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Thu Dec 15, 2011, 07:02 AM

Why I don’t get libertarianism:

Why I don’t get libertarianism: First, I would recommend the movie “There will be Blood,” based on the book “Oil” by Upton Sinclair. In it Daniel Dey Lewis’s character is a human metaphor for capitalism. He destroys everything in his path eventually destroying himself as capitalism eventually eats itself as we are seeing now.

The Pauls think its ok for a business to say who they will let in their doors based on bigotry because they are the property owners, even though it is the public that paid for the roads that lead to their door, pays for their police protection and pays for their fire protection.

The Pauls believe that a business such as Walmart should be able to pay any crap wage even though the worker is not paid enough to support him or herself to the point that the tax payer has to pay for food stamps the worker needs to survive, while the CEO makes that workers yearly wage in one hour.

The Pauls believe that a company should be able to use up all of the natural resources, pollute the earth and not pay for it. They believe Coke company should be able to go to any country, steal their water to bottle their coke, exploit workers for horrendous wages, pollute their water, make them deathly sick and not pay a dime for all the destruction they cause.

Capitalism is not the answer, it can’t float all boats especially global capitalism and it is not good for a majority of people. The earth can’t sustain our rate of growth. Capitalism wastes too much of our natural resources. Waste is not a good way to run an economy.

Someone has to pick the fruit, harvest the food, work at 7-11 or Walmart and yet libertarians are ok with those workers not getting enough to pay for food and healthcare. What is the point of living if the wage doesn’t allow peace and happiness? Why are we here…to slave for Walmart while they decide the value of our wage, while they lobby our government to make rules that favor them?

The public pays for most of the innovative research going on in the world through subsidies yet after the great things are invented, especially pharmaceuticals, using public subsidies the private companies get to keep all the profit.

Because capitalists rule, we are actually seeing our innovation drop in the US. We are no longer competitive because it has been the government subsidizing all the innovative research and the right and libertarians are starving the government to the point of no funding for that marvelous research. Other countries are soaring ahead of us. They are inventing renewable green energy technology while we are still trying to build an oil pipeline. We are old dinosaurs hanging on to old ways and afraid to fund the future. Our schools, roads etc are crumbling.

Private property seems to be at the root of libertarianism. Why should the “government” be allowed to divvy out land? Who are the real owners of the earth? If a government ‘s sole purpose is to divvy out land and supply protection for only the owners who would allow that government to be? The earth belongs to everyone.

Capitalism and socialism are not the answers. A better world is possible. We are moving out of the industrial age based on cheap oil, which came with murderous wars and destruction. We are moving into an information age. We are truly becoming more aware, more conscientious beings.

A TRUE COST economy is the way to go where companies are not allowed to dump toxins into our once clean air, land and water. Those companies make us sick with cancer and other illnesses but pay nothing to fix the problem. They make huge profits off of using up all the people’s resources and leave toxins behind that are killing us.

If they had to pay for the toxic waste they couldn’t afford to exist and so be it.

In a true cost economy we would not have a Federal Bank that creates money out of thin air. We wouldn’t have banks that created credit default swaps allowing one end of their business to bet that the other end will fail and rake in dollars as our pensions shrink.

A true cost economy would promote localism allowing us to stop using deadly pesticides and chemical fertilizers.

Capitalism destroys everything in sight. Our fish are not healthy to eat. 60% of asthma is caused by air pollution and toxins seep into our drinking water supplies. Everything is polluted. The earth is crashing and burning.

Free market capitalism is corrupt and unregulated and destroying the world.

16 replies, 1811 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 16 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why I don’t get libertarianism: (Original post)
rainy Dec 2011 OP
Scootaloo Dec 2011 #1
themadstork Dec 2011 #2
Atman Dec 2011 #3
dana stevens Dec 2011 #4
themadstork Dec 2011 #5
dana stevens Dec 2011 #6
Major Nikon Dec 2011 #8
dana stevens Dec 2011 #11
Major Nikon Dec 2011 #13
ejpoeta Dec 2011 #10
Scootaloo Dec 2011 #14
MrScorpio Dec 2011 #7
Starry Messenger Dec 2011 #9
rainy Dec 2011 #12
deacon Dec 2011 #15
rainy Dec 2011 #16

Response to rainy (Original post)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 07:20 AM

1. What's not to get? It's very simple.

Libertarianism is politicized sociopathy.

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Response to rainy (Original post)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 07:27 AM

2. RW libertarianism is a sham philosophy

designed for nerds who want to nestle firmly into the arse of robber barons everywhere but want something a littler "smarter sounding" that the patently authoritarian crap the republican party throws out.

Classical libertarianism has a much richer heritage and underpins much of what we work for here on the left.

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Response to themadstork (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 08:03 AM

3. Libertarianism is for communes.

It actually can work in small groups where everyone has direct involvement. As a governing philosophy, it simply does not work in a large Capitalist system.

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Response to rainy (Original post)


Response to dana stevens (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 08:13 AM

5. you get to the heart of rw libertarianism with the first sent of your second para

Property rights, and the right for the propertied to piss all over the dispossesed, while insisting that the dispossessed appreciate uncritically the taste of your urine, because boys that's liberty.

You're on solid ground here too, as it's exactly this special sort of "property rights" that this nation was founded upon. It's as American as robber barons who watch baseball while eating apple pie! Salute!

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Response to themadstork (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 08:20 AM

6. How do you separate ?

 

How do you live with the contradictory notion that you believe that people ought to be free in their lives and decisions, but they must live according to rules that conform to your view of how things ought to be?

How do you reconcile conflicts with your view that business MUST be perfect in their environmental approach, yet engage and buy things that create that result? Have you ever gone on a cruise? Are you aware that every cruise ship dumps into the ocean? Have you driven your car lately? Are you aware that YOU are actually contributing to the environmental pollution you claim robber barons engage in?

Are you aware of the term hypocrite and how this MIGHT apply to you?

Define "robber barons" as this is a fuzzy notion to me.

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Response to dana stevens (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 08:51 AM

8. Blame the consumer. Brilliant!

I'm not usually one for Nazi comparisons, but this is a pretty good one. Back in the 1930's, GM was enthusiastically mechanizing the 3rd Reich while simultaneously killing electric rail in the US during a time when the rest of the world was embracing it. This is what the looneytarian version of laissez-faire economics creates, which is basically capitalists which work directly against the best interests of the people. Your defense of the logging industry is laughable. They only started replanting forests because it became economically necessary for them to do so. In other words, only after they had clear cut vast expanses of US forests did it become economically viable for them to replant. If you want more examples of "robber barons" I could spend all day posting them, but I suspect all would be lost on your closed mind. Your reference to "tolerance" is equally laughable. This is the old tired and worn out RW meme which is that those on the left aren't "tolerant" if they don't tolerate the failed ideas of the right. Tolerance does not require me to tolerate assholery.

About the only thing you got right is that your tenure here will be short lived.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 09:03 AM

11. Ad Hominems!!

 

I guess the only way you can rebut an argument is reduce everything to ad hominems.

Interesting how you prove my point by showing the logging industry started to replant and now plants more trees than they take. What is the difference as to why; they do and that is the point of rational capitalism.

If it weren't for the consumer buying cruises there would be no ocean pollution by the cruise industry. if all consumers said we will not board ships that dump, I promise they would either stop dumping, or cease to exist. Rational capitalism. In addition, even if you keep the cruise industry from polluting your precious environment, your government and military complex will keep on keeping on.

Who is the arbiter of "assholery"? You Capt. Weinberg?

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Response to dana stevens (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 05:07 PM

13. More knee slappers

Someone who spews failed wingnut ideology on an forum that's exclusive to those on the left pretty much exemplifies assholery. It's called trolling. When trolls get enough alerts, they get banned. That's how assholery is arbitrated. It's pretty simple really.

Your point was crushed. If you want to keep pretending otherwise, be my guest. I always get a good chuckle from looneytarians. No matter how nutty their ideas, they aren't swayed from them.

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Response to dana stevens (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 08:54 AM

10. you have to be responsible. you can't do something that

hurts everyone else. taking all the water and leaving you with nothing. polluting the environment. You hurt others as well as yourself. We do not have a free market here. What we have is socialized costs and privatized profits. It is not a hypocrisy to point that out and say it is wrong. Sure people should be able to make choices for themselves. If I want to paint my house pink I should be able to. But I shouldn't be able to dump the paint down into the water table thus polluting the water for everyone else.

No one is asking businesses to be perfect. The libertarian's theory is that we can go support businesses that do what we want them to do. But then we have the crux of the problem. We don't have that option. What we have is monopolies and collusion. Corporations that stifle competition and leave us with no choice but to deal with them. Just like the owners of the railroad controlled their competition we have this today with little to no competition. These corporations control the government and ensure they keep their monopolies.

Rules are there for a reason. The government is supposed to protect us the little people from the big corporations. Without it's help we would go back to the good old days. Look up the triangle shirtwaist factory fire. Companies generally don't do anything without someone making them. Cars didn't worry about safety until the government made them. Sure there may be some consciously minded companies... but we cannot count on them to do the right thing. Most of them won't.

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Response to dana stevens (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 16, 2011, 12:12 AM

14. You're not making a very strong argument

When people make the argument you're presenting, you're basically making the point that there are only two options; Either total luddism, living in the woods and stabbing deer with sticks, or blithe acceptance of a oppressive and damaging economic system.

Basically, it's like you're saying "you can either accept the necessity of child slavery to make your shoes, or you can go barefoot," as if the abuse of children is the only way to make a shoe.

Yes, we are participants in this destructive system, but it's the participation of captives in the schemes of their captors. I'd love to have a non-polluting energy system. The fossil fuels industry, and their bought and paid servants in Washington, do not allow this to become a reality. I would love for more of my products to be made with full consideration to human dignity, but despite years of protest and counter-actions (through the creation of companies that engage in fair trade and humanitarian practices) the offenders remain offensive.

Presumably because of people who think that no amount of human suffering is ever worth spending a few dollars more on a shoe.

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Response to dana stevens (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 08:43 AM

7. First off...

You're spouting some ridiculous notion that liberalism is an anathema to owning property. I challenge you to name a single western industrialized AND liberalized social democracy that has outlawed the ownership of private property… Just one!

And frankly it's ridiculous for you to disregard the fact that the US Government is also subject to the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act just like everything else… They're call laws and they're there for a good reason. And the reason is NOT to make it harder for corporations to make a profit… They're there to keep us from dying needlessly early.

And to use that incorrect argument as a defense for corporate pollution… Don't you realize how stupid that sounds?

The "free market system" IS corrupt and needs to be closely regulated, else it'll run us all off a cliff.

No liberal is opposed to anyone making a buck, as long as that buck is honestly obtained and clean.

The libertarians are the ones suffering from cognitive dissonance… They refuse to understand the very human nature which allows people with no rules to act lawlessly for the benefit of their own ends.

Instead of America, they should all move to Somalia… I hear that it's a libertarian's paradise.



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Response to rainy (Original post)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 08:52 AM

9. I recced but I'm curious why you don't think socialism is a way through.

I thought your writing was spot on in the rest of the piece.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 04:54 PM

12. honestly I don't know what socialism would really look like. If you mean like some European

countries that have a strong social safety net but still allow unregulated capitalism to corrupt the system then that is not the answer. They still exploit natural resources, waste them and pollute without liability.

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Response to rainy (Original post)

Fri Dec 16, 2011, 12:46 AM

15. Lonneytarianism brings us back to horse and buggys on dirt roads. n/t

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Response to rainy (Original post)

Thu Dec 29, 2011, 03:06 PM

16. Can we kick this around Some more?

I stayed up late putting it together

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