as coming from a middle-class family as it was defined in the 50s and 60s. I also feel that my career as a cog in the judicial system was utterly meaningless.

Spent 12 years in college that I consider to be wasted as far as being appreciated and getting a job I was truly qualified for, let alone making substantial money and having a real career. Didn't have mentors. Too much dog-eat-dog competition. Only people trying to STOP me, lie about me, fire me for stupid reasons, not hire me for stupid reasons, not pay me, tell me I'm incompetent when I'm overqualified, etc.

Crashed physically from stress & exhaustion in 88 with near-fatal pneumonia. Sick on and off constantly for 7 or 7 years

The baby boomers are the best-educated generation in history and we got shoved out the door 15-20 years ago.


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Response to Manifestor_of_Light (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 08:35 AM

22. My situation is somewhat similar

I have many of the attributes they say will lead to sucess, work ethic, talent, education, and intellegence, all leading to me sitting here on Christmas Eve wondering how I'm going to make it to my next payday on Jan. 2nd. I went to college briefly in the early 80's to study computer science. I had to totally support myself at age 18 and wound up working minimum wage jobs at pizza places. Looking back I'm sure there were things I could have done to improve my situation but at the time I had no way to access this information. I didn't fall through the cracks, I was born at the bottom of one.

I watched the sons and daughters of middle class parents become self supporting middle class adults without ever figuring out how they did it. My parents gave me everything except financial support. It's not that they didn't care, they just didn't have enough. My father spent his whole life in academia, attaining a phd in his 60's. His education led to a wealth of knowledge and a lack of income. I was taught to value education, and pursued it , but without a financial kick start or contacts, I struggled.

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Response to Manifestor_of_Light (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:34 AM

24. College was my ticket out of poverty

Maybe it isn't for everyone - I believe people should be able to try it at least at either a community college or state university.

But it was a while ago when I went to school and it was hard making ends meet. I went to a state school, so I didn't get burdened by astronomical debt. Pell Grants and work study went a long way, and I realize in hind site how critical subsidized loans and federal grants are to the poor.

The money that the tax payers invested for my education continues to return dividends to society in so many ways.

All Americans deserve equal opportunity to continue their education, even if they decide not to take advantage of it.

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 11:41 AM

25. Obtaining a college degree is my most important accomplishment.

And even though it's only a piece of paper, my diploma is something that I would try to save if my house caught on fire.

Equal opportunity can not be over estimated.

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 02:05 PM

28. Great articule,glad someone took the time to post it.

This is a been there done that story. Grew up very poor,but most working class kids in Northern Wisconsin were in the same boat so to speak. Was able to work my way through College and finish with no debt. Student financial aide only went to the wealthier students at that time and it carried around a 4% rate. Everything depended on your families financial and social status,much as today,if you were what was considered Middle Class at that time,fine,if not you were screwed. Hey,I make it without a support network and tell you the truth,it did get rough at times. Would have been a ton easier with some support. We made damn sure our children had our total attention all the time. Ironically,only used my degree in my chosen field for a year and a half,found out the hard way,corporate America likes kiss asses and I'm not one of them. College was the best tool for learning and under standing that there is a different world outside of Northern Wisconsin and poverty. Never made a ton of bucks,but we live very comfortable and are doing our best to minimize our financial legacy for our kids. Damn,it fun spending the kids inheritance.


Have to say,it's tough for poor and many middle class students to prevail in College with out a support or safety net. So many kids today are being cheated by the politics of our local school boards. Take a look around and you will see things like abortion,taxes,runaway Administrators salaries and the local church ladies running for political office as a stepping stone to a higher office with their hidden agendas. Not one iota of support Teachers. This top down garbage has to stop and access to higher education opened to all and paid for by the public. Yes,there are some of us that won't select College,let's make sure or Tech and Trade schools are revitalized once again. Enough of this for profit garbage.

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Response to Wellstone ruled (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 02:23 PM

29. I have an old friend from the Navy. He chose to become an Union Electrician....

His salary far surpasses mine, he loves his job, and he's taken on a wife and her several children from a previous marriage to support. He's happy as a clam, owns his own home outright, and has plenty socked away for retirement.

I also have a couple acquaintances that are masters in science dropouts. One owns a garage repairing VW's, and the other is an acclaimed woodworker. Both are content in what they do for a living.

College isn't for everyone.

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Response to adirondacker (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2012, 05:51 PM

30. College SUCKS!

Screw College! It's useless for most Americans today. ESPECIALLY if you're poor or working class.
I figured this out years ago.
Made my mistake chasing that pipe dream & paid off that student loan as soon as possible.
NEVER go into debt. NEVER!

The late great Michael Jackson told you in 1995 "All I wanna say is that, they don't really care about us".
When I look at how this system "works", I remember that mantra.
Entrepreneurship is one surefire way to get out of the broke class.
You have to find a hustle of some sort & store away the surpluses.

Live off as small a fraction of your income as possible & save enough so that you're free from the "job market".
I have been doing this with my 9 to 5 & it's starting to pay off after many many MANY setbacks.
Once I have enough stored away I will fund some side hustle to bring in a little more income & use all of that purely for my savings.
Something you can do right out of your home.

I don't intend on falling into the trap of mortgages, car payments, & all that other crap that 'Middle Class' people fall into.
NO DEBT EVER is my motto.
Who needs a house really? That's just a money hole unless you can pay it outright with cash.
You're not a homeowner until you are literally a HOME OWNER.
Mortgage is renting from the bank. And the bank doesn't even do repairs!

Unless you get a scholarship, forget about secondary schooling.
It's a useless gamble that requires you to waste too many years of your life in school & requires you to go into too much debt to succeed.
You can't start your life out with that much debt. It kills your flexibility.

Kids in their teens as young as 12 need to have a plan how to get out of The Poverty Trap.
Can't wait until you're 18.
Problem is most parents can't teach their kids how to do this themselves because THEY don't even know how to do it at 40.
That plan cannot include items such as "going to college", "working a summer job", or "working a job" period.
That's way too one-dimensional & will trap those kids into that Rat Race treadmill for the rest of their lives.
If kids HAVE to get a 9 to 5, kids must see this as a stepping stone & store away the surpluses early so they can get out of the workforce earlier.

The idea is to get enough money so money is no longer a concern.
That does NOT necessarily mean getting rich.
That means getting enough money to handle your needs at will & have a strong enough savings to draw from.
To make yourself independent from the evil money game that forces all needed goods to go through that wicked middleman.

I could live like a millionaire off of $100,000.
If I lived off of only 10% of that, I would have 90% left over for reserves.
The less my money is tied up into my lifestyle, the freer from money I can be.
I can pay for my shelter, my food, & all my other necessities easily while splurging every now & then on some wants.
I can take a small portion of my reserves & strategize them to grow more money.
Can't do that if all my money's tied up in car payments, mortgages, student loans, & other useless pointless debts.

If that college degree is hit & miss for getting a well-paying job, if getting my Associate's/Bachelor's/Master's/Doctorate means I'm still working at a retail store only with a massive college debt over my head, then SCREW IT!
I can work at that retail store from jump & save, save, save so that by the time I'm in my 40s I won't have to worry about money ever again.

We teach kids the wrong thing.
You need to teach kids how to get out of the Poverty Trap EARLY on.
If they graduate high school & are looking for those old channels to save them, they're playing Russian Roulette.
Some may luckily survive but most are gonna fall into that trap.

Knowledge is everywhere.
I don't need to go into some stuffy building to learn about things.
You can learn more through an internet discussion board than in college nowadays.

This system has decayed. Let it crumble.
The authorities are mostly useless.
Time to do some innovative thinking to get ourselves out of this mess.
Can't sit around for a half-a-decade or more in college & hope that's gonna advance you.
Oh & that slavery called internship. Psssh!
I do work for you, I get paid. End of story.

College SUCKS!
John Lucas

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