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Fri Dec 21, 2012, 07:48 AM

Please help me (re gun control)

This is not a typical rightie that I deal with via eff bomb...this is one of my besties!!!

Start: EXACTLY!! People, as a whole, are effing stupid!! Crime rates plummeted after states allowed conceal carry permits. Its fact, plain and simple. I prefer to protect myself than allow myself become a victim. It's my right to bear arms, so I am!! So glad I moved to Texas! Now I need to take the class and get my permit.

http://www.ijreview.com/2012/12/26237-myth-gun-control-laws-reduce-crime/

Fin.

Do concealed carry laws really make crime go down? I thought it was the opposite.

27 replies, 1412 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 27 replies Author Time Post
Reply Please help me (re gun control) (Original post)
LaydeeBug Dec 2012 OP
Recursion Dec 2012 #1
Spider Jerusalem Dec 2012 #4
Recursion Dec 2012 #5
LAGC Dec 2012 #2
geckosfeet Dec 2012 #3
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #6
pipoman Dec 2012 #11
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #12
pipoman Dec 2012 #13
Recursion Dec 2012 #15
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #19
Recursion Dec 2012 #20
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #21
JanMichael Dec 2012 #7
rgbecker Dec 2012 #8
truth2power Dec 2012 #9
pipoman Dec 2012 #10
jmg257 Dec 2012 #14
Jeff In Milwaukee Dec 2012 #16
LaydeeBug Dec 2012 #17
99Forever Dec 2012 #18
X_Digger Dec 2012 #22
DanTex Dec 2012 #23
rrneck Dec 2012 #24
sarisataka Dec 2012 #25
LaydeeBug Dec 2012 #26
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #27

Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:02 AM

1. Crime rates have plummeted, worldwide, over the past two decades

Everybody would like to credit their own pet policy for that, but there's no convincing data for anything. So, on the one side, yes crime rates went down in states that adopted concealed-carry, but they also went down in states that didn't. On the other side, yes crime rates went down when the assault weapons ban was in effect, but they also kept going down after it was sunsetted.

People who study these things tend to give more weight to mundane stuff like demographics and lead abatement.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:07 AM

4. The explanation I've seen for the fall in crime rates globally...

has been the phaseout of leaded gasoline and the elimination of neurotoxicity from lead particulates in the atmosphere.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/ban-on-leaded-petrol-has-cut-crime-rates-around-the-world-398151.html

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:11 AM

5. Yep. This is what I bring up whenever somebody rags on environmentalism

It's not about spotted owls and long tailed skinks, it's about real, concrete, measurable damage that pollution does to society at all levels.

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:05 AM

2. It's true that the violent crime rate has declined over the past 15 years...

...even as millions of more guns have flooded the streets and concealed-carry laws have been relaxed.

But there are multiple factors at play, so liberalized concealed-carry isn't the only reason.

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:06 AM

3. Yeah. There is no proof that the CC laws contributed to or were the sole cause of lower crime rates.

Personally I suspect wider availability of economic resources, education, health care and the means for people to support themselves without resorting to crime.

I know, we are bombarded with bad news about the economy and unemployment and health care etc. However I truly feel that even with all negative spin, in this country we are now better off than we ever have been.

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:14 AM

6. The point is to regulate massacre-friendly guns and ammo

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:25 AM

11. Which would those be?

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Response to pipoman (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:29 AM

12. You tell me

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:47 AM

13. You're the one making the suggestion..

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:03 AM

15. Well, that's "semi-autos that accept detachable magazines"

Which is so broad a class of firearms as to make any actual ban (as in, "turn them in") a practical and logistical non-starter, and any forward-only ban (grandfathering in existing ones) pretty much pointless (we're talking over a hundred million such weapons in private hands currently). It's also technology that civilians have had for over a century so the case that we need to ban it now is difficult to make.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:19 AM

19. I will await the judgment of finer minds than yours and mine

Meantime, you can always try to learn more on the topic:

http://www.npr.org/2012/12/20/167694808/assault-style-weapons-in-the-civilian-market

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:20 AM

20. I spotted five factual errors in that article just while skimming

Look, I love NPR, but when they write about guns for some reason fact-checking goes out the window.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:23 AM

21. Apparently, your mind is made up

There isn't a single step the government can take to make it more difficult for the Adam Lanza's of the world to run up the body count.

We'll see if you're right.

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:20 AM

7. Freak them out and point them to the Harvard (I think?)

study that showed crime rate drops after abortion was legalized.

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:21 AM

8. Factcheck has written about this extensively.

http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

Most all agree that the correlation is not proven to be causal.

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:21 AM

9. Coorelation doesn't necessarily imply causality. n/t

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:24 AM

10. As has been said, a lot of things

have led to lower violent crime rates...three strikes laws, longer sentences for violent offenders, and other things. Concealed carry laws have not increased crime as the opposition to these laws claimed, blood isn't running in the streets because of traffic disagreements, claims of massive collateral damage have not materialized, and claims of concealed carriers and police shooting concealed carriers because they don't know who the criminal is have not happened.

The claims that "concealed carriers have never stopped a mass gunman" are nonsense. The purpose of concealed carry is personal defense, not chasing down bad guys, running toward gun shots, or intervening in crimes in progress when the carrier isn't in danger. CCW is for self defense only.

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:52 AM

14. It doesn't really matter, does it? CCW holders will tell you it is NOT

about reducing crime in general, it is for reducing crime against them.

Anyway. there seems to be no direct correlation between the number of guns and crime levels. Crime levels go up, crime levels go down, but the number of guns steadily rises.

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:06 AM

16. Just out of curiousity, where does your friend live?

Most people who demand CCW are suburban or rural, middled-aged white males. They are statistically speaking the least likely persons in our society to be the victim of violent crime, and particularly robbery and assault by a person unknown to them.

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Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:39 AM

17. She was raised in Western MD (read: Kentucky) and now lives in Austin. nt

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:49 AM

18. There is only one place that more guns is the proven...

... causation of "lower crime rates." That's in the minds of gun apologists.

The factor affecting crime are extremely complicated, to say the very least.

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:25 AM

22. Data show no change.

Neither lower crime nor 'blood running in the streets over road rage.'

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:28 AM

23. No. Concealed carry laws do NOT make crime go down.

There were some studies coming from a guy named John Lott from the right-wing think tank AEI that came to that conclusion. But they have been soundly refuted, and in fact the best evidence shows that concealed carry laws result in a small increase in aggravated assaults.

Here is probably the most significant and comprehensive research paper on the topic.
http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/Ayres_Donohue_article.pdf

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:35 AM

24. There may be corrolation, but no causation.

Crime rates are down for a lot of reasons. CCW may or may not have been a part of it, but nobody knows.

People are complex, societies more so. Claiming guns impact crime in either direction is more hyperbole than anything else.

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:54 AM

25. There is some evidence

that crime rates in certain categories drop slightly in CCW areas

There is similar evidence that some other crimes go up slightly in the same areas.

In both cases the changes are not great enough to back the claims that CCW affected either case.


Crime has plummeted. There are more guns out there. We still have violence issues.
Each statement stands on its own.

Suggest your bestie read On Killing by Lt. Col. Rex Grossman or In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob (or any other of Massad's books)
While both authors are in favor of armed citizens they pull no punches when it comes to talking about the ramifications of firearms use. Grossman focuses more on the psychological toll of violence and killed, even in self defense; Ayoob leans more towards the legal consequences of even justifiable shooting and the personal responsibilities of being a gun owner.

I am personally aware of three people who changed their minds about choosing to buy a gun for self defense after educating themselve with these authors writings.

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 07:50 PM

26. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP. It is added to my arsenal.

I am very "gun green". These links are so informative, and really helped me to not back down.

Thank you for that.

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Response to LaydeeBug (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 07:53 PM

27. License to carry is not that useful, actually. You can't carry in almost any place.

I guess you could carry down the street, but where are you going? When you get somewhere, most places don't allow them.

Most mass killers and criminals don't bother to go through the rigamarole to get a license to carry. They're criminals. They don't need a law to let them carry. They just carry if they want to.

I don't think the license should exist, but I live in Texas, and it hasn't presented a problem so far.

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