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Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:25 PM

I'm back home and I just feel raw.

Last edited Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:21 PM - Edit history (1)

I went into town to get my weekly grocery shopping done and to beat this storm that is headed this way. At the cash machine, there was a line. A couple, three women, a guy and me. While we were waiting, one of the ladies commented on trying to get everything done before the holiday had not be progressing well. I told her we hadn't even decorated this year since the grandchildren would be at their other grandparent's for Christmas. One of the ladies said something about its hard to even think about celebrating anything after this past week. Everyone nodded and one of the guys said, "It's been tough." We all kind of looked at each other and every single one of us had tears in our eyes. A group of total strangers, not a one of us under 50, standing in a store with tears streaming down our faces. It was as if a dam broke and we had a conversation about children, guns, and excess. One of the men said he would never have thought he would live to see the day that children could be slaughtered and that there would be people opposed to taking measures to make the world a little safer for them. All of us had grandchildren in the age range of those babies at Sandy Hook.

I live right in the middle of the country where people hunt. There's a shooting range about a mile to the NW of my home. People out and about today in my community and area are very somber. The mood is not festive at all but subdued. I do think that those who believe that there should be nothing done around firearms are underestimating how deeply this event has been felt and internalized by the nation.

"Something needs to change."

Yes it does.

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Reply I'm back home and I just feel raw. (Original post)
Skidmore Dec 2012 OP
Dalai_1 Dec 2012 #1
Hell Hath No Fury Dec 2012 #2
Skidmore Dec 2012 #3
Hell Hath No Fury Dec 2012 #4
GoCubsGo Dec 2012 #5
amuse bouche Dec 2012 #8
GoCubsGo Dec 2012 #10
marions ghost Dec 2012 #18
ailsagirl Dec 2012 #27
donquijoterocket Dec 2012 #43
ailsagirl Dec 2012 #51
tblue Dec 2012 #102
EmeraldCityGrl Dec 2012 #15
werknotgoin2takeit Dec 2012 #57
Mojorabbit Dec 2012 #71
thucythucy Dec 2012 #110
Mojorabbit Dec 2012 #117
calimary Dec 2012 #105
rivegauche Dec 2012 #6
amuse bouche Dec 2012 #9
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #7
Liberal_Dog Dec 2012 #11
CountAllVotes Dec 2012 #12
femrap Dec 2012 #40
Skidmore Dec 2012 #44
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #77
marions ghost Dec 2012 #13
grasswire Dec 2012 #14
ChiciB1 Dec 2012 #16
Arugula Latte Dec 2012 #17
Skidmore Dec 2012 #19
demokatgurrl Dec 2012 #31
robbob Dec 2012 #68
Beartracks Dec 2012 #92
liberalhistorian Dec 2012 #20
Skidmore Dec 2012 #22
femrap Dec 2012 #42
nolabear Dec 2012 #21
yellerpup Dec 2012 #23
ywcachieve Dec 2012 #24
Plaid Adder Dec 2012 #25
qanda Dec 2012 #26
calimary Dec 2012 #106
WillyT Dec 2012 #28
Care Acutely Dec 2012 #29
Skidmore Dec 2012 #30
frazzled Dec 2012 #32
Patiod Dec 2012 #33
Hermes Daughter Dec 2012 #81
MADem Dec 2012 #84
dixiegrrrrl Dec 2012 #39
Lilma Dec 2012 #34
Hekate Dec 2012 #35
Lilma Dec 2012 #36
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #37
OneMoreDemocrat Dec 2012 #38
Please proceed Dec 2012 #41
Still Sensible Dec 2012 #45
Jennicut Dec 2012 #46
Skidmore Dec 2012 #47
MissDeeds Dec 2012 #48
Skittles Dec 2012 #49
Jester Messiah Dec 2012 #50
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #52
ReRe Dec 2012 #53
Hekate Dec 2012 #58
ReRe Dec 2012 #67
blackspade Dec 2012 #54
lunasun Dec 2012 #97
werknotgoin2takeit Dec 2012 #55
rbrnmw Dec 2012 #119
pop topcan Dec 2012 #56
Hekate Dec 2012 #59
pop topcan Dec 2012 #63
neverforget Dec 2012 #91
thucythucy Dec 2012 #60
pop topcan Dec 2012 #66
Hoyt Dec 2012 #80
pop topcan Dec 2012 #85
Hoyt Dec 2012 #86
pop topcan Dec 2012 #88
Hekate Dec 2012 #83
pop topcan Dec 2012 #87
Skidmore Dec 2012 #95
pop topcan Dec 2012 #98
llmart Dec 2012 #72
Skidmore Dec 2012 #62
pop topcan Dec 2012 #65
sheshe2 Dec 2012 #69
WinkyDink Dec 2012 #100
thucythucy Dec 2012 #61
pop topcan Dec 2012 #64
thucythucy Dec 2012 #74
pop topcan Dec 2012 #89
thucythucy Dec 2012 #109
hatrack Dec 2012 #113
thucythucy Dec 2012 #118
sheshe2 Dec 2012 #70
llmart Dec 2012 #73
undeterred Dec 2012 #75
vlyons Dec 2012 #76
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #78
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #79
pop topcan Dec 2012 #90
neverforget Dec 2012 #93
pop topcan Dec 2012 #96
neverforget Dec 2012 #99
davidthegnome Dec 2012 #82
libodem Dec 2012 #94
fightthegoodfightnow Dec 2012 #101
hatrack Dec 2012 #114
allan01 Dec 2012 #103
wake.up.america Dec 2012 #104
heaven05 Dec 2012 #107
TheOther95Percent Dec 2012 #108
LittleGirl Dec 2012 #111
clyrc Dec 2012 #112
ProudProgressiveNow Dec 2012 #115
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #116

Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:28 PM

1. Kick n/t

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:42 PM

2. K&R - "Something needs to change."

One phone call, one letter, one vigil, one protest, one petition signed, one VOTE at a time.

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Response to Hell Hath No Fury (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:45 PM

3. You know what the kicker was?

When I got in the car, "On Point" was on the NPR station. They were discussing the NRA and guns and Sandy Hook. The first caller I hears was some hysterical insurrectionist type wailing about how his guns were going to be taken away.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:05 PM

4. My father is one of those "hysterical insurrectionist types" --

and at this point, I say fuck'em. Let'em wail all they want -- we have been held hostage by them and the NRA for long enough.

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Response to Hell Hath No Fury (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:11 PM

5. They guy I no longer claim as my brother is, as well.

And, he's a cop. I am ashamed and embarrassed to be related to him. He used to be a sensible person until he started hanging out with the Glenn Beck crowd. And, he has poisoned my nephew, too. I say "Fuck 'em", too.

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:32 PM

8. These people could probably use

some mental health therapy because this attitude is so disturbing

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Response to amuse bouche (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:36 PM

10. Yep. Although...

In the case of people like my brother, they just need to stop consuming the poison they get from Beck, Fox News and their ilk. Unfortunately, for many of them it may also take the same sort of intervention used to deprogram cult members. Because, that's basically what they belong to--a cult.

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:53 PM

18. +++++

Getting out of a cult is a very hard thing to do. People need bonding and associations with their affinity group. It's a shame the Fux/Rush cult has to fill the void for these followers. It really speaks to the worst in human nature.

You have a good handle on what the appeal is --at close range. Thanks for the viewpoint. Keep up the hope that one day your brother breaks free.

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Response to amuse bouche (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:41 PM

27. But the thing is, 'they' don't see the sickness in their mindset

It's some kind of moral disease that they're in deep denial of.

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Response to ailsagirl (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:25 PM

43. the denial

As far as I can tell the denial is part and parcel of the mental/moral disease.The AAers say recognizing you have a problem is the essential first step to solving the problem.The denial prevents them from recognizing they have a problem.

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Response to donquijoterocket (Reply #43)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:32 PM

51. Good point

Last edited Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:33 PM - Edit history (1)

Thankfully, there have been those that (since the latest shooting) have done some serious soul-searching and decided that things have gotten completely out-of-control and MUST change. And some of them are NRA members. Remember Dylan's

"How many deaths will it take 'til he knows
That too many people have died?"

Of course, Dylan was referring to war, but now, grimly, so are we.

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Response to amuse bouche (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:06 AM

102. Need for these weapons = Illness of some sort

It's not healthful, rational or moral. It is a form of anti-social acting out. They don't need firearms. They need professional help. And if they need professional help for this reason, they really ought not have a gun.

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:46 PM

15. When I saw the officers at Sandy Hook

holding each other and sobbing I felt this odd sense of hope.
That those that are exposed to the very worst in society were
not immune to being overwhelmed with emotion. That they
had not become emotionally detached thru their training
and exposure. I hope the first responders get all the support
and help they need coping with what they witnessed in the
months and years ahead.

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:39 PM

57. This incident is bringing the nuts out.

Many families are probably going through this reckoning now and lines are being drawn. I had no idea until this that my husband was such a gun nut. He owns a shotgun and even though he had no plans to buy an assault rifle he didn't want anyone to tell him he couldn't. I asked him why he felt that he our anyone needs that kind of fire power he started to spout off nonsense about government takeovers and invaders from China. I was sure he was joking but he wasn't. Apparently he never outgrew his Red Dawn fantasies of being a wolverine. I told him that if he wanted one of those god awful guns he is not to tell me and it is not to be brought into my home. In the end, I forced the conversation to a stop as I said there was nothing that he could say to me and vice versa that would change either of our minds and we were just going in circles getting progressively angrier. I'd never seen this side if him and it is giving me serious pause.

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Response to werknotgoin2takeit (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:07 PM

71. I have had 4 phone calls saying, "I told you" so re new gun control legislation.

I assured all my friends that he would not do just what he is doing in a second term. He said so himself or at least implied it. We will see how it plays out in the midterms.

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #71)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:23 AM

110. That was before twenty kindergartners and their teachers

and principal were massacred.

President Obama isn't a president to ignore that sort of event.

Do you remember what Colbert said about GW Bush?

"He's a man who will believe the same thing on Wednesday that he believed on Monday, no matter what happens on Tuesday."

Well, President Obama isn't like that. And I for one am very grateful for that, especially in this context.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #110)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:27 PM

117. I understand that

but most people will go on with their lives and a couple of years from now during the midterms when people have tucked it into the back of their minds might be another thing. It is like global warming. I just read an article that lots of people changed their minds on it because of Sandy so you may be right. People are strange and I guess anything can happen.

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Response to Hell Hath No Fury (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:29 AM

105. Wow - no kidding about feeling held hostage be these assholes.

That's exactly how it feels! I'm with you - let 'em rant. They've HAD their way on this again and again and again and again, and how many mass shootings have we had by now? I've lost count. I heard someone calling into either Randy Rhodes or Stephanie Miller and say something REALLY great: "MY right not to be shot to death outweighs your right to bear arms." I couldn't agree more with that one, either.

I don't feel ONE BIT safer knowing there might be multiple people packin' heat around me. That makes me feel much more in danger of great bodily harm. I wonder how many people on the freeway in SoCal these days are armed. Traffic is remarkably ungodly here anymore. LOTS more impatient and pissed-off people on the roads all over town nowadays. The congestion on the freeways and surface streets is heavier than EVER! Almost every hour here, anymore, is rush hour. Except of course between maybe 3:30am and 5am. If you figure even one in 20 is carrying a concealed weapon, with all the fear and hostility and paranoia and rudeness manifesting out there on an increasing basis, it makes for some very unsettling moments, and lots of scofflaws. We've certainly seen our share of road rage. And somebody with a gun could be anywhere around you within a 100-foot radius.

Scary. The LAST thing we need to throw into this witches' brew is more guns. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph - WHAT ON EARTH IS WITH the louie gohmerts and rick perrys of the world?????? What did their mothers feed them for breakfast every morning when they were growing up???????

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:13 PM

6. Oh how I feel your pain. ((hugs))

I also feel like it's wrong to feel festive, and I love this time of year. Such a stupid, pointless, horrible tragedy. I can't stop thinking of those families, the absolute torture they are feeling.

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Response to rivegauche (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:34 PM

9. I feel for the first responders and ME too

The images of all those slaughtered babies and teachers will haunt them for ages

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:14 PM

7. Yup, the usually festive paper's Christmas party

Was not. We had bipartisan agreement between Dems and Rs (at different levels of government) that things need to change.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:38 PM

11. K & R

Thanks for sharing this story with us.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:39 PM

12. K&R

What an experience! I've noted that you state that not a single person that was there and broke down and started crying was under the age of 50 years. I guess the older you get, the more you you've lived to see happen in life and the more difficult it becomes, I don't know.

By the age of 50, most folks have seen many things they wish they'd never seen nor heard of in life. These recent child murders are one of those events.

I sure there are plenty of folks of all ages that feel just as "raw" as you put it and they really do care and are deeply disturbed about what happened and yes, it was the event that destroyed Christmas permanently for many.

Personally, I sort of gave up on Christmas years ago finding it to be something that I think of as being something reserved for children, just like those poor innocents that were brutally murdered last week.

May that holiday everyone celebrates called "Christman" RIP.

How very sad indeed.

& recommend.

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Response to CountAllVotes (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:23 PM

40. Regarding those over 50....

 

we lived such an innocent childhood. No bloody video games. No violent pron. We played outside. We had fun. We've watched our culture venture into the sewer.

i don't enjoy movies of today....nor TV shows. A top-selling book is about 'shades of grey' and I can't even fathom such a life.

The Greed has infiltrated the atmosphere to the point I can almost smell it.

Maybe 12-21-12 will be the end of this descent and a beginning of cooperation.

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Response to femrap (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:46 PM

44. I've found myself having similar thoughts.

It is hard to connect with what passes for art and culture now and for play.

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Response to femrap (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:49 PM

77. I'm 53...the thought of some of the kids I knew having access to military-grade weapons is scary

And that includes my own brother.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:41 PM

13. Thank you for this story

uplifting in light of the tragedy.

I hope & pray we are coming to an awakening in this country. This cannot continue.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:45 PM

14. yesterday I was riding the city bus...

....and at one stop a fellow got on the bus -- he was in a rage. He was GROWLING and shrieking at no one. He had a dozen or so bags and parcels that he threw onto the bus, dropping things, agitated. He made multiple trips running to the back of the bus with these items, growling and shrieking all the while. I suspected that he had been thrown out of the half-way house near that bus stop.

Everyone on the bus immediately was alert. I thought to my self "Lord, I hope this guy doesn't have a weapon." I'm sure the same thought was on each passenger's mind.

It's up to us to demand funding for mental health as well as common sense gun restrictions.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:47 PM

16. I Live In Florida... BUT No Christmas Here Either!

Electricity is very high here, but thankfully it's warm. But we aren't decorating and trying to do everything we can to cut back any place we can. My grown kids & us aren't exchanging gifts, only giving to Grand Kids.

On SS & only got a 1.7% COLA raise. A pittance it is. Really the amount is laughable.

Our health insurance went up by $81.00 more not including Medicare! But as I said it's warmer here & we have 2 space heaters.

Sorry to hear all the sad stories, it just So SUCKS!

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:50 PM

17. Thank you for this post. One thing that has increased my sadness ...

I think of all the previous gun slaughters, all the innocent lives lost over the past couple decades. The San Ysidro massacre in 1984, where a gunman walked into a McDonald's in 1984 and killed 21 people (including five children) and injured 19 others, shocked me to my core. And yet, in the years since then, not only has little been done, this country has only become nuttier and nuttier about guns. Laws are routinely passed now making it easier for people to obtain and use guns, and the situation has evolved so that uttering the words "gun control" can mean the death of a political career. The countries of the "civilized world" looks at this country with a mix of disgust, incomprehension and pity.

And now, after the unspeakable horror of Sandy Hook, only NOW some people see the need for change?

I don't get it.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:55 PM

19. I think it has hit home for a several reasons.

First, there has been a cluster of these types of murders very close together. Second, it occurred in a secured area that was supposed to be absolutely safe and in spite of those safety measures. Third, the type of weaponry and the viciousness of the slaughter that was visited on these small children and their teachers really pointed out that when we talk about guns, we aren't talking about Jed Clampett's old hunting rifle anymore. And lastly, I think that people are so thoroughly disgusted with big money owners of politicians and the pols they have bought, they are willing to mount a backlash.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:56 PM

31. My sentiments exactly

I hear people on radio, Obama included, saying that "now is the time" and I say WTF? The time is LONG past.

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Response to demokatgurrl (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:54 PM

68. I agree

The time IS long past, but I also understand Obama (and others) are responding to those NRA types who ALWAYS want to say "Don't politicize this, now is not the time to talk about gun control..."

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Response to robbob (Reply #68)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:10 PM

92. Funny -- saying "don't politicize this" IS politicizing it! n/t

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:57 PM

20. Except that children HAVE been

being slaughtered every single day, to the tune of thousands per year, and there has always been political opposition to doing anything about it. Children between 5-14 are ten times more likely to die from guns in this country than in all of the other developed nations. But because the majority of them are poor and/or minority, society doesn't care, the media doesn't care and Congress doesn't care. They only care when it affects white children living in a fairly affluent suburb.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:03 PM

22. Sometime a single event just crystallizes ideas and facts for people.

Not everyone tracks events or policy with the intensity that people on political forums do. These children did not die in vain if it sheds light on a very ugly part of our national psyche. Perhaps we can make it better for children in the future.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:25 PM

42. +1000 nt

 

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:01 PM

21. I've noticed that somberness in Seattle too. And in me.

Just hard to feel the spirit and magic. And I l love it. We've been robbed.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:07 PM

23. Thanks for sharing your moment.

We can and must act now. It brings tears to my eyes to imagine the scene you painted. We are good people and we will remain steadfast when it comes to protecting our fellow citizens, no matter what age.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:09 PM

24. They were babies. Every time I think about it, I cry.

Not only for those babies murdered in Newtown, but for the school staff, and all the babies and other innocent people slaughtered in our country. I weep for them.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:26 PM

25. I'm with you. I have cried about this just about every day since it happened,

especially after dropping my daughter off at school. I just think about all the families who won't be dropping their kids off at school any more.

And I think about how that school, too, has been killed. And by all accounts it was a great school. But the principal is dead, those teachers are dead, and the school will not reopen this year...or, I imagine, the following year. Who will want to go back there?

It looks to me as if public opinion is shifting. I sure hope that means the end of the NRA holding the rest of the country hostage.

The Plaid Adder

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:35 PM

26. I'm having a hard time sleeping

And concentrating. I know I have things to do. I have a house to get ready for company which begins to arrive tomorrow and I just want to climb back in the bed and pull the covers over my head. But sleep doesn't come.... only thoughts of those poor children and their families.

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Response to qanda (Reply #26)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:03 AM

106. Yeah, no kidding. I started decorating a couple of weeks ago. It's been awfully busy around here

and I slowed down. Now, I have no motivation to resume. Just not in much of a mood. And it's been said here already, but I've cried every day since it happened, also. I'm sure most of America has. This is just a complete sucker-punch. And I'm in California. Clear across the country from Newtown, CT. I find myself thanking God every time I think of my kids actually surviving to adulthood. But hell, they're no safer than any of the rest of us, as long as there are gunworshippers stalking our country, with their unreachable attitudes. You can't reach some of them. That precious gun of theirs might as well be a golden calf. I just don't see it. I just don't get it. It's sheer insanity to me.

I've been touched by gun violence twice.

I went to high school with a girl who had three brothers. One weekend, the three boys all went out to the outskirts of town to go shooting together - to this large, professional, open-air shooting range. Well supervised place, well maintained, good facilities, very professional. Only two brothers came back. One of the bullets ricocheted and struck one of the boys and killed him instantly. That family was never the same again. They just closed up. And closed down, I guess.

And later on, we became friends with a remarkable woman, very gifted as a medium. Very spiritual, and she was amazingly accurate. Kind and generous. Almost a mentor to my son. She helped police solve crimes and find missing people. We'd hit it off the minute we were introduced by a mutual friend who'd known her since they were kids. One day that third party called me up with the news that our friend had just shot herself - after shooting and killing another family member. They'd evidently been arguing. My son felt as though he'd been hit in the face by a 2x4. We were REELING. For months. NEVER saw that one coming. Especially with HER. Murder-suicide was NEVER something any of us had ever really thought deeply about, period, much less imagining that it could possibly happen to someone we knew.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:43 PM

28. K & R !!!


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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:45 PM

29. I have seen a lot of pain. A LOT of it - and I've never cried so much

as I have since this happened.

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Response to Care Acutely (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:49 PM

30. Me, too.

I think we are all mourning on many levels--for the children and women lost, for the ugliness at the heart of our nation, for how inflexible we know some of us will be around this issue when most of us would just like to live in peace without fearing our neighbor.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:59 PM

32. Every time I see a television ad

that features a happy little child opening a Christmas present (a frequent genre in this season), I start tearing up, and I have to change the channel immediately. This is too much for most of us, and I don't even celebrate Christmas.

Because I live in a city where many little children have died, one by one, across time, from gunshot wounds (here in Chicago, in fact, more children are killed each year from guns than the number who died in Sandy Hook), this sadness has occurred with me many times over. But because each of these other deaths has come and gone fleetingly in the media, the sadness is unfortunately all too fleeting, too. Too often we forget and move on ... until the next one.

This time, I have vowed not to forget again, not these children from Connecticut nor any of the little girls and boys who have lost their lives to senseless gun violence in my own town. Especially not them, because nobody remembers their faces or names.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:08 PM

33. I actually got more agitated by a "Call of Duty" ad

Turned to my SO and said "and you wonder what gave that nutjob the idea that killing people was fun?"

I'm not necessarily blaming video games, but the shootings, the ads, they're all a reflection of violent society.

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Response to Patiod (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:19 PM

81. "Call of Duty"

Is that a video game or an ad for the military? I'm suddenly getting sick of the obsessive non-stop glorification of our military in ads, the news, the movies. I see them as heroes, yes, but also as deluded victims of the neocon hawks who promise them college and a better life in exchange for what? Defending us? Mostly they fight profit-wars for the super rich, wars they are brainwashed into thinking necessary. Many are on their third and fourth tours of duty.

I wish the pols and the elite would stop assauging their guilt by "blessing" them -- in every speech. It's everywhere now: a real reality show that justifies killing and violence. Ratings through the roof.

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Response to Hermes Daughter (Reply #81)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:42 PM

84. A video game. Popular with the kids, I understand. nt

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Response to frazzled (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:21 PM

39. Cannot imagine the families of those victiims having to watch tv ads now.

Or for a long time.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:11 PM

35. Skidmore, you give me hope



When I phoned my senator's office to urge her to submit gun legislation now and not in January, I unexpectedly burst into tears. But that's just me, a liberal Californian. Your experience is that much more powerful because it is multiplied by four and in a hunting region. The only thing I could possibly add is: call and write your congresscritters.

Thank you so much for sharing this.

Hekate

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:15 PM

36. Last night I

Last night I attended a Christmas program at the grade school my granddaughter attends. It was put on by the 1st graders. I was in tears once and almost a second time just looking at all those sweet faces and thinking; It could have been them. I hope we can have a fun Christmas for our three grand kids and not the crying I have been experiencing.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:16 PM

37. K and R.

Yes it does.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:19 PM

38. Wonderful post, thank you...

 

There is indeed something out this tragedy that simply transcends anything that has happened like this in the past (at least in my lifetime).

There will be a pall over these Holidays, as we are all affected by it regardless if we are parents or not.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:24 PM

41. In Connecticut

 

The local newspapers have been publishing the obituaries of those killed in Newtown, I am not sure if they are being published anywhere else but they should be. They are the families attempt to tell us who their children (or sister) were. The obituaries are loving and heart breaking and deserved to be read in honor of those who lost their lives.

And if anyone here has not seen the interview of the father of Emilee, they should take the time to, he has told the world how wonderful his daughter was and in doing so displayed the kind of grace that would make a perfect world.

How many people could do that under normal circumstances?

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:50 PM

45. I lost my 8-year-old son 13 years ago

and with every news report I relive my pain as I watch the grieving parents of these 20 beautiful children. I grieve for these children, their families, and for the dedicated brave adults that were lost in this senseless tragedy.

We must not perpetuate the status-quo.

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Response to Still Sensible (Reply #45)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:53 PM

46. I am so sorry. I have an 8 year old daughter.

And another daughter who is 7. It is hard to watch for me, I can't imagine how hard it is to deal with if you have lost a child.

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Response to Still Sensible (Reply #45)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:05 PM

47. What great sorrow you must still bear.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:14 PM

48. I agree

This past week has been brutal...we have had to endure the tragic slaughter of 20 innocent children and 6 dedicated educators, and the killing of two Topeka police officers by a worthless twenty-two year old thug with a criminal history (we live within 100 miles of Topeka). To top off our heartbreak, we had to put our twelve year old bichon to sleep due to liver failure. Today is my twenty-fifth wedding anniversary, but my dear husband and I are not celebrating - we are mourning the death of innocents, of honorable men who put themselves in harm' s way to protect us, and our beloved dog. No Christmas lights here, no decorations. This is the worst December of my life.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:26 PM

49. it is very hard

it's something that is so very difficult to fathom

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:29 PM

50. Yeah, something definitely needs to change.

I think the president made a good distinction between weapons fit for self-defense, and weapons of war. It is just flat fucking ridiculous to have battlefield hardware this readily available. I'm all for packing a pistol, hunting rifle, or shotgun. Anything beyond that, I think there needs to be a strict licensing regime, requiring advanced training and regular checks to make sure the weapons are being kept in a secure fashion.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:39 PM

52. We need the hippie culture back-bad.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:22 PM

53. This is the first year in my life that I haven't had a Christmas tree...

K&R

...Nada. I usually have a tree in every widow, lights all over outside. And this was a choice I made even before last Friday. The joy is just gone out of me. The only Christmas tree I have is this one right here that you see. I did manage to get my cards out with a Christmas stamp slapped on the front.

If you run into those gun-nuts complaining about Obama coming to get their guns, tell them to bury them. Most genuine gun-nuts have already done that, but maybe there's some dumb phuck who hasn't thought of it.

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Response to ReRe (Reply #53)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:54 PM

58. "Bury your guns" -- just what I told a gun nut I used to know

It really was a LOL moment for me, because this high-IQ nutball was convinced that jackbooted thugs were going to come and steal his precious arsenal, and he, by God, would hide them by burying them in his back yard before letting that happen!

I looked at him and said most sincerely, "That's a good idea."

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Response to Hekate (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:53 PM

67. Bwaaaaaaah!

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:27 PM

54. Nice OP.

I would point out that our drone strikes do the exact same thing to families in the Middle East.

I get choked up thinking about all of the children viciously slaughtered all over the world.

"Something needs to change."
Indeed.

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Response to blackspade (Reply #54)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:25 PM

97. +1

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:29 PM

55. Like many here

I feel the same. It just doesn't seem right to celebrate this year. I can't remember ever feeling this way, not even after 9/11. There is just something profound that I think is working on humanities psyche. We are living through a profound shift in consciousness. I have cried everyday since this happened, no tragedy has ever made me do that unless it involved animals. I hope that we are at the beginning of an era of peace, finally.

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Response to werknotgoin2takeit (Reply #55)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:26 PM

119. me too I haven't cried this much

over a national tragedy either

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:34 PM

56. I never thought I'd live to see the day that people would trade freedom for a little security.

 

If the controllers get their AWB or something like it, what will they want when the next crazy shoots up a school? Ban some other class of arms?...and after that, it happens again, what then? The "solution" is like the guy who tells his mechanic "My brakes don't work...fix the horn."

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:02 PM

59. "A little freedom"? That's what you call this free-fire zone?

"A little security"? That's what you call preventing the gruesome murders of 6 and 7 year olds?

You being so wise in the ways of military-strength guns and all, I'm sure you are aware that there will be no open coffins at their funerals. The murderer shot their little bodies repeatedly.

Peddle your poison elsewhere.

I watched this country go into a frenzy after 9-11 -- half of the American population couldn't give away the Bill of Rights fast enough. The USA PATRIOT ACT came off the storeroom shelf so fast it made our heads spin. Freedom of speech, press, association, all sacrificed in the name of "Homeland" security -- everything but the goddam guns.

Do not talk to me about sacrificing freedom for a little security.

Talk to me about the deaths of little children and their teachers who tried to shield them.

Hekate

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Response to Hekate (Reply #59)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:37 PM

63. Fine, go ahead and blame the inanimate object instead of the crazed bastard who used it.

 

I despise the "patriot act" because it interferes with all our Constitutional rights. I understand how quite a few effete elites will gladly sacrifice someone else's rights because of the actions of a tiny handful who abuse them. The KKK operates the same way.

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #63)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:09 PM

91. That inanimate object allowed that guy to kill 26 people.

AND IT'S JUST A FUCKING OBJECT! Get over the worship of a fucking gun/object. For God's sake, is there a limit on any gun?

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:03 PM

60. I knew this thread wouldn't be complete without a pro-gunner

spouting the usual nonsense.

"Trade freedom for a LITTLE security"?

Yeah, the freedom for people like you to buy and play with their grown-up toys, versus "the little" security parents and grandparents would like to feel regarding the LIVES of their children and grandchildren. Your right to fantasize about being some hyper-virile "freedom fighter" standing up to the evil gubbermint, versus the "little freedom" of a child to not have his or her life snuffed out in an act of senseless violence.

I think it's becoming clear that there is a seismic shift going on. Just as the election in November demonstrated that the right wing bubble-people no longer rule American politics, the massacre of the innocents in December has shown that we as a culture are finally fed up with those with paranoid delusions writing our gun laws.

And it's about freakin' time.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #60)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:45 PM

66. Didn't you forget the obligatory penis reference?

 

If you think Americans will surrender their 2nd Amendment rights without an all-out war, should it come to that, you're just delusional. Sorry.

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #66)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:07 PM

80. Screw em. I guess they aren't so law-abiding after all.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #80)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:53 PM

85. The Constitutional prohibition of Ex Post Facto is completely foreign to you, isn't it?

 


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Response to pop topcan (Reply #85)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:57 PM

86. Nah, heard that crap from right wing bigots where I live for decades.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:58 PM

88. And I hear the opposite from left wing bigots.

 

I guess it depends on whose ox is being fucked, huh?

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #66)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:27 PM

83. Aww, I just don't like pointing out people's deformities. Sorry about your teeny peeny.

As for your all-out war:
Bring it on.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #83)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:57 PM

87. HAHAHAHA...I wondered how long it would take some effete elite to do the PENIS reference.

 

That's pretty lame, don't you think?



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Response to pop topcan (Reply #87)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:19 PM

95. Please, I'm going to ask you to stop.

Enough. We get the point. You love your guns. You could care less about the effects of weaponry on society at large and clearly the deaths of these children or any other person as a result of the use of such weapons does not matter to you. This is my thread. I'm asking you to please leave it. Go start a thread of your own and be as vile as you care to be but no more here. Thank you.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #95)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:29 PM

98. I will leave "your" thread, but not without saying you are a liar about what "matters" to me, and

 

I resent the lie. You can't just assign ulterior motives to me without knowing me. The deaths of these children matter a lot to me, I have said so in other threads. I don't especially "love" my guns, I "love" what they represent...a means to protect my family in one way that the police have neither the ability nor the obligation to provide. I won't post again in this thread, I'm not here to provoke anyone, just to expostulate my own position...which doesn't seem to be very popular in a "progressive" arena. How sad.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #60)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:26 PM

72. He (or she) has been on every thread since this happened.....

trying to take over every thread with his nonsense.

Just put him on ignore so we don't have to read it.

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:14 PM

62. We are asking for some reasonable measures of gun safety.

Even Scalia did not rule out some regulation of guns. Were you as concerned about giving up freedom when Congress gave up its war power to Bush? How do you feel about the Patriot Act? Are you fine with having your shampoo or mouthwash confiscated on a plane while anyone can purchase military grade weapon without a background check? We do need to get a handle on this. Keep your guns but not military grade. Get insurance so if they are stolen are stolen and used in a crime or someone is hurt from them you can cover the damage they cause. Enter them in a registry. You need to register your car, even one with faulty breaks and a broken horn.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #62)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:43 PM

65. Why in the world would you suppose I like the 'patriot act' just because I defend the RKBA?

 

That makes no sense. I have 2 cars that are not registered, they don't go on public roads and there's no constitutional protection to keep automobiles. Almost all common guns are "military grade" which term is meaningless in a legal and technical way...the ignorance about arms around here is absolutely frightening.
I don't know anyone who despised Bush any more than I did, btw.

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:00 PM

69. ...that people Would trade freedom for a little security...????

What freedom are you talking about? The 2nd amendment? Your right to bear arms? Form a militia?

So, with your NRA buddies, you have distorted the 2nd Amendment. You include your assault rifles, your clips that contain up to 100 rounds. Then you want to sell them to any crazy off the street.

What MAN needs to hunt with an automatic weapon?

Must take you big NRA types to kill penned animals! WOW, what Manly men you are!!!

Although Cheney, an avid hunter, then enjoyed a reputation as an excellent shot, his success on this occasion was not entirely due to his skill as a marksman. The birds that his party killed were not wild; they were raised in pens as hunting fodder and released by club staff when the hunters were ready to shoot. It is rather surprising, then, that of the 500 birds set loose for the Cheney party, more than a few 83, to be exact managed to escape.

http://advocacy.britannica.com/blog/advocacy/2008/02/fish-in-a-barrel-lions-in-a-cage/

You feel your rights are being infringed upon if we regulate. How many guns are enough for you, 10,50,100? It is easier to buy a gun than sudafed:
The Combat Methamphetamine Epidemic Act of 20051 has been incorporated into the Patriot Act signed by President Bush on March 9, 2006. The act bans over-the-counter sales of cold medicines that contain the ingredient pseudoephedrine, which is commonly used to make methamphetamine. The sale of cold medicine containing pseudoephedrine is limited to behind the counter. The amount of pseudoephedrine that an individual can purchase each month is limited and individuals are required to present photo identification to purchase products containing pseudoephedrine. In addition, stores are required to keep personal information about purchasers for at least two years.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp109&sid=cp109djs6R&refer=&r_n=hr333.109&item=&sel=TOC_358801&>

All in all I have to question YOUR interpretation of your freedom and the 2nd amendment!








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Response to pop topcan (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:44 PM

100. Oh, whatever.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:11 PM

61. At the risk of offending the non-religious

or anti-religious folks here, among the Bible readings we heard at Christmas time when I was a kid was this one, which always filled me with a sense of horror and sadness:

"A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted, because they are no more."

Never have those words had a greater impact than right now.

I weep for all the slaughtered children of the world.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:38 PM

64. How do you feel about 2 Kings 2:23?

 

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:36 PM

74. Don't know it, don't care.

BTW, I'm an agnostic. I know the Bible because it is a classic of western literature, and parts of it are quite beautiful indeed. Other parts, not so much.

Here's a thought: just because I know and quote Shakespeare, doesn't mean I support the English monarchy.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #74)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:01 PM

89. Nice, I do believe you're the first salad-bar agnostic I ever encountered.

 

Methinks he doth protest too much.


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Response to pop topcan (Reply #89)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:16 AM

109. It's "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Hamlet, Act III, scene ii.

Try to keep up.

As for this being your first ever encounter with a salad-bar agnostic, perhaps you should get out more. You'll find we are pretty much everywhere.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #109)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:51 AM

113. In case you were wondering re. our little friend above . . .

Posting privileges revoked effective today.

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Response to hatrack (Reply #113)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:25 PM

118. Good to know,

and I figured it was bound to happen.

I'll drink to that!

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:06 PM

70. Thank you for this heartfelt post!

You are right! We need change now!

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:33 PM

73. I would bet this is going on nationwide.....

I live in a condo complex which is mostly people over 50 and I see lots of us walking around with heavy hearts. I'm sure my neighbors have noticed it in me also.

I drove by an elementary school today on my way to do errands and the little ones were out for recess, happy go lucky, running, playing, and I burst into tears in my car. They're just so innocent and loving.

Spent the morning writing to my asshat Governor of Michigan, Rick Snyder to veto the Repuke legislation on his desk. His office wrote back saying he did veto it but couldn't let it go at that, interjecting all his propaganda as to why he had been considering signing it, trying to turn it around to make it look like he was the good guy. I wrote him back and told him that when the new legislature comes in in January, there'll be even more pressure from the sane ones of us.

We all must take this passion we have for the issue right now and maintain it until major changes are made!

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:44 PM

75. I seem to be surrounded by people who have tuned the whole thing out.

I asked a person at work on Monday who is an Obama supporter if she had heard the President's speech last night. She looked at me blankly and said "what speech?"

I told her he went to NewTown to comfort the families of the children and teachers who were killed and that it looked like he really wanted to do something about gun control. And she launched into "that's never going to happen" and started telling me that you can't stop things like this from happening because people have a right to own guns blah blah blah.

I said 'You didn't watch any of the coverage did you?' and she said no. The she started telling me how much her boyfriend loved guns and it would be terrible if he had to give them up.

Just no connection at all. I walked away.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:45 PM

76. Something IS going to change

because we're going to change it. We the people have reached critical mass in agreement that we want it changed. We will hold accountable all those elected pols who don't get with the program and stand in our way.

I can feel it, can you?

Just let them hem and haw and pretend freedom something something blah blah blah. God forbid another one of these massacres by a psychotic whack-o should occur, but if it does and those stupid tea party scum continue to resist the will of the people, well Katy bar the door. Even the half-way reasonable conservatives will treat the scum as pariahs.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:50 PM

78. I don't know how people are thinking of anything else

K&R

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:04 PM

79. Yet many of those same weeping people will fight to the death to ensure that

what changes is not any gun laws that might affect THEM. Because it's always the OTHER guy with the problem.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #79)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:05 PM

90. Not necessarily, there are many criminals who are hoping & praying for no more gun control.

 

The best insurance a robber/thug could get would be no potential victims armed. Funny how that works, ain't it?

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #90)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:12 PM

93. Why have any laws because crooks break them anyway?

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Response to neverforget (Reply #93)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:23 PM

96. Contrary to the binary thinking of many uneducated people, SOME laws are actually deterrents

 

to "crime". I've noticed that most DUers have properly concluded that most laws against innocuous drugs (e.g. marijuana) are counterproductive and support their repeal. So your catch-all observation needs to be modified to consider how not everything is black or white. How exactly would you propose to legislate in a way to eliminate the possibility of mass murder? It's been a staple of human history since God killed off every human on the planet except for a handful of Arkers (or so says a book many consider infallible)...or any number of more modern and documented adventures.

If you can propose a method to un-invent guns, I'll seriously consider investing in the project...until then, you should accept reality as......well, real.

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #96)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:33 PM

99. I accept reality and there are about 8500 gun deaths (murder) per year in the US.

That's reality too.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:26 PM

82. Yes it does.

While I'm strongly in support of the second amendment, I too believe that changes must be made. I'm hoping that we can come up with some reasonable gun control laws. Banning assault weapons, limiting the number of rounds available in standard ammunition and requiring applications and stronger background checks for would be gun owners.

I also think that having metal detectors in all schools is a good idea. Beyond that I'm not sure...

As the Father of a young boy, I can only imagine how the parents must be feeling right now. I would be beyond devastated. It is heartbreaking that this has happened and bizarre that some are completely unwilling to negotiate making some reasonable changes.

I definitely believe something needs to be done, I'm just not entirely certain what. I have a few ideas, but... honestly, I just don't know enough about guns.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:14 PM

94. I for one hope

That everyone who went out to empty the Walmart shelves of guns and ammo has in a special FBI and ATF spot in the data base.

And btw, lawmaker motherfuckers, confirm a candidate for the head of the ATF, or self deport out of my government. You bastards need to get a life and stop obstructing or face some recall. What ever it takes to get a Democratic House!

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:04 AM

101. MISSING FROM THIS THREAD: The Gun Clutching Crowd from DU Gungeon Land

No surprise.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #101)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:52 AM

114. You missed him just upthread - gone now, though.

nt

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:09 AM

103. re:I'm back home and I just feel raw.

thanks for sharing . i just saw a video on utube that states " obama starts seizing guns on 2913 01 . i didnt watch it though but that is what the title said. where do these folks get this stuff , vapor ?

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:49 AM

104. About time the "good people " stood up and demanded action.

Too often people bitch and complain, but don't want to get involved. It's time for people to stop being bullied by idiots.

I get slammed all the time , for example, because I demand people put out their cigarettes in no smoke zones. Makes me uncomfortable, but its better than putting up with the smoke. It doesn't always affect a change. Sometimes I hear "Fick dich!!".

Gotta stand up for what's right. Everybody who cares needs to get involved. I went to two nearby schools and strongly suggested they tighten up security. The chances that something terrible could happen is very small, but still...

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:51 AM

107. Yes

I agree. Nothing to be joyful about this holiday season. We all got a huge lump of coal thinking of the grief those parent are going through because of that monster with an ASSAULT WEAPON!x Will it ever stop?

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:59 AM

108. Am in NYC

This week Mr OT95% saw his physical therapist - who lives in Danbury, CT - and I saw our dentist who grew up in Newton. Both expressed shock and horror over the event. My DH and I were talking about it and people seem to be reacting the same way they did after 9/11.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:56 AM

111. Friday night, my husband cried himself to sleep

with me. We had been watching the news coverage of the murders of those children and we were both beside ourselves in tears.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:35 AM

112. Raw is the right word

I knew Christmas, which my kids and I love, was going to be difficult this year, what with having been divorced this year and not being with my family for the 12th year in a row and not having much money, as compared to former years, and for other reasons, but I was determined to try. I spent days decorating the house. But after last Friday? I went on a grim trip Saturday to buy a few gifts for my girls, and tried to keep busy. But every time I'm not busy, it gets to me. I don't even have TV, but I read DU and I'm on FB a lot. I
usually love making Christmas cookies, but I just don't feel like it this year, the first time in 19 years. I have people coming over on Christmas eve, and I'm not looking forward to it. I got some really great gifts from my fiance, far away in the UAE, and I was happy to get them, but. This tragedy has brought out the best in some people, but in others.... Damn it makes me sad.

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:06 PM

115. K&R nt

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Response to Skidmore (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:17 PM

116. So far, the only response has been more gun purchases, more NRA members. Utter insanity

We rational people have to keep working HARD to get any real change.

Repeal the Second Amendment NOW

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