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Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:36 AM

This message was self-deleted by its author

This message was self-deleted by its author (bigtree) on Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:53 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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Reply This message was self-deleted by its author (Original post)
bigtree Dec 2012 OP
sadbear Dec 2012 #1
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #2
MineralMan Dec 2012 #159
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #163
DefenseLawyer Dec 2012 #3
NRaleighLiberal Dec 2012 #4
jberryhill Dec 2012 #5
mimi85 Dec 2012 #92
forestpath Dec 2012 #6
kentuck Dec 2012 #10
forestpath Dec 2012 #22
bullwinkle428 Dec 2012 #7
Itchinjim Dec 2012 #8
Hoyt Dec 2012 #9
daleanime Dec 2012 #31
bahrbearian Dec 2012 #11
progressoid Dec 2012 #34
Earth_First Dec 2012 #12
Enrique Dec 2012 #13
forestpath Dec 2012 #26
xtraxritical Dec 2012 #104
Liberalynn Dec 2012 #180
madokie Dec 2012 #14
Doctor_J Dec 2012 #18
madokie Dec 2012 #33
bahrbearian Dec 2012 #48
byronius Dec 2012 #86
Comrade_McKenzie Dec 2012 #79
pscot Dec 2012 #141
uponit7771 Dec 2012 #15
ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2012 #130
Whisp Dec 2012 #16
Doctor_J Dec 2012 #17
Enrique Dec 2012 #20
Doctor_J Dec 2012 #21
forestpath Dec 2012 #24
NYC Liberal Dec 2012 #73
NoMoreWarNow Dec 2012 #74
marew Dec 2012 #100
kentuck Dec 2012 #19
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #27
kentuck Dec 2012 #30
Blue_Roses Dec 2012 #42
Jamastiene Dec 2012 #52
Bobbie Jo Dec 2012 #63
Viva_La_Revolution Dec 2012 #77
Surya Gayatri Dec 2012 #165
Autumn Dec 2012 #23
heaven05 Dec 2012 #37
Autumn Dec 2012 #43
heaven05 Dec 2012 #49
Autumn Dec 2012 #54
heaven05 Dec 2012 #138
muriel_volestrangler Dec 2012 #75
heaven05 Dec 2012 #107
Doctor_J Dec 2012 #96
Javaman Dec 2012 #57
Autumn Dec 2012 #88
Javaman Dec 2012 #108
Autumn Dec 2012 #114
Javaman Dec 2012 #122
Autumn Dec 2012 #127
Javaman Dec 2012 #149
jtuck004 Dec 2012 #175
Autumn Dec 2012 #182
Sunlei Dec 2012 #61
Autumn Dec 2012 #109
ananda Dec 2012 #25
Sadiedog Dec 2012 #29
riderinthestorm Dec 2012 #28
NCTraveler Dec 2012 #83
riderinthestorm Dec 2012 #105
watoos Dec 2012 #32
marew Dec 2012 #36
olegramps Dec 2012 #45
heaven05 Dec 2012 #35
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Whisp Dec 2012 #40
marew Dec 2012 #67
NYC Liberal Dec 2012 #78
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NYC Liberal Dec 2012 #95
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Doctor_J Dec 2012 #162
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marew Dec 2012 #81
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #124
marew Dec 2012 #89
muriel_volestrangler Dec 2012 #99
marew Dec 2012 #123
heaven05 Dec 2012 #46
heaven05 Dec 2012 #50
ywcachieve Dec 2012 #60
marew Dec 2012 #69
plethoro Dec 2012 #39
ywcachieve Dec 2012 #65
plethoro Dec 2012 #84
marew Dec 2012 #129
SidDithers Dec 2012 #128
heaven05 Dec 2012 #41
davidthegnome Dec 2012 #59
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A Simple Game Dec 2012 #171
caseymoz Dec 2012 #44
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barbtries Dec 2012 #47
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littlemissmartypants Dec 2012 #53
dawg Dec 2012 #55
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woo me with science Dec 2012 #94
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #110
arjazz Dec 2012 #98
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leftstreet Dec 2012 #85
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Wind Dancer Dec 2012 #91
Doctor_J Dec 2012 #101
Liberal_Dog Dec 2012 #178
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enlightenment Dec 2012 #87
MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #97
Doctor_J Dec 2012 #102
99Forever Dec 2012 #103
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renie408 Dec 2012 #111
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Coyotl Dec 2012 #112
LostinRed Dec 2012 #116
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #133
marew Dec 2012 #135
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #117
spanone Dec 2012 #125
Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2012 #134
MattBaggins Dec 2012 #139
PotatoChip Dec 2012 #140
TreasonousBastard Dec 2012 #142
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #146
TreasonousBastard Dec 2012 #155
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #156
Jersey Devil Dec 2012 #143
Sugarcoated Dec 2012 #144
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #148
Doctor_J Dec 2012 #153
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #160
Skraxx Dec 2012 #145
FLyellowdog Dec 2012 #147
1-Old-Man Dec 2012 #150
healthnut7 Dec 2012 #151
freshwest Dec 2012 #154
4 more years Dec 2012 #157
MineralMan Dec 2012 #158
watoos Dec 2012 #161
JNelson6563 Dec 2012 #164
Rex Dec 2012 #166
PufPuf23 Dec 2012 #168
blackspade Dec 2012 #169
MNBrewer Dec 2012 #170
joeybee12 Dec 2012 #172
billh58 Dec 2012 #174
madfloridian Dec 2012 #177
brush Dec 2012 #179

Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:38 AM

1. Yep, everyone hush up until Carney confirms everything.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:39 AM

2. Some of us have memories that extend beyond the most recent set of talking points

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:40 PM

159. And some have agendas supported by fantasies.

Telling the difference is key.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #159)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:48 PM

163. You are perceptive, that is precisely my point

The fantasy being of course that Democrats in general and Obama in particular mean what they tell the 99% when they are trying to get their vote.







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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:39 AM

3. Remain calm!!! All is well!!! All is wellllll !!!!

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:39 AM

4. K and R. n/t

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:39 AM

5. Thank you

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:33 AM

92. Thank you

One day the President is a hero; the next he is a goat. I never know which will show up when I log-in.
It is discouraging. If you "feel" that way about him or the administration, that's one thing. But to cite something as true without concrete back up is another.
And "Jay Carney said" is not proof.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:40 AM

6. And some people would deny President Obama hurts seniors when they are living in boxes.

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:44 AM

10. Denial is not a river?

Some folks are up to their necks in it.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:59 AM

22. They need hip boots to wade in their denial, that's for sure.

 

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:41 AM

7. Ain't that the truth. But not in the way you think.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:42 AM

8. The sock puppets and trolls are just doing what they're paid to do:

Stir up the shit.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:43 AM

9. Not to mention, those focusing on just one aspect of "deal" and ignoring good it does in other ways


In any event, I feel much as you.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:17 AM

31. Just like forgetting....

how much our nation profits from gun sales?

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:48 AM

11. USA USA

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Response to bahrbearian (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:30 AM

34. SAU SAU

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:48 AM

12. Just keep swimming, just keep swimming... n/t

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:49 AM

13. Carney confirmed it

i don't agree that anyone should wait for official confirmation before commenting, but in this case we actually have official confirmation:

MR. CARNEY: -- part of his -- if I could please answer Samís question, Iíd appreciate it. And the President did include it in his counterproposal, his counteroffer, as part of this process, as part of the negotiation process. I would note that this is a technical change -- would be if instated -- to the way that economists calculate inflation, and it would affect every program that has -- that uses the CPI in its calculations. And so itís not directed at one particular program; it would affect every program that uses CPI. There are also -- as part of the Presidentís proposals, he would make sure that the most vulnerable were exempted out from this change.

But letís be clear, this is something that the Republicans have asked for, and as part of an effort to find common ground with the Republicans, the President has agreed to put this in his proposal -- agreed to have this as part of a broad deficit reduction package that includes asking the wealthiest to pay more so that we can achieve the kind of revenue targets that are necessary for a balanced approach to deficit reduction.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:02 AM

26. He could send up rockets, skywriters, put a billboard on every corner, they'd still deny it.

 

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Response to Enrique (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:43 AM

104. bigtree thinks he's a better mind reader than everybody else here, lol. Where's his "links"?

 

We need to make a BIG noise right now to stop this (hopefully) trial balloon in it's tracks - just like with gun control. The time is now - make it LOUD.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:46 PM

180. Nancy Pelosi confirmed it too by saying she could get the votes

for a proposal that included Chained CPI on Andrea Mitchell because it included "supposed" protections for some SS benficiaries like those on SSI and 85 years or older but what about the rest of us Ms. Minority Leader like the 60 amd 70s somethings and those on SSD?

Also Bill Press said he was at an event last night with Congress Critters and John Conyers said Pelosi has been trying to persuade/strong arm some Dems to go along with chained CPI. Yet some think this hallabou is based on a single rumor? Why would Pelosi be trying to gather support for a yes vote if it is not in the proposed deal or just a trial balloon?

I don't think she would be. Barbara Lee said she had not been approached yet, but tell Pelosi no if she had.

A whole lot of wishful thinking and denial going on some people's part.

Yes there is no final deal yet, but lets make sure we nip this in the bud before it its. JMHO.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:49 AM

14. I'm blown away by it all

I feel your pain
Lately I've caught myself actually looking for another place to park my monitor and keyboard on. Spending a lot of time off line, hoping this will correct itself. Not so sure that is going to happen though. You could say I'm loosing faith

When President Obama comes on tv and tells me that he is going to cut my SS I'll believe it but not one second before. I've heard him say on several occasions that SS and Medicare are not to be bargained with. I believe him.

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Response to madokie (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:53 AM

18. If you like SS cuts, maybe freeperville would be a good place to park

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:18 AM

33. How did you get that out of what I said?

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Response to madokie (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:47 AM

48. It was so simple to understand , even I got it.

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Response to bahrbearian (Reply #48)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:28 AM

86. Got -- what? Dude, your brain's on fire!

Slow down. Take a deep breath.

'Obama's a monster, Obama's a monster, ahhhhhhh!!'


Helpin' not at all.

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Response to madokie (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:22 AM

79. If he says the changes, IF ANY, he makes will not hurt seniors...

 

And the people around him confirm that, I will have no reason to believe he is lying.

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Response to madokie (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:16 PM

141. He's on TV right now

explaining why SS and Medicare are part of the "bargain" he's cutting with Boner.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:50 AM

15. ***FUDr ATTACKS*** They smack of them right down to the "I saw it on CNN" crap

...when you ask for Link and Quote

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:04 PM

130. Huh? eom

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:51 AM

16. well said. K&R

toxic sludge central.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:52 AM

17. And when it actually IS confirmed, we'll be told

"It's not that bad", "He had to do it", "That's politics", and, finally, "Would you rather have Rmoney"?

And BTW there won't be any apologies from the real "dupes", just more attacks and slander

Edit: One more thing. Those of us who are four-square AGAINST ANY CUTS are the ones who ARE on the president's side.. If he agrees to cuts he'll be slaughtered at the mid-terms, and will go down in history as the president who cut SS. Those of you who are on board with cuts are actually rooting for his demise (as well as millions of seniors)

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:56 AM

20. another thing we will hear

"read the Constitution! The president doesn't make laws!"

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Response to Enrique (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:58 AM

21. word

read my updated version of the post to which you responded, E.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:00 AM

24. Doctor_J, they will blame us as they always do. Their hero can do no wrong even when he

 

is determined to hurt the most vulnerable to help the filthy rich.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:16 AM

73. HAH. It's been "confirmed" for 4 years now.

Remember his announcement in 2009? I mean 2010? I mean 2011?

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:17 AM

74. yep

 

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:40 AM

100. Amen! n/t

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:54 AM

19. This is the biggest bullshit post you will read today.

So deep in denial, they are liable to drown at any moment.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #19)


Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:12 AM

30. Very close.

Both are delusional.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:44 AM

42. It's against DU rules to call members out by name.

Nt

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Response to Blue_Roses (Reply #42)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:53 AM

52. Actually, that changed with DU3, the current incarnation of DU.

There is a huge discussion about that, specifically, in Meta, on any given day. The rules changed to "whatever 'the community' deems 'acceptable'"* with DU3.

*Actually, I wish one of the self proclaimed "grammar Nazis" would help with those quotation marks side by side, how should that actually be typed? I would like to know. I hate leaving it that way when it looks so wrong.

In any case, yeah, DU3 changed a lot of the old rules. They got rid of Mods, but they also got rid of a bunch of rules with DU3. I have no clue why.

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Response to Jamastiene (Reply #52)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:00 AM

63. Looks like

the community deemed this particular post "unacceptable."

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Response to Jamastiene (Reply #52)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:20 AM

77. correct use of punctuation

well done.

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Response to Jamastiene (Reply #52)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:52 PM

165. What a rare and pleasant surprise to find somebody who

gives a damn about punctuation! The growing ignorance of and disdain for good punctuation sometimes drives me to distraction.

Too many "anything-goes-whatever" proponents make dozens of posts practically unreadable.

Good punctuation is like good road signage. It helps you to know where you are and where you're going, and, more importantly, it keeps you safe from the danger of misunderstanding.

And the "Good Style Award" of the week goes to.......Jamastiene!

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:00 AM

23. Sorry bigtree. The White House confirmed it.

This is a cruel thing, and we have the right to be concerned.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:39 AM

37. confirmed?

where, when? Huffpo? wapo? NYT, Alec jones?

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:45 AM

43. How about Jay Carney? You know, the White House spokesman. Obamas spokesman.

There's your "who" to go along with your where, when? Not that you are really interested. Obama included it in his counter proposal.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #43)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:48 AM

49. can you

spell 'trial balloon'?

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #49)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:55 AM

54. Sure I can. Can you spell stupid?

I'm sure you can. Because a trial balloon like that is just stupid, and fucking cruel.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #54)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:08 PM

138. slick

not

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #49)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:19 AM

75. If it was a 'trial balloon', then DU is right to shoot it down

If the administration wants to know how a chained CPI index would go down, then DU saying, repeatedly, "outrageous" is the best possible things we can do.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #75)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:44 AM

107. true

makes some sense. But some of these comments border, to me, on downright hateful suspicion, and this POTUS is one of the best humans, in that position, as we have had in 2 generations. I'm not so ready to put him in the trash can based on the actions of other president's like Cheney for one and his puppet Bushmonkey. Quiet as I kept it, I didn't like Clinton that much, especially after the telecommunications bill he pushed through that went a long way toward giving the murdoch's type of media snakes/extremists, POXnews for one, the leeway they have today. Raygun and bush sr. speak for themselves. I agree with that explanation of yours.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #49)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:39 AM

96. Can you spell 'lie'?

the trial balloon was last week. Pelosi and Durbin told him to forget, and he allegedly agreed. Now it's a week later and the cuts are being confirmed.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #43)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:56 AM

57. Link? Transcript? nt

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Response to Javaman (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:31 AM

88. Sure

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/12/18/press-briefing-press-secretary-jay-carney-12182012

MR. CARNEY: Well, letís be clear about one thing: The President didnít put it on the table. This is something that Republicans want. And it is --

Q But the Republicans --

MR. CARNEY: -- part of his -- if I could please answer Samís question, Iíd appreciate it. And the President did include it in his counterproposal, his counteroffer, as part of this process, as part of the negotiation process. I would note that this is a technical change -- would be if instated -- to the way that economists calculate inflation, and it would affect every program that has -- that uses the CPI in its calculations. And so itís not directed at one particular program; it would affect every program that uses CPI. There are also -- as part of the Presidentís proposals, he would make sure that the most vulnerable were exempted out from this change.

See this part?

something that Republicans want.

And see this part ?

And the President did include it in his counterproposal, his counteroffer. Repeat And the President did include it in his counterproposal, his counteroffer.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #88)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:44 AM

108. huh, what I see is this...

A trial balloon that has yet to be decided on.

Also he states that "he would make sure that the most vulnerable were exempted out from this change."

there is no agreement yet and until there is, I'm not going to feed into the echo chamber of the pres "caving".

In the meantime, I will write to the various congress people whom I have written to in the past to express my feelings regarding any potential change to SS (because it's still only a potential change at the moment) as something I won't agree to.

However, until the pres comes out and spells out the agreement, all we are dealing with here is potentials, not confirms nothing written in stone.

So, like I said in another post, I will wait and see before I choose to set my hair on fire which would be a little tough since I don't have any.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #108)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:50 AM

114. Then you aren't looking or reading, the link is there.

If that's a trial balloon, it's stupid and cruel. Now if you want to call the White House spokesman a liar then do what you want. No one has said there is an agreement. The truth is, Obama included a chained CPI in his counter proposal.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #114)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:00 PM

122. Did I say he was a liar?

you know as much as I do, I have a different perspective.

I was never one to run around with my hair on fire, I find that activity very exhausting.

And honestly, I don't really care if you agree with me or not, my opinion is just as valid as yours.

So regardless of how each one of us feels or believes we will both have to wait and see, no?

Cheers.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #122)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:03 PM

127. My hair isn't on fire.

but it does piss me off that he would even go there. Cheers to you, and have a nice holiday.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #127)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:27 PM

149. It was wrong to say your hair was on fire...

there does seem to be others here on DU that do have their hair on fire. (I apologize, I just like saying hair on fire. )

Cheers and you have a great holiday as well.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #88)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:35 PM

175. Grandma may lose her heat, some food, maybe her life. but it's just a technical change.


Because some Republican wants it.

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #175)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:50 PM

182. That's right, and if you are a Veteran who served this country

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Response to Autumn (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:58 AM

61. please post a link to the exact statement you refer to. The White House website has all comments up.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:45 AM

109. Here

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/12/18/press-briefing-press-secretary-jay-carney-12182012

MR. CARNEY: Well, letís be clear about one thing: The President didnít put it on the table. This is something that Republicans want. And it is --

Q But the Republicans --

MR. CARNEY: -- part of his -- if I could please answer Samís question, Iíd appreciate it. And the President did include it in his counterproposal, his counteroffer, as part of this process, as part of the negotiation process. I would note that this is a technical change -- would be if instated -- to the way that economists calculate inflation, and it would affect every program that has -- that uses the CPI in its calculations. And so itís not directed at one particular program; it would affect every program that uses CPI. There are also -- as part of the Presidentís proposals, he would make sure that the most vulnerable were exempted out from this change.

See this part?

something that Republicans want.

And see this part ?

And the President did include it in his counterproposal, his counteroffer. Repeat And the President did include it in his counterproposal, his counteroffer.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:01 AM

25. I prefer the activist route.

Sign the petitions, make the phone calls, stand among the demonstrators.

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Response to ananda (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:11 AM

29. Yes! I agree! By posting concerns it gets people to take action before it is too late!

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:10 AM

28. I blame some of this on trial balloons sent out wide and far, to see what the reaction will be

I have no problem believing that there's staffers whose job it is to send out "anonymous" trial balloons. If they get a reaction then they can measure that and weigh it.

So some of the misinformation comes from the WH testing the waters. Why wouldn't DU be a target? I presume Daily Kos is as well. Probably some of the other sites like Americablog etc.

I take a lot of this with a grain of salt until I hear it from named officials willing to go on record.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:26 AM

83. I think it is a little more than a grain of salt.

For them to need to test this with a trial balloon is frightening. The reaction should be very well know on this one. No balloon necessary. That is why I don't mind the reaction, it is expected.

And Carney is a named official.

That being said, it could be a way in the end for the administration to say "look, we fought for you". Put it on the table then take it off.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #83)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:43 AM

105. I was speaking in generalities, rather than the specifics of this deal

in answering bigtree.

But point taken nonetheless.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:17 AM

32. Get Real

This post is a joke. It is verifiable, SS cost of living is on the table. Oh, let's wait until it's approved and then we should bitch?
I called and e-mailed the White House and my reps.
Maybe the President has learned how to play poker (negotiate) I'm not waiting to find out.

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Response to watoos (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:37 AM

36. I emailed also!

I've been calling for the last hour and a half- can't get through.
I feel so betrayed by Obama- just like when he took single payer off the table. Leopards can't change their spots and snakes can't change their stripes. All that wasted time defending him, donating, etc., and within weeks he stabs me in the back. He LIED to us, plain and simple!

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Response to watoos (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:46 AM

45. It is difficult to understand that people will not believe what has been confirmed by the WH

He is not only willing to put SS on the table but also go back on his word about raising the rates on those making more than 250K. My newspaper says he is now offering to make it 400K. Indeed, it has become only a choice between who would be worse. So much for that mandate and capital.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:34 AM

35. bravo

for you. There is a plethora of people on this site spreading very infectious 'sky is falling' chicken little garbage. Man the fire station needed for all the hair on fire couldn't handle what's needed. I'm just going to wait and see as to whether my vote was for a human being with my retiree needs in mind, with other needs of at risk americans also addressed, or do we have a vulture politician ready, as most Obama bashers on here state, to sell our desires, needs and hopes down the river. I respect your wisdom.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #35)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:39 AM

38. It has been confirmed by the White House!!!!

Only weeks after the election where he made pledges and promises, he goes back on his word! Reality check!

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Response to marew (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:41 AM

40. link please!

and please no 'some people say' at Huffpo crap

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Response to Whisp (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:06 AM

67. Obama finally admits cuts to Medicare, Social Security are on the table 12/12/2012 12:32pm

http://americablog.com/2012/12/obama-cuts-social-security-medicare-on-table.html

http://americablog.com/2012/12/gop-agrees-to-raise-taxes-challenges-obama-to-cut-social-programs.html


President Obama has indicated that he would support major cuts to Social Security benefits by endorsing a "chained CPI" to calculate benefits. Under these cuts, "a person age 75 in the future will get a yearly benefit thatís $653 lower after ten years of chained CPI than that person would get under the current formula. An 85-year-old will have $1,139 less to live on."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/18/1171517/-LIVEBLOG-Progressive-statements-opposing-Social-Security-benefit-cuts

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Response to marew (Reply #67)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:20 AM

78. Horseshit. Obama has "finally admitted" no such thing.

In fact, re: Medicare, he said: "When you look at the evidence, itís not clear that it actually saves a lot of money". But funny how "AmericaBlog" didn't bold and emphasize that part.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #78)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:36 AM

93. Obviously your head is in the "c***"!

Bernie Sanders was just on MSNBC talking about this White House capitulation!

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Response to marew (Reply #93)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:37 AM

95. Put up or shut up. YOU said " Obama finally admits"

Either provide a direct quote from Obama about this or admit that your post and your links were completely wrong.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #95)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:58 AM

121. Duh genius!

I did not write it! That was the headline on the article!!!!!


ALSO: What's on the table now in 'fiscal cliff' talks
By By The Associated Press | Associated Press Ė 8 hrs ago

http://news.yahoo.com/whats-table-now-fiscal-cliff-talks-184340716--finance.html


"SOCIAL SECURITY

Obama is offering to reduce cost-of-living increases for Social Security recipients. Republicans have been seeking this as a key to long-term deficit reduction. But many congressional Democrats oppose it.

Government pensions and veterans' benefits would also get smaller cost-of-living increases.

In addition, taxpayers, especially low- and middle-income families, would pay more because of changes in the way that tax brackets are adjusted for inflation."

Also:http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-social-security-cpi-fiscal-cliff-deal-boehner-2012-12

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Response to marew (Reply #121)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:04 PM

131. No shit. But YOU posted the article!

Are you disavowing your source now? Care to admit that, in fact, you have nothing from Obama?

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Response to marew (Reply #93)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:57 AM

119. Bernie was shitting his pants over the public option too

but finally settled down to reality.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #119)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:02 PM

126. Ad hominen attacks against Bernie Sanders? LOL! That's all you've got!

You are the one not in touch with reality!

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Response to marew (Reply #126)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:07 PM

137. I like Bernie as much as the next guy/gal here

but he does crow along with the murder of crows in stuff like this. It's his job to be the 'most progressive' and fall into the pack of screamers.

and what makes him so hands off special when I hear all the putrid shitty lying here about Obama every freaking day.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #119)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:46 PM

162. I see the next stage of greiving is in progress

the OP of this thread was, "He's not cutting SS". Now you've moved on to, "He's cutting SS because he has to".

Same sequence with every capitulation for 4 years.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #162)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:05 PM

167. capitulation

such a big word for little faiths.

exactly how many times did Obama do this capitulation thing? Was he free and open to get exactly what he wanted but 'caved, capitulated and broke down' just for the fun of it? Is the opposition in congress just a figment of our imaginations?

what utter trashy rubbish garbage that you would count the 'capitulations' over 4 years.

please name them.

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Response to marew (Reply #67)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:47 AM

113. the top link:

Boehner and House Republicans have proposed curbing the rate of increase for Social Security payments and raising the eligibility age for Medicare, among other changes, which are non-starters for many Obama supporters. In his interview with Walters, the president hinted at new flexibility on entitlement spending cuts, but only once Republicans concede on top tax rates.

ďIf the Republicans can move on that then we are prepared to do some tough things on the spending side,Ē Obama said. ďTaxes are going to go up one way or another. And I think the key is that taxes go up on high-end individuals.Ē

Raising the Medicare eligibility age from 65 to 67 is ďsomething thatís been floated,Ē Obama said, not dismissing the idea outright.

ďWhen you look at the evidence, itís not clear that it actually saves a lot of money,Ē he said. ďBut what Iíve said is letís look at every avenue, because what is true is we need to strengthen Social Security, we need to strengthen Medicare for future generations, the current path is not sustainable because weíve got an aging population and health care costs are shooting up so quickly.Ē

==
There is nothing there, in my opinion, that says anything near CUTS. Obama is dangling the vague carrot for the Repugs but others are taking it, again! Yes, there may be changes to med and ss, positive ones, not the dreaded cuts. Cutting programs like that is not Obama's style. This reminds me so much about how Paul Ryan twisted and bent that 700 billion medicare money that did not come from the people, as he claimly lied about dozens of times, but from the insurers and providers, but never mind small details like that!

==
as for the dailykos link:
resident Obama has indicated that he would support major cuts to Social Security benefits by endorsing a "chained CPI" to calculate benefits. Under these cuts, "a person age 75 in the future will get a yearly benefit thatís $653 lower after ten years of chained CPI than that person would get under the current formula. An 85-year-old will have $1,139 less to live on."


Are they relying on the same first link you have? If so, same story from me on this.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:24 AM

81. Obama Social Security offer at odds with top Dems

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20121219/DA38NE300.html

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Barack Obama's offer to slow the growth of Social Security benefits would force fellow Democrats in Congress to abandon promises to shield the massive retirement and disability program from cuts as part of negotiations to avoid the year-end fiscal cliff.

Both Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., pledged not to touch Social Security as part of deficit reduction talks. Now that Obama and House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, have agreed to a new measure of inflation that would reduce annual cost-of-living adjustments, or COLAs, for Social Security and other government programs, Democrats are reluctant to call it a deal-breaker.

As Obama and Boehner continued to haggle over how much to raise taxes and cut spending, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney called the new inflation measure a technical adjustment designed to make inflation estimates more accurate, and he emphasized it's Republicans who want it.

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Response to marew (Reply #81)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:01 PM

124. Publicly, the top Democrats are at odds with Obama's offer.

 

Senator Durbin's recent comments indicates that this is just for show.

"Pressed on why the White House is backing this, given that itís bad policy, Durbin blamed Republicans, saying they were insisting on including it in a final deal. 'The president is trying to get to an agreement, and I understand that,' Durbin said. ďBoehner has been adamant that he wants Chained CPI.'

" 'The Speaker and many of his Republican friends are hell bent on Chained CPI,' Durbin continued. 'It may be part of an overall solution (later) but to do it at this stage is the wrong way to go.'

"Durbin pointedly said that it would be a 'hard ask' for many Senate Dems if the White House includes Chained CPI for Social Security in a final deal. But Durbin declined to rule out the possibility that Senate Democrats would ultimately support it if the White House insisted on it."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2012/12/18/dick-durbin-no-cut-in-social-security-benefits/


Durbin said that a chained-CPI should be supported by Democratic politicians later rather than at the present. He is saying that it should be on a separate table, rather than on the current one. His support for a chained-CPI is clear. He is only questioning the timing.

He also clearly says that if the White Houses insists upon it, a chained-CPI will be supported now rather than later.

Either way, we're going to get screwed. President Obama is not up for re-election and isn't accountable to anyone. His position, and the pretense that top Democrats are opposed to his position, is just to give them cover.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:32 AM

89. Seems you are the purveyor of 'crap' and denial!!!!

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Response to Whisp (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:40 AM

99. Enrique quoted it in #13; here's the White House Transcript

Q Yes, Jay, a lot of top Democrats on the Hill, and I think President Obama, spent the campaign season saying, letís not touch Social Security -- it doesnít add to the deficit; we can resolve this issue without going to that entitlement program. What is the Presidentís message to those lawmakers who promised constituents that Social Security would not be touched after the President now has put chain CPI on the table for Republicans?

MR. CARNEY: Well, letís be clear about one thing: The President didnít put it on the table. This is something that Republicans want. And it is --

Q But the Republicans --

MR. CARNEY: -- part of his -- if I could please answer Samís question, Iíd appreciate it. And the President did include it in his counterproposal, his counteroffer, as part of this process, as part of the negotiation process. I would note that this is a technical change -- would be if instated -- to the way that economists calculate inflation, and it would affect every program that has -- that uses the CPI in its calculations. And so itís not directed at one particular program; it would affect every program that uses CPI. There are also -- as part of the Presidentís proposals, he would make sure that the most vulnerable were exempted out from this change.

But letís be clear, this is something that the Republicans have asked for, and as part of an effort to find common ground with the Republicans, the President has agreed to put this in his proposal -- agreed to have this as part of a broad deficit reduction package that includes asking the wealthiest to pay more so that we can achieve the kind of revenue targets that are necessary for a balanced approach to deficit reduction.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/12/18/press-briefing-press-secretary-jay-carney-12182012

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #99)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:00 PM

123. Thank you! n/t

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Response to marew (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:47 AM

46. okay

whatever you say. Better put that fire out before all your hair is gone. Just some friendly advice.

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Response to marew (Reply #38)


Response to marew (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:58 AM

60. PROOF!

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Response to ywcachieve (Reply #60)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:08 AM

69. Posted above!

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:39 AM

39. Your post is untrue. Obama made it

 

his intention to cut Social Security even before re-election. The payroll tax cut was the first real step toward that end. But with respect to what he is doing now, it has been researched by many others who spend more time doing so than people like you. I have read your posts for years. There doesn't seem to be ANYTHING the white house could do that would be wrong to you.

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Response to plethoro (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:03 AM

65. Most proof of your accusation. Only solid proof is valid when statements are made.

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Response to ywcachieve (Reply #65)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:26 AM

84. The White House spokesmen made the statement. I saw it. It was not a trial balloon.....nft

 

dddddddddddd

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Response to plethoro (Reply #84)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:03 PM

129. Exactly! n/t

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Response to plethoro (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:03 PM

128. "even before re-election". Bullshit...

this is exactly the type of post the OP is talking about.

Sid

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:44 AM

41. so many

on this site hate and mistrust our President. He may have gotten some wrong advice in the past, at least advice that went contrary to progressive wishes. Yet I do think he has learned from his mistakes and will make the right decisions when it comes to at risk americans. Yes hate! With the spouting off as to whether he's center right as clinton was, or just a plain old repug in sheep's clothing, a lot of you are shameful. Period.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:57 AM

59. Shameful?

While I haven't always agreed with the President - and at times have been very upset by his decisions, I was a strong supporter in both 2008 and in 2012. I never would have expected him to be willing to cut social security. As others here have pointed out - this has been confirmed by the White House. I'm not sure what's shameful about pointing out the truth or being angry about it in this case. The President is making a big mistake that could very well lead to major defeats for democrats in future elections. Social security does not need to be cut.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #59)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:04 PM

132. Obama

HAS NOT confirmed anything. If he stabs all of us in the back, okay I will apologize, eat a lot of crow, probably end up living under an overpass and die. So what. Politicians have always been mistrusted and not without reason. I just choose to try to trust this one. Period. If I am wrong then the naysayers are right. So be it.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #132)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:16 PM

171. Check your mailbox, I think President Obama was sending out handwritten letters today. n/t

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:46 AM

44. Unreliable sources to promote the president okay?

Is that great in your book? So far, I don't see one credible source on your side to say he's wonderful, he walks on water, he's not offering cuts to social security (which has been reported by reliable media outlets like NPR).

Considering that some people will say anything from the MSM is too corrupt to rely on for anything (when criticizing Obama), and the MSM might include alternet and TYT in their minds, what the hell do you want? What motive does the MSM have now, anyway? Are they trying to keep Obama from winning a 3rd term?

Not only that, but anything said here can be checked against Google and Snopes if you want to test it. Providing sources was a reasonable demand before the Internet. Now, it's the phoniest argument in the book. The only job a poster has now is to make you curious enough to find it yourself. If it's something remote, like just reported in a scientific magazine, then there's a reason. The demand is now practically only made to obfuscate discussion.

Now, when I disagree with something and I know the fact is wrong, I tell the poster to check it, do their research. I usually don't demand a source, except when I can't find it first. What is my providing a source going to do if they can't bring up Google and look? Saving them three clicks on the mouse is supposed to make them curious and open-minded?

Obama's offer on Social Security has been reported everywhere. Huffington Post, headline story yesterday.

On other Obama matters, if I provide a source, like, say, Glen Greenwald or Juan Cole, then Greenwald and Cole are attacked as being unreliable, even though they both source their writing meticulously. If the person were interested in sources, they would have checked the sources of Greenwald's information before coming back to negate him as a source.

We're not going to stop Obama from winning another term. If debate about policy can't take place in a lame duck term, when can it take place?




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Response to caseymoz (Reply #44)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:36 PM

176. Usually the only thing providing a source does is give them something else to complain about.

In this day and age of being able to find multiple sources to confirm whatever you want confirmed, any source that disagrees with your thinking is automatically corrupt in some way. Notice in this thread that the White House Spokesperson is not a credible source.

There were multiple signs before the election pointing to just this exact outcome. Instead of believing the facts, many on DU preferred to stick their head in the sand. During the election was the time to confront President Obama about these things, force him to take a stand, one he would have a hard time changing. We all know where he would have had to stand to get reelected. But the foolish "you can't bring that up now or President Obama won't get reelected" was thrown in your face if it was mentioned.

None of this excuses President Obama walking in opposite directions down both sides of the street at the same time so everyone could hear either the truth or what they wanted to believe.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #176)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:49 PM

181. Ask yourself: would it have mattered?


Not when his opponent was Romney.

I knew Obama would do exactly what he's offering to do now, and unfortunately, it wouldn't have mattered very much for my vote. I'm just glad we're not losing more and I'm looking forward to reversing this injustice.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:47 AM

47. thanks bigtree

much as i love DU, i will say that i have arduously avoided reading any of those threads. i think you have expressed very well my reasons why.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #47)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:56 AM

56. This site says 'Democratic' Underground, but it is not.

There are so many Repubs on here, the name should be changed.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:52 AM

51. +1000

HU - Hyperbole Underground.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:55 AM

53. LMSP loves bigtree...and hopes his Christmas is merry.



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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:55 AM

55. We need an "uskewed" version of DU.

Without all those pesky people saying things we don't like.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:56 AM

58. ITA....

.....I think some people fancy themselves political analysts aka DU psychics, and pose their incredibly destructive opinions as fact. Good thing it isn't their day job.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:00 AM

62. Yup...

Unless the Admins decide to clean house, we can expect 4 years of breathless proclamations of "Traitor!" and "fulfilling his dream" and "he's a Republican" and he's a "lying Republican", every time someone plants a story in the media.

4. Fucking. Years. Of. It.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #62)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:25 AM

82. This is a business, Sid, controversy drives clicks which drives profits

Make DU an echo chamber for pom pom wavers and traffic will drop dramatically.

Psychology 101 and Business 101.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #82)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:37 AM

94. Yup.

Right-wing spew used to be grounds for tombstoning here. Now it feeds the corporate till.

How DU has changed.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #94)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:46 AM

110. It's almost astonishing how corrosive the effects of money are on morality

There seem to be very few who can resist the lure of the right wing siren call when the money starts rolling in.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #82)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:39 AM

98. BEST EXPLANATION

 

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:00 AM

64. The problem is we wait and react. We do not lead/push policy which is what needs to happen.

In order to impact policy we have to be on the offensive. We don't sit back and hope daddy didn't lie to us. Get busy!! All this nonsense about sit and wait. Let's bring it to them. That is our part in this process. This is what we want, we hired you.
Provocateurs and baiters?? Horribly corrupt?? Demagogues and opportunists?? Were you born yesterday? Talk about inflammatory, over-the-top rhetoric. Most of us don't come here to be told what to think. So if it so overwhelming, just remember to think for yourself.

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Response to WCLinolVir (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:27 AM

85. But who woulda thought a Dem Prez would screw over seniors?

The left side helped mobilize a massive anti-war effort when the GOPers were in office

Maybe everyone's a little shocked

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:05 AM

66. Dear Bigtree. This is Democratic UNDERGROUND, the loyal opposition

to stupid political, national security and economic moves.

We were here with the dog and pony show over "Health Care reform" that got us a huge ugly windfall for the insurance companies when this President not only started negotiating from where he wanted to end up (not from the whole pony position to meet somewhere in the middle), wasting political capital, lives etc and lying to us folks who actually thought that we might have some input because of the Town Halls and his campaign promises.

We found out later that the deal had been struck with the medical industries without our input long before. Same song and dance from the party faithful as you are trying here. "It isn't a done deal, don't worry."

Social Security and Medicare are worth getting all worked up about when this President starts mentioning them as being brought to this negotiating table where they do not belong not now, not ever, period.

I am loyal to my country, my fellow and future Americans and then my representatives when it comes to life and death issues that are being put up for bargaining chips in return for only a slight return towards their fair share of restoring this the best,country in so many things we are now 3rd world because of their actions.

Off the table or over the cliff or Mr President you do not represent the well being of my family, friends and me. I had ancestors at Plymouth Rock, at Jamestown. My ancestors were Godparents to President Madison's brother in Virginia. They fought in all the wars, both sides of the Civil War. I also have grandparents who spoke Norwegian, German and Dutch in their birth homes.

I believe in America, in the Constitution and the social contract negotiated during the last depression and I am willing to type, yell, fax or fight with anyone who thinks that these are things to be bargained away with rather than improved even the party I voted for, even my President and my fellow DUers.

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Response to kickysnana (Reply #66)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:33 AM

90. Great post, kickysnana..................nft

 

dddddddd

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Response to kickysnana (Reply #66)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:52 AM

115. Excellent post

I too, believe in America, the Constitution and our social contract. I'm not much for yelling, but I'm always ready to type, fax, fight - and argue quietly.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:07 AM

68. THANK YOU!! Totally agree with everything you wrote. nt

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:13 AM

70. Why am I reminded of this exchange from the 1993 movie "Tombstone?"


Wyatt Earp: I just want you to know it's over between us.
Curly Bill: Well... bye.
Johnny Ringo: Smell that, Bill? Smells like someone died.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:15 AM

71. YES. I HATE HATE HATE when DUers post rumors with no credible source!!!!

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #71)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:33 AM

91. Priceless!

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #71)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:40 AM

101. These rumors are awful!

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #71)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:44 PM

178. Oh Snap!!

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:16 AM

72. I agree !

If we can point to Fox (news ?) for it's lack of reliable, accurate information, and we encounter people on this forum passing along things as fact without sourcing their information beyond "nameless sources", what's the difference ? We can believe as we wish, we can have points of view which opens healthy debate, and with this we should be clear when we're commenting along those lines.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:20 AM

76. Kicked, Recommended and Bookmarked! I can't thank you enough bigtree!!

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:24 AM

80. Thanks for this post.

The absolute certainty with which some posters 'know' that Obama is an orc in hobbit's clothing is embarrassing to the site.

I like facts. The idea that Barack Obama is somehow going to sell the elderly to the devil for the sheer amusement of it all is ridiculously insupportable. Building a culture of mistrust from the left in a man who is obviously one of the most ethical and progressive presidents in US history serves the devil.

If there is a devil, which I doubt. Although -- Scalia --

Nervous Nellies everywhere, panicking over rumors. I don't buy any of it. Let's see what happens in real life, without the left-infowars tilt.

Embarrassing.

Thanks for this post.

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Response to byronius (Reply #80)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:33 PM

173. +1

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:30 AM

87. This looks suspiciously like a GCW post

disguised as a Jonathan Edwards screed on the wickedness of sinners.

I like it. Except for the whiny part. And the part where you are the sole purveyor of truth. And the telling the rest of DU what to do - which is, apparently, never okay unless you're the one doing it.

Those parts not so much.

But hey! Don't let the door hit ya . . .

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:39 AM

97. So why isn't the White House DENYING these reports?

 

I would think - but that's just me - that given the extreme uproar these reports have caused, the very real fear they are causing among SS recipients, and the concern being expressed by groups like AARP, the White House would waste no time in denying these reports in no uncertain terms. You know the same way they have said they would veto Boehner's Plan B.

But they haven't issued a single denial that I have seen.

Why? Looking forward to your response.

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #97)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:42 AM

102. Denying them one day after confirming them would be too obvious

It's a done deal, MP. Right after the DU flood of denial comes the flood of excuses. Should be here by Friday

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:42 AM

103. Go ahead.

Pretend we are so stupid and blind we can't see the reality in front of us.

This will be the end of Democratic Party.

Spin it any way you please.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #103)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:58 AM

120. Hyperbolic nonsense based on vapor.

As much as you wish that to happen.


Glass agendas are easily seen through.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #120)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:28 PM

152. Watch and learn, Grasshopper.

Or don't.

Matters zilch.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:43 AM

106. Well said, i think I will also take a break from here for a while

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:47 AM

111. OH THE HUMANITY!!

I am reserving judgment on the fiscal cliff negotiations until I see some kind of concrete deal on the table, but HOLY SHIT are ALL of you a bunch of big ole drama queens!

Do you think this...whatever it is...is any better than what 'they' are doing?? Instead of picking up your sackcloth and ashes and running home, why not just be RATIONAL? Provocateurs? REALLY?? Or maybe they are just the usual hard core libs who go apeshit every single time something doesn't go their way?

You are all crazy.

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Response to renie408 (Reply #111)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:56 AM

118. Hmm...

"You are all crazy. "

The voices in my head don't think so....

You're right, there isn't any kind of concrete deal yet, but the very fact that the President is willing to negotiate social security cuts is troubling. This is a program that really doesn't need to be messed with.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #118)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:07 PM

136. I agree.

It is troubling. But OH MY GOD, you would think the man had said he was going to cut costs by killing all the Social Security recipients over 75 years old.

I do not understand how many of the people here do not suffer from 'outrage exhaustion', they are so continually OUTRAGED, OUTRAGED I TELL YOU!!

Who can beat their breast that often without doing themselves some damage? And it is on either side of whichever new defugledy is happening.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:47 AM

112. I get the impression thart that is the intention.

Politics gets trolled, you know!

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:55 AM

116. Im surprised everyone is in such a rush to attack Obama

Here he is threatening a veto so to those attacking Obama based on as the OP states misinformation should start your apology tour now:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/19/fiscal-cliff-plan-b-obama_n_2330457.html

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Response to LostinRed (Reply #116)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:04 PM

133. Your problem is that we have too much experience with President Obama to disregard that.

 

As early as 2008, when he was campaigning and promised to filibuster any Bill that would give immunity to the telecoms that spied upon all of us for the Bush Administration, we learned that his promise to filibuster didn't mean a thing. As the Democratic nominee, he then came back to Washington and provided leadership so that he and other Democratic politicians would vote in favor of such immunity for the telecoms.

That's just one example.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #133)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:06 PM

135. Too true!

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:56 AM

117. You want a credible source? How about Sen Durbin? He says that he wants chained-CPI, but not

 

just now. He wants more than one table, and he wants it on a different table.

He also said that if Obama asks for a chained-CPI at the current time, he and other Democratic politicians will support it.

"Pressed on why the White House is backing this, given that itís bad policy, Durbin blamed Republicans, saying they were insisting on including it in a final deal. 'The president is trying to get to an agreement, and I understand that,' Durbin said. ďBoehner has been adamant that he wants Chained CPI.'

" 'The Speaker and many of his Republican friends are hell bent on Chained CPI,' Durbin continued. 'It may be part of an overall solution (later) but to do it at this stage is the wrong way to go.'

"Durbin pointedly said that it would be a 'hard ask' for many Senate Dems if the White House includes Chained CPI for Social Security in a final deal. But Durbin declined to rule out the possibility that Senate Democrats would ultimately support it if the White House insisted on it."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2012/12/18/dick-durbin-no-cut-in-social-security-benefits/


Durbin is saying that a chained-CPI should be supported by Democratic politicians later rather than at the present. He is saying that it should be on a separate table, rather than on the current one. His support for a chained-CPI is clear. He is only questioning the timing.

He also clearly says that if the White Houses insists upon it, a chained-CPI will be supported now rather than later.

Either way, we're going to get screwed.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:02 PM

125. absolutely 100% correct

k&r

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:05 PM

134. A simple solution. Televise all the negotiations.

Every wink, nod, smile, handshake, email, pat on the back.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:09 PM

139. Didn't take long for the bully in bigtree to come back out

Everyone has to do what you say or you will stomp your feet and leave.

Got it

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:10 PM

140. Thank you for posting this bigtree.

Imho, it needed to be said.

Personally, when I see the kinds of threads you are referring to, I don't bother to open them. I don't have the time or inclination to confront those who think they are ok, and it just ends up frustrating me. Probably wouldn't change minds anyway, since quite honestly, I don't consider myself that great of a writer, and my debating skills are only fair to 'middling' .

But I appreciate people like yourself who have the courage to stand up to this sort of thing. Take a break if you must, but please don't be gone for too long. I enjoy your threads, especially all of the great pics you provide.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:17 PM

142. Alas, the place is already a joke-- you've been here through...

the primary wars, the fried chicken wars...

But there was always some substance to hang on to so it wasn't a total waste. We had parties and meetups and actually met each other. We had people of political substance posting.

Now, the chaff outweighs the grain by far. I thought the nadir was when we chased off a Kerry staffer with a loud minority claiming he knew nothing of elections, but maybe not. Maybe that was just the first evidence that an anonymous board where no one had to personally own up to anything was not the place to be.

Joke? Maybe more nonentity. I'm on my town's Democratic committee, and I have never heard DU mentioned at all, except when I mentioned it once and got nothing but shrugs.

There are some topics here where any hint of dissent gets you swarmed and others are an automatic death match. The jury system is now a crapshoot with a few working on gaming it for some advantage that defies rational thought.

Sources? Mention the NY Times or NPR and guaranteed in the first few responses someone will call them rightwing shills rather than discuss the article in question. Even the random politically incorrect word in a post risks bringing down the swarm, no matter what the source, and the actual subject be damned.

This latest kefuffle over SS is yet another tempest in a teapot now that the gun thing is calming down a little. Redefining reducing increases as a cut is a nasty rhetorical flourish that shouldn't be allowed, although there are too many here saying it to keep up with alerts.

It keeps popping up, but never taken seriously enough, that the enemy is not Democrats that aren't Democratic enough for our tastes but it's the right wing of the Republican party that is screwing things up.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #142)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:25 PM

146. The NYT and NPR can no longer be trusted to print the truth

It's as simple as that, they ruined their credibility by shilling WMDs in Iraq among other things.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #146)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:35 PM

155. See? I told ya this would happen.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #155)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:38 PM

156. So you trust proven liars? n/t

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:17 PM

143. You're making a big deal out of nothing

Somebody floated cuts in Social Security. I'm not sure who did it but it was done. So obviously whoever did it wanted some feedback on how the public feels about it and now that is happening.

Why is that a bad thing? Should we wait for a deal to be finalized before opening our mouths and letting them know what we think?

Saying Obama "caved" and the like when there really is no deal yet is a bit over the top, but sometimes hyperbole helps express the raw emotion in peoples' opinions so I think it's actually a healthy thing to do.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:21 PM

144. Lots of low count posters on this thread

are very, very "concerned", and we should be, too! Yep yep yepper, you betcha

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #144)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:27 PM

148. The election is over. If they are opposing the destruction of SS, they should be welcomed.

 

Post counts, such as comparing yours to theirs, or yours to mine, doesn't mean a thing.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #148)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:33 PM

153. Yes, it now seems that those opposed to cutting SS are in danger of

being banned from DU.

How the hell did we get to this point?

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #153)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:42 PM

160. Some possibilities: 1) Stockholm Syndrom; 2) Donald Segretti / Karl Rove types; 3) kids operating

 

out of their mothers' basements; and 4) the sincere and truly stupid.

As said by Albert Einstein,
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe."

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:25 PM

145. Only Certain People KNOW What Lurks On Obama's Soul! Only THEY Know His Deep, Dark Motivations!!

They know, deep down inside that he really, really, really wants to dismantle the social safety net, even though his actual ACTIONS have only protected and strengthened it. They know he is really engaged in super secret game of n-dimensional chess in which he does things like EXPAND Medicare and Medicaid because he REALLY wants to cut them!

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:27 PM

147. Thank you.

I've started "ignoring" the many doomsdayers. If I wanted to see the kind of garbage that is being posted now on DU, I'd go to Freeperland. What is wrong with these people?

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:27 PM

150. You miss a big point

You presume information coming from the White House is any more accurate than speculation about the White House.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:28 PM

151. Agree

I am behind President Obama no matter what. I can't imagine being in his shoes and trying to make a deal with the other side.

It doesn't bother me that he may go from $250,000 to $400,000. That was a number, a starting point and you have to start somewhere.
I am sure in any negotiations you rarely end at the number you start at. I am patient to see what he can do and have faith in him
to do more then what anyone had before, President Clinton.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)


Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:38 PM

157. Deficit

SS has no impact on the deficit what so ever. Cross that bridge @ another time. Seniors have been trying to live on LOW interest rates so the economy recovers for the last 4 YEARS. Why put so much on the backs of seniors who worked for the past 35+ years.
The President just comes across as WEAK when it comes to dealing with the Repubs. They will take a mile if you give them an inch.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:39 PM

158. You are correct, across the board.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:43 PM

161. An old union negotiator once told me

that to get what you want you have to get your foot in the door 1st; that is what the chained-CPI is, a foot in the door. Republicans created the deficit for a reason, it wasn't a mistake, they want that Social Security and Medicare money.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:50 PM

164. Let me correct you friend.

Misinformation is unintentionally misleading someone. The problem here at DU is disinformation.

It is knowingly and deliberately misleading people.

Just a quibble but I thought I'd throw that out there.

Julie

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:54 PM

166. What a bunch of decisive garbage.

Funny how YOU always manage to do what you complain the most about. Not funny, just boring. Another drive by post that helped divide up the forum without a link or any proof!

Good job, Trolls are applauding you everywhere!

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:06 PM

168. Mirror mirror on the wall

who is the fairest of them all?

The OP cracks me up.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:08 PM

169. Your gross generalizations about critics of the President

Are totally unfounded.

You mistake critical analysis of the president's actions and policies with hate.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:08 PM

170. Hmmm

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:32 PM

172. Yup, don't post anything, let the brilliance of 3-dimensional chess play out...

And when the result sucks, repeat, over and over, "But it's the best he could do!"

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:34 PM

174. Yep, the PUMAs are out in force

and it seems like the 2008 primaries have started all over again.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #174)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:38 PM

177. Stop with the PUMA vitriol, please. I supported Obama. Please read this.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:46 PM

179. I'm with Bigtree. The rats are already deserting the ship

And trying to take everyone else with them with their panic. I've never heard of a negotiation where you get 100% of everything you want.

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