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Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:01 AM

All the adults who died were women

In a political season where women and their rights were used as punching bags, and women like Sandra Fluke were slut-shamed for standing up for their rights, it is interesting to me that the heroes of Sandy Hook are women. Those who died saving, and trying to save, their young charges. Those who did save their kids, and kept them as safe and calm as possible until help arrived.

Women who were teachers and library clerks and psychologists. Most members of a union. The biggest "devils" of the Right.

(I am not discounting the custodian who risked his life to protect the children or any other of the brave and caring men who are part of this story, but after the last year of women and teachers taking such hits, the irony is strong.)

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Arrow 103 replies Author Time Post
Reply All the adults who died were women (Original post)
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 OP
marions ghost Dec 2012 #1
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #2
Care Acutely Dec 2012 #52
WolverineDG Dec 2012 #54
BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2012 #70
SemperEadem Dec 2012 #96
marions ghost Dec 2012 #103
Happyhippychick Dec 2012 #3
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #4
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #14
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #16
a la izquierda Dec 2012 #31
proud2BlibKansan Dec 2012 #79
Skittles Dec 2012 #92
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #94
SWTORFanatic Dec 2012 #15
John2 Dec 2012 #30
HockeyMom Dec 2012 #50
Freedomofspeech Dec 2012 #44
uponit7771 Dec 2012 #61
pasto76 Dec 2012 #95
whathehell Dec 2012 #5
Liberal_in_LA Dec 2012 #89
marions ghost Dec 2012 #6
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #11
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #12
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #18
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #24
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #25
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #26
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #27
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #32
marions ghost Dec 2012 #53
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #59
kurosagi Dec 2012 #98
seabeyond Dec 2012 #97
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #17
CTyankee Dec 2012 #51
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #63
liberalhistorian Dec 2012 #75
CTyankee Dec 2012 #80
liberalhistorian Dec 2012 #81
CTyankee Dec 2012 #87
davidn3600 Dec 2012 #22
liberalhistorian Dec 2012 #76
marions ghost Dec 2012 #91
snooper2 Dec 2012 #45
KittyWampus Dec 2012 #77
lunatica Dec 2012 #7
marions ghost Dec 2012 #8
lunatica Dec 2012 #10
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #13
Throckmorton Dec 2012 #19
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #21
JohnnyLib2 Dec 2012 #29
avebury Dec 2012 #33
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #35
JanMichael Dec 2012 #41
marions ghost Dec 2012 #46
BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2012 #72
marions ghost Dec 2012 #86
TorchTheWitch Dec 2012 #73
marions ghost Dec 2012 #82
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #20
John2 Dec 2012 #47
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #9
TahitiNut Dec 2012 #23
seaglass Dec 2012 #28
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #34
seaglass Dec 2012 #55
HockeyMom Dec 2012 #88
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #90
seaglass Dec 2012 #100
Enrique Dec 2012 #36
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #39
seaglass Dec 2012 #62
Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #37
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #38
Enrique Dec 2012 #40
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #42
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #43
krawhitham Dec 2012 #48
Bucky Dec 2012 #49
ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #66
TexasProgresive Dec 2012 #56
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #71
TexasProgresive Dec 2012 #74
marions ghost Dec 2012 #85
fleur-de-lisa Dec 2012 #57
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #65
libdem4life Dec 2012 #84
Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #58
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #67
Lex Dec 2012 #60
99Forever Dec 2012 #64
mainer Dec 2012 #68
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #69
JI7 Dec 2012 #102
amborin Dec 2012 #78
Is That All There Is Dec 2012 #83
lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #93
Iggy Dec 2012 #99
Rowdyboy Dec 2012 #101

Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:15 AM

1. Deaths of women don't get attention

--but deaths of young kids do.

Maybe because at a certain level, violent murders of women --is accepted.

"The U.S. Department of Justice has found that women are far more likely to be the victims of violent crimes committed by intimate partners than men, especially when a weapon is involved. Moreover, women are much more likely to be victimized at home than in any other place."

"A woman must consider the risks of having a gun in her home, whether she is in a domestic violence situation or not. While two thirds of women who own guns acquired them “primarily for protection against crime,” the results of a California analysis show that “purchasing a handgun provides no protection against homicide among women and is associated with an increase in their risk for intimate partner homicide.”

"A 2003 study about the risks of firearms in the home found that females living with a gun in the home were nearly three times more likely to be murdered than females with no gun in the home.6 Finally, another study reports, women who were murdered were more likely, not less likely, to have purchased a handgun in the three years prior to their deaths, again invalidating the idea that a handgun has a protective effect against homicide."

More at: http://crimeinamerica.net/2009/09/23/when-men-murder-women-state-by-state-analysis/

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:18 AM

2. The tv show The Voice had a lovely tribute on Monday

With all the finalists and "coaches" holding up the names and ages of everyone who died (including, I was lad to see, Nancy Lanza) while some of them sang. That's when it struck me that all the murdered adults were women, ranging from early 20's to about 60. Women and union teachers and support staff.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:07 AM

52. Thank you for that link! (and your post)

One can add to this that a woman is more likely to be attacked and/or killed by her partner during pregnancy than she is at other times.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:14 AM

54. I think it would be the same if adult males had died too

there's a sense that as adults, the victims at least had some sort of life, whereas 6 & 7 year olds did not. It's not that people care less about the adults but that the children never had a chance at life.....

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:17 AM

70. Women who are HEROES are ignored too.

In general.

Great article, thanks

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:36 AM

96. and leave it to conservatives

to blame women. Their war never takes a day off:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/12/19/conservative-magazine-says-shooting-caused-by-too-many-women-at-school/

The ultra-conservative National Review, who earlier suggested that Newtown was the price of the Second Amendment, recently ran an editorial from rabid anti-feminist, Charlotte Allen, who implied that the shooter was able to kill with so ease due to Newtown being a “feminized setting”. That’s right, if it weren’t for all those damn ladies doing their nails, washing dishes and performing the Vagina Monologues then not a single kid would’ve been harmed.

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Response to SemperEadem (Reply #96)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:07 PM

103. Yeah

gotta get the "feminine" out of everything.

Does anyone really doubt the War on Women?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:25 AM

3. My 12 year old asked me "why did the principal attack him when she knew she would get killed?

Why didn't she run?"

I told her that's what a mom does to protect her babies and all of those students were her babies.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:27 AM

4. What a nice answer

The school psychologist, who I believe was the oldest person killed, also ran towards the gunman to try and stop him.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:04 AM

14. I keep wondering if I could have been so brave in that situation.

I have my doubts. I hope I never have to find out.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:08 AM

16. I know, and I hope not, too

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:44 AM

31. I wondered the same thing.

I don't teach elementary school, but college.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:26 PM

79. At first I didn't think I could have done that.

But now, after several days thinking about it, I know I wouldn't want to survive if even one of my students was killed. I don't think I could handle the guilt.

So yes I know that's a selfish reason but it's honestly how I feel today.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:53 PM

92. I have no doubts whatsoever

I would try to kick his ass, paying special attention to the eyes and crotch; yes INDEED

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Response to Skittles (Reply #92)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:52 PM

94. Would that we could all be so sure of ourselves. nt

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:07 AM

15. That and tactically speaking, sometimes your odds are better charging

Of course it all depends on the situation. Facing someone with a gun (especially from medium range) is always bad news. If I'm far away from someone with a gun, I'm running away. If I'm in a crowd and someone starts firing, I'm running away.

If I'm a sitting duck at close or medium range and alone or in a small group, I'm charging - because if I run away in that situation I'm just going to get shot in the back. If I charge I stand a slim chance which is disarming the person. Again unlikely but better than getting shot in the back.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:41 AM

30. Well,

 

since I'm a man and a pretty big man, I would have went after him but differently. He had an assault weapon and two hand guns. I would have picked up the nearest heavy object and threw it at him, and then charged. Those are weapons too.

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Response to John2 (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:02 AM

50. I've actually done that

Hot steam iron in a store when the burglar came after me. Just reflexes. It worked.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:57 AM

44. That was beautiful...

And made me cry. I'm a retired teacher and trust me that is just how it is...they are your babies, no matter how old they are.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:53 AM

61. ...

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:55 PM

95. because they had the grit of a warrior inside

willingness to die in place of your neighbor or comrade is an elevated state of being. I feel the same depth of loss as I do when I read about more soldier deaths over seas or suicides. Our country lost some of the finest citizens we had friday. To the hands of a maniac

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:41 AM

5. Three quarters of the children killed were female. n/t

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Response to whathehell (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:47 PM

89. yep. n/t

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:42 AM

6. Why is it

that if all the deaths were adult women people would not care nearly so much? It's the deaths of kids that gets to people. Even people who have been taking NRA money for years apparently have some feelings left for children.

I don't understand this except to say that it fits with a society (like you point out in your OP) that puts down women constantly and ignores the daily death toll of American women.

Y'know, there IS a connection.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:59 AM

11. After the Oklahoma City bombing I felt the way you did, and I remember making the same points among

friends. I'm a feminist, and I think this is a wonderful OP, and I agree with your comment to a point.

But having become a parent (now with a school-age child) I find that there is a unique kind of horror to the idea that your child -- especially a child who isn't even old enough to get dressed by herself in the morning, and who is still at the stage where she believes her parent can fix EVERYTHING -- should die in pain and terror, far away from you. It's hard to even type this. I think that's why even the gun-nuts are broken down by this particular shooting.

Otherwise, agreed.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:01 AM

12. Humanity has a scale to which certain emotions hit them harder

The death of a child is such a visceral thing.

Let me ask you this....if all or most the adult victims were male, do you believe people would care more or less?



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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:12 AM

18. I think we would be hearing more "tales of bravery"

Like after the Colorado shooting.

I have never stated women's deaths are more important btw.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:27 AM

24. You don't think the media has properly portrayed the women as brave?

Victoria Soto, Dawn Hochsprung and Anne Marie Murphy have and should be remembered for their amazing self sacrifice. As for less "tales of bravery", more people escaped from the direct line of fire in Aurora than did Sandy Hook, leaving more opportunity for survivor's stories. I do, however, recall one story of some boyfriend high tailing it to his car and taking off, leaving his pregnant fiance behind to fend for herself in the theater.

I also never implied you placed importance about male or female deaths one way or another, I was addressing marionsghost and her point. I think there are levels to which we as society place the horror of murder....it goes children, women, men....you can even break it down further by age and race if you get into how the media portrays missing persons, for example.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:29 AM

25. yes

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:32 AM

26. Okay....

So to clarify, you think if male teachers were in those situations, they'd be getting more not just equal credit?

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:40 AM

27. I am dropping this with you

You are wanting me to say something to derail this thread. No patience for this today.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:45 AM

32. That's fine (n/m)


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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:11 AM

53. I agree with the levels

but from my perspective it would go --children, men, women. Because of the attitude in our society that women are less important, more expendable, the weaker sex. Look at the stats re murder of women...horrifying, but nothing changes. It is accepted. Women, young black men, Sikhs, Hispanics, homeless or poor--these deaths do not matter as much as the deaths of white men & white children. It's a subtle thing.

Thankfully that attitude is changing, but the Neanderthal Rethuglicons would obviously prefer that it didn't. So we are still subjected to it, and it does subtly influence general attitudes toward murder. But whatever can budge the Neanderthals....OK.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #53)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:53 AM

59. I think you're about 2 for 5 there.

I agree with you about minorities....and the poor and homeless....forget it....not even on the radar.

However, when a young white male and a young white female disappear, whom do you think is more likely to draw national coverage? Was Natalie Holloway ignored?

I think you are right that there is a perception media wise of women as "the weaker sex"....and you're wrong that it makes them expendable. Instead, they are more valuable to the media narrative. It's easier to get the viewer to empathize with a missing college age woman, because by god, she shouldn't be gone this long! What happened?

If a white male college student disappears, the immediate reaction is, he got drunk or stoned....took off somewhere....if they find him dead in water, well he just fell in and drowned. There's no scramble to investigate the possibility he was a victim of foul play, at least by the media. And guess what....it's happening more than you think!

I'd also encourage you to take a look at a lot of the workplace shootings that go on....there are a fair amount of them where white males end up the targeted victims because guess what....they are in positions of power over the disgruntled employee who comes back to kill them. And how long do those stories stay on the front page or even get discussed? Not as long as Columbine, Virginia Tech, or this one will, you can bet that. By your argument, those stories would be talked about more than this one because of victim demographics.

It irritates me because all instances of mass shootings should be a call to action, but some, because they don't hit the right emotional buttons for the media, are quickly forgotten. Anyone remember the Portland mall shooter last week? Nah, he "only" killed two....one woman and one man.



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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #59)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:01 PM

98. I agree with your class levels for media attention

...and to add to it, we rarely hear of the male human trafficking victims, however my friends who work undercover in this industry estimate that more males are trafficked here in Houston than females. Here's a little support although it is dated and only gives us reported victims. http://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/male-victims-of-sex-trafficking/

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #12)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:42 AM

97. i hear stories of men dying, all the time, cause it happens often. and it breaks my heart

and brings me to tears, each and every time.

i care.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:09 AM

17. I thought that, too

After I saw the names and ages on the placards on The Voice.

It also makes me wonder if Lanza had a hatred towards women. Or maybe not. I hate to assign him motives. It's just troubling.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:05 AM

51. This begs the question: did Lanza target that school in part because he knew women

were in charge (primarily) and he could overcome them more easily?

I have wondered this but didn't want to ask it here because emotions have been too raw. but at some point these questions should be raised.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #51)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:57 AM

63. There was a Daily Mail (UK) story that someone posted last night....

....claiming his mother DID do some volunteer work with the particular class that was targeted at the school. The claim being that Lanza was angry his mother "loved those children more than him".

I've heard nothing about this elsewhere yet.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #63)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:59 AM

75. That's been debunked. The school

has said she had no official connection with it, either as a teacher, staff, or volunteer.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #75)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:47 PM

80. My question had nothing much to do with whether his mother worked there.

He went there as a child and he was familiar with it since it was in his community. regardless of whether his mother worked/volunteered there or not...

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #80)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:59 PM

81. I was responding to Proud's posting of the

Daily Mail's article stating that she'd worked or volunteered there and that he then resented the children because of it, not to your post.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #81)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:48 PM

87. I know, sorry. I didn't mean to misrepresent your position.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:15 AM

22. What the heck are you talking about?

A kid being gunned down is ALWAYS going to get more attention than when an adult (male or female) is killed.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:06 PM

76. Except all of the too-many

children who die every single day from gun violence, usually in poor and/or minority and urban areas. Children from ages 5-14 in this country are at least ten times more likely to die from gun violence than in the other developed countries, and they're disproportionately poor and/or minority. I live on an Indian reservation and see it all the freaking time, and my parents were teachers in not-so-great areas and they saw it all the freaking time.

Yet the media doesn't care and society doesn't care, it's considered to be par for the course now. It's when it hits white kids in an affluent suburb that it somehow REALLY "matters" and there's finally talk about "how to stop it"; but what they're often referring to is mass shootings and not the numerous daily victims of guns, with a too-large share being children and poor and/or minority ones at that. In this society, frankly, only "some" children matter, not others.

And you can see that by all of the hand-wringing over "we thought we were safe here", "it wasn't supposed to happen here", etc., etc. As if it's okay if it happens to THOSE people in THOSE places, but not "here", with fairly well-off white children. Bleh.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #76)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:14 PM

91. +++++ Yes

Why should one death draw more attention and concern than another in this country?

"We thought we were safe here" -- yep, the subtext is that only some deserve the right to be safe from gun violence.

Thank you.



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Response to marions ghost (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:57 AM

45. In my opinion because adults already had some time to live life...

The younger a human is the more tragic it is as that person didn't even get a chance....

No chance to make love-
No chance to contribute to society-
No chance to do a blurnout in a 70 Charger-
No chance to say I do-
No chance to go skydiving-


and on, and on, and on---

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:13 PM

77. We also manage to ignore the daily death toll due to drones etc. By "we", I mean our society

not DU'ers.

We ignore the institutionalized violence of poverty too.

Or maybe I should say as a culture, we collectively accept it. We don't challenge it. Maybe around the margins. In areas we are comfortable talking about.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:47 AM

7. Please don't forget his mother was killed too

I know there's a lot of anger towards her, but I think it's only because people are reacting quite strongly to this and are venting without thinking. I don't believe most people really think she deserved being killed.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:49 AM

8. She didn't deserve to be killed of course

--but a mother who deliberately arms and trains her disturbed son is not exactly someone you can admire.

She is pitiable, but right now pity should be reserved for the victims.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:58 AM

10. You don't know all the facts in this tragedy

and if you think you're the perfect parent and in a position to judge all other parents then I believe you're deluding yourself.

And I don't reserve my pity to only who you may think is deserving. It's a good thing there are no laws about who one may pity.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:03 AM

13. As you say, there are no laws about who one may pity.

So you go and pity whomever you want, and let marions ghost pity whom she pities.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:12 AM

19. I have a mentally ill son who is just shy of 18,

Last edited Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:41 AM - Edit history (1)

Having him ajudicated as Non compos mentis and comitted was the second hardest thing I have ever done. After Friday, I do feel a lot better about that decision.

It took me over a year to acheive this, and I can understand the denial that his mother went through, I went through it myself when my son was 14.

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Response to Throckmorton (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:14 AM

21. Good post and great point

I agree.

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Response to Throckmorton (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:41 AM

29. What a painful decision, to say nothing of the process.


I want to praise you for taking that unhappy step, out of the very few choices there are/were. And thank you for posting the personal side so that others learn something about "walking a mile in the moccasins....."

Part of your decision might have been thinking "where will we (both) be 5 years from now." So hard to know, so hard to do.

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Response to Throckmorton (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:45 AM

33. I would be curious as to whether or not the

mother had her guns properly secured. If she suspected or knew that her son was troubled and failed to secure her weapons then I am hardly shocked at the outcome. I know someone whose son was extremely troubled (including two failed suicide attempts). The Dad worked out of state (in the oil industry) and left an unsecured rifle in the home. You can't even believe the number of times that I tried to get through to the guy about the seriousness of the situation and he just wasn't willing to acknowledge the situation and deal with it. The son's girlfriend broke up with him and the boy invited her over to the house where he committed suicide with the rifle in front of her. He could have just as easily killed the girl first. The father was devastated. I was not in the least surprised because I already knew that it was only a matter of time before something like that happened. By that time the son was a legal adult with a father who buried his head in the sand.

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Response to Throckmorton (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:46 AM

35. Best wishes to you and your family (n/m)

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Response to Throckmorton (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:51 AM

41. I am glad to see you on DU3

Best wishes to you and your family. I remember you well, and with fond memories.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:58 AM

46. Oh for heavens sake

don't take it so laterally. I am not judging "all other parents."

We DO know the woman allowed her mentally disturbed son to train with the Bushmaster--I didn't think
that fact was debatable. And yes I would judge someone harshly who did that. In fact, I feel we must.
This does not equate to the typical "mistakes" we all make as parents. It is a very different kind of "mistake" to consciously arm your mentally afflicted child with lethal weapons. Very different. About the only thing I can equate it with is a parent who would pour several drinks for their teenager and hand them keys to the car.

I am not suggesting you NOT have pity for the mother. But it is a different perspective from the pity for the innocent victims. The grief and pain that she caused has to be recognized. Parents who do this must go to jail (if they are still living). We must make providing such weapons to others a criminal act in itself.

Please don't misinterpret this point. I have all kinds of compassion for the whole family of the shooter. But I can't help but feel that the mother deserves some degree of blame, and I don't think her death lets her off the hook about that. We have to be able to state the truth about how this occurred, or it will happen again.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #46)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:34 AM

72. well said. n/t

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Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #72)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:44 PM

86. thanx

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:53 AM

73. She IS a victim

PERIOD.


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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #73)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:18 PM

82. Of course--

but a victim can also be held responsible as an enabler. If she had only been wounded and were still alive, she should be going to jail.

If you let the enablers off, you enable the NRA and their ilk. We must enact some laws that protect the innocent better than this.

I have heard today that the mother had MS, and I do know that if she was on steroid therapy, this can lead to dis-inhibition about dangers like this. If so, it still does not change the fact that she enabled the son. There IS no excuse for such faulty judgment. How do you keep these weapons out of the hands of such people? Laws must change, and sending someone to jail for providing access to the murder weapon is a good place to start.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:13 AM

20. I believe she was the first victim

As I stated upthread, I'm glad the tribute on The Voice included her. I think she is being unfairly demonized, and was a mother who loved her son very much.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:00 AM

47. I agree

 

with you after more information has come out. That was her son, and she probably didn't imagine he would take her life. There is a certain bond between mothers and their own child. She was very protective it seems to me of him. From want I can, she was a nice person but made some mistakes. It doesn't seem like his father spent much time with his son either. She was raising Boys, the best way she knew how probably. If she was seeking help for him and he found out, maybe that is what set him off? I would have never killed my mother and especially it seems like she was the one cared about him the most.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:53 AM

9. K&R

Everything you said.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:20 AM

23. "Women and children first."


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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)


Response to seaglass (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:46 AM

34. I believe my OP is straight forward

Women have taken a beating politically this past year. Teachers have, too. It struck me that all of the adults murdered, including Nancy Lanza, were women. The people who the Right have vilified the most this year: women, teachers, and union members are the heroes.

I just wrote basically what my OP says. I'm not being snarky either, but it's a straight forward OP. No subtext or anything.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #34)


Response to seaglass (Reply #55)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:38 PM

88. He killed his mother first in her sleep

If she was asleep, how would she know he was taking her guns? Supposedly, he shot her multiple times. He loved his mother?

Why an elementary school people have said? Maybe because most elementary school teachers, and staff, are women (mothers)? The middle and hs would have had far more male staff.

All the adults killed where women. Weren't the majority of children girls? Just a coincidence?



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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #88)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:09 PM

90. Yes, it all makes one wonder

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #88)


Response to seaglass (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:47 AM

36. some people used the Aurora shooting to attack women

unbelievable I know, but true:




others attacked feminism: the men saving women was "proof" that men are braver than women, and thus feminism's claim of equality is a slander. (no mention of the dude who sped off in his car leaving his girlfriend and child in the theater)

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Response to Enrique (Reply #36)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:51 AM

39. Yeah, I thought of that, too

I almost put that in my OP, but decided not to. There were some threads even on here where that happened, which is why I didn't include it.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #36)


Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:50 AM

37. I take your point about 2012 being a rough year for women in general.

It certainly was. But it's not really surprising or even noteworthy that all of the adults killed were women. In an elementary school, I would guess that the majority of adults present would be females. Elementary Ed doesn't seem to attract as many males, for some reason. This of course does not diminish in any way the bravery of those women, who did whatever they could to protect the children in their charge. They are all heroes, in the truest sense of the word.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:50 AM

38. The vast majority of elementary school teachers and paras are women...

...so that is not really surprising.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:51 AM

40. they were all government workers too

also the subject of political insults. Remember Romney's snark about school bus drivers?

&feature=player_embedded

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Response to Enrique (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:55 AM

42. Yup, lazy school teachers

Just greedy public employees, racking up big pensions and belonging to evil unions. Oh, and public schools and teachers suck, so lets have charter schools instead.

I hope the next time teachers go on strike, or a politician says this about any teacher, public employee, or union member, everyone remembers the women who died in Newtown.

Thanks for getting my point!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:55 AM

43. The Trifecta for the Right: women, teachers, and union members

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:00 AM

48. Back in the stone age when I was a student, about 80-85% of all teachers at my school were women

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:01 AM

49. Huh. I thought this thread was going to be about the polio workers in Pakistan.

Not to turn up the despair quotient here, but I think "men abusing women" is a description of the human condition.

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Response to Bucky (Reply #49)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:00 AM

66. Well, someone had a post claiming they were spies

Which was a nice way of shitting on that.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:29 AM

56. 03/24/1998 Jonesboro,AR 5 killed 10 injured-14 female

14 of the victims were girls or women, one boy was shot in the arm. The shooters were Mitchell Johnson 13 and Andrew Golden 11.


http://cmm.lefora.com/2010/09/11/survivors-victims-of-the-march-1998-west-side-midd/

CANDACE PORTER
"I was his (Mitchell's) girlfriend for 3 days. I thought he was nice at first,
but broke up with him several weeks before the shooting. He began
acting strange, talking big about hurting other boys. He was trouble."
 
"I wasn't afraid of him when I told him I didn't want to be his girlfriend
anymore.. because "boys don't hit girls."
 
"I thought he was just talking big again when we heard he'd made
a list of students he planned to kill."

THREATS CLASSMATES DIDN'T BELIEVE
 
The day before the school shootings -
1998 - March 23 - Mitchell Johnson makes threats about "people dying at school."
                           Reportedly, he threatens one boy with a knife.
Schoolmates "Mitchell told us "I've got "a lot of killing to do."
Schoolmates "Mitchell said he was "angry at a girl for breaking up with him."
Students "Mitchell said he had a "grudge" against teacher Shannon Wright."
 
EMMA PITTMAN
"Candace Porter was his ex-girlfriend. He had been making threats that
week that 'If you break up with me I'm going to kill you and I'm going to
kill everybody in this school. I'm sick of getting detention,' stuff like that.
We all thought he was blowing off steam."
 Andrew Golden and Mitchell Johnson bragged about "getting even" with other
 children, even killing them."
            Classmates have heard them brag before, so that no one believes them. 
 
 
Teachers "No one reported anything to us."
 
PRINCIPAL KAREN KURTNER
"We had not received any indication or advanced notification prior to this
incident. If any threat had been brought to my attention, it would have been
dealt with appropriately."

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Response to TexasProgresive (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:26 AM

71. I never realized that shooting mainly targeted girls

I remember when it happened.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #71)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:54 AM

74. Some mention was made at the time

and it just stuck in my head. I had a hard time finding the info. The link I posted is quite interesting but very sad. There's page after page from police, teachers, students, parents of students shot and the shooters. I believe the younger is no longer in prison the other has been convicted of drug,larceny and gun charges and is currently incarcerated.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #71)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:43 PM

85. Shooter at the Amish School in PA '06 targeted girls

killed 5 and wounded 5.

He definitely had a thing to kill girls.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:45 AM

57. That's why the coward went to an elementary school . . .

he knew there would most likely be few, if any, men there. He wanted to kill as many defenseless people as possible before the police arrived. These cowards go to a location where they are least likely to face any resistance.

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Response to fleur-de-lisa (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:00 AM

65. Good point

Teenagers will also fight back, if possible.

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Response to fleur-de-lisa (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:37 PM

84. and from the satellite photo, the school was pretty isolated.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:45 AM

58. I've been thinking this for days too.

All the shouting from the right about arming all teachers to prevent school attacks has been overshadowing this point.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:21 AM

67. Agreed

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:53 AM

60. Women put themselves in the line of fire (literally) but Congress won't stand up to the NRA.

Pathetic.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:59 AM

64. **sigh**

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:55 AM

68. Is there a chance Lanza had a crush on Victoria Soto or another teacher?

I wonder if there's a reason he specifically targeted that classroom. Had he approached Soto earlier, and she rebuffed him? Do we know if there was any prior contact between Lanza and any of the younger teachers? I'm trying to find a reason why the school, and that classroom in particular, were his targets.

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Response to mainer (Reply #68)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:13 AM

69. Nothing that's come out yet

All good questions.

It may have just been wholly random. We may not ever know.

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Response to mainer (Reply #68)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:22 AM

102. CNN reported yesterday that he went to that School

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:14 PM

78. pink collar jobs in elementary schools.....

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:28 PM

83. Truly Heroic actions

 

In the face of certain death the actions of these woman should never be forgotten. Like United 93 they are American Heroes.
As to why, An aggressor usually looks for what they perceive as a soft target to maximize casualties, this coward preyed on these Women and Children because he figured they would not fight back.
In terms of safety for fire arms distance, it has been determined that a person who is 25 feet away,(and closer) can wound and even kill an armed person with a number of various weapons.
For tactics against an ambush; Near- Attack the firing position, Assault through and overwhelm with fire power. Far- Return fire and escape the killing zone to safety.
Now most I know will not have the availability of weapons at their disposal, but use the distances to gage when to fight and when to flee.

The idea of the RFID is okay, but I am not a big fan of Gov't tracking in any form. There could be some electronic interlock for the gun and it's sole user. Where only that person could work the weapon. In having that, they would be able to jam the signal in defined locations and render the weapon useless in Schools, Offices, and other Public Interest Places.


God Rest these Great Woman and Innocent Children. For without them what is a man?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:49 PM

93. We respect their courage.

If 90%+ of teachers at this school were men, and thus victims of the shooter, I'm sure we'd respect their courage too.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:36 PM

99. AND... They Were TEACHERS...

 

Not long ago Chicago teachers went on strike.

The response in "progressive" Bloggo world was off the chart bizzaro and ignorant. there was plenty of talk about how teachers "don't need a union", "teachers don't deserve to make as much as electricians...", blah, blah, blah. Really, folks.. this is what it's come to?

I had to check to make sure I wasn't logged into a freeper site by mistake-- because this is the kind of bullcrap one sees from clownservatives.

Gimme a break. perhaps now that dedicated, respected teachers-- one that gave her life protecting her students, maybe teachers will get the respect they've deserved all along.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 05:43 AM

101. I mourn the women, I mourn the teachers, I mourn the children, I mourn the loss of innocence....

But yes, your point is very valid. The adult educators and staff who died were all women who gave the ultimate sacrifice. They are heroes and deserve all the respect we have to give.

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