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Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:45 AM

 

It was the white house that leaked the details of Obama's fiscal cliff offer. Not the wingers.

And by leaking details of its plan last night, the White House hoped to upstage Boehner’s Plan B announcement, said a Democratic Senate leadership aide.

“The details of the president’s plan basically one upped Boehner by showing an even bigger move to the middle on entitlements than Boehner has showed on taxes,” the aide said.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/dems-dodge-questions-on-spending-cuts-20121218


fyi to all the concerned folks saying people should just sit down & shut up & not be distracted by propaganda from the right.

and personally, i don't think it matters who leaked it: the people are against it & should make that known.

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Reply It was the white house that leaked the details of Obama's fiscal cliff offer. Not the wingers. (Original post)
HiPointDem Dec 2012 OP
dogknob Dec 2012 #1
forestpath Dec 2012 #2
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #11
forestpath Dec 2012 #24
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #25
forestpath Dec 2012 #32
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #34
villager Dec 2012 #26
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #27
villager Dec 2012 #33
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #35
villager Dec 2012 #36
newfie11 Dec 2012 #3
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #4
forestpath Dec 2012 #5
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #7
forestpath Dec 2012 #8
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #10
forestpath Dec 2012 #13
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #28
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #16
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #18
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #38
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #39
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #40
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #6
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #9
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #14
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #19
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #30
Champion Jack Dec 2012 #53
Chan790 Dec 2012 #12
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #22
rhett o rick Dec 2012 #17
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #23
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #31
rhett o rick Dec 2012 #37
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #41
rhett o rick Dec 2012 #42
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #46
rhett o rick Dec 2012 #49
rhett o rick Dec 2012 #50
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #54
rhett o rick Dec 2012 #55
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #56
rhett o rick Dec 2012 #58
SomethingFishy Dec 2012 #43
rhett o rick Dec 2012 #52
madfloridian Dec 2012 #47
BlueCaliDem Dec 2012 #48
reformist2 Dec 2012 #15
librechik Dec 2012 #20
PoliticAverse Dec 2012 #29
Romulox Dec 2012 #21
Cali_Democrat Dec 2012 #44
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #45
MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #51
democrattotheend Dec 2012 #57
ProSense Dec 2012 #59
limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #60

Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:47 AM

1. The Middle.

Ha! That's funny.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:56 AM

2. Using us retired folk like we are collateral damage. SHAMEFUL.

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:39 AM

11. Your, um, concern, is noted. eom

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:33 PM

24. It's vile of you to mock my concern about seniors. I have never seen Democrats in my life

 

act like some of the ones on this board who not only don't care if vulnerable people suffer but attack those who do care.

Even the few Republicans I know don't act that way.

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Response to forestpath (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:46 PM

25. Oh puh-lease! Spare me your poutrage.

NO ONE, not me and least of all this president, is mocking or attacking the concerns of the vulnerable people among us. We take it seriously. And if you really believe what you've written then you've misunderstood frustration for mocking because it's clear you haven't been paying attention to what this president has already done to improve the lives of the poor, the elderly, and the vulnerable.

Here's a refresher:

Barack Obama's Record on the Social Compact

1) This president enacted the largest expansion of the social safety net since Medicare. By enacting the Affordable Care Act, he established a public responsibility in paying for health insurance for those who cannot afford it, and enacted the largest health care subsidies in American history. Also, for about five months now, this president has begun to set up a U.S. sponsored health insurance public option that the Heritage Foundation is wailing could be a "robust public option". This will most likely open when the exchanges open next year October.

2) This president lengthened the life of the Medicare trust fund by eight years, also through reforms made in Obamacare. As noted above, the reforms also increased benefits in Medicare.

3) Through the Patient Protection Affordable Care Act (PPACA), the president massively expanded Medicaid by 2014 making anyone in poverty eligible for it.

4) This president signed into law the largest expansion of SCHIP, the children's health insurance program, adding 4 million children to the rolls.

5) This president expanded school lunches, Pell grants, student loans - the programs that help the less fortunate reach for opportunity and success.

I hope that cleared it up for you.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:18 PM

32. Talking points! It's what's for dinner. With a side of hot air.

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:55 PM

34. Not talking points. FACTS.

It doesn't surprise you don't know the difference.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:51 PM

26. So is, um, your snark and mockery. eom

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Response to villager (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:55 PM

27. So, um, is yours. eom

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:20 PM

33. Wow. You're an even less capable conversationalist than I first dared imagine.

n/t

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Response to villager (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:56 PM

35. I don't eagerly toss pearls to swines.

It's a waste of time.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #35)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:02 PM

36. You're right -- I should just stop replying to you.

You got.. nothin'

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:57 AM

3. Any dem voting for this is not representing the people

There is no reason for SS to even be included.
Big money has spoke again and this is not what America was suppose to be about.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:05 AM

4. Considering the high volume of anti-Obama posts and threads here these days,

maybe the owners of this site should change the name of this community to "The Anti-Obama Underground".

What part of being in the middle of negotiations do you people not get?? No wonder Liberals make up just 4% of the Democratic Party. It probably has a lot to do with that myopic perspective Liberals are genetically inflicted with.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:12 AM

5. "You people"?! Hmmm, now who do you sound like....

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:24 AM

7. A Democrat. Clear now? Whining and criticizing Obama . . . what does that sound like?

TeaBaggers.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:32 AM

8. Baggers are concerned about us retired people Obama wants to hurt? You must be delusional.

 

You are the bagger. You want SS cut, just like they do.

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Response to forestpath (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:38 AM

10. Hyperbole much?

I'm not here criticizing the president because I'm not a TeaBagger. I'm here criticizing the House and Republicans because I'm a DEMOCRAT and refuse to give them a pass. Shouldn't you? I mean, IF you're a Democrat, that is.

So before you go tossing out accusations of me being delusional, after that baseless accusation, it would do you good to take a trip to your bathroom and have a good look in the mirror.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:48 AM

13. DEMOCRATS don't throw seniors under the bus to get a "deal." Real Democrats that is.

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:56 PM

28. NO ONE has thrown seniors "under the bus". Not in the real world, that is. eom

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:58 AM

16. The only conceivable motive for telling the public to shut up about potential cuts to social

 

security is to help enable those cuts.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:47 AM

18. That might be true . . .

but good thing that's not what I'm doing.

A little less harping on the process of negotiation, and a little more understanding that this president is negotiating with our best interests in mind. Why? Because of his own modest background.

When he graduated Harvard, he could have gone to Wall Street to make a six-figure income for himself. He didn't. Instead, he remembered his mother's altruistic work and returned to the ghettos of Chicago to help the people there, taking a $11K per year salary.

If anybody here thinks he's going to sell out the poor, the vulnerable, or the elderly, it's because they want to believe that, not because of anything he's done. Because all they have to do is look at his policies for the first two years to know how wrongheaded they are.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:05 PM

38. he doesn't come from a modest background.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:16 PM

39. Actually, he does.

And that's been proven as a fact.

Single mother home, raised for a time on food stamps, had to loan money to get into Harvard and were it not for his grandmother who worked at a local bank, would have never gotten it. I'd say that's pretty modest.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:20 PM

40. no, certain facts have been publicized, others haven't so much.

 

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:21 AM

6. the white house leaked it. i guess they wanted it to be made public, which means people will

 

discuss it.

maybe obama leaked it to rally the troops against it to give him more ammunition in the negotiations.

who are you to question the white house's action in publicizing it?

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:35 AM

9. The National Journal is NO friend to Democrats.

Why is anything they publish - especially when it's anti-Obama - being taken seriously here?

Do you actually believe President Obama, considering his background and all he's already done for the average American (health care reform, the public option, strengthening Medicare, expanding Medicaid, expanding Pell Grants, etc.), would touch Social Security? Really?

If what you contend is what's happening (i.e. President Obama "leaking" this info in order to stir debate), shouldn't it be to whip up the American people not to criticize him, but to criticize the Republicans in the House for their petty games? I seriously doubt his plan was to have people point their arms at him instead of at Boehner where our fire rightfully belongs.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:50 AM

14. Look, neither party lets the public in on the secret backstage kabuki. I don't know who leaked

 

& frankly it doesn't make a damn bit of difference unless the backstage drama is so byzantine & orwellian that it's beyond human comprehension.

You say obama wants to keep SS as is. Fine. Then having the public riled up about cuts & jamming the lines to the wh & their reps helps his hand -- it doesn't hurt it. If the republicans keep insisting on cuts HE CAN MAKE THEM OWN IT.

And if he has to endure some aspersions along the way, well, he's a big boy who signed up for the job of president, so presumably he can take it.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:48 AM

19. True. 100%. eom

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:06 PM

30. I bet GOP Members of Congress are getting a ton of calls and emails, too....

...and except for the Tea-Nazi extremists, I doubt seriously if any other Republican will go along with cuts to Social Security and other earned benefits.

This was a trial balloon, nothing more.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #30)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:34 AM

53. Bingo

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:44 AM

12. Maybe Obama should stop acting like a Republican?



It not even the lesser of two evils at this point, he doesn't represent me. I'm increasingly of the opinion that I should stay home as I don't care whose RW policy gets enacted, it's still RW fiscal policy and it's destroying America.

I'll stop criticizing the President when he stops governing like a moderate Republican on economic issues.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:03 PM

22. I seriously doubt he could do anything to "represent you". He's not pure enough,

based on your hyperbolic post.

President Obama is NOT governing like a moderate Republican. You, much like the GOP, underestimate this president at your peril.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:46 AM

17. Dont make this about Pres Obama. It's about saving SS and Medicare.

What part of dont touch SS dont you get. There is no excuse to cut SS or Medicare or Medicaid. Cut defense. That's what the American people want.

So if you are in the center, tell us what you would like to see. Please.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:17 PM

23. Hey Rhett . . . whose rhetoric are you spewing now?

Cuz it ain't the truth. I really don't need to listen to any anti-Obamanite rhetoric about what this president thinks of the social safety net, and what his commitments are to it. This president's record speaks for itself.

Here are some FACTS:

Barack Obama's Record on the Social Compact

A refresher for those who so easily forget:

1) This president enacted the largest expansion of the social safety net since Medicare. By enacting the Affordable Care Act, he established a public responsibility in paying for health insurance for those who cannot afford it, and enacted the largest health care subsidies in American history. Also, for about five months now, this president has begun to set up a U.S. sponsored health insurance public option that the Heritage Foundation is wailing could be a "robust public option". This will most likely open when the exchanges open next year October.

2) This president lengthened the life of the Medicare trust fund by eight years, also through reforms made in Obamacare. As noted above, the reforms also increased benefits in Medicare.

3) Through the Patient Protection Affordable Care Act (PPACA), the president massively expanded Medicaid by 2014 making anyone in poverty eligible for it.

4) This president signed into law the largest expansion of SCHIP, the children's health insurance program, adding 4 million children to the rolls.

5) This president expanded school lunches, Pell grants, student loans - the programs that help the less fortunate reach for opportunity and success.

So, again, how do you consolidate the above proven facts with your anti-Obama rhetoric that he would touch social security unless it's to strengthen it just as he's strengthened Medicare and Medicaid? It doesn't make sense, does it?

And I'm NOT the center. I am, however, a pragmatic progressive. I want to move this country forward and I'm not about to cut my nose to spite my face just because I get my feelings hurt by something that's reported as truth by some rightwing news source. And neither should any Democrat worth their salt.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:15 PM

31. That can't be true! I know this because other DU posters are saying the President is a traitor to...

....all Dem causes and programs!!

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:22 PM

37. I didnt say a word bad about the president. Your attempts to make this about hating Obama

isnt helping. There is absolutely no excuse to mess with Social Security at this time. It has nothing to do with the deficit and nothing to do with the stupid make-believe cliff.

I am an Obama supporter. Cutting SS, Medicare and Medicaid isnt moving forward. I dont think pragmatic means giving in to terrorist demands. The Republicans dont represent the American people, they are out and out terrorists and must be treated as such. We have been compromising for decades and losing more and more each time.

My red line is DONT FUCKING TOUCH SOCIAL SECURITY unless you want to raise the cap.

You give in and Bush will have won. He will get the last laugh.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:27 PM

41. I doubt the president is going to "touch" social security unless it's to raise

the income cap (as you suggested) - which is sorely needed. Also, means testing (using McCain as an example since even though he is a multimillionaire married to a billionaire heiress, draws social security as well although he's lived off of the government teat for as long as he was an adult) wouldn't be a bad thing.

Social security is supposed to be for those seniors who need this income. It's a program to help the most vulnerable among us, which includes SSI. I seriously, seriously doubt that President Obama would do anything to harm those who rely on our programs. Considering his track record, I'm 100% sure he won't.

And thank you for correcting me on the fact that you still an Obama supporter. I am, too.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:52 PM

42. I sure hope you are correct. I hate just waiting to see where this will go

w/o speaking up.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #42)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:31 AM

46. Here's a link

to a very good article about the chained CPI thing, and what the president is doing. It's by an ex-DUer who got tired of the anti-Obama rhetoric on this site and has left to open his own blog. He's an incredibly smart young man and although he's deeply disenchanted with the Jane Hamsher/Glenn Greenwald group of "Liberals", he's a Democrat through and through.

http://www.thepeoplesview.net/2012/12/dear-liberals-chained-cpi-is-not-cut-to.html

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #46)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:14 AM

49. I read the article. Thanks for the link. But it sounds too good to be true.

Seems the argument is that if we give up a tiny decrease in Social Security benefits it will not only strengthen SS but also (from the article in your link:

" Higher taxes on the rich: The president, as his counteroffer, has asked for tax rates to go up for at least those making more than $400,000, in response to Speaker Boehner's offer of letting the rates go up on incomes over $1 million.

The proposal would also cap the value of itemized deductions to 28%, basically preventing the rich from taking a greater percent of their incomes in deductions than middle class families.

This, along with the president's proposal to raise capital gains and dividend rates, as well as increasing the estate tax, should bring us pretty close to $1.2 trillion
.
No changes to Medicare benefits.

Extended unemployment benefits and refundable tax credits for the poor and the middle class.

Infrastructure investment.

A two-year extension in the debt limit, avoiding another hostage crisis in a couple of months."


And the Republicans would buy that? What do they get out of it?

Why are they willing to give up so much for a change in SS that will STRENGTHEN it?

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #46)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:19 AM

50. Here is an alternate view and not from "liberals". See link in message.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #50)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:26 PM

54. I have canceled my subscription to The Nation be*cause* of their misrepresenting

President Obama's stance on just about everything from the NDAA (Congress' bill, veto-proof, defense spending bill the TeaBaggers attached the extension to U.E. benefits to and dared the president to not sign it) to "cuts" (actually, savings to us) in Medicare. When none of their frightening predictions panned out, I couldn't trust them anymore.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #54)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:49 PM

55. So that's the discussion. Now we are talking about how you dont trust The Nation?

We were discussing whether we should cut Social Security benefits to get all that other shit the Republicans promise. Are you thinking that all people that have articles in The Nation are some how anti-Obama?

What about the NARFE argument? Or the myriad of others out there?

I commented that the link you provided painted the picture that the deal was to strengthen SS by cutting benefits (just a little) and the Republicans were going to cave. Sorry but that doesnt ring true.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #55)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 12:16 AM

56. I always, always consider the source.

I don't trust The Nation. Period.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #56)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 12:26 AM

58. Cant argue with logic like that. nm

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:05 PM

43. Wow you are just fighting a wave of Obama haters..

So many that you have to wonder how in the fuck he won the election if we all hate him so much.

People kept their mouths shut during the campaign. We went out and worked for this administration and many of us voted for him in spite of serious reservations. We kept our reservations to ourselves and now it's time to hold the man and his administration accountable.

The truth is, if Obama makes any cuts to S.S. or Medicare you and the "defenders" will come up with reasons why "it could have been worse".

Why is it you can't understand that people are angry that we have to take money from seniors and the sick in order to make sure we have plenty of drones and killing machines?

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #43)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:30 AM

52. If someone has to resort to calling names like "Obama hater", then they obvioulsly dont have

a good argument and are trying to close down discussion with ridicule and bullying. I think some are here to just stir up trouble. I put them on ignore.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:00 AM

47. I believe all leaders should be kept under a microscope.

And we should not be hesitant to criticize. I have never seen a time when there was such a protective group around a president. The president is not to be seen of as Godlike.

Actually making fun of those who point out problems with an administration's policies is counter-productive.

Sure will hurt the party.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #47)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:00 AM

48. I've been hearing/reading the same scaremongering before the election

and years leading up to it. It never materialized. President Obama heard it, too. That might be the reason why he decided not to sit idly by as former Democratic presidential candidates have, and cross their fingers hoping he hadn't pissed off "the base" all too much and that they'd vote for him. His campaign aggressively sought and succeeded at broadening the base by adding new voters to the rolls, so excuse me if I'm not that worried.

That said, of course it's healthy to criticize the president, but it has to be done as constructive criticism and it has to be done based on the facts, not rumor. Unfortunately, all I've been reading around here is FiredogBagger (the Left's version of TeaBaggers) howling as they run around with hair on fire by the tiniest suspicion they're being "sold out". It stopped briefly just before the elections, but it's gone full-bore once again. These same people wailed that President Obama was cutting Medicare and Medicaid. "Caver in Chief!" "Capitulater in Chief!" "He's sold us out! Where's single-payer?!?" (although he has NEVER campaigned on it). When after their heads were scalded and they took a moment to breathe, what happened? President Obama not only lengthened both Medicare and Medicaid, he strengthened them both.

That kind of panic is not constructive. That's DEstructive.

To be honest, I've never seen such anti-Democratic president lamenting as I've seen here since President Obama got elected in 2008, and I'm not alone in this view.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:51 AM

15. Exactly. The proposal is out there and we need to voice our opposition.

Ideally, we need to force Obama to reiterate what he just campaigned on: tax rate increases on $250K + incomes, and close off loopholes that let them pay lower tax rates for "rich people" types of income (i.e., capital gains, dividends, carried interest.)

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:49 AM

20. yeah. That's how trial balloons work.

They are gauging the base's reaction. I think their balloon got popped.

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Response to librechik (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:59 PM

29. Exactly. A baloon is floated and if it doesn't go down in flames it is adopted. n/t

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:50 AM

21. "Trial balloon"... nt

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:09 PM

44. This could actually be one big chess move from Obama. No joke.

Perhaps Obama never had any intention of cutting social security, but released his "offer" to make it seem like he was really giving away a lot and he knew Boehner wouldn't accept it anyways so he's painting Boehner as being unreasonable.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #44)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:11 PM

45. maybe. in that case having people riled up about the possible cuts just strengthens his hand.

 

it won't be only democrats calling their reps. republican voters don't want cuts to ss anymore than dems do.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #44)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:21 AM

51. It's Whack-A-Mole - moles being the 99%

 

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #44)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 12:17 AM

57. That's been my theory for a few days

And today's WSJ article indicates that I might have been right.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #44)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 12:27 AM

59. That's

"Perhaps Obama never had any intention of cutting social security, but released his "offer" to make it seem like he was really giving away a lot and he knew Boehner wouldn't accept it anyways so he's painting Boehner as being unreasonable."

...exactly what seems to have happened. From the OP:

“The details of the president’s plan basically one upped Boehner by showing an even bigger move to the middle on entitlements than Boehner has showed on taxes,” the aide said.

Boehner had no where to go, and the President's offer wasn't one he would ever accept.

After a dramatic week, Social Security is again off the table
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022052075

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 02:24 PM

60. k/r

people should say what they think.

Blind trust in any politician or party is dumb.

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