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Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:45 AM

The Fiscal Cliff is real for those who will lose their food stamps

or unemployment insurance or other benefits including cuts to Medicare. This will happen in a few weeks. It is part of the sequester. Yet many here seem to be willing to let other people's children go hungry so they can win some imagined partisan ideological victory. That's not what being a liberal or progressive is about.

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Reply The Fiscal Cliff is real for those who will lose their food stamps (Original post)
One of the 99 Dec 2012 OP
Melinda Dec 2012 #1
One of the 99 Dec 2012 #2
Melinda Dec 2012 #5
stopbush Dec 2012 #8
Melinda Dec 2012 #10
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #86
stopbush Dec 2012 #205
One of the 99 Dec 2012 #11
Melinda Dec 2012 #19
One of the 99 Dec 2012 #21
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One of the 99 Dec 2012 #43
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HiPointDem Dec 2012 #217
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still_one Dec 2012 #3
One of the 99 Dec 2012 #4
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #38
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CrispyQ Dec 2012 #62
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #67
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #99
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #131
2naSalit Dec 2012 #6
One of the 99 Dec 2012 #12
0rganism Dec 2012 #7
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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:53 AM

1. Can you explain what the fiscal cliff and losing foodstamps have in common?

I obviously missed something, TIA.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:56 AM

2. Part of the fiscal cliff is the sequestration

which make severe cuts in many programs including food stamps. So if we go off the cliff many will lose their food stamps in 2 weeks. Which means in 2 weeks many of the most vunerable won't be able to feed themselves or their families.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:06 AM

5. I hear what you're saying, but it won't be quite like you suggest.

IF cuts are made to SNAP, changes would be not take place immediately... the program R&R's would have to be administratively rewritten and formulation of eligibility and subsidy amounts recalculated. Any person currently receiving SNAP benefits must be administratively notified of any changes to benefits at least ten days in advance, and that party has the legal right to appeal those changes (benefits must remain the same while the appeals process is in motion - generally about 6-8 weeks.

Regardless, I understand your apprehension. Many of us are just so right now.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:20 AM

8. I am currently receiving Fed extended unemployment benefits in CA, adminstered through EDD.

I was notified by letter earlier this month that my Fed benefits will end at the end of this month (December) unless new legislation is passed to sustain the benefits. In fact, I received the last check scheduled for my current extended claim yesterday, so my benefits are effectively over as of this week.

Apparently, no time is necessary for these changes to take place. They're scheduled to happen for everybody in about two weeks, and I have been so notified.

Were Congress to pass another UI bill quickly, I might qualify for another round of Fed extended benefits.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:41 AM

10. Different program, different rules and regulations.

You received timely notifications re your benefits, however UI programs differ from the SNAP program. Snap applications are certified for a full year, and recipients, like those receiving EDD benefits, must be timely notified. It's the actual time period and then the right to appeal changes that differ between the programs. Both are administrative, both are governed by admin law, but the structure and administration of the programs are different.

FWIW, I know exactly how you feel. I went thru the same back in 2008, and wasn't one of those fortunate enough to get any extension. Tough times indeed. Here's hoping and praying your benefits continue, that you find a job, that our President fixes this mess and fixes it the right way.

Best of luck and good wishes.
-Melinda

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Response to stopbush (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:37 AM

86. I lost my eligibility for the extended benefits back in May, 2012, when CA no longer qualified for

 

the fifth and final extension, the so-called Fed-Ed extension. IIRC, I received about 2 weeks' notice. Fortunately, I had savings and retirement accounts upon which to draw. But I will be keeping my fingers crossed for you.

BTW, I'm on page 1050 of 'Reclaiming History' now (Devastating to the pro-conspiracy folks.)

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #86)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:33 PM

205. Reclaiming History is a devastating read indeed.

I just assume the CTists who knock it haven't read it, as all of their fav CTs are utterly destroyed in that book.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:36 AM

11. Yes it will.

Many have already been notified of the loss or cuts in benefits starting at the beginning of the year.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:50 AM

19. Sorry, but not necessarily with SNAP benefits. You are ignorant of the law, I get this.

But this isn't how the Food Stamp (SNAP) program works. Only notifications going out at this time are re-certs, or Notices of Action re eligibility changes as a result of income, household costs (standard deductions for heating/electricity/phone) or family composition. The changes you speak of are still in discussions (pending legislation). No changes to the SNAP program can be made and entered into the Federal Register until such time as prospective proposals (pending legislation) becomes law. Then and only then can the Federal Rules and Regulations be implemented and SNAP benefits impacted (changed). There has been no legislation passed, there are no pending changes to the SNAP program at this time.

To be clear - we are talking Food Stamp benefits, not Unemployment.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:53 AM

21. Go back and re-read the sequestration

You're the one who's ignorant of the reality of the situation not me. You're talking about the normal process. But that doesn't apply here. The sequestration cuts are immediate.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #21)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:53 AM

22. Post it, please. I'd like to see the law you believe applies.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #43)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:26 AM

50. Thanks, I'll peruse it at work. Clock is ticking, and I have to run for now.

Appreciate the link, talk later. Have a groovy day.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:00 AM

217. You're misinformed.

 

A number of key mandatory programs are exempt from sequestration, including Social Security, Medicaid, CHIP, SNAP (formerly known as the Food Stamp Program), child nutrition, Supplemental Security Income (SSI), refundable tax credits such as the Earned Income Tax Credit, veterans' benefits, and federal retirement.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3557

The exemptions occur because the Budget Control Act is drafted as a portion of the Balanced Budget and Emergency Deficit Control of Act of 1985 (BBEDCA), which contains a list of exemptions in section 255 and a list of special rules in section 256. Those two provisions of BBEDCA were most recently updated by the Statutory PAYGO Act of 2010, and are not changed in any way by the Budget Control Act.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:33 PM

206. I thought food stamps were exempt from sequestration

Most low income programs are, although not all. Some, like LIHEAP, are not.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:57 AM

3. The cliff will force them to do something and if it doesn't then I suspect a lot of congress will be

Looking for a new job

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Response to still_one (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:59 AM

4. Seething???

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Response to still_one (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:06 AM

38. Most of congress should be fired for incompetency and also not representing

"we the people." Congress is a millionaires' club for egos and pursuing ones personal interests, certainly not all, but many ... and many are over impressed with their mediocre achievements.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #38)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:39 AM

57. Can't disagree with you there. nt

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #38)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:07 AM

62. The problem:



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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #62)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:15 AM

67. Exactly!!! And yet Americans keep voting them back into power ... because as some have

said, many Americans think they are just temporarily embarrassed non-millionaires, that their big reward is just around the corner. This, is a nation in serious need of some serious therapy.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #67)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:45 AM

99. Technical note: I believe the phrase 'temporarily embarrassed millionaires' may have originated with

 

the writer John Steinbeck, although its provenance is disputed. Steinbeck indisputably used the phrase 'temporarily embarrassed capitalist."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Steinbeck

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #99)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:11 AM

131. Thanks!!!

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:12 AM

6. Isn't the

"fiscal cliff" the vernacular term for the sequestration?

Even so, I am on food stamps but I have been preparing for the "cliff" and stocking up on some things so I can get through the first few weeks of it should that come to pass.

I suspect it will happen but a lot of people don't realize that not all of these draconian cuts have to take place on 1/1/13. There are some remedies that many don't consider...

1. The biggest thing that will happen is the major cuts in defense spending, since we spend 2/3 more than the DoD actually needs, that's a plus. It would save us billions on day one.

2. The President has the power of Executive Order and he can use this power to extend some of these social safety net programs for an amount of time sufficient to allow the newly elected member of Congress to take office and pass some Bills to replace the tax structure and other remedies necessary.

3. With the newly elected Congress, the R's will be significantly weakened... frankly I don't know why anyone would consider trying to get anything accomplished with this totally useless crowd of obstructionists, just because the term is ending doesn't mean these leopards will suddenly change their spots and get something worthwhile accomplished.

I might take a brief hit, and I don't have any cash saved up, but I would rather wait for the newly elected Congress on 1/3/13 to come to work as I think we all have a better chance anticipating that they will be different... not so many TPs and more Dems in the Senate and the potential for rule changes on day one in the Senate that will make it tough to obstruct everything that is introduced. And maybe even a new Speaker in the House.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:39 AM

12. Number 2 is just not true.

The President does not have the power to do that. Congress holds the purse strings. Now you may have prepared for this but most others have not or could not. In the end you're asking other people's children to go hungry to stand up for your principles.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:19 AM

7. so you think the GOP house is going to extend foodstamps and UI?

Hell, they're already trying to slash funding for hurricane Sandy relief. Their entire MO is "partisan ideological victory", and they win over and over again because we never seem to have the guts to say "NO".

The chained-CPI is a bad deal. The president and Democrats will be in a stronger bargaining position in January, when we can propose cutting taxes instead of merely preserving W's tax cuts. Many of the people on this forum understand this, and want him to negotiate from a position of strength instead of bending over backwards to eke some half-hearted ghost of a concession from the GOP.

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Response to 0rganism (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:43 AM

15. They have in the past.

And it is part of the current package. You're talking about a partisan political win. But the reality is that millions will suffer, not in 20 years, but in two weeks if a deal is not made.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:34 AM

9. People who are young and unemployed will get jobs eventually.

We who are older have been there ourselves -- "between jobs" when no jobs were likely to become available.

Food stamps is another problem. But the Republicans will give in on that one when we bring up the reality of hungry children and when the homeless start assembling on Wall Street again.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:41 AM

13. Nice rationalization.

But that doesn't solve the problem that millions of people are going to suffer if we go off the fiscal cliff.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:55 AM

23. Yes people will suffer due to sequestration

but going over the cliff creates conditions for a healthier economy and revenue coming in long term. The planned compromise that is put on the table is not only a short term hurting on people but long term as well. Look at the damage done to the US postal service. Has that been undone yet?

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #23)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:30 AM

53. Will you suffer?

I won't but I'm more concerned about people who will. I thought liberals/progressives were supposed to be more compassionate about those in need. Most here are sounding more like republicans who rather win a political battle than actually help people who need help now.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #53)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:10 AM

64. You simply don't understand what a chained CPI will do...

it will hit the poor hard now and into the future. Sequestration can be dealt with on the other hand...

Sorry, but when the Obama didn't let the tax cuts expire he created the conditions for this reality to come up again today. That is the price you pay for such a pragmatic approach.

I 100% understand why he did it at the time but he can't do it again this time around. Not when Social Security is on the line...

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #64)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:15 AM

66. No you don't understand.

Millions will lose benefits now, in 2 weeks. Chained CPI will result in an average reduction of $50 per month after 20 years. That can be undone by a future Congress. But those who have real needs now are going to suffer. Even if sequestration in undone at the end of January, that still means that for 4 weeks many will go hungry.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #66)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:21 AM

72. The damage done to the US postal service

has yet to be undone. Republicans pretty much put a Trojan horse in (chained CPI is no different).

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/22/1084948/-Republicans-manufacture-a-crisis-for-the-Postal-Service-and-too-many-Democrats-go-along#

Hold one thought in your mind every time you read about the "crisis" the U.S. Postal Service is in: There is a crisis, but it's a manufactured one. If Congress wasn't busy applying the Shock Doctrine, the postal service would face a challenge, but one it had time to meet. Instead, we're being told by Congress and by high-level management at the post office that the crisis is now and that massive cuts are the only answer—that degrading the services the postal service offers will save it.
But before we look at the cuts being proposed, what's so manufactured about this crisis?

In 2006, the postal service generated a profit. That was the last time it did so, because in late 2006, a lame duck Congress passed the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act, which among other things forced the postal service to fund its retiree health benefit obligations 75 years into the future, and to do so within 10 years. Taking care of retirees is a good thing, and we've seen far too many workers expected to fill the gaps in pensions and health benefits underfunded through no fault of their own. I'm not arguing that the postal service should reverse course so far that it leaves its retirees without health care. But if you needed a single concrete example to demonstrate that this is a manufactured crisis, here it is: Congress put a burden on the postal service that no other government agency or private corporation faces, and when that causes or accelerates problems, it's taken as evidence of certain doom and the need to make deep cuts.


Sequestration can be worked on with the new Congress convenes on the other hand and will be their top priority. If the damage done to the US postal service has yet to be undone, where is the political capital for the chained CPI to be undone?

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #72)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:31 AM

79. You're contradicting yourself.

On one hand your saying that Congress can't undue some damage and on the other hand it can. Which is it?

And even if sequestration is reversed in February, that's still a month that other people's children will have to go hungry to stand up for your principles.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #79)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:13 AM

134. There will be more political will to stop Sequestration

because even Republicans are against the cuts to Defense for example. It is not a contradiction but a reality is that Sequestration is across the board the cuts for the most part where both Democrats and Republicans do not want to see happen.

Cuts to Social Security or a ball and chain to the US postal service draws very little empathy from Republicans on the other hand.

Embrace that truth.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #134)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:17 AM

138. The truth is

anything done by Congress can be undone by another congress in the future.

And even if congress reverses the sequestration in February, it will be a harsh January for many of the needy.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #53)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:08 AM

126. So what are you suggesting? Just giving into boners "plan b"? That may provide the short term

relief that you are discussing, but it will hurt many more for years come. It won't be just social security and medicare, everything that you are rightfully concerned about now will be at risk later, but worse.

The facts are the current Congress are not going to agree, and it is far better to wait for the next congress, then doing something that will hurt us for decades



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Response to still_one (Reply #126)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 05:02 AM

215. Never once.

I suggesting that going over the cliff that so many here are for will result in suffering for a lot of people and shouldn't be celebrated with such glee.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #215)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:45 AM

221. you are right. However, since we last discussed, the republicans didn't even want their own plan.

It looks more and more like we are going over the cliff


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Response to still_one (Reply #221)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 07:51 AM

223. Unfortunately

But maybe the implosion of the GOP means the Dems can get a better deal.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #223)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:34 AM

225. I hope so

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:16 AM

214. The money is owed to the people on Social Security and to the federal retirees.

The federal government is obligated to pay all debts. That is in the 14th Amendment. Read it.

If it doesn't pay for other programs, the government will not be defaulting. If it doesn't pay for Social Security or for other federal pensions, seems to me it is defaulting. The Supreme Court has ruled that Social Security payments can be changed in this way, but it's my generation who paid extra into the Social Security Trust Fund beginning around 1985 under Reagan. It's my generation that loaned that money to the government, and now it is my generation that is having its benefits cut.

Somehow, when the government has to cut Social Security benefits, it's pretty much over for everyone. It means that we are a nation that can't pay its bills, that is in default, that is on the decline.

Now it is people on Social Security. And when our benefits have been cut, the government will cut the programs that you rely on -- and also raise your taxes.

And then we will have social unrest in the country.

We need to tackle our trade imbalance. Because it is our "free" trade policy that has cost us jobs, and the tax revenue that people generate when they have good jobs.

Chaining the CPI is a fools' gold. It will make the president and Congress feel like they have solved a problem when they have only made it worse. Seniors spend their Social Security money or repay it in taxes. That money stays in our economy. Relatively little of it is spent on new shoes from China or new cars from Japan, etc. It's spent on groceries and bus fare and things like that. Seniors that have incomes over $40,000 pay a lot if not all of their Social Security back into the general fund in the form of taxes.

http://moneyover55.about.com/od/taxtips/a/Social-Security-Taxation-for-Marrieds-Case-Study-3.htm

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #214)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 05:04 AM

216. I don't disagree

But going over the cliff should not be celebrated because a lot of people are going to suffer.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:38 AM

55. I was just thinking about cuts to the Section 8 program

Lots of people will lose that I guess

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:35 AM

85. I am 48 and have two kids and an 81 year old mother who lives with me.

Thanks for throwing me and my whole family under a bus so that you can have your increases be .05 x's higher than otherwise.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:41 AM

14. Cuts due to the so-called "fiscal cliff" can be undone in January

Cuts made in a compromise can't be undone - we'll have them forever.

Both hurt poor people and cause people to go hungry.

I'd rather have cuts that can be undone.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:45 AM

16. If you can't feed your kids for the first few weeks in January

That can't be undone. The chained CPI CAN be undone if the Dems retake the House in '14 or '16.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:47 AM

17. We won't retake the house

due to gerrymandering.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:03 AM

30. +1

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Response to gollygee (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:09 AM

39. +1, n/t

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Response to gollygee (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:51 AM

20. Good post

We can pick up the pieces from the fiscal cliff. Undoing the damage to social security will be very difficult.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:37 AM

87. The fact that they are making these 'cuts' now implies that they could be

undone. Otherwise, how are they being done now?

And what PROOF does anyone have that whatever panicked deal they come up with in January will be so much better than whatever panicked deal they come up with NOW? Because of small changes in the make up of the House?

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Response to renie408 (Reply #87)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:40 AM

91. Why do you put the word "panicked" in front of the deal for January

instead of now? I think the panic is now, and yes the house makeup is worse now, so for those two reasons now will be worse.

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Response to renie408 (Reply #87)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:23 AM

147. The fiscal cliff talk will be no more come January

and the attention will then shift to towards Sequestration.

That is how we know. If that is confusing, that is understandable.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:49 AM

18. reminding people about the unemployment benifits

and the rest will brand you as a right wing troll.

God forbid you care about those in poverty...it is just not done on this board.

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Response to Riftaxe (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:55 AM

24. Nice broad brush you swing there.

But you are of course, quite wrong.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #24)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:57 AM

26. It is my understanding unemployment benefits are one of

the things on the chopping block.

As a matter of a fact, i think i can back that up...care to do the same?

go away troll

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Response to Riftaxe (Reply #26)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:11 AM

40. You say Duers don't care about those in poverty, then respond to me with a personal attack?

Atypical.

Sorry, edited to finish point.

At no place in this thread will you find me disagreeing that UI benefits are on the chopping block. Why answer as you did?

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Response to Melinda (Reply #40)


Response to Riftaxe (Reply #41)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:24 AM

47. ....

Sorry, but I haven't the interest to continue this discussion. I don't like confrontation of any kind, and even more so with strangers on the net. Take care, goodbye.

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Response to Riftaxe (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:56 AM

25. Many, many people relying on social security are poor

You're aware of that, right? Not wanting cuts to social security IS because we care about the poor.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #25)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:01 AM

28. Oh dear, i suspect i am a hell of a lot more aware of

it then you.

If you care about the poor and those in poverty you are not the average DU'r anyways.

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Response to Riftaxe (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:06 AM

36. You're making some huge assumptions about me

You don't know me or what work I do.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #25)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:02 AM

29. Look this is a lose lose situation for the poor

we are simply arguing which is more palatable (morbid but a grim reality). Going over the cliff means all the tax cuts expire which means revenue is actually coming in for a change.

Would that stall the economy? Possibly, especially along with the sequestration. But what is proposed to be done to social security and who knows what else in this "compromise" is far worse.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:04 AM

32. There is no arguing that

However, does not mean we have to smile while it goes down.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:04 AM

33. +1

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:22 AM

46. So you're arguing that it is better

that people lose essential benefits in 2 weeks than a slight reduction in benefits, which can be undone when the Dems retake the House, in 20 years time.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #46)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:25 AM

49. The damage done to the US postal service

has yet to be undone....

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Response to gollygee (Reply #25)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:06 AM

35. Well said

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Response to gollygee (Reply #25)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:26 PM

193. Yup, and I am one of the poor collecting social security. n/t

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Response to Riftaxe (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:20 AM

140. God forbid you use Republican logic

"I am only passing these tax cuts for the rich, because I care about those in poverty."

That was never a believeable defensee for Bush, and it is not a believable defense for Obama. It's nothing but political cover, using the poor as a shield to benefit the wealthy.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:00 AM

27. Yours is exactly the reaction Obama is counting on to let him cut SS for everybody

 

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:27 AM

51. So being concerned about people

losing essential benefits in 2 weeks is better that a slight reduction in SS benefits in 20 years.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:40 AM

58. Nothing could say better how Obama is turning needy people against each other in order to

 

Protect the oligarchy from feeling the slightest twinge of pain. ANY cut to SS is totally unnecessary, and it will eventually affect everyone who relies on SS in the future, hurting the vast majority of us. If we don't fight this proposal tooth and nail now, the fiscal cliff is only the beginning of the pain. Obama is counting on dividing and conquering us so he can appease the Repugs, who won't be satisfied until social safety net programs are totally decimated. Maybe you're willing to go along with it and be grateful for the temporary crumbs you get in return for zero future security, I am not.

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #58)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:18 AM

71. So everything in Obama's fault.

It's not the fault of those on the left who stayed home in 2010 and let the GOP take control of the House?

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #71)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:11 AM

132. It IS Obama's fault. He's making a totally unnecessary concession. If he hadn't been doing that

 

from day one of his administration, if he had been an advocate for the 99% instead of the 1%, if he hadn't made nice with Republicans instead of criticizing his own base, maybe more people would have bothered to vote in 2010 instead of feeling that it didn't really matter whom they voted for after all.

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #132)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:14 AM

135. The President is not perfect

but not everything is his fault. The problem is that after the 2008 election most on the left thought they had done their job and went home. At the same time the Tea Party mobilized.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #135)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:22 AM

144. That was then. Obama has now been reelected with a comfortable margin. Yet he is still offering

 

up a totally unnecessary concession to the Repugs. That IS his fault, that is totally on Obama, and it better make you think about what else he is willing to give up to them in the next four years, if we don't all stand together and say that any cuts that hurt any of us hurt all of us!

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #144)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:35 AM

159. Sorry but that is not reality

You seem to think that if the President takes an uncompromising stand the GOP will eventually bend to his will. That is just not going to happen.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #159)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:48 AM

169. Please don't attribute thought to me that I don't have. What I do think is that Obama offering

 

totally unnecessary -- do you get that? TOTALLY UNNECESSARY! -- SS cuts to the Repugs signals his willingness to keep going until they have everything they want, which is to pull the safety net out from everyone. Obama appears to have very little will to stand up to Repugs at all, unless he is giving a campaign speech trying to get Dems to elect or reelect him. When push comes to shove, Obama doesn't even wait for Repugs to demand something, he offers it up first.

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #169)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:51 AM

173. Again that is your opinion.

You don't know what or what is not necassary or unnecessary. You seem to be coming from a view that everything the President does is bad.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #173)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:02 PM

182. No it is REALITY. SS has NOTHING to do with the deficit. That is a fact.

 

And once again, you attribute views to me that I don't have instead of sticking to the particular issues under discussion.

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #182)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:07 PM

185. That is true.

And we still don't know if SS will be part of the final deal.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #71)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:32 PM

194. the left didn't stay home in 2010..

your beef is with young voters, minorities, and women. they stayed home in 2010.

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Response to frylock (Reply #194)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:56 PM

208. Maybe so

But I recall many on this board who said they were not voting in 2010.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #208)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:36 PM

211. Democrats Try to Crack Mystery of the Missing Voters

A popular theory of this year's midterm election holds that Democrats took a shellacking in part because big chunks of the party's core liberal base, discouraged at the path of the Obama administration, stayed home rather than show up to vote as they did in 2008.

It's an interesting narrative. It also doesn't appear to be entirely accurate.

While it's correct that some key parts of the Democratic coalition—young voters and African-Americans among them—didn't perform as they did in 2008, evidence emerging as the dust settles from this month's election suggests the bigger hole in the side of the Democratic ship came from moderates in the political center who didn't show up. (Those absences were in addition to the wave of independent swing voters also from the center who, exit polls showed, turned out but switched their votes to the Republicans.)

<more>

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703559504575630453372436666.html

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:13 AM

65. No one is cheering about either option

because it hurts the poor either way. But for once we have to think the long term. We are here at this point because of the choices of the past (extension of Bush tax cuts, Payroll holiday). Worst part is that Social Security has nothing to do with the general deficit.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:16 AM

69. And the long term is that

any changes to SS can be undone by a future congress.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #69)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:29 AM

78. The problem is it won't.

There is a large faction of both parties that wants to see it done away with or weaken it to the point it is useless for people.

Neo-liberal beliefs are a poison to both political parties.

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #78)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:04 AM

123. You don't know that.

You're making an assumption and a very extreme one as well.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #123)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:12 AM

133. You're making by far the more dangerous and unsupportable assumption, all to defend a president

 

who doesn't deserve it.

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #133)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:19 AM

139. In your opinion.

Actually I've said little to defend the President. I've been talking about the issues. It's you who brought up the President.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #139)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:24 AM

149. It all comes down to him.

 

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:20 AM

141. in that case he's won. (If that's his agenda)

Because I'll call every Democratic Congresscritter (Senators Mikulski & Cardin and Rep. Van Hollen) I have and the WH switchboard to say I support the chained-CPI if it gets my UI extended as long as the Bush tax-cut extension for earners over $250K is not on the table.

We can change the CPI again later. We're going to kill the poor now if we don't make a deal.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #141)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:33 AM

157. Good luck to you.

In a perfect world your unemployment benefits should be extended without any cuts to SS. But we don't live in a perfect world so we have to make a deal that helps the most people now. Any fixes can be done by a future congress.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:04 AM

31. I work in SNAP, there are no changes coming, cliff or no cliff.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:05 AM

34. Thank you for clearing that up

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:06 AM

37. Hey Puzzledtraveller,

when would sequestration kick in for the SNAP program? Lots of misinformation floating around.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #37)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:22 AM

45. If the 2012 Farm Bill does not pass, then the previous Farm Bill remains in effect

The Farm Bill (covers SNAP benefits) is up for renewal every 5 years. If it does not pass Congress by January 1, the previous Bill remains in effect... no changes for now. Farmers and others not happy with this bill either... little to no chance it passes as is.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #37)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:24 AM

48. It kicks in immediately.

There is a $7.7 billion reduction in the program for 2013 if the sequestration happens. Some here are trying to deny that reality but it will happen if we go over the cliff.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #48)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:06 AM

219. you seem to be spreading misinformation.

 

A number of key mandatory programs are exempt from sequestration, including Social Security, Medicaid, CHIP, SNAP (formerly known as the Food Stamp Program), child nutrition, Supplemental Security Income (SSI), refundable tax credits such as the Earned Income Tax Credit, veterans' benefits, and federal retirement.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3557

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #219)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 07:52 AM

224. No I made a mistake

The federal program is not being cut. The problem is that aid to states is being cut and as a result state programs are taking a hit.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:39 AM

56. Really?

I have a friend who got a letter last week stating that her benefits will be cut in half starting the first week of the year. Since the program is administered on the state level maybe they are doing things differently. But the sequester calls for a $7.7 Billion reduction in 2013. It is denying reality to think that it won't have an immediate impact on some people.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #56)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:44 AM

60. From whom specifically did she get the letter?

I'm worried that we're being put in the middle of a divide-and-conquer game. Like they're trying to get people who are struggling fighting against other people who are struggling to see which one wins between those two, so that both groups keep their eyes off them as they make cuts to all the programs people count on.

I think the idea that this is a fight between social security and food stamps is intentional disinformation.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #60)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:16 AM

68. Absolutely

"I think the idea that this is a fight between social security and food stamps is intentional disinformation"

Do you want your hand or foot cut off ?

What kind of choice is that?

Social Security has nothing to do with the general deficit. Can we all agree on this one point? If not, the misinformation is working....

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Response to gollygee (Reply #60)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:28 AM

77. From whatever government agency

administrates the program. I didn't see the letter, she only told me about it.

And that there is a difference between cuts to food stamps, unemployment and other benefits that will happen in 2 weeks vs. an average reduction of $50 per month in 20 years is not disinformational. It is reality. SS changes can be fixed and reversed by a future Congress before anyone is harshly affected. But even if Congress reverses the sequestration in Febuary, there are millions who will suffer for the first few weeks of the year.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #77)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:35 AM

84. Stop spreading your stupid bullshit up and down this thread,

 

Food stamps and Medicaid are shield from sequestration, I and others have linked to articles that state that specifically. Medicare cuts are cuts to providers, not patients. Extension of federal unemployment insurance is not part of sequestration, but rather part of this grand bargain being concocted and may or may not be part of the final deal.

Again, this all has been proven through links by multiple posters.

Meanwhile, cuts to SS will effect generations, badly.

So stop trying to scare people into a bad deal that is against their best interests. Stop spreading your stupid, Third Way, DLC, neoliberal, disproven bullshit up and down this thread and on these boards.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #84)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:48 AM

101. It's not just Food Stamps and Medicare

It's extened unemployment insurance that will end in January. It cuts to housing assistance and energy subsidies for low-income people. It's the more than 200,000 children who could be dropped from the Head Start program

That's the reality of the situation and you're efforts to censor me because it doesn't fit with your partisan ideology will not succeed.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #101)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:55 AM

111. And again, none of it takes place right away,

 

Federal agencies are looking to delay the cuts if we go over the fiscal cliff, in order to allow time and space for true legislation to take place instead of this governance by crisis.

Furthermore, the amount of money cut out of programs is not going to happen all at once, but rather be spread out over a ten year period, giving Congress time to reverse the effects and retroactively reinstate benefits.

And again, as far as the unemployment extension goes, it isn't part of sequestration, but rather it is part of the grand bargain that is currently being negotiated. We have no idea whether it will or won't be included, but if it isn't, as you say, it expires at the end of January, and a deal can be done separately in order to extend it.

Stop spreading your disinformation.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #111)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:03 AM

120. Some will take place right away.

People are already getting letters informing them of benefit cuts in 2 weeks. Some who have received them have commented on this thread. And if those things can be undone, any change to SS can be undone by a future Congress.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #120)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:11 AM

130. Really? Then scan the letter and let us see it,

 

Because the frank fact of the matter is that SNAP and other such programs are only going to be cut 10% at most over the next ten years. If that is the case, then there is no way that you "friend" can be getting her benefits slashed in half, at least at the federal level. Sounds more like this is something happening in her state.

And yes, those changes can be undone, and as I've shown, various federal agencies are ready to delay cuts if we go over the cliff.

Reality, it's your friend.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #130)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:22 AM

145. Yes it was from a state agency.

But I'm not at liberty to scan someone else's private mail.

And I agree that any changes can be undone including changes to SS. But I rather see a change that can be undone long before people will see a significant impact than ones that will impact people in 2 weeks. That is the reality.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #145)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:41 AM

164. Thank you, you finally admitted that at least one thing that you're posting is BS

 

A state agency, nothing to do with the federal government, nothing to do with the fiscal cliff.

So when are you going to admit that the rest of what you're spewing is BS as well?

Oh, and again, as I've shown you time and again, the sequestration cuts are not going to effect everybody all at once, in two weeks. Again, federal agencies are willing to suspend the cuts if we go over the cliff in order to allow time and space for real negotiations, not these contrived, rushed deals we have now. Oh, and again, the cuts take place all at once, but over ten years.

Stop spreading the bullshit. Just stop.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #164)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:56 AM

178. Stop trying to censor me.

And state food stamp programs get funding from the federal government. Same as extended unemployment insurance. The states administrate them but they're funded by the federal governemt. So anyone in those programs IS going to see a cut in 2 weeks.

You're the one spreading the BS here. You rather win some imagined partisan victory that help real people in need who are going to be immediately impacted if we go off the cliff.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #120)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:53 AM

222. not true at all

stop it

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Response to MadHound (Reply #84)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:54 AM

107. +1

Thanks MadHound!

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Response to MadHound (Reply #84)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:04 AM

122. +Graham's Number

Such transparent bullshit...

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Response to MadHound (Reply #84)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:51 AM

172. +1 nt

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Response to MadHound (Reply #84)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:09 PM

187. Thank you. You speak for me too. n/t

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #77)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:42 AM

94. We are not going to have Congress on our side any time in the foreseeable future

due to gerrymandering. We just won't.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #94)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:43 AM

97. Maybe not in 2 years

But maybe in 4 or 6 or 8.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #97)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:49 AM

103. I doubt it

Most of those seats are very very secure, and we can't undo the gerrymandering unless we gain control of the House. We can't get the House because of the gerrymandering. It's a circular problem but there is no solution any time certainly within a generation or so. We need major population changes and shifts for any chance at all.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #103)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:55 AM

112. It may take 10 years

but it will happen. And there are major population shifts happening.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #112)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:02 AM

119. In 10 years

A lot more than just cuts to Social Security will have taken place. They'll start with cuts here, and then they'll manufacture another scare term, and then they'll want cuts someplace else, and they'll say, "This is perfectly reasonable. You made cuts to Social Security last time." We can't give ground on these things. Look at Ryan's budget if you want to see what they want our economy to look like.

Also, 10 years (at least) of cuts to poor people on social security is better than a month of cuts to poor people on food stamps?

The only people who should be having cuts are the top earners. We can't willingly give ground on cuts to anyone. If something happens due to a calendar, we can undo it. We can't undo anything done on purpose.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #119)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:09 AM

128. That is supposition

Let's deal in current reality.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #128)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:10 AM

129. Current reality is that we can't undo social security cuts and won't be able to in the foreseeable

future. Current reality is that Congress is not going to keep people without food stamps. Any thought that we might ever be able to retake the house is supposition.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #129)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:24 AM

148. So your saying that GOP

is going to control the House forever. That the Dems will never win a majority there ever again. Sorry but history would tend to dispute you.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #148)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:26 AM

151. Probably not forever

but 20, 30 years? I don't know how long it'll take. They've gerrymandered the districts and there are trends pointing to eventual demographic changes that will change things but they're way out on the horizon. "Forever" was hyperbole, I'll admit.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #60)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:43 AM

96. Agreed. The intention disinfo program is harmful. n/t

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #56)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:54 AM

61. I think it's the difference between SNAP receiving cuts in the program

and the effects of other budgetary measures, state and federal that may result in the reduction of benefits for some recipients. That may be possible. As for the program itself SNAP is not part of the sequestration. So you may be correct in your thinking, as another poster replied but not exactly in the manor it would happen.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #61)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:22 AM

73. But there is still a $7.7 Billion cut to Food Stamps

in the sequestration. To think that is not going to have an immediate impact for some is naive.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:18 AM

42. Wrong, wrong, and wrong

The UI and food stamps are unrelated to the sequester and to the tax cuts. They can be dealt with separately.

The medicare cuts are to providers, not beneficiaries.

Please read up.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #44)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:27 AM

52. Articles still missing the mark

Like Social Security, these issues are foisted into fiscal talks for no reason. They do not happen as part of the sequester or expiration of Bush tax cuts.

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Response to Report1212 (Reply #52)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:32 AM

54. They are part of the sequester

Whether you're willing to admit it or not.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:41 AM

59. According to this link, SNAP (food stamps) are NOT affected by the sequester.

http://www.nwlc.org/resource/roadmap-upcoming-federal-budget-debates


January 2, 2013: Automatic, across-the-board spending cuts – known as sequestration (or “the sequester”) – are scheduled to begin. The sequester would cut $109.3 billion from the federal budget each year between 2013 and 2021, divided equally between defense and non-defense programs.

While Social Security benefits and key mandatory programs for low-income people (including Medicaid and SNAP/Food Stamps) generally would be exempt from sequestration, discretionary programs that women and their families depend on – such as Head Start, child care, and women’s health services – could be slashed dramatically, cutting jobs and services for millions. In 2013, sequestration would cut a total of $38.5 billion from non-defense discretionary programs (an 8.4 percent cut).

The sequester was established by the Budget Control Act (BCA), enacted in August 2011 in response to demands from some Members of Congress who threatened to refuse to raise the national debt ceiling. In the name of deficit reduction, the BCA requires about $2 trillion in spending cuts – but zero new revenues – over ten years. More than half of these cuts ($1.2 trillion) are to be enforced through sequestration.

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Response to yodermon (Reply #59)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:34 AM

83. Thank you for the link

that should clear up some of the confusion.

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Response to yodermon (Reply #59)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:53 AM

174. +1 nt

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Response to yodermon (Reply #59)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:40 PM

197. but but my friend got a letter..

don't know where it came from or what it sez, but teh letters!!1

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:08 AM

63. Stop spreading disinformation

 

People won't lose their food stamps, or Medicaid, those are shielded from sequestration. Medicare cuts will effect providers.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/11/29/news/economy/fiscal-cliff-spending-cuts/index.html

As far as the extension of the emergency unemployment benefits go, that is not part of sequestration, that is a deal that is on the table to be part of avoiding the fiscal cliff.

Furthermore, you are neglecting to mention that all of these cuts, to both the military and domestic spending will be spread out over ten years, they won't take place all at once, immediately on January 1st. You are also neglecting to mention that various federal agencies are now ready to hold off on the cuts if we go over the cliff in order to provide lawmakers time to get a deal done. Furthermore, you also neglect to mention that all of these cuts can be dealt with retroactively, thus a person might experience a bit of short term pain for a week or two(if the federal agencies don't hold off the cuts), but will get all that money or assistance back once a true deal is done.

The only, one and only thing that has to be dealt with before the end of this year is the Alternative Minimum Tax patch, and that does not effect the poor and needy, but rather the middle class and upper middle class.

Finally I find it reprehensible that you are here spreading disinformation in an effort to scare people into a bad deal that will lower the quality of life for the elderly for generations to come. How dare you try and take food out of my mouth, out of their mouth in our old age! Have you no shame? How stupid is it to advocate short term gain at the expense of long term pain.

So please, stop trying to spread your bullshit here, it won't work. Take your Third Way, DLC, neo-liberal scare tactics and shove them. . . well, you can fill in the rest from there.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #63)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:26 AM

75. MadHound

that is exactly how I understand the situation. We already have been down this road where short term pain was averted when the tax cuts were extended. We are back at this point again, and if the tax cuts are not allowed to expire we will be at this point again. Everyone that visits DU and actively posts here should know that Social Security has nothing to do with the general deficit. If this one fact people can't accept we have a lot of work to do to thwart the disinformation floating around...

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #90)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:59 AM

116. Stop spreading your disinformation,

 

Even one of the blogs you linked to mentioned that sequestration cuts are to be spread out over ten years.

And as I've proven, federal agencies are looking to delay the cuts if we go over the cliff in order to allow Congress the time and space to work out a deal.

Stop spreading your Third Way/DLC/neoliberal bullshit.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #63)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:54 AM

175. +1000 nt

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:17 AM

70. So old people are to be the sacrificial lambs. Gotcha. That's the new meme around here.

 

And it's soooooooooooooooooo liberal and progressive!

Just one little thing you're conveniently forgetting.

Everyone who manages to live long enough will one day go over the jagged-edged cliff that Obama has prepared for old people. So your concern about everyone else now is laughably phoney.

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Response to forestpath (Reply #70)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:33 AM

81. So the poor and unemployed or sacrificial lambs instead.

How liberal and progressive of you.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #81)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:46 AM

100. No one should be a sacrificial lamb

We can undo anything that happens due to the so-called "fiscal cliff", but we can't undo any changes made to social security. We will never have enough seats in Congress due to gerrymandering. Any changes made to social security will be 1) permanent, and 2) just the tip of the iceberg. The neocon plan is to get rid of things like social security, and food stamps, and unemployment, and medicare, permanently. We can see things happen without giving in, and then fix it, without giving them any leeway. But we can't be a part of intentionally getting rid of any of those programs or we open the floodgates. Within a generation, all of those protections could be gone. It's happened in other countries that follow the economic plan that the Republicans want us to follow.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #100)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:52 AM

106. Why?

Why can Congress not undo one thing but can undo something else. You're condradicting yourself. There is no logic in your arguement.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #106)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:54 AM

108. The Republicans won't vote en masse to end food stamps

Those will be reinstated. That isn't a compromise, and enough Republicans won't win their seats (in the Republican primary against other Republicans) if they get rid of Food stamps in January that they'll reinstate them. No Democrats will get their seats, but other Republicans will.

There is no way to reverse a compromise we make now on Social Security. We will never have the votes to undo that.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #108)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:57 AM

114. That is not logical

One hand your saying Congress can't do something and on the other hand you're saying the can.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #114)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:03 AM

121. You must not know much about Congress

They will have enough votes to do thing A, but they won't have enough votes to do thing B. That's how Congress works.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #121)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:27 AM

152. Yes it does.

And what they don't have enough votes for thing B now, they may have in a future Congess.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #81)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:48 AM

102. You are the ones insisting it is either/or. One day everyone will go over Obama's cliff.

 

So you really aren't concerned about protecting anyone except President Obama in his cruelty.

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Response to forestpath (Reply #102)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:54 AM

110. I see more cruelty

in those here who want to go over the fiscal cliff to win an ideological victory despite that it will cause suffer for millions of the needy in the next few weeks.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #110)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:06 AM

124. The cruelty is using seniors for scapegoats. That's what you and President Obama are doing.

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #124)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:25 AM

150. So it is better to make the poor and needy scapegoats now.

That's what you are doing.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:24 AM

74. True, why is anyone even putting that on the table?

the same people who are saying how it is horrible to even put the slightest modification on SS on the table are at the same time advocating this. There's a down side and an up side either way.

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Response to treestar (Reply #74)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:34 AM

82. Because

They rather score an ideological, partsan win than really help people in need.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #82)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:44 AM

98. Saving Social Security is

more than just an ideological victory.

The program's genesis was based on the high percentage of elderly in the U.S. that lived in poverty (greater than 50% based on some estimates).

Attacking the foundation out of this great program is a direct attack against those in poverty.


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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #98)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:50 AM

104. So the hell with the poor and needy now?

That is trying to score an ideological victory now. If if you're not willing to admit it.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #104)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:56 AM

113. A chained CPI is immediate once in place

It hurts the poor and needy now and well into the future.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #113)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:00 AM

117. And it can always be reversed

long before there is significant impact.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #117)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:22 AM

143. It'll NEVER be reversed

But I can see we're talking ourselves blue in the face trying to convince you of the reality.

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Response to durablend (Reply #143)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:36 AM

161. It's not reality to say

it will never be reversed. I'm not saying that it definately would be. I'm just saying that it is possible in the future.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #113)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:07 AM

125. Yes it is immediate.

Someone getting $1000 a month will get a COLA increase of $27 instead of $30. And the future impact is greater. But that can always be undone by a future congress. Versus those who will lose substantial benefits that they need to live on in two weeks.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #125)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:16 AM

137. Their has to be a political will for that to be undone

Republicans have no interest in cooperating with undoing the CPI or even some blue dog Democrats.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #137)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:39 AM

163. But we can create that political will

It may take years to do so and change congress but it can happen. It took years for women to get the right to vote but it happened. It took a century for civil rights but it happened. It took years for gay marrige but it is happening. The CPI change can be undone, we just have to make it happen.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:31 AM

80. This is the same phony 'hide behind the poor' bullshit we heard two years ago, when

all the corporate Democrats suddenly cared SO MUCH about extending unemployment benefits, and refused to acknowledge that the Republicans had backed down from that fight every time in the past, and their threats were empty.

'We can't let those Bush Tax Cuts expire on us--er, I mean the wealthy, you guys-- we're only thinking of the POOR!!!'.

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Response to Marr (Reply #80)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:37 AM

88. Not phoney if you're dependant on Food Stamps or

extended unemployment benefits.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #88)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:00 AM

118. Food stamp are shielded. If you run out of benefits you qualify for help

What you are doing is neither liberal or progressive. I want the fucking cliff. For Obama and these fucking politicians to steal from elderly and disabled on SS and Veterans on a pension is a fucking disgrace. This stupid evil deal steals from the most vulnerable to pay for a fucking debt that they DON"T FUCKING OWE.

Fuck it, time for everyone to suffer. Not just their fucking sacrificial lambs.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #118)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:29 AM

155. So it is OK

that the poor and needy suffer now so you can win an ideological victory. Thanks for making my point.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #155)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:42 AM

165. So it's okay that the poor and needy suffer so you can win an ideological victory?

So you can win on tax break for the wealthy? YOU made my point very well.

As for people who run out of unemployment benefits? Guess what! They qualify for food stamps and financial aid. And once again food stamps and medicare are shielded as has been pointed out several times in this thread so children are not going to go hungry. You have no point, unless you call lies and distortion a point.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #165)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:01 PM

181. When did I ever advocate for tax cuts for the wealthy.

Please show me when I ever said that. You're the one who is lying and distorting. Not me.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #181)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:10 PM

188. If you want this deal, which does nothing but harm the needy, yeah this deal is to

steal from the ones who need the most help to pay for their fucking tax breaks. A debt that the poor and needy don't owe. It has been verified several times in this thread that your OP is not the truth and yet you persist in peddling it . I am done arguing with you anddo have a nice holiday.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #188)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:14 PM

189. Going off the fiscal cliff harms the needy

and does so in two weeks. And the deal raises taxes on the wealthy. You're the one not peddling the truth here, not me.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #189)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:16 PM

190. I'm done, have a nice holiday n/t

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:38 AM

89. How Dare You...

...inject reality into this matter? Not only is sequestration very real and will start being felt by millions January 1...but we'll face one cliff after another. The "fun" one will be the debt ceiling where if the rushpublicans don't agree to raising it the government will shut down. No one will get checks...Social Security, Medicare...anything. Government services will close. Add to this the markets going south that will tighten credit that could lead to recession. I'm told this is fear mongering...bullshit! It's very real for a lot of people and the rushpublicans will gladly destroy peoples lives and the economy to protect their rich benefactors and make life as difficult on this administration as possible.

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Response to KharmaTrain (Reply #89)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:40 AM

92. Sequestration doesn't work in the manner you describe

the misinformation is working. I highly recommend you read this thread thoroughly and then offer any new insights you have because knee jerk reactions is exactly what they are hoping for using a term like "Fiscal cliff". They are trying to manufacture a visceral reaction rather than a logical one.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #92)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:15 AM

136. The Debt Ceiling Is Separate From Sequestration...

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/subjects/n/national_debt_us/index.html

That's more a fiscal wall than a cliff. If the ceiling isn't raised sometime in January or early February the government will come to a halt. I always read threads before I respond...and there's tons of misinformation about the whole budget process being thrown out around here. I'll stick with credible sources like Dr. Howard Dean and Robert Reich who are very concerned about the debt ceiling and how not coming to some kind of a deal there will create a lot of needless hardships for a lot of people...

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Response to KharmaTrain (Reply #136)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:21 AM

142. That is the point

We don't need a deal (eg. chained CPI and who knows what else) because sequestration can be dealt with separately and the fiscal cliff is a manufactured crisis. In other words you agree yes?

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #142)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:28 AM

154. The "Cliff" Is...The Debt Ceiling Isn't...

That's the disconnect here. Sequestration would take a while to fully implement and I think we agree that we could live with the cuts...especially on the defense side. My dream is one day people will pay attention to the billions squandered on corporate welfare that comes out of the pockets of the middle and lower classes, but that's another issue another day.

The Debt Ceiling is very much real and one that has to be addressed. It's similar to the games that Clinton and Gingrich played in '95 that led to a government shut down. In that case it backfired on the rushpublicans...and it may again...but at a cost to millions in the interim. The government will "go broke"...it won't be able to pay its bills...its credit rating will sink that will raise credit rates and the government won't be able to print checks that will hurt those who live check to check. It's not a scenario I want to see...nor does this administration...and that's at the heart of this current battle. Without the rushpublicans voting to raise the debt ceiling the government hits this real wall...and they can and will try to extort for bigger cuts. So you pick your poison here...if you have to deal something to get something, what do you deal?

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Response to KharmaTrain (Reply #154)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:37 AM

162. The debt ceiling can be dealt with

but agreeing to a chained CPI for social security does nothing for the debt ceiling or little with the general deficit. That is what some people don't understand....

It is a false choice in other words done to induce hysteria and confusion.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #162)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:25 PM

192. Confusion Is The Politician's Best Friend...

We're seeing a lot of that confusion here as we have several balls in the air at once here and it's all clumped together. I've said before and will continue to say that the CPI and SS should not be anywhere near the table here as the SS fund remains solvent and shouldn't be touch as it had nothing to do with creating the deficit that's at the root of this financial game. Most of that deficit was created by dubya's wars for profits and the big tax giveaways to the rich...and a good round of cuts to the corporate welfare system would go a long way in clearing up those debts, but there's no way that will fly in the rushpublican congress.

The debt ceiling HAS to be dealt with...and WILL affect almost everyone...especially those in the biggest need. There will need to be a ceiling extension passed through the House and that means convincing at least 25 or so rushpublicans along with all Democrats (no easy feat)...so what do you deal to get those 25 votes? It's gonna boil down to that...to keep the government solvent, what cuts will have to be made in social programs to get a deal?

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Response to KharmaTrain (Reply #192)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:38 PM

196. I think that based on what happened last

time the Democrats may take a different approach with dealing the debt ceiling. Hard to say at this point.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #196)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:57 PM

200. The Last Time...

...they negotiated the deal that's expiring now. It kicked the can past the elections. Looks like the "cliff" negotiations are breaking down...again. Supposedly CPI is off the table...and hopefully will remain that way.

For the rushpublicans the debt ceiling in the House and the changes in the filibuster rule in the Senate are their lines in the sand. I'm hopeful we can bust their asses but I don't see it happening. Remember, Boner has little real control on his caucus. The teabaggers wag the dog here...and they're more than happy to see the country go to hell. Stay tuned and happy holidays!

Cheers...

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Response to KharmaTrain (Reply #89)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:41 AM

93. LOL nt

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #93)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:50 AM

105. And that right there is the response...

The U.S. media is terrible for this very reason. Outside the U.S. foreign outlets are able to lay out exactly how sequestration will work and words like the "fiscal cliff" are dismissed as jargon used to intimidate.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:54 AM

109. Tell it! But you have to assume that everyone who's carping is really a "liberal" or "progressive".

Afterall, it's the internet, where people can take on any character they choose.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #109)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:09 AM

127. Ah... and here come the folks

desperate to endorse anything to put the president in a good light.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #127)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:14 AM

220. The President is Good Light.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #109)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:55 AM

177. As msanthrope would quip: "you Better Believe It!"

Blame Obama for everything while giving Republicans a pass smells Libertarian to me.... but what would I know?

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Response to great white snark (Reply #177)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:18 PM

213. !!!!





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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:59 AM

115. absolute bullshit

threatening to kill the hostages is bullshit.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:23 AM

146. Nonsense.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #146)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:28 AM

153. being lied to?

no, I think the OP is Maria Bartiromo adapting her sales pitch to DU.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #153)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:34 AM

158. Maybe..

.. or maybe not. I have no reason to make that kind of accusation. Perhaps you do?

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:32 AM

156. by this logic there are no limits on GOP power

they can simply threaten to kill the hostages and there's nothing we can do about it.

I find that a SUSPICIOUS argument to hear on DU, that democrats have no choice but to give the Republicans everything they want.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #156)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:44 AM

167. No saying the chained CPI

can never be undone is saying that there are no limits to GOP power.

And how is raising taxes on the rich, extending unemployment benefits, spending for infrastucture, etc. giving the GOP everything it wants?

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:36 AM

160. How will this affect unemployment?

Is it just extended unemployment benefits that will be affected? I was laid off at the end of November so I haven't been collecting for long (I haven't even seen a payment yet), will I be affected by this?

I'm hoping to find employment soon, but there's no guarantee.

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Response to drm604 (Reply #160)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:48 AM

170. I'm not certain about this

so you may want to check with your state unemployment office but right now you'll only recieve 6 months of benefits. For the last several years Congress has extended those benefits for up to a total of 99 weeks in some states. If they go off the fiscal cliff, anyone who has exhusted their regular benefits and is currently recieving extended benefits will lose them.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #170)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:28 PM

204. I'm concerned most about my immediate benefits; the next few weeks or months.

Come hell or high water I'll have something within 6 months. I already have some part time work to supplement the UC.

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Response to drm604 (Reply #160)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:50 AM

171. My neighbor ran out of employment benefits 2 weeks ago, She applied for aid

she received her food stamp card and TANIF ( cash) benefits yesterday. She also is getting LEAP which will help pay her heating. You should receive your unemployment benefits just fine. When the cliff diving happens the pukes should come to their senses real quick when it is hung right around their necks. When newtie boy shut down the government under Clinton, I still received my unemployment benefits although one check was a week late.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #171)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:05 PM

184. Good for her.

But for many it is not so simple. Plus there are many other programs that will be cut. You seems to be relying that the GOP will somehow see the light in January and cave. Recent history shows that it won't happen.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:43 AM

166. So, what do you propose? That we go along with the Democrats caving..again?

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #166)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:59 AM

180. Compromise is not caving.

And it is intellectually dishonest to characterize it as such.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #180)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:04 PM

183. It is when you when you you give up the most.

So, what do you propose they compromise on without caving?

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #183)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:08 PM

186. How is it the most?

Please explain that.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #186)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:20 PM

191. Chained CPI, cutting more from SS than the military.

?o, where are you proposing they "compromise" and by how much?

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #191)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:53 PM

207. That's still not giving up the most.

You're focusing on one point the chained CPI, which is bad, but not the massive betrayal that some are saying it is. And there is still $1.2 Trillion in tax increases on the wealthy.

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Response to One of the 99 (Reply #207)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:20 PM

210. If it's not so important why are the Republicans and 3rd Way so focused on it?

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:48 AM

168. There are deals that would be worse for more people over the long run, in order to avoid the "cliff"

than would be harmed by our going over the "cliff".

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:54 AM

176. This old chestnut gets trotted out every time

All of the 1% thank One of the 99.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #176)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:58 AM

179. No that's the old chestnut

trying to insult and discredit anyone who disagrees with you.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:34 PM

195. Some would rather score a victory for their "team" than do something to help those in need.

It's happened before. Many here would rather shut everything down because they don't get exactly what they want when they want it, than cut a deal that involves any kind of compromise to protect the immediate needs of desperately needy people. It's shameful.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #195)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:44 PM

198. No that is not true at all

I am not vilifying those that support a chained CPI (I disagree with the rationale completely), so you should extend that courtesy to me at the very least.

But a compromise has to be something both sides are somewhat satisfied with. And more importantly, social security has nothing to do with the general deficit so why is this even part of the compromise.

Social security was created to help the elderly living in poverty. Protecting it is scoring political points? Really? No I don't agree at all. This is what I learned in my American civics class and American history class too.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #198)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:55 PM

199. I don't speak to any person in particular. However, there is a faction of the population --

and it crosses ideological and party lines -- that don't even like compromise, real compromise. Politics has become such that people want either total victory or total defeat, with total defeat being preferable to winning some and losing some.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #199)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:03 PM

203. We know the Tea party wants total victory

but that is the challenge both Obama and Boehner have. How do you reach a compromise when you have a faction that wants total victory? Look at the debt ceiling this past summer for a reminder.

A chained CPI for social security is simply off the mark for any compromise.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:59 PM

201. Neither is being endlessly blackmailed.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:01 PM

202. We need new much more co-operative ways to live and work in order to maximize tax-funded resources

of ALL kinds, including health & education, and to buffer whatever economic storms that are otherwise unavoidable.

I want to know who is interested in the most economically valuable and efficient form of exchange there is for those who are most economically dis-empowered and that would be direct exchange of Real Value/Work for Real Value/Work.

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:00 PM

209. So, the choices are..

Cuts to food stamps, unemployment insurance ect. or cuts to SS through a chained CPI. A kick in the nuts or a punch in the face.

The question is how did we get maneuvered into the spot where these are our only choices? Who led us to this fucked up no win situation?

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Response to One of the 99 (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:03 AM

218. Food stamps are exempt.

 

A number of key mandatory programs are exempt from sequestration, including Social Security, Medicaid, CHIP, SNAP (formerly known as the Food Stamp Program), child nutrition, Supplemental Security Income (SSI), refundable tax credits such as the Earned Income Tax Credit, veterans' benefits, and federal retirement.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3557

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