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Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:33 AM

Liberal or Progressive

How do you differentiate between the 2?

A post of my work at a shelter got banned (I assume because i just one of those liberals who acts on what he does)

Where do you draw the line?

The devil in me wants to ask, can we tolerate liberals in our mix>
9 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
Liberal...
4 (44%)
Progressive...
4 (44%)
Other
1 (11%)
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

41 replies, 1646 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 41 replies Author Time Post
Reply Liberal or Progressive (Original post)
Riftaxe Dec 2012 OP
peacebird Dec 2012 #1
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #2
Jackpine Radical Dec 2012 #5
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #22
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #3
LAGC Dec 2012 #4
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #6
banned from Kos Dec 2012 #10
el_bryanto Dec 2012 #7
Evergreen Emerald Dec 2012 #8
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #11
Evergreen Emerald Dec 2012 #39
Skidmore Dec 2012 #36
think Dec 2012 #9
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #12
JaneyVee Dec 2012 #13
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #15
MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #14
gollygee Dec 2012 #16
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #17
banned from Kos Dec 2012 #18
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #19
zipplewrath Dec 2012 #20
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #23
Mc Mike Dec 2012 #21
Selatius Dec 2012 #24
TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #25
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #26
WillyT Dec 2012 #27
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #29
Romulox Dec 2012 #28
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #30
zipplewrath Dec 2012 #31
leftstreet Dec 2012 #34
forestpath Dec 2012 #35
raouldukelives Dec 2012 #38
MrYikes Dec 2012 #32
slackmaster Dec 2012 #33
Comrade_McKenzie Dec 2012 #37
muriel_volestrangler Dec 2012 #40
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #41

Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:35 AM

1. I self identify as a very liberal progressive....

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Response to peacebird (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:35 AM

2. That has me scratching my head

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Response to Riftaxe (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:38 AM

5. Your whole post has me scratching mine.

I have no idea what you're trying to ask, or what the differences are btween the two terms in your usage.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:01 AM

22. Folette and uren

are probably the two i would point you towards.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:37 AM

3. apparently we have to choose sides

seems a bit pedantic to me...but ya know, where the crowd goes...I will be left behind doing what i believe in.

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:38 AM

4. Liberal, because...

"Progressives" have a long history of authoritarianism, such as the Temperance movement and Prohibition. You see many progressives today behind he gun control movement.

"Liberal" on the other hand implies tolerance, live and let live, freedom on social issues and on what people do with their bodies.

I'm more of a left-libertarian, so I identify with the "liberal" label more than "progressive."

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Response to LAGC (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:41 AM

6. I am aware of their history

and i find you very astute...While we can assume the progressives of the day are not aware of it, you are the first person to acknowledge that disgusting baggage.

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Response to LAGC (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:46 AM

10. Also some progressives want to ban porn - as a liberal I find bans disgusting

 

(Same for gun bans).

Don't tell me how to live (I am pro-choice pro gay marriage too).

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:44 AM

7. You know if you dunk someone in water and they cry out, they are liberal!

If you offer someone delicious crepes and they say "these are good crepes" that person is undoubtedly a progressive.

If you drop a hammer on someone's foot and they cry out, they are probably a liberal!

If, at any time, a person says or even thinks the word frappacino they are probably a progressive.

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:44 AM

8. I think "progressive" is a re-naming of "liberal"

Done in response to the republican's successful de-dehumanization of the anyone "liberal."

So, in answer to your poll...both.




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Response to Evergreen Emerald (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:46 AM

11. I suspect it not as clear cut as that

I suppose i should have asked what is the definition between liberal and progressive.

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Response to Riftaxe (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:42 PM

39. Liberal was successfully turned into a dirty

People stopped associating themselves with "liberal" in response. "Progressive" started replacing the term "liberal" recently.

I think that you are correct: how the terms are defined is key. I understand the history of the terms. I believe they have morphed into something different.

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Response to Evergreen Emerald (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:13 AM

36. I agree with you. I find the these to terms

serve the purpose of creating discord. I don't think you can be one without being the other.

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:45 AM

9. Let me know which group believes current military spending is fucking insane

and pencil me in that group please....

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Response to think (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:47 AM

12. Cut military spending by 80%

Sure, might have to close *most of our bases* but that is the point.

on edit: don't know about the others, but you my kind of liberal

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:47 AM

13. All Progressives are also Liberal but not all Liberals are also Progressives.

Hope that cleared it up.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:50 AM

15. Lord, i only took a course in phiosophy

because i had too. was 30 years ago anyways

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:47 AM

14. I'm both

 

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:50 AM

16. The problem I have with the word "liberal"

is that in economic circles, liberal means anything but liberal politically. "Liberal" means "radical free market capitalism." And in some countries the liberal party is what we would call neo-cons, though they call them neo-liberals.

I guess I personally prefer the word "progressive."

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Response to gollygee (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:53 AM

17. Left over from the age of enlightment

while hardley today don't encumber us with the definitons of 200 years and french too boot

To me reading progressive on a screen means eugenics and the other bother that they held dear.,

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Response to gollygee (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:53 AM

18. Liberals believe in free markets and free trade

 

the rest of the world uses the word more accurately.

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Response to banned from Kos (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:56 AM

19. On this we do agree

one hundred percent.

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:59 AM

20. Socialism vs regulated economy

VERY roughly speaking, I tend to see liberals as leaning far more towards an insistence of socialism in the form of DIRECT control of critical industries and services (nationalize the banks, oil industry, etc.). I tend to see progressives as leaning more towards merely wanting to heavily regulate markets and industries. They're also more "tolerant" of trying to accomplish goals through influence instead of direct control, even with respect to the social safety net.

But there's alot of hair splitting in there and to some extent one might suggest that all progressives are liberals, but not all liberals are progressives. i.e. one is just a subset of the other.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #20)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:06 AM

23. The distinction is a very important one

however, one i like well enough not to argue

very well said.

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:59 AM

21. 'Extremely/Strongly anti-nazi'.

Anti-authoritarian, anti-totalitarian.

Can't see fighting vs.liberals or progressives, but would oppose the authoritarian streak someone cited as reason for banning your shelter work post. I don't understand that ban.

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:11 AM

24. Liberal mean right-wing economic policy outside the US. Progressive is more historically accurate.

If you go to Japan, for instance, the Liberal Democratic Party of Japan is considered the center-right political party. It also is the most dominant party there and has been for decades. The option for voters that is to the left of the LDPJ is the Democratic Party of Japan, which recently just lost power back to the LDPJ.

If you go to Australia, the Liberal Party is the right-wing party in Australia. The Labor Party there is considered to the left of the Liberals. The Green Party is even further left than the Labor Party, occupying the old positions that Labor once occupied three decades ago.

The reason the word liberal means something entirely different in the United States is because Franklin Roosevelt co-opted the term "liberal" from the Republican Party. He redefined it to mean working class freedoms from unfair competition and monopolies and the freedom to pursue renumerative jobs that offered human decency and a comfortable standard of living.

Prior to FDR, liberal basically meant the freedom to run a business however one saw fit, even if it meant using child labor and little or no environmental pollution control or workplace safety standards. That's what liberal meant, and it's what I still consider the accurate term. "Neoliberal" as a term was invented in the US because of this historical anomaly with the term.

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:11 AM

25. Anti-authoritarian leftist or left libertarian, I think works for me.

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:12 AM

26. In the end, i suspect progressives and liberals

want the same thing...however; progressives are willing to make every man, woman and child suffer to achieve it.

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:15 AM

27. JFK's Remarks... Liberal... K & R !!!

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

But first, I would like to say what I understand the word "Liberal" to mean and explain in the process why I consider myself to be a "Liberal," and what it means in the presidential election of 1960.

In short, having set forth my view -- I hope for all time -- two nights ago in Houston, on the proper relationship between church and state, I want to take the opportunity to set forth my views on the proper relationship between the state and the citizen. This is my political credo:

I believe in human dignity as the source of national purpose, in human liberty as the source of national action, in the human heart as the source of national compassion, and in the human mind as the source of our invention and our ideas. It is, I believe, the faith in our fellow citizens as individuals and as people that lies at the heart of the liberal faith. For liberalism is not so much a party creed or set of fixed platform promises as it is an attitude of mind and heart, a faith in man's ability through the experiences of his reason and judgment to increase for himself and his fellow men the amount of justice and freedom and brotherhood which all human life deserves.


I believe also in the United States of America, in the promise that it contains and has contained throughout our history of producing a society so abundant and creative and so free and responsible that it cannot only fulfill the aspirations of its citizens, but serve equally well as a beacon for all mankind. I do not believe in a superstate. I see no magic in tax dollars which are sent to Washington and then returned. I abhor the waste and incompetence of large-scale federal bureaucracies in this administration as well as in others. I do not favor state compulsion when voluntary individual effort can do the job and do it well. But I believe in a government which acts, which exercises its full powers and full responsibilities. Government is an art and a precious obligation; and when it has a job to do, I believe it should do it. And this requires not only great ends but that we propose concrete means of achieving them.

Our responsibility is not discharged by announcement of virtuous ends. Our responsibility is to achieve these objectives with social invention, with political skill, and executive vigor. I believe for these reasons that liberalism is our best and only hope in the world today. For the liberal society is a free society, and it is at the same time and for that reason a strong society. Its strength is drawn from the will of free people committed to great ends and peacefully striving to meet them. Only liberalism, in short, can repair our national power, restore our national purpose, and liberate our national energies. And the only basic issue in the 1960 campaign is whether our government will fall in a conservative rut and die there, or whether we will move ahead in the liberal spirit of daring, of breaking new ground, of doing in our generation what Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman and Adlai Stevenson did in their time of influence and responsibility.

Our liberalism has its roots in our diverse origins...


Full Speech: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/jfk-nyliberal/


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Response to WillyT (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:17 AM

29. A repost fron one of your earlier ones

But I loved it then, love it even more now

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:16 AM

28. "Progressive" is the label the phoney, Third-Way types adopted to distance themselves

from traditionally liberal positions and constituencies.

The Clintons, for example, are so-called "progressives", but aren't "liberals" in the slightest.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:22 AM

30. Having voted for Bill twice

and Hillary once in primary....

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Response to Romulox (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:33 AM

31. Not even progressives

They took a few progressive positions on some issues, but it was as much by happenstance as anything. They took distinctively conservative positions on several things. Many of them were positions subsequent candidates ran AGAINST. DADT, DOMA, and NAFTA being probably the three biggest.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:07 AM

34. +1

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Response to Romulox (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:10 AM

35. That's the way I see it too.

 

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Response to Romulox (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:41 AM

38. Yep. nt

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:48 AM

32. I appreciate this post and this type of post.

More and consistent posting of this type would allow learning.

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:00 AM

33. Chinese Restaurant Menu

 

One from Column A, two from Column B. Choice of egg drop or hot and sour soup.

With five or more you get free egg rolls.

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:16 AM

37. Most of us should learn to be more pragmatic. nt

 

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:49 PM

40. Your post got hidden because you falsely accused another DUer of thinking 'fuck the homeless'

I'm sure you knew that; but it's just as well that everyone else knows it too, rather than seeing the picture of martyrdom you want to paint.

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Response to Riftaxe (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:53 PM

41. Your OP needs some rewording.

You ask multiple questions, but the poll seems to be answering the question "What are you?" which is not one of the asked questions.

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